Sawing and Saw Questions

[Richard Line]

I have some sawing and saw questions. I am doing more and more hand work, but I consider myself a beginner. Oh, and I'm cheap so my saws are far from collectors items.


Yesterday I was working on the feet for a stretcher type table. I had to cut away some wood on the bottom so 2 short feet were formed. This required a rip cut approximately 17 inches long, ¾ of an inch in from the edge. The start was from a hole drilled to form the end of the cut out. I started with my coping saw, but that was pretty slow going in the 1 ¼ thick wood (SPF). Once the cut was long enough to get my 20 in. long cross-cut saw's end few inches into the cut I switch to it. It worked okay, but while doing the cutting, I asked myself – how would the experts make this cut, what type of saw would they use. So, how would you do it.
My cross-cut saw is a Stanley 20 in. long, 12 ppi, with what they call 'sharp cut' tooth pattern. This saw is about 25 years old, but hasn't been used much until recently. Its starting to loose its sharpness and will need sharpening or replacement soon. I've done some saw sharpening and would take this saw on, except for the tooth pattern. The 'sharp cut' tooth pattern looks similar to a Japanese saw's teeth, but not exactly. The saw does cut on the push stroke and the teeth are not hardened. Can this saw be sharpened without a major level of sharpening skill, and what kind and size of file would be needed (the normal triangular file would not fit these teeth). I've checked Stanley's web site and it didn't have the info needed.
I'm thinking of getting another cross-cut saw, especially if the above Stanley can't be sharpened. I don't get out to those wonderful garage sales, swap meets, etc. where all the great old saws seem to be hiding, so I'm thinking about some of the new hand saws. Now remember, I said I was cheap, so L-N's, Pax and similar are right out. What I've been thinking about is the panel saw LV has in their catalog, German made, 21½” blade, 7 tpi ($32) with hardened teeth similar to those on my Stanley, or the Stanley 26” 12 ppi ($27), again with hardened teeth. Does anyone have any experience with either of these saws, other comparable saws that would be worth considering.

Other saws I have are the LV dovetail saw, a Footprint tendon saw (rip), a late Disston of dubious quality that I transformed into a rip saw, coping saw, hack saws, jab saws, and several pull saws. There is a carcass saw (cross-cut) on the wish list, probably the LV.

[Andrae Covington]

I have some sawing and saw questions. I am doing more and more hand work, but I consider myself a beginner. Oh, and I'm cheap so my saws are far from collectors items.


Yesterday I was working on the feet for a stretcher type table. I had to cut away some wood on the bottom so 2 short feet were formed. This required a rip cut approximately 17 inches long, ¾ of an inch in from the edge. The start was from a hole drilled to form the end of the cut out. I started with my coping saw, but that was pretty slow going in the 1 ¼ thick wood (SPF). Once the cut was long enough to get my 20 in. long cross-cut saw's end few inches into the cut I switch to it. It worked okay, but while doing the cutting, I asked myself – how would the experts make this cut, what type of saw would they use. So, how would you do it.
My cross-cut saw is a Stanley 20 in. long, 12 ppi, with what they call 'sharp cut' tooth pattern. This saw is about 25 years old, but hasn't been used much until recently. Its starting to loose its sharpness and will need sharpening or replacement soon. I've done some saw sharpening and would take this saw on, except for the tooth pattern. The 'sharp cut' tooth pattern looks similar to a Japanese saw's teeth, but not exactly. The saw does cut on the push stroke and the teeth are not hardened. Can this saw be sharpened without a major level of sharpening skill, and what kind and size of file would be needed (the normal triangular file would not fit these teeth). I've checked Stanley's web site and it didn't have the info needed.
I'm thinking of getting another cross-cut saw, especially if the above Stanley can't be sharpened. I don't get out to those wonderful garage sales, swap meets, etc. where all the great old saws seem to be hiding, so I'm thinking about some of the new hand saws. Now remember, I said I was cheap, so L-N's, Pax and similar are right out. What I've been thinking about is the panel saw LV has in their catalog, German made, 21½” blade, 7 tpi ($32) with hardened teeth similar to those on my Stanley, or the Stanley 26” 12 ppi ($27), again with hardened teeth. Does anyone have any experience with either of these saws, other comparable saws that would be worth considering.

