How do you justify...?

[John Hulett]

Being fairly new to WW, I find myself in a slightly funky position - I've spent a good deal of money thusfar on tools, but still have a fair amout left to go before having a semi-complete shop. The major stuff I would still need include a Jointer, a Planer and a Bandsaw. It's difficult to justify the need for these items to LOML.

I'm sure there's a fair mix of folks here at SMC - from those who make their living at WW, to others like myself. So, I guess my question is, how do/did you convince LOYL that you needed purchase the tools you wanted/needed for the next project(s). Did you go with "starter" machines, knowing you would one day need to upgrade - for example bought a Grizzly 6" jointer, then years later went to the DJ20? And even then, how did you convince LOYL that the upgrade was justified? I can just hear her now... "... but I thought you already had a jointer - why do you need another one?"

[Jack Hogoboom]

John,

I co-opted my wife. Most of my big tools she purchased for me as birthday and/or Christmas gifts. Hard for her to say know to a new machine when she just got a nice piece of jewelry. :D

When push comes to shove, I am not above hiding stuff from her. A wise man once said that it is easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

Of course, I'm on wife No. 2 so take what I say with a BIG grain of salt. :rolleyes:

Good luck with the LOYL.

Jack

[Tom Saurer]

I'm kind off a practical guy. If I don't need it or it won't make my life easier then I don't get it. I simply don't buy because of the cool factor. I'm a marketers worst nightmare.

If I need a tool for a project...I ask myself these questions...How long will I use the tool (to determine quality level to get)? What other projects will I be able to use it for? What will the cost be?

I then take this to my wife and we talk about it. Obviously it needs to fit within our budget. I also try to make sure that my buying tools doesn't interfere with her doing fun things for herself.

P.S. It helps a lot of the things that you can build are things that she likes! Jewelry boxes, furniture for the kids, coffee table, etc.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Tom hit the nail on the head. The key to getting buy in from LOML is making stuff for her! It took awhile, but after a couple of my projects were for her, she is totally behind my woodworking. Sure she won't let me go out and buy a MM16, but that is because the budget will not allow it right now, if it would, she would let me.

Many here suggest that you buy a DJ20 right off the start instead of upgrading. I got my 6 inch benchtop jointer from sears for something like $90. To me the $90 investment is worth being able to use the machine until I can afford to upgrade. If I had waited until I could buy the best of everything... I would be in my 30's before I did anything. As it is, I am 23 and I have a pretty usable shop. Sure I want to upgrade a few tools, but they will get me buy until I can buy a 20 inch bandsaw, 10 inch jointer, 15inch planer and a 3hp cabinet saw. There isn't a tool that I NEED to get the job done... don't tell LOML that though...

My advise... look for a reasonable planer and jointer.. .then decide if their price is worth it, to get you buy. Sure you will spend more in the long run, but it was worth not having to wait. Also, build something she REALLY wants!

[Mike Evertsen]

for my ex made it easy she said it was her or my shop. It's been 10 yrs and havn't regretted choosing my shop.

[Ted Shrader]

John -

Fortunately the justification on my end is relatively easy and sometimes encouraged by LOML. Blasphemy here: Sometimes I justify why I don't have a particular tool when she is encouraging me to get one. I should just say, "Yes dear" and go for it.

Some suggestions - You could point out to her the increased flexibility the additional tools will give you. The jointer and planer combo will allow you to (1) save some money by buying rough sawn wood, (2) dimension it to the actual size required, not just ¾" or 1½", (3) increase you choices in available varieties.

Try to buy the best the budget will allow. Saves money in the long run since you won't have to 're-buy' the machine later. Sometimes this is not possible and individual choices will be just that - your choice.

Last - build something she will get a lot of use from after each major purchase. Always accompany the delivery of the new project with the explanation, "If it weren't for the [insert latest tool purchase], I wouldn't' have been able to build this."

Good luck,
Ted

[Ed Lang]

Glad I don't understand the problem you bring up.

My wife always asks if there is a better machine and would I rather have it.

She always seems to find a way to say "If you don't get what you want the first time, you will not be happy with it".

Now I must also tell you that she buys tools like crazy too! At the last woodworking show she bought a Hawk G4! She is using a Hawk 226VS now but I will get that when her new G4 comes in.

So I don't mind hand me down tools at all :-)

Good luck but always tell her the truth.

It has worked for 23 years for me.

[Scott Coffelt]

I started in the same boat, though I had made some things prior to meeting her. My first major purchase was an entry level TS. From there I either founds things used, killer deals or requested them as gifts. I built up a decent level of entry tools. As my skills, projects and business projects have allowed me to upgrade to the next level of tools.

