Panel Saw: HD vs Friend's

[Matt Walton]

Hi all, I have been planning on building a MAME cabinet, and as such, I will have to have some very big pieces of MDF cut. So this is my question: If I had the option to have HD/Lowe's cut it, or haul the whole 4' x 8' sheets over to another shop, and cut it myself/with the help of a friend, what would you recommend? I would just have HD do it, except I'm not sure about the accuracy/repeatability. Here (http://www.lusid.net/arcade/) is a link to the page with the cut plan, and the one that says Rev. 7 is the one I'm talking about. So I guess one of my questions is: have you had good experience with HD/Lowe's and their panel saws? There are a couple problems with doing it myself. To start with, my friend with the panel saw was pointing out a problem to me where the action was not smooth the whole way down. Also, if I messed it up, I would only have myself to blame. On the other hand though, I would have more control over what was going on, and could take more time to make sure it came out right. But either way, another questions I have is: How would you do these cuts? What I mean by this is, in what order would you make these cuts? I think I will have to do a lot of them with a jigsaw, especially the angled cuts, as I can't think of any other tool that would be able to do that. And if anybody needs help visualizing it, I made a Sketchup model Here (http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=7bb600dcf706540bface6be6acfd080f&prevstart=0). I figured that would be a good first step when first planning it out, as the cut pattern is not extremely helpful in trying to figure out how it goes together. I will be posting progress on my blog at http://projectthings.blogspot.com if anybody is interested.

[Jerome Hanby]

They may not cut MDF for you, makes a ton of flour like dust, so that may not even be an option. If you have a circular saw, you can get a PSI Portable Panel Saw from Amazon for around $100. That will turn your circular saw into a great tool for breaking down sheet goods. I built my daughters "doll house" bed out of MDF and made all the major cuts with that arrangement. Lots of panels no too dissimilar from most MAME cabinets I've seen. Of course if you have money to spare, buy a Festool panel saw. I upgraded to one, but I still pull out the PSI for long cuts...

[Peter Stahl]

I agree with Jerome on using a track saw. I used to get really good cuts with just a straight edge clamped to a sheet of plywood and a circular saw. Just make sure the edge of circular you put up to the edge is parallel to the blade. I have a Festool saw now and the nice thing with them is they are a plunge saw so you don't have to lift the saw up just let the blade retract. You're still going to have to finish up inside cut with a hand saw or jig saw. There are several track saws out there, PSI (Penn State Industries), Dewalt, Eurekazone & Festool to name a few (only ones I could think of).

[Eric DeSilva]

Last time I had HD cut something for me on their panel saw, it was a 3/4" piece of oak veneer ply... The guy jammed the panel saw through it so hard and so fast the veneer was splintered and destroyed 3" from either side of the cut. I just stood there, jaw hanging down. He seemed shocked when I said I wasn't going to pay for it.

[Larry Rasmussen]

I will venture to say that there is no circumstance in which a lumberyard or home depot type store will do an accurate cut for you. I have had this done occasionally over many years and find the best places will promise (more like warn) you they can only get within a half inch and can't gaurentee exact squareness either. Usually they are not using precision machinery and if they are using good machinery it is still not realistic to expect everything to remain in good alignment with optimal sharpness on the blades with the amount of heavy stuff that gets cut up in a yard.

I have good luck specifying cuts one or two inches larger than the actual cut line I will do when I arrive home. Usually I'll have them split it the long way so it is easier to handle and fits better on the roof rack of my car. I also recommend a guided circular saw. I have a Festool and guides but before that I used a Porter Cable saw and a metal straight edge. Again in the old days I used to use a 2X3 inch lumber grid with 18" open squares thrown across a couple saw horses as a cut table. Just adjust the blade so it doesn't go much deeper than your panel. Actually if you are only going to do this once and have a dry bit of lawn you can always set the panel on it and cut away. If it's not new mowed you'll stay above the dirt.

Ok so what brought the circular saw approach up to excellent was when I discovered guided saws; that is the saw fits in a track and can't wander during the cut instead of just being run against a straight edge. Next good thing was hearing about using rigid foam as a cut surface. When fresh it ads a certain small amount of support to help reduce splintering on the down side of cut. It's also feather light, easy to store away and can be used on any flat surface. Since I've had the Festool I've noticed a few of the major companies have developed track systems for their saws and while not cheap they are generally a bit less.