Other saws I have are the LV dovetail saw, a Footprint tendon saw (rip), a late Disston of dubious quality that I transformed into a rip saw, coping saw, hack saws, jab saws, and several pull saws. There is a carcass saw (cross-cut) on the wish list, probably the LV.

Based on your description, I imagine the Stanley saw you have has impulse-hardened or induction-hardened teeth. They stay sharp a long time, but they are brittle. If you could even find a file with the correct profile, you would likely break the teeth. And the steel at the tooth-line is probably as hard as a saw file anyway. It's a compromise: impulse-hardened teeth will stay sharp a lot longer than regular ones, but once most of the teeth on the saw are dull, about all you can do is cut or grind off the teeth and use the rest of the sawplate for card scrapers and the like.

Although Lee Valley is a great company and they sell some wonderful tools, those carpentry handsaws they sell seem a little overpriced to me. I doubt there is any discernible difference in quality or functionality between that impulse-hardened, plastic-handled saw and the same type (Stanley, Kobalt, or other similar brand) you could buy at your local big box hardware store.

Since you have some sharpening experience, you might consider buying a vintage saw on ebay. I have three Disston and one generic (Warranted Superior) panel saws and each of them was less than $30 including shipping. There is some risk involved, not all sellers give you clear enough photos to see if there is any pitting, broken teeth, severe kinks, etc. And of course you should factor in the cost of a file or two to sharpen the saw. Just an alternative to consider.

[Bill Haumann]

I agree, you should be able to pick up a good vintage user saw on eBay for under $30. Likewise for a saw set. Buy the files new.

[Jonathan McCullough]

1. Pictures would help to clarify what kind of cut(s) you may be making, but from what I can gather, I would recommend using a rip saw for a 17" rip cut. If the cut curved over to eventually create a roundover in the finished piece, I'd start with the coping saw to cut the part that is too curved for the rip saw to fit in the curved kerf. Then I'd start sawing from the other side and meet up with the curved cut. Then I'd clean up saw marks with a spoke shave. If there was no roundover part, you could use a plane.

2. Never seen a saw with that tooth pattern that wasn't hardened. Are the teeth black or a sort of blueish peacock color, while the rest of the saw is shiny? If so, it's hardened. I'd speculate that tooth pattern is manufactured in two steps--first they punch in a fairly acute angle (30º) in, then they sharpen the back of the teeth with a conventional 60º file that's "safe" (i.e. smooth and non-abrasive) on one side. Though not traditional--at least in Western saws--it's really effective because it gives nice steep gullets that clear a lot of sawdust, and tooth points with enough backing to stay sharp. Unfortunately, if it's induction hardened, it can't be easily sharpened.

3. If you don't want to spend a lot, I'd also recommend cruising a local flea market or the garage sales. Even cheaper than ebay because you don't have to pay shipping and many people are dismissive about "that old saw." You may already have what you need in that Disston of dubious quality--what model is it and how many teeth does it have?

[lowell holmes]

There are handsaws in the SMC classified at some pretty good prices.

[george wilson]

Pay the $6.00 so you can take advantage of the classifieds. I have bought at least 3 things there at decent prices. OR,you could go to an antique shop and waste much more than $6.00 on their overpriced,worn out stuff.:)

[Eric Brown]

Have you considered a frame saw? Watch Frank Klause use his. He is amazing. Used old ones are very available and new replacement blades can be found. The blades can be wide or narrow, depending on the type of cut you want. With the blade rotated slightly, you can make long cuts.