Early on I found out how I could use a single tool (i.e., router) to do more things. As the wife saw the fruit of my labor, the purchases came easier. I still justify to her on large purchases, deals and the others often just get purchased... assuming there is money available.

My suggestion is to look for used as this can get you more for your money. Look for ways to do more than one function with a tool, until you can actually by that tool. Then cost justify something in each build. For example, building a dinning set... surely there is enought cost savings from buying retail to add the tool.

Good Luck

[David Wilson]

John

If all else fails try getting down on your knees and begging.

[Greg Mann]

sniiped
As it is, I am 23 and I have a "full" shop. There isn't a tool that I NEED to get the job done... don't tell LOML that though...
snipped

If Jeff got it done at age 23, I suggest the rest of us should be listening to him more often.:D

[Maurice Ungaro]

John,
A couple of questions come to mind:

What tools DO you own?
What type of projects do you see yourself doing in the near future?
I ask this because I started out with a borrowed Skil saw, and my own 3/8 drill - with those two items, I constructed some built in benches for my deck. That got the juices flowing, so I took a couple of classes, and started collecting tools. I first stated by getting mostly hand tools: Planes, saws and chisels. My chisel sharpening has been accomplished using Scary Sharp (that's about to change, as I recently purchased a Makita sharpener at a tent sale). My first power tool purhcase for wood working was my plunge router. After that I got a used contractor style table saw. With only those items, I have been able to execute some fairly nice and well appreciated projects - the most notable of which was the kneeling bench for our wedding last April ( I purchased a drill press to help with creating the mortices).

My woodowroking illness :rolleyes: started in summer of 2001, by early spring of 2002, I had completed my workbench, made entirely with hand tools, and lovingly made flat with the assistance of my #7 jointer plane. This past fall, I purchased a Delta 13" planer, only because I knew wanted one in the future, and Lowe's was clearing them out for $229! My early Christmas present was a Delta 14" bandsaw, since it too, was a screaming deal from Redmond & Son.

It's been 3.5 years since I started on this joinery journey, and the end ain't in sight yet. I've purchased most everything on sale, or discounted, or reconditioned or second hand. I try to only purchase things as I need them. The exceptions to that are the planer and the bandsaw, and the sad part is that they are still instorage, as our garage, and my workshop are still under construction.

Enjoy getting further into the hobby, and take pleasure in getting to where you're going. For the record I'm 43.

Maurice

[Jeff Sudmeier]

If Jeff got it done at age 23, I suggest the rest of us should be listening to him more often.:D

Ohh now that was soo taken out of context!! And I guess I shouldn't have used full... I should have said something like highly useful...

There are definately more tools that I want... I have about 20 on my list... but right now I am building a dresser and there isn't a tool that I would say I need to get it done easily and effeciently... Just don't tell LOML :)

[Tom Saurer]

Wanted to add another opinion here that I forgot to mention earlier....Power tools are not always the best and easiest way to do things. I build things for friends and family and so I'm not in the shop doing something every day. I can get by cutting my dovetails and mortises by hand. Dovetail Saw, Mortise Chisels, Mortise Guage, and Sharpening Stones cost me $140 total. A dovetail jig and Mortiser will be twice that.

[Silas Smith]

I never buy anything new and when I do find a good tool, I tell my wife I am only buying it because I can turn around and sell it for a profit. I have actually sold two table saws and a Leigh D4 and made about $400 dollars. What she doesn't realize is that I still haven't sold the 3 hp delta shaper that I bought for $400 or the DJ-20 that I got for $800. I also am guilty of hiding many a tool. Let's just say that when I tell the shipping department that I need it shipped to work, they know the drill.

[Jerry Olexa]

Go with the best you can afford/justify(in your own mind), Then you won't have to be upgrading later. If all else fails, beg..:D

[John Hulett]

John,
A couple of questions come to mind:

What tools DO you own?
What type of projects do you see yourself doing in the near future?
Maurice
1. C'man contractor TS (free), PC890 combo, C'man jig saw, DW cordless drill, C'man circular saw, C'man miter saw, DW RO sander, DW finish nailer, $99 C'man air compressor, D AP400 DC (last weekend), Incra TSLS (in the mail), and a set of cheap chisels. No real hand-tools (i.e. planes) to speak of.