Ok did some homework on Amazon. The integrated systems with saw and track at a glance are Festool with 55" track for $525, Makita with 55" track for $400, DeWalt with 59" and 102" tracks included $549 with many reviews on each system. In general DeWalt wasn't getting the love the other two did. There were the also several kits that were much much less expensive that attached to the user's saw and could be guided by some of the many clamp guides that have been on the market for years. I used "circular saw guide system" as a search phrase and could have read all afternoon about the choices. If I were looking now besides the obvious question of how well it stays on the track I'd look at the zero clearance anti splinter tape material that Festool uses and see if the other ones have it and also the effectiveness of the dust collection.

The Arcade looks like a fun set up, good luck with the build!

Larry R

[Jim Matthews]

Outside of the construction season, you may find qualified people working there.

If you're willing to shop on a weekday, when it's not busy - they may be willing to do more.
I just ask, most are glad to help.

If you spell out your project, the worst they can say is no.

I'm all for breaking sheet goods down at the point of purchase, as my minivan is high enough that loading the top is a pain (although I've done it).

If you look further afield, perhaps a cabinet shop could source parts for you?
They've got the gear, expertise, and in this economy - time to spare.

[Larry Rasmussen]

They could be wood cutting geniuses with very helpful attitudes and the goals outlined by original poster would not be achieveable. Usually the more knowledgeable they are whether at Home Depot or a specialty yard the faster they are to tell you they don't guarentee total accuracy on the cuts.
Larry
Seattle

[Myk Rian]

First; I wouldn't buy the wood at the box store.
Second; I've never seen them do an accurate cut.
Third; You have total control doing it yourself.

[Matt Walton]

Well, if I had money to spare, I'd just buy my own top-of-the-line panel saw! :D
Anyways, what I'm noticing is that up until the last post, everybody is pretty much saying don't have HD cut it, but also nothing was really said about doing it myself. I would consider just using my circular saw and a straightedge, but for one thing, I don't trust the saw, and also, I would have to either buy a straightedge, or try to find a piece of wood that is square.
Larry: I would definitely like to get a track saw, but right now, I don't have the money, since I'm spending it all on the cabinet!
Myk: I am a little bit curious as to why not. Is there as much of a quality drop at home centers with MDF as there is with Plywood? As for your 2nd and 3rd comments, that is why I am thinking about doing it myself. The saw I would have access to is actually a school my friend teaches at. It's really more of a tech center, but they have quite a few different workshops. Although I am homeschooled, I was going there to participate in a robotics team, and this person I am taking about is the coach of the team. Anyway, school might be out by this point, so I don't know if we would be able to get in, but if we could, and I decided to go this route, what would be some things to look out for to see if the panel saw would work or not? Are there any really good ways to determine accuracy, and is the little bit of hangup in the travel really anything to be concerned about?

[Greg Hines, MD]

That is a very clever panel saw.

[George Farra]

I've given up on HD/Lowes, or any other lumber yard for that matter, giving me clean cuts in sheet good...especially quality veneered plys. I bought a cordless circ saw and attached a zero clearance sole made from 3/8" MDF. I attach is with double sided tape....blade is exposed though, haven't figured out a solution yet....but I will :)

That and a straight edge & clamps....I cut my own sheets in the parking lot and load it into my SUV. I do cut slightly oversized and get them to finished size in the shop. So far its worked for me and the whole set up cost about $100.....craftsman c3 saw

[George Farra]

I should add...that I do bring my own scrap wood to act as a spacer in berween sheets or the metal HD orange cart :). Pink rigid insullation works well too

George

[scott spencer]

I usually have the home center cut it to rough manageable sizes, then I do the final cuts in the shop. It's just really convenient to do while you're there buying it.

[Peter Quinn]

I'd use a circular saw with a shop made strait edge , just rip a factory edge of a sheet of 1/2" MDF, tack a 1/4" fence to one edge of this, make a rip cut through this with your saw to get the exact blade location, no measuring an offset, works as well as a $600 saw but with no plunge feature and DC must be rigged by you. I have cut $1000k hardwood doors to size using this type of $.29 guide. I have three lengths in my shop for a variety of circumstances, and have made them up to 20' by splicing.

