Stone-walled by Grizzly!

[Bill Arnold]

Following a discussion on this Forum a few weeks ago about bandsaw blades, I submitted a request to Grizzly Tech Support for information on the beam strength of the G0513 bandsaw. So far, I have received no response to repeated requests and referral to my original document requesting assistance.

Does anyone on the Forum have a direct contact with someone at Grzzly who knows something?

Is someone from Grizzly a member of the Forum?

I'm very satisfied with the bandsaw, just disappointed with support from Grizzly. This will certainly affect future purchase decisions.

[Tim Morton]

pick up the phone and give them a call. I have never had a problem getting techical help.

[Herb Blair]

Papagrizzly is on woodnet forum.

[Keith Outten]

Bill Crofutt is the Quality Control Manager at Grizzly and is a member of SawMill Creek.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=1014

[Charlie Plesums]

Bill, could your question be stated in a different way? As an engineer I have a pretty good idea what you probably mean by beam strength. If my thought matches your question, then the designer of the bandsaw would be very concerned about the beam strength (even though the designer of the Grizzly saws may not have spoken English, thus may have used a different phrase). Although I haven't looked for it, I don't recall ever seeing "beam strength" on a spec sheet or manual that someone on a help desk might have access to.

Are you looking for the maximum tension you can put on the blade? The consequences of changing to a stronger tension spring? Maybe the good folks at Grizzly could answer those questions

[Bill Arnold]

... Are you looking for the maximum tension you can put on the blade? The consequences of changing to a stronger tension spring? Maybe the good folks at Grizzly could answer those questions
That is exactly the form of the question I submitted. I was assured the question would be submitted to an engineer. That was weeks ago. To date, no response.

[Steven Wilson]

Why would you think that they would know what the beam strength of their bandsaws are? And if that was a design spec they come up with and gave a factory wouldn't it be proprietary? So why would they give it to you?

[Lars Thomas]

Steven, perhaps you are right - it could be proprietary. However, it would be appropriate (in my mind) to respond to that affect rather then ignoring the inquiry.

[Norman Hitt]

Why would you think that they would know what the beam strength of their bandsaws are? And if that was a design spec they come up with and gave a factory wouldn't it be proprietary? So why would they give it to you?

OK, assuming that is a problem, then they should have no problem answering the question if it was worded as follows;

I am considering using a (brand xyz 1" blade) on my Griz Bandsaw, but the blade requires 30,000 psi tension. My question is if my Griz model----- BS has enough beam strength, bearing and shaft load capacity to support the use of this blade without damaging my saw.

A yes or no answer (without any numbers even), should not affect any proprietary information, (which is theirs to give out as they see fit anyway), and this answer should be available to anyone that has paid for one of their machines, in order to get proper useage from it. Any mfr that would not provide an answer about a set of operating parameters for their machine would certainly be remiss IMHO.

[Bill Crofutt]

In discussing bandsaw blade tension, a few key points to remember are:
1. Blade tension is a function of the blade width and thickness; the wider
and thicker the blade, the more force is required to achieve a given
tension.
2. Blade force and blade tension are not the same thing. Force is measured
in pounds and does not depend on the blade. Tension is measured in pounds
per square inch and varies inversely with the cross sectional area of the
blade.
4. Higher quality bi-metal band material like that found in the Lenox
blades that Grizzly sells is stronger and can be tensioned higher than
traditional carbon steel bands. This does not mean it needs to be tensioned
higher, only that it is capable of being tensioned higher. I have discussed
this fact with Lenox reps in the past and they agree completely on this
point. Unless you are using a horizontal resaw designed specifically for
resawing, you will not be able to achieve the 15-30,000 psi. tension that
you mention. In fact, our Lenox rep told us he knew of no vertical consumer
bandsaw on the market that can achieve 30,000 psi blade tension with a
1" blade. Lenox suggested adding about 20% additional tension over a
standard blade but ONLY if required.

Our bandsaws, including the G0513, are built of heavy gauge materials and
thoroughly tested for performance. They are fully featured and, when
equipped with the proper blade, suitable for everything from intricate
scroll work to resawing. That said, when resawing you do want to use a
wider and thicker blade and a relatively high tension in order to achieve a
straight cut and satisfactory results.
The G0513 bandsaw is capable of properly tensioning all the blades we carry
for it, including the Lenox. We have many satisfied customers using this
machine, including for resawing with the Lenox blades, and we stand behind
it 100%.

And finally, sorry it took as much time as it did to get you a clearer answer.
I see the previous ones we supplied were not what you were looking for. I hope
this clears it up for you.

[John Bailey]

That's a nice answer, but I'm not sure the question is answered. How much tension can a GO513 put on a one inch blade? If it can't put 30,000 psi on a 1", can it put that much on a 3/4".

