How many use a TS with zero safety features?

[Bobby O'Neal]

I'm one that has this issue. I have an older Craftsman saw that was a hand me down. No guard, no splitter, knife etc. I dont know if it ever had a guard. This is the saw I learned on and I never feel the least bit nervous about a cut. I am extremely safe when working. But I found myself wondering how many others are in this boat? Does it bother you? If you got a new saw with all the safety bells and whistles, would you keep them all in place?

[John TenEyck]

The saws in my shop both have guards on them and I use them religiously. Sort of feels like driving without my seat belt if they aren't on. However, my jobsite saw has no guard, only because I bought it used and whoever owned it prior to me took it off and lost it, and I've been too cheap to buy one for it. But it scares the begeebers out of me every time I use it, so I think I need to pony up the money for the guard. In the meantime, it has my absolute undivided attention whenever I turn it on. Regardless of how careful you are, accidents can, and do, happen.

I think I'll order that guard today.

[David Hostetler]

I chose a Ryobi BT3100 over a slew of 1950s / 1960s vintage Rockwells etc... because of the Riving Knife. I have had kickback on a table saw that was not splitter or RK equipped, and it scared the snot out of me... I am unwilling to use a saw that lacks one now. My guard is a Shark Guard 10.4 (4" dust port model). I will be upgrading to the new, narrower model soon as I want to give Lee's new design a try.

Now having said that, I am not sure all safety tech is worth it's money. And please I don't want the flame junk that comes along with saying this, so if it offends please just hold your tongue as it were... But I don't know if the SawStop is a reliable technology long term. Mostly because it hasn't been around all that long, so very little history on the technology. I do have some philisophical problems with SS inventor as well, but that is a different story all together... IF I had the $$ to buy one, and could afford to replace it if it didn't pan out well, sure I would grab a SawStop... But I don't have that sort of funding...

[Brian Kent]

I won't work on a table saw without a splitter. The kickbacks punched me in the gut and nearly broke a couple of fingers. With a splitter, no problem. I am still looking forward to getting a high quality guard that I would be willing to use.

[Larry Fox]

I use a splitter whenever it is possible to do so for a particular cut. I also have a shark guard with built-in splitter that I also use whenever possible. When I can't use the shark (too narrow of a cut or something like that) I have a Biesemeyer snap-in splitter. I also use a magnetic featherboard whenever I can. I really don't want a kickback.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I didn't mean to imply at all that I'm against safety equipment. I would love to have a riving knife. If i am being totally honest, I dont know that I'd use a guard if I had one, though. There's something about not being able to clearly see the cut that doesn't sit right with me.

[David Kumm]

I have always felt that traditional ripping of about 4" or less seemed more dangerous for me with the overhead guard in place. I prefer the grr ripper set tight against the fence with my hands way above the blade. The guard always seems to be in my way. I don't think I am correct but that is the way I have always felt. I always use a knife or splitter and most importantly only rip good dry stock that doesn't seem too weird. Anything questionable goes to the bandsaw. My left hand caught a kickback 15 years ago and still doesn't close into a fist without some effort so kickback scares me to death. It is just that trying to use a push stick between the guard and the fence on narrow boards seems uncomfortable and distracting, like not using a zero clearance throatplate and watching the offcut fall into the opening. Dave

[Ryan Mooney]

Yup, in fact I'd say mine has multiple "negative safety" features. Its also a crapsman, but of the scariest sort (the late 90's super light tin can jobsite saw). The insert isn't level or even close to flush (so boards will catch on the outfeed side of it - the support system pretty much excludes using a shop made insert as they are two little screw tabs that don't provide squat for support) ?guards? yeah right (well it had a guard of sorts but it was so thin/poorly mounted that it would oooze over and bind like mad so that seemed worse than no guard at all).. Its light enough compared to its power that I've actually had kickback move the saw which was absolutely beyond terrifying when it starts to kick over with that blade spinning at you :eek:. I've "gotten by" with it for a few years (it was a gift), but have always been somewhat afraid when using it and do a lot of things the hard way to work around touching it.

A replacement and _vast_ upgrade is en-route for end of July (not-yet-a-gloat) :D. I'm planning on salvaging the motor out of this one for some other purpose because I don't want to feel responsible if someone else got it and hurt themselves.

Having said that I've also used older saws w/o riving knives/guards/etc.. and didn't feel nearly as scared around them as I do with this saw, mostly because they were more stable/better built and I could control things better. A riving knife makes me feel better for sure because it solves >50% of kickback cases. Most cases where a guard would help I mostly figure "your hand/body part shouldn't have been there anyway". Note that this doesn't discount the value of guards by any means, but even with them I try to avoid getting in a spot where they might have a chance to help (use the guard if at all possible but work like it isn't there).