I would maybe have the store split sheets into slightly oversize to drop weight and make the lifting easier, but unless you have a very special relationship with a local store it is unreasonable to walk in with a cut list that complicated and expect them to be either willing or able to do the work. I'd much rather do it at my pace with full control in my own shop. Keep in mind full sheets of MdF weight 100#'s, so it may be necessary to have a helper for your safety as far as moving e product.. For the sides with all the angles I'd cut the first one accurately then use it as a template for the second one. I'd cut the second one close and flush trim to the first with a router for accuracy.

[Dick Bringhurst]

It's been my experience the BLOG will not guarrentee accuracy. Also their blade leaves something to be desired. A hatchet would be better. Dick B.

[Robert Todd]

I usually have the store cut an eighth inch or so larger than I need, then if the piece is too large to finish cut on the table saw, I use a straight edge and a router with a bearing guided trim bit to finish to the final size. I can cut to very fine tolerances this way and it leaves a perfectly smooth edge.

[Myk Rian]

Myk: I am a little bit curious as to why not. Is there as much of a quality drop at home centers with MDF as there is with Plywood?
Ever look at the top sheet of a pile in the store? Is it warped?
I'll spend a bit more for good ply.

[Jim Neeley]

Your store must be better than mine, Mike.. Here's the first half of the stack, at least! :)

[Chip Lindley]

Oh how I wish I had a big slider! (or space to put one) I have had good success using a shop-made straightedge clamped to sheet goods while cutting it with a circular saw with 40T blade. FWW #95 showed the jig on p.85. My straightedge is an aluminum bar screwed to 1/2" plywood. It Works!

197003

[Alan Lightstone]

I have them rough cut it at the BORG for ease of transportation, and cut to precise length at home on the Festool TS55.

The quality of the cuts at the BORG are brutal. Leave lots of excess. Also, since virtually every time I'm there their track saw is broken, I find I have to make the cuts myself more and more. How it can be constantly broken is beyond me.

[Matt Walton]

I'm not sure y'all are understanding me. I want to use MDF, not plywood. Is there really as much of a problem with home center MDF as there is with plywood? And is it the general consensus that the panel saws at home centers are not accurate, or that panel saws in general are not accurate? And, like I may have said earlier, I really don't have much more money to spend, so I need to do this as cheaply as possible. Also, if it helps at all, I do have the one-time-tool straightedge from Woodpeckers ordered, along with the stop block that comes with it, but that only starts shipping June 13, I think.
This is basically what I'm hearing:
Don't rely on the home center panel saw: well, nothing is really said about doing it myself.
Have the home center cut it to rough size and cut it to final size myself: well that would be great, but I don't have a straightedge or saw that I trust. The one I have is a Black & Decker, so definitely not the best, and possibly near the worst.
What you have to realize is that I am spending around $700 on this, and probably at least $100 of that is on the construction materials. So you can see, I need the cheapest way. If all you can do is recommend a good cheap circular saw, then that is fine.
Sorry if I am sounding like a jerk, I'm just getting a little frustrated. I only have this summer to not only build, but also enjoy this thing before I head off to college. Of course, I'll still have the breaks to enjoy it, but I think you understand.

[John M Wilson]

I need to do this as cheaply as possible.

I'm just getting a little frustrated.

I only have this summer to not only build, but also enjoy this thing before I head off to college.

If I can offer 2 cents of advice that may be helpful, from someone who has been down this path:

Trying to do a project without the proper tools guarantees frustration, and will not provide a result that will be satisfying, enjoyable, or ultimately cheap.

Sometimes the best way to go fast on a construction project is to go slowly at first, getting your ducks in a row. It's June 5, you've got plenty of summer left. Don't get in a hurry, that will just mean that you will very quickly waste your limited funds. If you buy a $50 sheet of raw material, and screw it up, you will be frustrated and $50 in the hole.