2. The next 4 or 5 projects all involve sheet goods, hence going w/ the TSLS (the stock fence on the TS was quite poor) on the recent purchase. One of the next projects includes a built-in desk. Though the requirements for "real" wood is minimal, I'm still a bit concerned about what little there is. I have a few ideas of other stuff I would like to get into, like a blanket chest, where I can see using solid wood as opposed to sheet goods - that's where the question comes in.

I realize that I could have done more in terms of tools with the money I spent on the TSLS, but I though in the long run, it would be easier to justify the jointer, planer or bandsaw than the Incra stuff. The $$ I used for the Incra stuff was complete windfall, and didn't feel I really needed to justify so stringently on what it was spent on.

[markus shaffer]

John,

Request the price on a new Altendorf F-45 ELMO 4..

http://www.altendorfamerica.com/equipment/manufacturers/altendorf/f45/f45_elmo.htm

If you have to answer to someone about your finances, show her that price tag..

Then think realistically on what you want to do with woodworking and where you want it to take you. If you're going to make small projects like jewelry boxes and the such, then perhaps you don't need the Altendorf. If you think you might end up working with hardwoods a lot, then look into the biggest planer and jointer you can afford. I started out with a Delta DJ-20 and a 15" Powermatic planer.. They were both great machines, but when I started working with boards wider than 8 inches, the DJ-20 wasn't cutting it. I highly recommend looking into a combo jointer/planer if you think you're going to work with wide boards.. For me, this is my job, so it pays for me to spend the money on the right tool to begin with. Had I known what I was going to be doing today when I first started, I would have spent alot more money to begin with but ended up saving more in the long run. As it is now, I spent several years working with good machinery, but not necessarily the best for what I've ended up doing. While I can say my original machinery served me well, I did take a loss on selling them to upgrade.

I don't have a female to answer to when it comes to my money, so perhaps that also skews my perspective, but in general I'm a firm believer in the old addage "you get what you pay for". Spend more now and it'llend up costing you less..

-Markus

[Tom Ghesquiere]

A lot of this has been said before on previous posts, I'll give you my spin. Start producing things that LOYL will notice. Don't be afraid to ask what she wants you to build. Then you have the perfect entree to get a new tool in order to complete her project. My LOML encourages me to buy tools, she knows she will benefit in the end. When I buy tools I take into account how much I'm going to use the tool, assuming it's not a one time use tool, I buy higher quality stuff and I shop real hard for like new used items, reconditioned with manufacturer's warranty, or discontinued models where I can get a good price. If she does not support you in your endeavors, find one who does. LOL


My .02 worth.

Tom

[Mike Cutler]

Like others have said, show some results. Believe me when I say they don't have to be spectacular. Hang a door, redo a window trim, make a simple night table or plant stand. Cedar line a closet and make shoe racks, and wardrobe hangers for her (simple and cheap).
Luckily for myself, LOML supports what I do. She is very intimidated by the machines, and no matter how hard I try to teach/persuade her that the machines are inherently safe she still wants nothing to do with the shop. In fact, if a machine purchase means that I won't be asking her for help she supports it fully ;)

[Dave Harker]

For me, it boils down to 2 things:

1) Make things she likes - after my recent cabinet saw, jointer & planer purchase,
I told her to give me a huge list of things to build - in all seriousness, I
AM going to let her guide what I make, it was a lot of money and she is great!

2) This one is a bit more long-term, and may not work with some people, but...
-- educate her about what each tool does, I just did this with the jointer
and planer. Once she understood that , she could see why they would
be useful. Also, be sure to share about the financial costs of buying
cheap tools at first, then eventually selling them to upgrade. That's how
I approached it when I bought my 8" jointer (G1018HW, love it). vs. a
6" jointer. Also educate her about the more expensive options you
turned down in favor of "this one is good enough". Since I bought
mainly Grizzly, that was easy to do (and I'm very happy with my Griz tools).

Good luck,
Dave

[Bob Johnson2]

I've had hand me down power tools for many years, all of them fair quality at best, my TS was a shopsmith which works out to about 12"x12", etc... I always wanted better but couldn't afford to upgrade. Now that the kids are out of the house and there's a few bucks left after paying bills we started looking into redoing the house, inside and out. After pricing mediocre kitchen cabinets at $8000 from HD it wasn't hard to justify some decent tools, she even volunteered to pony up the $$$ from one of her accounts. Of course I have to build all of her items first, well sort of.