Eric

[Richard Line]

As best as I can tell, my Stanley doesn't have hardened teeth. There are no signs of hardening (darkening, bluing or any type of heat treatment), even when looking through a 5X lope. This saw is 25 years old, I don't think they had started to apply the impulse or induction hardening at that time.

I was wrong about the name of the tooth form. It is 'Short Cut', not 'Sharp Cut', guess that doesn't make any difference.

Thanks for the suggestion to look in the SMC classified. A quick look and I see what you mean.

[john brenton]

I agree with Eric that bow saws are a good addition. When I have to make cuts like that sled foot, I start with a turning saw (bow saw) or coping saw until I get far enough in for the ripping blade (bow saw) to fit in there (rip blade is about 1.5"). Then I cut a "V" notch from the outside to the kerf I made with the turning saw, and that's how I get the ripping blade in there and it helps it register for the cut.




Have you considered a frame saw? Watch Frank Klause use his. He is amazing. Used old ones are very available and new replacement blades can be found. The blades can be wide or narrow, depending on the type of cut you want. With the blade rotated slightly, you can make long cuts.

Eric

[Scott MacLEOD2]

Before you buy something online and wait for the deliveryman I suggest spending some time over the coming weekend hitting a few garage sales and any local flea markets. I just about always have success finding old saws for a good to great price. My local antique (junque) dealer usually has a few as well at a reasonable if slightly higher price. Saw sets are easy enough to find, you may not initially find the model you want but should find something that will work.

If you have a local guy who sharpens handsaws he probably has a few for sale as well. Most saw/grinding shops aren't interested in touching handsaws and are happy to see them out the door.

I don't get obsessive about this stuff, just stop have a quick look and on to the next one. The nice thing is that there is virtually no market for these items other than folk like us. And there aren't that many of us out there.

Scott

[Jim Matthews]

Scott's suggestion is what has worked out best, for me.

You're paying for expertise, in this case.
Trying to go it on your own leads to a basement like mine; full of useless rusty crap.

[Scott MacLEOD2]

"Even a poorly sharpened saw cuts better than a dull one" not a direct quote, I couldn't find the original source. I thought it was Joel from Tools for Working Wood but I can't confirm it (sorry if I am incorrect Joel).

But I strongly agree with the statement.

As a result of garage sale and flea market shopping I have ended up with my share of rust, but not junk. I don't buy everything in sight. And I have a few gems. And I have a lot of stuff to practice on.

Just go for it. Tam LAWS video is worth the money. There is a lot of great free info on the net about sharpening. All you'll be out is a garage sale saw and a few dollars for a file. Worst case is if it doesn't work out and you bought a good saw to start with you can send it to one of the sharpening savants and have it done up.

Scott

linky
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=4&BG=1

[Georg Zudoff]

I made my choice and bought two japanese saws, not hand made - machine made. One - Guyokucho and the other noname, but they both were bought in Germany, the nearest place to Ukraine, where I live.

Frankly spoken I ripped by Ryoba 265 mm length the pine board with 50 mm thickness and 1 meter of length so easy as you slice butter with a hot knife.

Here we have not any Disston or similar saws, all Stanley and other brands probably will be good for carpenters cross sawing.

Moreover, I ripped and crosscutted some quantity of ebony, red heart (chakte cok) and rosewood cup for knife blocks.

It was enough hard - especially ebony handsawing, but a lot of positive - thinner kerf, less force for saw moving, but I will need a bandsaw for further knife block sawing.

But for small home projects with the kitchen as a workshop I 'm only on the japan saw side.

Just try it.

Some words regarding Disston or other good western-style saws - they no exist in the post-USSR countries. This is a main reason of japan saw choice. I'm sure that in US or Britain anyone can buy these saws on the flea markets, but no here.

Regards,
Georg.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Georg, is there a traditional eastern European saw, like a bow saw?