If you do not have a good circular saw, that is an excellent place to start. You don't have to spend a mint to get a good one, and a good one will last you for many more projects. Search Amazon to gather the relevant features and price points, go to your local home center and handle a few to see what feels right, and then search Craigslist for a bargain that will meet your needs. Buy a new blade. They're relatively cheap, and many a high-dollar project has been derailed in the unwise effort to scrimp on the part of the saw that actually does the cutting. Amazon has the Freud D0740X for $13.26, and this all-around blade gets excellent reviews.

Your best bet on this project is to approach it from the "best value" standpoint, rather than the "lowest cost" method. You can waste a lot of money by going the cheap route.

If you can, find some enjoyment in the construction process; don't just focus on the end product.

If I were you, I would invest in a circular saw I could trust, have your home center break down the sheet into manageable pieces, and then do the finish cuts at home using a straightedge (which could be the factory edge of one of your off-cuts).

Let the good folks on this site know what you have, what you want, and your level of expertise, and you will be amazed at the good advice that flows your way.

Good Luck!

[Matt Walton]

Thanks John, that actually helped calm me down. :)
Here's the thing with the money. A long time ago I decided that I wanted a Macbook Pro, so I started a savings account. Well, a few years ago, I decided that I wanted to buy an MSA steel guitar, so that was almost $2000. That brought me down to around $1000, far away from what I needed for the Mac. And my dad got an iMac, so I don't exactly feel the need to get one anymore. Anyway, I was wanting to build this cabinet, so my dad told me that I could use the money from the savings account. So the cost of the materials more or less a null point, I'm just not sure how he would feel about using the money to buy tools as well. I am also thinking about going to Woodcraft or Rockler later today, so we'll see what happens with that as well.

[Matthew Hills]

I've heard some people get good cuts from box-store panel cutters. I haven't seen that at my local stores, and I'd only use them if I wanted rough cuts to get some pieces home. (be sure to keep track of which corners are factory, as they are more likely to be square.

Track saw with plunge is ideal, but if you don't have one available, you can use circ saw with a straight edge guide. You can make your own straight-edge (http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/4283497) using sheet goods and some clamps to hold it on your work:
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/cut-straight-4-0908.jpg

Wear dust mask for MDF.
I'd try and clamp your two side pieces together and make the majority of the cuts at the same time.
Make sure your work is well-supported. I cut on the floor, with foam insulation underneath, but that won't work as well if you need to use clamps. Will probably want a few sacrificial 2x4s or sawhorses.

For detailed areas that you can't cut easily with a circ saw, test to see what you can do with your jigsaw. How clean and straight can you make your cuts? You can make a similar sawing guide to use with this, and some blades will leave cleaner cuts than others. I'd normally expect to cut a bit outside the line, and then smooth it down to the line using sandpaper and a wood block (helps in straightening any irregularities). If you get the detailed cuts done on one panel, a router and flush trim bit can be used to transfer the pattern.

Don't rush this if you want it to come out well, and test out any new techniques either wide of the line, or on scrap pieces.

Oh, and watch out for the corners of MDF -- they crunch easily.

And I did say to use a good dust mask, right?
I'd also recommend working outside if at all possible.

Matt

[Ole Anderson]

If you do not have a good circular saw, that is an excellent place to start. You don't have to spend a mint to get a good one, and a good one will last you for many more projects.

My first power tool was a B&D 7 1/4" SawCat circular saw purchased when I lived in married housing while at college in 1967. That saw is still going strong after 44 years. I would recommend a strong (read 15 amp) corded saw like a Milwaukee or similar. At some point in your life you will likely build a deck, cutting lots of 2 by and 4 by material. No need for a fancy and expensive worm drive, they are cool but overkill unless you build houses for a living. Get a Freud Diablo 40 tooth finishing blade for sheet goods.

Oh, and I often have the BORG or my plywood store break down the sheet goods depending on the project. I can fit a full sheet in my shop, but it is a tight fit and I would rather trim to the exact size if dimensions are critical. And half sheets fit in my van with the seats still in. They need to be removed to carry fullsheets (GMC Safari).

[Matt Walton]

I hate to disappoint everybody, but I ended up having it cut at Lowe's, and let them do the final cut. The man helping me was extremely professional, and even managed to cut two pieces at once. For the other sheet, he actually set up a stop block, because they were all 26" until the last one, which wasn't really an important measurement. Anyway, I still need to make some more cuts myself, so I am wondering, can anybody recommend a good circular saw that doesn't cost a mint?