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The only time my guard comes off the table saw is when I am using my dado blade.

Pain in the butt? Yeah.....but I am used to it.

[Rod Sheridan]

I didn't mean to imply at all that I'm against safety equipment. I would love to have a riving knife. If i am being totally honest, I dont know that I'd use a guard if I had one, though. There's something about not being able to clearly see the cut that doesn't sit right with me.

Hi Bobby, I owned a cabinet saw with an all metal guard, it was a General 650.

When I worked in industry, most of the machines had guards that you couldn't see through, who cares, there's nothing to see in that area.

When you are ripping, your eyes need to be on the fence/wood interaction, not on the saw blade. I guarantee that it's still cutting even if you don't watch it.

This isn't Schroedingers cat we're talking about, it's wood machinery.

When you are crosscutting, use a mitre gauge or sled with a flip stop for length, then watch the mitre gauge or sled and wood interaction, no point watching the cut, you don't need to see it.

Do yourself a favour and buy a splitter or riving knife, and a good overhead guard with dust collection. You deserve to be safe................Rod.

[David Hostetler]

I didn't mean to imply at all that I'm against safety equipment. I would love to have a riving knife. If i am being totally honest, I dont know that I'd use a guard if I had one, though. There's something about not being able to clearly see the cut that doesn't sit right with me.

Then you REALLY ought to try a Shark Guard. Most guards are hard to see through, the SG is nice and clear, easily seen through, and has the added benefit of additional dust collection port...

[Kent A Bathurst]

I guarantee that it's still cutting even if you don't watch it. This isn't Schroedingers cat we're talking about, it's wood machinery..

OK, it's Friday, and we can now give the Cleverest Line of the Week award to Rod.

Wish I had thought of that hook, Rod. Well played. In fact, I can guarantee you that I will steal that one for conversations. ;)

On the original topic - my 13 yr old Uni came with the classic Mickey-Mouse OEM POS guard, splitter, fingered pawls, etc. That thing disappeared 12 yrs 364 days ago. The guard itself - that one, or a better replacement - does nothing for me personally, to be honest, but someday, the dust collection potential might drive me that direction. Even though I always stand out of the line of fire, 2 kickbacks in 13 years means I should really get an aftermarket quick-disconnect splitter, though. I do a lot of dado work on the saw.

[Robert Barrett]

I'm one that has this issue. I have an older Craftsman saw that was a hand me down. No guard, no splitter, knife etc. I dont know if it ever had a guard. This is the saw I learned on and I never feel the least bit nervous about a cut. I am extremely safe when working. But I found myself wondering how many others are in this boat? Does it bother you? If you got a new saw with all the safety bells and whistles, would you keep them all in place?

My saw is the same, it is the one that I learned on and have never used another with guards and riving knife, even the one that my brother bought off a school didn't have any of the safety features.
I don't feel that I am in any real danger, always keeping in mind that I need to stand out of the line of the blade and generally don't cut anything less than an inch in width, that puts my fingers a little too close to the blade. I also use push sticks if I think that I am putting my self in harms way.

In my 30 year of working, I have met many people that have put their fingers in different types of machines, ((I am a metal-fabricator/welder by trade and have access to all manner of finger eating machines 95% of which have no guarding at all. They have safety features, but not a lot that will stop you from getting hurt) and after talking to them and questioning their state of mind, it turned out that they nearly always were worried about and thinking about other things, Not what they actually doing at the time.

I applaud all who have the patient enough to work around all the guards and safey features, and don't in any way encourage anyone to not use these safety features if they are not comfortable doing so.

Robert

[glenn bradley]

I am extremely safe when working.

As Brian, Larry and others stated, it is virtually impossible to use a tablesaw safely without a splitter. Make yourself a ZCI and spend a whole $20 on an MJ Splitter setup. Getting your hand pulled into a saw is not the time to say "I shoulda . . . ".

[John McClanahan]

Ryan, rather than scrapping out the lightweight saw, get a sanding disk for it to replace the blade and use it as a disk sander.

John

[Bobby O'Neal]

Hi Bobby, I owned a cabinet saw with an all metal guard, it was a General 650.

When I worked in industry, most of the machines had guards that you couldn't see through, who cares, there's nothing to see in that area.

When you are ripping, your eyes need to be on the fence/wood interaction, not on the saw blade. I guarantee that it's still cutting even if you don't watch it.

This isn't Schroedingers cat we're talking about, it's wood machinery.