John

[Steven Wilson]

That's a nice answer, but I'm not sure the question is answered. How much tension can a GO513 put on a one inch blade? If it can't put 30,000 psi on a 1", can it put that much on a 3/4".
You have to include a specific blade material and thickness if you want to know the answer. For example, it's very easy for me to tension a 1" wide Olson or Timberwolf blade on my MiniMax MM20 (fairly thin carbon steel blade) to 20000psi. It takes a few more cranks to tension a 1" wide Lennox Trimaster to the same 20000psi. The main difference between the blades is the thickness of the band

[Bill Arnold]

In discussing bandsaw blade tension, a few key points to remember are: ... I hope this clears it up for you.
Bill,

Your explanation is clear and exactly what I already understand about bandsaw and blade operation. The reason I requested the information from Grizzly regarding the overall capability of the G0513 is that people on this Forum said it was not strong enough to properly tension a Lenox carbide blade. They pointed out that their MM16's or Laguna's are much more capable of supplying the correct tension. Based on the input from these experienced and knowledgeable follks, I wanted to know the designed tensioning capability of the G0513 before paying the price for a Lenox blade. They insist that they routinely apply 15,000 to 30,000 pounds of tension on their vertical bandsaws in order to operate the system properly. While I'm not a novice at woodworking, I'm still learning things about some of my tools.

Let me say that, since owning my G0513 for several months, I have found it to be a sound machine and has done everything I asked of it. I have resawed up to 12" Honduran mahogany and cherry, and have had no issue with the saw. It has become my primary saw for ripping because of the reduced waste. After seeing my G0513, a neighbor who had bought a competing saw (painted white) says he wishes he had known more about Grizzly machines before making his purchase.

I did not intend this to be a rant by posting on the Forum. The e-mails I posted are only a portion of the total correspondence. The fact that you responded shows that Grizzly has people qualified to respond to customer issues. Tech support folks cannot be expected to have all the knowledge necessary to answer customer's questions. They must have the initiative to follow through and get the answers.

Thank you for taking time to respond.

[Bill Arnold]

You have to include a specific blade material and thickness if you want to know the answer.
Not if I want to know the maximum designed tensioning capability of a machine. Perhaps the tensioning capability of a machine should be expressed by ranges and materials of blades. In any case, the machine (whatever type of machine it may be) is designed with various forces factored into the equation. If that information is proprietary, then so state. Don't stonewall a customer.

[Alan Turner]

I run the 1" carbide Lennox Trimaster, and was told by Louis Iturra that Lennox recommends 30,000 psi of tension on that blade. My Aggazani gives me that tension, on that blade, and is vertical. I measure the tension with the Iturra tension guage.
Bill -- I think you are entitled to an answer on the question you asked, and I am not sure that you got one.

[Bill Arnold]

I run the 1" carbide Lennox Trimaster, and was told by Louis Iturra that Lennox recommends 30,000 psi of tension on that blade. My Aggazani gives me that tension, on that blade, and is vertical. I measure the tension with the Iturra tension guage.
Bill -- I think you are entitled to an answer on the question you asked, and I am not sure that you got one.
Alan,

Thanks for the confirmation -- I think they're still stone-walling a bit. Why would Lenox tell Grizzly one thing and another vendor something totally opposite. I doubt they did! Makes one wonder if the Grizzly machine can handle the tension, doesn't it?

Regards,

[Jim Becker]

Bill, I can get the same 30k PSI on my MM16 with the 1" Lennox carbide based on the Iturra tension meter I purchased. That said, it's pushing the limits of the saw at that point! (Not the frame...the tension mechanism)

[Bill Arnold]

Bill, I can get the same 30k PSI on my MM16 with the 1" Lennox carbide based on the Iturra tension meter I purchased. That said, it's pushing the limits of the saw at that point! (Not the frame...the tension mechanism)
Jim,

Yiu've mentioned that before and that's why I'm trying to get a response from Grizzly. I'm sure the frame of the G0513 is strong enough, but what other factors need consideration. Tension spring upgrade? Other? Why does Lenox tell Grizzly one thing and everybody else something different?

I'm not concerned with whether I can do some nice resaw on my G0513. I know I can with the blade I've been using. You and some of the other guys have recommended the Lenox carbide blade for durability and I'd probably be willing to spring for it if Grizzly will provide the information needed.

Getting the information from Grizzly has now become a mission. Yes, I have plenty of other things to occupy my time. No, I'm not really obsessed with this matter. My blood pressure is just fine. I spent most of my life in companies where customer service was the only reason you existed. It annoys me when I know that someone somewhere has answers and nobody seems interested in taking the initiative to get them.

Best Regards,

[Jim Becker]

Bill, honestly, I think your saw will handle the blade fine, even if for some reason you can't get it up to 30K. But talk to Iturra if you want further advise. They really know those blades better than just about anyone on the planet.