[Jim Matthews]

Cutting Ebony with Japanese saws is a harrowing experience -хороша людина!
The first time I tried crosscutting American white oak with a Japanese saw (impulse hardened) it looked like the front row of a Willie Nelson concert - not so many teeth remained.

What is the import situation in Ukraine for Swedish steel? Bahco makes some very good bow saws that would fly through hardwood.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Cutting Ebony with Japanese saws is a harrowing experience -хороша людина!
The first time I tried crosscutting American white oak with a Japanese saw (impulse hardened) it looked like the front row of a Willie Nelson concert - not so many teeth remained....

And cutting ebony with a western saw is easy? Also, it's important in any sawing task to pick an appropriate saw; so perhaps for ebony you need a kataba (single sided blade) rather than a ryoba, and further a particular type if kataba. I think Georg made a great decision, particularly since all those saws are so readibly available in Germany.

Pam

[David Weaver]

Cutting Ebony with Japanese saws is a harrowing experience -хороша людина!
The first time I tried crosscutting American white oak with a Japanese saw (impulse hardened) it looked like the front row of a Willie Nelson concert - not so many teeth remained.

What is the import situation in Ukraine for Swedish steel? Bahco makes some very good bow saws that would fly through hardwood.

Definitely important for people who want to cut exotics to start with a cheap machine made saw. They are really really tough. I have pinged some teeth off of nicer saws designed for softwood because I figured that they would be tougher than they were.

[Georg Zudoff]

Hello,

Some words for clarify situation with imported tools to Ukraine. Here we have not so large net of amateur-woodworkers as in US or Canada. Most woodworking tools from the shops, bazars - some kind of market on the open air can you propose only ordinary tools made by China.
I can't say anything bad to China, but most part of selling tools are poor bullshit.
For example the ordinary saws cost about 2 dollars till 4-6 dollars, but they will be dull after sawing one small oak board.

We have very poor mass woodworking culture.

People, who like to spend their free time or make money with woodworking exist, but in the small quantity.

The mass furniture sold ready for installing only with screwdriver.

There are much more people who work with wood for the living in the western regions of Ukraine - they have a lot of forests.

Here in the south-east regions people pay it's attention to farmery etc.

The imported tools are overpriced as regarding the ordinary salary. But exists flea-markets where you can buy tools (I bought only planes) in enough good conditions for low price.

Example - after 1 year of big mall shopping I've only 2 times saw the
Groz plane. Price was near 20-25 $. But I bought 2 planes similar by the length to Stanley N7 only for 6 and 8 $ each. Flea-market.

Bahco saws bowsaws - difficult to find and they are overpriced. I bought some meters of ordinary bandsaws with different teeth and width, made own bow saw and now be able to rip cut softwoods like pine, poplar etc. But these are not good for ebony.

In any cases, here we find our own way, looking and reading this site - all members and contributors have enourmous experience with ordinary for US things, but new for us. We don't shy to use free copies of very popular US woodworking
magazines and TV shows and other. Not for commercial use, just for looking and doing like people do.

So, I'm feeling enough good here with no big choice of tools but with beginning English, just enough to read, ask and write.

Good. Last one joke.

The problems with bandsaw choice. Here in Sawmillcreek in the appropriate thread I've asked about the best choice for priced wood resawing - bandsaw or bechtop circular saw, got answer - bandsaw and started to call in the different ukranian companies which propose bandsaws for customers.

Man! I live in the city with more than 1 million 500000 citizens - we have not any shop here where I can resaw my piece of wood for choosing appropriate bandsaw!

In more than twenty companies, presented in Ukranian Internet - no one have experienced engineer who can explain you about appropriate model of bandsaw.

They say - the max height of board is 100 mm so it will saw 100 mm. Stupid.

Only one from twenty was agreed with me and proposed come to their office, try to resaw oak, pine, my ebony and other stuff and choice the bandsaw model that accomplish to my needs.

But it's my country, I live here and suppose that all will turn to better.

Regards,
Time to go sleeping, tomorrow - fishing day.

Georg.