When you are crosscutting, use a mitre gauge or sled with a flip stop for length, then watch the mitre gauge or sled and wood interaction, no point watching the cut, you don't need to see it.

Do yourself a favour and buy a splitter or riving knife, and a good overhead guard with dust collection. You deserve to be safe................Rod.


Great points, Rod. There's some great correction there. I don't watch the blade during rips anyway! As for my miter gauge (Osborne) and crosscut sled (home made) I do tend to watch the blade. Though, I agree, its not necessary. I tend to watch it because I have the work piece in my hands against the jig, so I dont worry about that particular relationship. I'll need to look in to accessories for this saw.

[Bill Petersen]

I'm one of those guys that uses zero safety equipment on my table saw. I should qualify that by saying that it's a Craftsman contractor saw and the only "safety" equipment it came with was a totally useless guard with splitter. My current safety equipment consists of a great respect for a spinning blade and the possibility of a kickback. If I start to saw a piece of wood that in any way seems to have internal stress and wants to pinch the blade I stop and take it to the bandsaw. I don't use the saw if I'm tired, upset, or angry. If I have a drink of alcohol I don't touch a piece of power equipment of any type until the next day. The only exception to this is using my computer to post to a blog after a drink and that is dangerous enough, I can tell you. If I had a saw with easily usable and functional safety equipment I would use it. I see a new Delta in my future.

[Doug Shepard]

The only thing I've got on my PM66 is a zero clearance insert which I always use unless I've got the dado stack on the saw. The guard is never on. I'm embarassed to say that I've had a MJ splitter for years but never got around to installing it on the ZC insert. I do have the saw dialed in very well with a TS Aligner with a few thou of clearance on the back end of the fence so there's no pinching/kickback issues. Gripper and/or pushsticks, and sometimes featherboards do get used regularly and I feel very safe and comfortable with this saw. My previous C-man contractor saw was a true kickback generating machine that scared the bejeezus out me. No way I could get that saw tuned in so that it didn't have issues.

[Bill Davis]

I'm in that boat. No. Probably not.

[Rod Sheridan]

Kent, glad I could provide some amusement on a Friday, feel free to use that line..............Rod.

[David Keller NC]

I have a early 2000's Unisaw. There's little arguing that the guard that came with the saw was non-functional, and I do use the saw without a blade guard. But I would never use it without a splitter, anti-kickback pawls and a featherboard. Also, I suspect that I'm more cautious than most - my hand and fingers never get within 18" of the blade - ever.

[ed vitanovec]

I use the riving knife and guard all the time, they come off for dado cuts only. I like zero clearance inserts, the slots on the original inserts were to wide and thin strips would get stuck at times. I used to cut without a guard in place and I would be careful, I brushed the blade once with my fingers and was very lucky I did not have to go to the hospital. No matter how careful you are, a slight kickback can push your hand into the blade....It is not worth the risk.

Regards!
Ed

[Alan Schwabacher]

I use a saw with a riving knife now, but I got my first saw used without any guard or splitter. I made a splitter from a piece of metal and mounted it to the bracket inside the saw before I ever used it. I made a set of various sized splitters to swap in and out so it would behave as a riving knife. I timed it once, and it took something like 23 seconds to change the splitter, including hanging up the wrench.

[Kent E. Matthew]

I have been on many job sites. I have not seen one table saw with a guard on them. My saw at home doesn't have a guard. I've had a couple of kick backs on the unisaw at work. I make it a habit to take a half step to the left so any kick back will go by without contact. I do make use of a home made push stick though.

[Bruce Page]

I don't use a guard but I always use my drop in splitter when ripping. I also use Grippers, push sticks, etc. To keep my fingers well away from the blade.

[Don Morris]

My father in law was a Swedish cabinet maker and another member of the family was a woodworker too. I forget the other members name but remember him because of the fact he had less than the correct number of fingers. Use the TS without ALL of the above safety devices...no way. There are guys who have lived maybe to a hundred smoking a pack of cigarets a day, but the odds aren't with you.

[Ryan Mooney]

Ryan, rather than scrapping out the lightweight saw, get a sanding disk for it to replace the blade and use it as a disk sander.

John

John, Thats one option under consideration and has the advantage that the table is useful as well (although I'd probably cut a chunk off of the "back" side to save the space.. and rebuild the cabinet and... heh). The other option under consideration is to use the motor to drive a homemade drum sander. Time will tell depending on how ambitious I end up feeling.