And you will really like the finish that the Trimaster provides!

[Brian Austin]

Did you ever wonder if we pay a little too much attention to the numbers?

You've said you're satisfied with the bandsaw and its abilities, are happy with its results but are upset because you can't get a number for maximum blade tension available on the machine?

The Grizzly rep stated that they can't get to the maximum Lenox blade tension but, according to Lenox, the blade will function just fine short of that tension.

I suspect you didn't pay as much for your Grizzly as a comparable Minimax or Laguna. While I have several Grizzly products in my shop and wouldn't trade them for anything, I recognized that there ARE compromises involved in not purchasing a more expensive machine. That's part of the tradeoff when you buy the less expensive machine.

[Donnie Raines]

Hate to ask a dumb question: If the saw is doing everything that you want it to now, and to your satisfaction, why would you want to buy the Lennox blade any way?

[Steve Jenkins]

I use a 1/2" lenox on my Laguna 18 and it resaws just fine.I've resawn 11" mahogany and maple and 6-7" Bolivian Rosewood,6" ipe. No problems on any of them. Don't know why I would want a 1' blade..

[Bill Arnold]

Hate to ask a dumb question: If the saw is doing everything that you want it to now, and to your satisfaction, why would you want to buy the Lennox blade any way?
Donnie,

Good question! A lot of folks use the Lenox blade because of its durability as well as giving a great cut. If it lasts 6 times as long as a blade costing 1/4 of it, then the economy is there.

[Jim Becker]

If it lasts 6 times as long as a blade costing 1/4 of it, then the economy is there.
Baring "breaking" it...the lifetime of the carbide tipped blade is measured in years, rather than the days or hours for a "standard", high-quality bandsaw blade. Therefore, it's actually a lot less expensive...and leaves a surface that is nearly as smooth as a table saw. The good news is that the new formula that Lennox is using should result in less "fatigue" issues on smaller 16-20" bandsaws and a good, long life, especially is you religiously reduce the tension between shop sessions.

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie,

Good question! A lot of folks use the Lenox blade because of its durability as well as giving a great cut. If it lasts 6 times as long as a blade costing 1/4 of it, then the economy is there.

I understand the life expectency aspect. But there are many vaiables to that...type of wood you use(on average), is the saw set up properly( a saw that has some issues will prematurely ware a blade...no matter how good a blade you have), are you feeding the wood at the proper rate etc, etc...

I realize that your no beginer so forgive me for being some what elementry above. But, I feel that if something aint broke....well...you no the rest.. :D :cool:

[Bill Arnold]

I use a 1/2" lenox on my Laguna 18 and it resaws just fine.I've resawn 11" mahogany and maple and 6-7" Bolivian Rosewood,6" ipe. No problems on any of them. Don't know why I would want a 1' blade..
Steve,

Thanks for your input. I'm not sure I want a 1" blade either. I've been getting decent resaw with a Timberwolf 3/4" 3AS-S and recently purchased a 1/2" Woodslicer to try. I have only recently started doing projects on which I plan to do a lot more resawing. I'm trying to gather all the data I can to make my job easier; hence, the request for information from Grizzly.

You use a 1/2" blade for resaw as do others I've post on the subject. Yet other folks have insisted that the wider the blade, the better. I'm all for using no more blade than necessary. Is your 1/2" Lenox the carbide version?

Regards,

[Bill Crofutt]

Well, I’ll apologize up front because I’m going to sound like the bad guy here but there is some “straightening-out” that needs to be done. And you guys gotta remember that just because you read it in a post somewhere doesn’t make it so.

First, the Lenox carbide blade we sell was designed to cut metal, not wood. Yes, that’s right, metal. It was only the last few years this blade was even listed in the wood cutting column from Lenox. Metal cutting, as I am sure you would understand, is a significantly higher challenge than cutting wood. High tensions are required to get a straight cut. Did you ever cut a piece of pipe with a hack saw and get a perfectly straight cut? I bet not, yet you can routinely get a straight cut with your hand saw in a 2x4. That isn’t the best comparison, but it does make my point. Metal does not cut the same as wood. If you are cutting cast iron with your bandsaw then you may need 25,000 or 30,000 psi of tension, but certainly that is not the case.

For those of you who have more industrial machines that can tension a blade that high, my question to you would be, why? There is no need to run those kinds of tension with blades made today. If you cannot get a straight cut at lower tensions….well I have no idea why. Why put everything under such a load when it’s not needed? Just because your truck CAN haul 2,000lbs in the back doesn’t mean you need to drive around all day with a load of sand in the back. That’s the same with these blades. Yes, they CAN be tensioned to 30,000psi IF NEEDED.