[Jim Becker]

In my case, Dr. SWMBO doesn't care what I buy for the shop...she knows how important woodworking is to me and also benefits from the furniture, kitchen renovation and other things that the shop has produced. But we've also been DINKs (dual income, no kids) for a long time...when the "NK" portion goes away one of these days, I'll be fighting for time and will not be making major tool purchases, so I'm glad I've done what I've done when I've done it! ;)

As to my buying philosophy..."The most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often. Invest in good tools, buy once and reap the rewards over time."

[Dale Thompson]

John,
I guess that I was lucky. :) Back in the mid 60's when we were first married, I explained to my bride that she could "hire out" for contractors or repairmen or allow me to take a shot at "fixing" the problem. There was, however, one condition. The right tool for the right job was important. A screwdriver CAN be used as a chisel! :( However, the "right" tool will save a lot of time, do a better job and certainly is a lot safer. If I need a tool for a specific job, I will buy it. :) She reluctantly agreed. :eek: :D

Conversely, if she chose to spend money on clothes to look real "nice", I would support that. If she needed a new oven to make a better casserole, I would support that. I LOVE casseroles!! :D :D

Forty-year update: We have been lucky! I buy the tools that I want without any need for justification. She buys the stuff that still make her look real "nice" without any justification. I guess that I was lucky! :)

Dale T. HAPPY VALENTINES DAY TO ALL!

[John Weber]

It's a hobby and you can spend as little or as much as you want. My first two table saws were borrowed. First a Craftsman contactor saw and then a Wards bench top saw. My third saw is a Powermatic 66. I tend to and not get that heavily involved in other hobbies (biking, photography, home theater, although my wife might disagree) that way more of my "hobby" money can go into woodworking. Over the years I've built a complete shop and can now do about whatever I want - not always as good as I want. When I started my tools and projects were simpler, now everything is a little more detailed and can requires more tools. Other hobbies can get very expensive: bass boat (or any boat for that matter - it's always best to have a friend with a boat rather then own a boat), classic cars, vacation home, etc... I like to focus specifically on woodworking, so it's easier to justify my purchases. Finally, I've received tools for almost every holiday at one time or another, and can't think of any gift that I'm as excited about.

John

[Aaron Montgomery]

This is my one hobby that really costs money. I know a lot of guys that have their boats or $15-20k Harleys. I don't have those toys so I don't feel bad about having 10k or more wrapped up in the shop.

I really only have to justify my purchases to myself. SWMBO pretty much let's me have free reign because she knows I'm not to out of control and if the budget demands that I take a few months off from buying tools, I can do that. That's one benefit of not having that mandatory $400/mo Harley payment. (Or in my wifes case a $400/mo horse payment)

Now where did I place that Performax 22-44 ad..

[Maurice Ungaro]

After pricing mediocre kitchen cabinets at $8000 from HD it wasn't hard to justify some decent tools, she even volunteered to pony up the $$$ from one of her accounts. This is also a VERY valid approach to your tool aquisition/quest: Tkae your bride furniture shopping.....seriously.....however, ONLY price the furniture that she can't live without. I gaurantee you that the retail price of any one of those pieces will far outweigh a major tool purchase. Use that as a bargaining chip to aquire tools and then start producing the furniture she wants. It's all about win/win.

Maurice

[Jim Dunn]

Jim Becker,
When the NK changes to DPH (diaper heaven) let me the first to congrats you and Dr. Becker. Until then I agree, buy what you can afford and need? My wife says I can buy a new tool now and again so long as I satisfy her needs as to wood working. (Been married for 34 yrs and all her other "needs" have been satisfied or so she says:).)

Jim

[Jim Becker]

When the NK changes to DPH (diaper heaven) let me the first to congrats you and Dr. Becker. No diapers(!!!)...school ages sibs. (Adoption - BLOG at http://a-j-adopt.blogspot.com (http://a-j-adopt.blogspot.com/)) And it's Dr. Evans. (Which makes me Mr. Evans on occasion...) My ex kept the "Becker" sirname...she liked it better than her birth name and we are still close friends. :)

[JayStPeter]

When we got married, I was into motorcycle racing. The expense and time requirements for that "hobby" far outweigh anything I've done since the day my garage turned into a shop.
I was fortunate that the selling off of that hobby (at pennies on the dollar :mad: ) enabled me to make the first few major purchases. The racebike became a Unisaw and leathers became a planer.
My wife much prefers this hobby. First, I don't HAVE to buy an expensive part before this coming weekend. I can usually do it when the money is available. Second, I don't HAVE to get things prepared before the weekend. If the project takes longer, so be it. Even when I spend an entire weekend in the shop, at least I'm home. Not at some far away track in unknown health status.
While I REALLY enjoy woodworking ... given the time and budget, 120 with your knee on the ground is severely addictive. My wife knows this also. She really hates my answers to "what would you want to do if we won the lottery?" :cool:

Jay

[Jim Dunn]

She's not a back Doc is she? Mine's killing me:(

[Jim Becker]

She's not a back Doc is she? Mine's killing me
No. SciD from Harvard School of Public Health, not an MD. Cancer research...epidemiologist. (large population studies)

[Byron Trantham]

I started out by finishing our basement. LOML loves tools. She kept telling me that I should build this or that and of course it required tools. That was about eight or nine years ago. I now have a pretty good shop. I never bought a tool unless I had an immediate need for it. The collection has grown (thanks to her). I have built many items for her; some them quite large and expensive (for materials). She wants me to buy a lathe but I simply don't have room for it. :mad:

[Jim Dunn]

Byron,
That's the lamest excuse for not buying a tool I've ever heard of. Now if you want to store at my shop I can accomodate ya. Course, you'll have to take a vacation to use it as it's a long drive:)

[Scott Loven]

I used to build and fly RC airplanes. My wife said that she would rather see me spending our money on something like woodworking tools rather than something that I was going to chash into the ground so I did! Most of it goes for home upgrades. I am looking forward to building some furnature with the 350 bf of cherry that I got for $150 that is sitting in the garage drying!
Scott

[Byron Trantham]

I used to build and fly RC airplanes. My wife said that she would rather see me spending our money on something like woodworking tools rather than something that I was going to chash into the ground so I did! Most of it goes for home upgrades. I am looking forward to building some furnature with the 350 bf of cherry that I got for $150 that is sitting in the garage drying!
Scott

Holly savings Bat Man!!!! :D :D

[John Hulett]

But we've also been DINKs (dual income, no kids) for a long time...when the "NK" portion goes away one of these days, I'll be fighting for time and will not be making major tool purchases, so I'm glad I've done what I've done when I've done it! ;)

As to my buying philosophy..."The most expensive tools are the ones you need to replace early and often. Invest in good tools, buy once and reap the rewards over time."
I used to be in that DINK club, but now with 1.3 kids (a 15 month-old and one in the oven), and LOML left here well-paying Utility job in July to be CEO/COO/CFO of Hulett Inc., the purse strings have gotten tight!

On the other hand, we spent around $5k on two entertainment centers last summer (immediately before my sparked interest in WW), which sickens me to think that for that kind of scratch, I would have been able to buy some nice tools and built it myself. Of course, I'm sure it would have taken me some time to build my skill enough to duplicate the EC we paid to have built - a luxury we didn't really have since the kiddo was to be mobile - read that crawling behind the TV and grabbing wires. Moving forward, however, I truely think that will be the overriding justification - shop for new furnature and compare to how much it will cost to build. To some extent, I've alread done that with an upcoming project - the forementioned built-in desk. I think it would cost me tripple to buy KD that it will to build a custom-fit unit.

[Ray Dockrey]

I also have a very understanding wife. We may spend money on tools, but she gets the benefit of getting things made for the house. I also have got into turning and I make sure that she gets the first one of anything I make. Sometimes the second and third ones to. I was at my local Woodcraft the other day and they were telling me that like it when I bring my wife with me because I spend more when she is with me. I am very lucky.

[Charles McKinley]

Byron,

If you buy a lathe you can sell off everything but the bandsaw and the chain saw. :D

Once the world becomes round everything becomes support for the lathe.

Come on, trrrrryyyy it, the first spin is freeeeee. HEHEHEHEHE

I'm sure some near by addict would love to introduce you to the spinny world.

[Larry Browning]

There are so many post on this thread that I haven't read them all. So if someone else has said the same thing, sorry.
But, I say this whole idea of NEEDING or even justifying a tool/toy is really moot. What this is about is WANT! The is absolutely no way your wife can justify NEEDING a new diamond ring is there? She just wants it. I think the same thing applies to the desire to get new tools. We don't need this stuff, we want it. Don't apoligize or even try to justify it. Woodworking is something you do that you enjoy, recreation. How does a fisherman justify that big bass boat. He can't, he just wants it. This is a good thing. If you can afford it, do it! Life is too short to not do the things that make us happy!!!!!

[Corvin Alstot]

Its a hobby and a process. Whats the hurry? Take your time, you can make a lot of stuff with very few tools. (I am still waiting to pull the trigger on a jointer).
Does that stop me, No!

Have fun and make purchases when funds are available.