[Gene Howe]

I agree Rob. Sometimes safety issues, especially when lawyers and/or a government get involved, can result in what Schroedinger referred to as Verschränkung.
Keep it simple and use your noodle! The best safety tool in the shop is your ability to THINK.
To the OP's post, my saw has a splitter and a ZCI. I'd love a overhead mounted guard and dust collection chute combo.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I suppose if ZCIs count, I have made a few of those.

[Jim Foster]

What guard/saw?


The only time my guard comes off the table saw is when I am using my dado blade.

Pain in the butt? Yeah.....but I am used to it.

[Jim Foster]

I have the PM66. What's the MJ splitter?


The only thing I've got on my PM66 is a zero clearance insert which I always use unless I've got the dado stack on the saw. The guard is never on. I'm embarassed to say that I've had a MJ splitter for years but never got around to installing it on the ZC insert. I do have the saw dialed in very well with a TS Aligner with a few thou of clearance on the back end of the fence so there's no pinching/kickback issues. Gripper and/or pushsticks, and sometimes featherboards do get used regularly and I feel very safe and comfortable with this saw. My previous C-man contractor saw was a true kickback generating machine that scared the bejeezus out me. No way I could get that saw tuned in so that it didn't have issues.

[Jim Foster]

I have the PM66 with no guards. I'm a little embarrassed, but it is what it is. I'd like to get a riving knife, but have not seen one for this saw. The original guard seemed like a real pain in the #$$ to use, so it's not used. I would also like to get some overhead dust collection, because the collection at the base is pretty useless in its current state.

For safety (and I'm not opposed to more safety) I use roller stands whenever the situation warrants and I use push sticks quite often. Another important safety issue is safety glasses, which are always on, when the saw is on. I also keep the blades sharp and clean, so it cuts at maximum performance. I also keep the top clear of waste so something does not vibrate into the blade and kick back (learned the hard way a few years ago) My saw used to be on a concrete floor and there was no vibration, now I'm on a second story wooden floor and the saw vibrate more than I like when it's on.

[Richard Galloway]

I have an Old Rockwell Delta saw that came with a guard and kick back pawls, but they caused more issues than they ever prevented and were tossed Years ago. I keep the blade just above the boards, pay Very close attention to what I'm doing, making sure that everything is set properly and clear before I start a cut and have never had an issue in the 30 years I've been using it. Would I keep the guards, etc. on a new saw? Don't know, have never ran a saw that had them to compare. The Idea is good, but would have to see how they actually Worked. To me, a guard that causes problems is more dangerous than no guards and no problems.

[Brian Kent]

I keep reading about POS splitters. It turns out someone actually makes them on purpose. PoE makes a high power splitter called the POS 4000.
http://global.level1.com/Business-Products/PoE-(Power-over-Ethernet)/Splitters/POS-4000/743.html

Up til now I thought that was a joke!

Here's some more:
http://www.allthingspos.com/axis/power-over-ethernet.htm

Here are some more products:
· POS Software
· POS Systems
· POS Printers
· POS Touchscreens

And Raisecom makes Passive Optical Splitters. How can I mount one of these POS splitters on my grizzly?
http://www.raisecom-tech.com.ua/html/Products/GEPON/Splitter/pos_splitter_20090924_en.pdf

Just askin'

Brian

[Chris Kennedy]

I have a Craftsman zipcode, and I pulled the guard/splitter off almost immediately because I couldn't get it to align very well. I worked that way for a couple of years, but didn't like it. Since then, I have installed a MicroJig splitter and an Excalibur overarm guard.

Cheers,

Chris

[Chip Lindley]

Imma ZERO guy! I've grown accustomed to my own "system" over 30 years, feeling it important to see where the blade is at all times. The exception to that is, I enjoy using an Exaktor overhead guard on the PM66 only because it has good dust collection and keeps sawdust out of my face.

[Gary Hodgin]

The only time my guard comes off the table saw is when I am using my dado blade.

Pain in the butt? Yeah.....but I am used to it.

Same here. I've had a table saw for about 12 years and didn't use the safety equipment until 4 or 5 years ago. I wish it wasn't so much trouble to remove for dadoes but I always put it back on with the dado blade comes off.

[Tony Bilello]

When I first started woodworking about 30 years ago, I got tired of taking the safety guard on and off every time I make dadoes or if I want to actually see what I am cutting. I still don't use any today. I have several different types and styles of ripping and cutting to keep my hands/fingers away from the blade.

[Brian Kent]

Jim, the MJ Splitter is a low profile removable piece of metal covered with plastic (original are plastic only). Very easy to insert and remove from the top. I consider a splitter or riving knife to be extremely important. Even if I was 100% smart and safe and consistent in my technique on the table saw, wood moves. A rip-cut board can pinch and twist on the back of the blade and voila - 160 mph projectile.