The G0513 will easily tension a ½” blade to well over 40,000psi but cannot tension a Lenox 1” blade that is not only wider but thicker to anywhere near that number. The G0513 will tension it to 15,000psi and more if we wanted to add a “cheater bar” to the tension handwheel. But why would we? There is absolutely no logical reason to have more tension on a blade than is required. If 10,000psi works wonderfully what is the point of exceeding it?

Remember that these blades are for cutting metal and just happen to do an incredible job in wood. That is where this misconception came from about these very high blade tensions which ARE needed if cutting a piece of iron pipe and you want a straight cut. But not needed when plowing your way through a piece of wood.

Should you disagree with my comment, I invite you to call the Lenox rep. His name is Larry DeWilde at 360-920-8886. He will confirm what I say as being accurate.

[Jim Becker]

First, the Lenox carbide blade we sell was designed to cut metal, not wood. Bill, are we perchance talking about a different blade? The one I use is a TriMaster 1" variable pitch and I cannot even imagine putting it any where near ferrous metal...the brazed tips would be ripped off in a second. It looks like and works like a carbide tipped table saw blade, except, in my case, it's 145" long instead of 10" round.

No argument from me that you don't need the high, 30k tension. 15-20K works great and is about where I use mine since I can't justify putting the machine under that kind of stress if it's not needed. (But I did test to see if I could...)

[Steven Wilson]

Bill, are we perchance talking about a different blade? The one I use is a TriMaster 1" variable pitch and I cannot even imagine putting it any where near ferrous metal...the brazed tips would be ripped off in a second. It looks like and works like a carbide tipped table saw blade, except, in my case, it's 145" long instead of 10" round.

According to Lennox the Trimaster is designed for "Abrasive non-ferrous materials, Wood cutting, Alloy steels, Tool steels, Bearing steels, Carbon steels, Stainless steels, Mold steels". My 1" Lennox Trimaster works best on my MM20 at 18,500 psi, 22,000 psi when I'm trying to resaw a 14" wide slab of Cocobolo or cutting fairly thin veneers from 14" or wider stock (not something I do often). FYI, the Timberwolf blades I use (3/8" AS, 1/4", and 1/2" PC blades) work best around 8,000 psi, if it takes more that 10,000psi then the blade's getting dull.

[Jim Becker]

Interesting. I would think one would want something with a lot more TPI for metal work than what my 1" blade has! (And I still will not let mine near anything metal...)

[Ken Salisbury]

For those of you who have more industrial machines that can tension a blade that high, my question to you would be, why? There is no need to run those kinds of tension with blades made today. If you cannot get a straight cut at lower tensions….well I have no idea why. Why put everything under such a load when it’s not needed? Just because your truck CAN haul 2,000lbs in the back doesn’t mean you need to drive around all day with a load of sand in the back. That’s the same with these blades. Yes, they CAN be tensioned to 30,000psi IF NEEDED.

There is absolutely no logical reason to have more tension on a blade than is required. If 10,000psi works wonderfully what is the point of exceeding it?



The 2 statements above just about says it all. I personally wouldn't want to push any of my equipment to the edge. I have absolutely no idea of the tension I apply on my BS blades (primarily Timberwolves). Whenever I install a different blade I tension it until it cuts satisfactorily for the desired application.

If you want to know how much is too much - - just keep tensioning/measuring until either the blade or the machine mechanism breaks and you will have the answer. Simply stop short of that next time :D

[Bill Arnold]

... The G0513 will easily tension a ½” blade to well over 40,000psi but cannot tension a Lenox 1” blade that is not only wider but thicker to anywhere near that number. The G0513 will tension it to 15,000psi and more if we wanted to add a “cheater bar” to the tension handwheel. But why would we? There is absolutely no logical reason to have more tension on a blade than is required. If 10,000psi works wonderfully what is the point of exceeding it? ... Bill,

This is exactly the kind of information I was seeking. Maybe I didn't phrase my question correctly and, for that, I'll apologize. After hearing other, more experienced woodworkers praise the quality of cut from a specific blade at a specific tension setting, and then hearing from them that the G0513 probably couldn't reach that level of tension, I needed to hear the facts from the Grizzly side of the street. Your response in this post is all I need to hear.

Thank you for your time.

Best Regards,

[nic obie]

I think it's pretty neat that this band tension issue was resolved without flaming either people, or their products. It means alot that the importer chimed in with his opinion too.

I also had problems figuring out what tension to run on my band saw. Once I spent the money & time with the Iturra gauge things got more way more understanding for me.

All my Lenox bi-metal bands work good at 23k psi and I run my Lenox 1/2" carbide blade at around 20k most of the time. This is on a MM16. I have cranked the saw up MUCH more but don't see the need.

It is important to know that band saw blades will increase tension a bit after they are run awhile. I have found a 3k psi increase common.