[Matt Walton]

I should also add that I am a southpaw. With that in mind, what side should the blade be on for me?

[Dick Bringhurst]

I'm not disappointed. I say that's great. I'm happy for you. As far as cutting the pieces yourself, the quality of the cut is more dependent on the blade you use and how you guide the saw. Get a good plywood blade and clamp a guide board to the piece being cut and go at it. In the past I've made many good cuts with a Craftsman circular saw this way.

[Matt Walton]

Just got back from the store with a DeWalt factory refurbished saw for about $97. I'm going to go out to play with my new toy, and I'll get back to you on how it is. :D

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Sounds like a great deal! Have fun with it!

[John M Wilson]

Well, I am a right hander, and I use a Porter Cable 423 with a left hand blade. For me, this is good, because it allows me to very clearly see my cut line while I handle the saw with my dominant hand (for most cuts).

Most saws are right hand blade (I'm not sure if your Dewalt is, but a huge percentage are) so that should put you in the same boat: being able to clearly see your cut line with your saw in your dominant (left) hand for most cuts.

But, ultimately, it comes down to what is safest for you, and what you get comfortable with. If this is the first time you are using a saw extensively, I would make it a point to keep both hands on the saw (most saws have a handle in front for your other hand). This will soon become habit for you, and it is by far the safest way to use the circular saw. It is very difficult to saw off your fingers when they are both on top of the saw, and surprisingly easy to cut off a couple if you adopt the very bad habit of putting your free hand in harms way. It's often good to take a "practice" cut with the saw off before the actual cut, just to make sure you won't be cutting through anything out of the ordinary, like your sawhorse, power cord, or anything else.

As a very wise man once told me: "Before we use any power tools, let's take a moment to talk about shop safety. Be sure to read, understand, and follow all the safety rules that come with your power tools. Knowing how to use your power tools properly will greatly reduce the risk of personal injury. And remember this: there is no more important safety rule than to wear these — safety glasses."

Good luck!

[Rich Engelhardt]

Just got back from the store with a DeWalt factory refurbished saw for about $97. I'm going to go out to play with my new toy, and I'll get back to you on how it is.
However it is - it's going to work a lot better if you slap a Freud 40 tooth Diablo blade on it ;).
They run about $20.00 at Home Depot.

I'm just guessing, but, the DeWalt has probably a 20 something tooth blade. That's good for general construction type cuts, but, on MDF it's a bit on the low tooth count to give you a decent cut.
While you're there, pick up some pieces of foam insulation. You put the foam on the floor and the MDF on the foam - then adjust your depth of cut so it just cuts into the foam.

Trying to cut sheet good of any type - plywood, MDF, OSB, etc. - without full support under the cutoff is both dangerous & leads to very bad results.
Been there/done that - ruined a fair amount of plywood in the process. I built a sheet goods cutting table, but, I'm old (bad knees) & you're young (probably better able to crawl around on hands and knees) ;).
Plus, making the table is a project in itself & like you say, you want some time outside of this to enjoy things.


so my dad told me that I could use the money from the savings account. So the cost of the materials more or less a null point, I'm just not sure how he would feel about using the money to buy tools as well.
I'm a little late on this but - tell your dad, "You can give a man a fish and feed him today, or teach him how to fish & he won't ever go hungry again".
Moral there is that if you invest in decent tools & take care of them, they last a long time. While a better tool won't do the job for you, it's a huge step in the direction of a successful outcome.

[Ole Anderson]

So if you weren't able to get a saw with the blade on the left, be sure to at least get a left handed blade when you head back to Lowes to get your 40 tooth blade (wink).

[Matt Walton]

Already took care of that Ole. One of my first investments. ;)
The funny part is that I was visiting my uncle in Florida last year, and we were walking through Home Depot or Lowe's, and they had a package of two Freud blades for $10. Luckily, I was checking a bag; that would have been interesting to try to carry on :D

[Jason Neal]

"You can give a man a fish and feed him today, or teach him how to fish & he won't ever go hungry again".

I'm partial to "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, but set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."

[Ole Anderson]

I'm partial to "Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, but set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life."

Jason, man that is seriously sick. Not funny.