I have used the plastic splitters for years and will soon buy the metal and plastic splitters.

[Ole Anderson]

I have had my Grizz about a dozen years. Started out using the guard as often as possible, then started getting lazy and often it got used without a guard. Then I got a kickback that put a good sized bruise on my belly. So I made a splitter for my ZCI. Then I went back to using the guard, realizing the best part of the guard was the "splitter" that held the guard in place. Once the lumber passed the splitter, no way was it going to kickback. Granted it is no riving knife, but it sure is better than nothing. Now I have a Sharkguard with a 3" DC hose. It stays on for virtually every cut possible.

I see that on most home improvement shows, whether inside a shop or at a jobsite, the only safety gear you MIGHT see is a pair of safety glasses. Not a good example.

[Carl Beckett]

+1 on the zero clearance inserts. I have a thumb that clicks every time I bend it, due to a front dive on a test cut where the board wasnt supported around the blade and thus kicked back. I was standing 'out of the line' as a matter of habit, but the board kicked into my thumb/socket and did a number on it. (emergency room, two pins in the thumb and a cast for 8 weeks). I healed and have full use of all the digits still (didnt get into the blade, only kickback damage)

I am fortunate and feel lucky that it wasnt worse. But now take an extra moment to be sure that the throat opening isnt excessive. (meaning, the FIRST thing you should do is throw away the stock insert that comes with most saws, and buy some blanks that cut to fit the blade width)

Im also a big fan of a splitter. And keeping the saw tuned so it cuts well (fence and blade square and in alignment, minimize binding, sharp blade, etc).

[Tony Bilello]

"I was standing 'out of the line' as a matter of habit, but the board kicked into my thumb/socket and did a number on it"
Standing out of line might very well be the reason for the kickback. Preventing kickback is a delicate balance between seeing what you are doing on both sides of the blade and pushing the board straight with a certain amount of pressure against the fence. You must stand where you have the best balance and control with both hands and have the best visability. In most cases, this will put you in line with the blade. If you are afraid of kickback and purposely stand to the side, this will most likely be the cause of the kickback that you are trying to avoid.

BTW, just because I dont use any protection does not necessarily mean that I am an advocate of it. It is just the way I work.

[Brian W Evans]

I had a General contractor's saw that I used without the OEM splitter or guard. I added an MJ splitter, ZCI's, two Grripers, and a stance to the left of the kickback area. No problems. Now I have a Bosch 4100 with a riving knife. Because the guard and prawls are so easy to put on and take off, I sometimes use them. Otherwise I use the ZCI's, Grrippers, etc. If I had the room I would add an overhead guard/dust collector.

Even with all of this safety equipment, I think the thing that keeps me safest is the attitude that nothing I can build in my shop is worth any kind of injury. There have been many times when I could feel my self-imposed deadlines creeping up or wanted to just get one more thing done before calling it a night and I was tempted to take a shortcut. I ALWAYS walk away at that point.

Presented entirely without comment: NPR had a story yesterday about sawstop technology and the consumer product safety commission's new table saw safety regulations. Find it here (http://www.npr.org/2011/05/25/136617222/advocates-urge-lawmakers-to-make-table-saws-safer).

Edit: I would also add that I am a big advocate of featherboards, jigs, fences, etc., to the point that I think I go too far out of my way to make/use them sometimes. They definitely keep me safe, though (and accurate).

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......... the MJ Splitter. A rip-cut board can pinch and twist on the back of the blade and voila - 160 mph projectile.......... the metal and plastic splitters.

Mr Kent: 2 things

1] I don't know what cave I have been living in, but I had not been aware of the MJ splitter. Old dogs can learn new tricks.......at that price, and ease of connect/disconnect, my MJ set [the metal + plastic version] will be here in a couple days.
2] Your TS speed must be the Spinal Tap version - it goes to 11 :p. A 10" dia blade @ 3000 rpm is tip speed of 89.2 MPH......but I don't think you were talking literally, and when a chunk o' stuff is coming at you 90 is pretty darn fast enough :D :D

Gratzi

Kent

[Brian Kent]

Thanks Kent. I'll go with your 89.2 mph figure. I was just passing on what I had heard, disregarding things like math and accuracy.

But speaking of 160 mph, did you know that 91.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot!?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Thanks Kent. I'll go with your 89.2 mph figure. I was just passing on what I had heard, disregarding things like math and accuracy.

But speaking of 160 mph, did you know that 91.5% of all statistics are made up on the spot!?


Which spot?:confused::rolleyes: