The Gold Within...

[John Keeton]

If any of you have seen the AAW Symposium handbook available online, on page 3, under the article on the ROOTS auction, there is a pic of this Cindy Drozda piece.

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This is classic Drozda, and I really liked the concept, but I did not care for the base and finial. And, I thought all the gold was a little much. I really wanted to try my version of this - all, of course, Drozda inspired including the finial.

Big Leaf Maple burl is one of my favorite woods to turn, and to dye. So, I did a drawing, and headed to the shop to find a piece of burl that I thought would work. Since this was my first egg form, I took it a bit slow, but finally being happy with the shape, I hollowed the form to a little under 1/8" walls. The base and finial are African Blackwood.

I don't know if Cindy's piece was a natural void - but, mine is not. I opened the side with the least burl figure and created a "faux" void with an "unnatural edge", scorched the edges, and faded on a little black dye. The exterior was dyed red first, and then brown mahogany. The color was exactly what I had hoped for.

The interior was not quite as smooth as I felt it needed to be for the leaf, so I used a little Titebond filler thinned down considerably, and applied to the walls to smooth the little bit of ridges and open grain. The walls of the interior were painted black, then a deep red, leaving a band of black around the inside edge of the void so as not to show any red if the leaf did not adhere well in those areas. After applying the leaf, I applied a coat of brush on lacquer.

The finish on the exterior consists of a few coats of lacquer wiped on, then rubbed out. Then several coats of shellac, leveled out, then several coats of satin WOP, rubbed out with 600 grit and triple buffed. 6" tall x 3" wide.
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I am very pleased with the finish - except for the very small area I damaged during glue up!!!:eek::mad: It doesn't show in the pics, but it has to be repaired. That will necessitate another 2-3 coats of WOP, and buffing. Just hope this piece will withstand that at this stage, and that I end up with as good a mirror finish!:o

Your thoughts and comments are welcome.

[David E Keller]

This is a great looking piece, John, and I prefer it to the inspiration piece. It's tough to make a great egg shape, but I think you've nailed it. The finial looks a little tilted to me in the first photo, but I know it's not. The color scheme and design are first rate. Wonderful work!

[Matt Hutchinson]

Wait for it......







Wait for it.....






Egg-celent work John! :D

I love the color, and the opening is very nicely made/balanced. I especially like the pedestal, as it certainly is an improvement over Drozda's design, IMO.

Hutch

[John Hart]

I like what you've done here John. Yours has much more character than the original. But you know me...I like a little pizzazz!!

[Steve Schlumpf]

I am impressed! Beautiful form, color and leafing! Well worth the wait and the extra effort you put into it! This is some serious art John! You should be very happy with it! I am... and it's not even mine!

[Roger Chandler]

I think yours is better John..................now that might not have been possible if Drozda had not done a work in the first place.......who knows what our minds come up with.


That being said, the addition of a darker color highlighted by the gold, and then the pedestal surely adds a lot to this concept. Excellent execution of the form and the enhanced coloration just grabs ones attention. I hate to say it, but I like your finial better as well.............that does not take away from hers..........she is indeed a real artist, and does exquisite work. Is your finial ebonized or is it a natural black wood?

WoW!!! EGGS-CEPTIONAL!!!

[Dale Miner]

John,

You knocked it out of the park.

[Jim Underwood]

Love the egg, the colors, the contrast, the stand.

I'm not fond of the finial though. Seems a bit too thick at the base to me. Some other shape maybe?

Overall, I like it much better than the Drozda piece, which is too bland in value, in my opinion.

(And what is it about some of your pieces that have those eyes staring back at you? This one reminds me of a reptilian eye...)

[Tim Rinehart]

John,
I like the gold having something to contrast against. Well done.

[James Combs]

John, that is a fantastic piece of work. I love the way there seems to be a light inside the egg. There isn't one is there?

[Jim Slovik]

I like the original but I love yours. The colors are fantastic.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well now... I never really cared for that piece of Ms Drozda's. And while this one does not get me too excited either, I have to say that technically, this piece is way better. The finish is spectacular, the pedestal is a vast improvement on the "original" and the finial is "pure Keeton", perfect in form and execution. So while I may not be too excited about the design, I would give it a 12 (out of 10) in every other respect. I do agree with the doc about the finial appearing to have a slight list in the first pic...

[Tim Thiebaut]

I think this looks amazing, and as everyone here has said yours is by far better then the original piece, your base fits the work much better, and its odd that Cindy makes such great finials but this one seems to be way out of character for her, not up to par at all, yours is way better with out question. And thats just the base and finial, as for the eggs body...Cindys is to plain on the outside to go with the gold to me, while your egg is outstanding...well done John.

[Steve bellinger]

John that's just gorgeous. i also think it is better than Cindys. Not to take away from Cindys as it's great also.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

While Ms. Drozda's is nice.....

I like your version more in every way.....the woods used...the finish...the form......

Simply elegant.

[John Keeton]

Thanks, guys, for all the kind comments! This was a fun piece to do, because I had to think through the assembly prior to turning the components. The finial and the finial base will not go through the "void" opening, so they had to be turned separately and assembled in the form.

The finial looks a little tilted to me in the first photo, but I know it's not.


I do agree with the doc about the finial appearing to have a slight list in the first pic...
When I assemble these pieces, I do it on the cast iron top of my table saw and use a machinist square to "eyeball" the vertical lines, such as the finial. Although I have a makeshift tripod, when I process the pics, I use FastStone to adjust the rotation of the pic to make sure it is vertical as a whole. In doing that, there are vertical and horizontal grid lines that appear. While both of these steps (the square and the grid) seem to say the finial is vertically straight, I could be wrong. I see what you are seeing, but I believe it to be the irregular shape of the void causing an illusion.

But, this would be a good time for one of DD's Photoshop tests!! Slap a straight edge on that sucker and let's see if I messed it up! Of course, I am doubting the epoxy has much "give" in it at this point, so I would say we are stuck with what we have!:o

[Harry Robinette]

John
What can be said beautiful, Just Beautiful.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...this would be a good time for one of DD's Photoshop tests..."

Ask and ye shall receive... Lines are tangent to the bulb at the top of the finial.

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Still could be caused by camera angle. Hard to say for sure...

[Michael James]

Well, Mr Keeton I would have to agree with the above fans comments. The Drozda piece looks bland next to all the color you have going on there. Bravo! While I dont think Cindy invented the eggshape or the finial, that's a nice nod to her work for inspiration. I know that when I tackle finials, I'll be watching her videos a lot.
mj

[Richard Madden]

Very well done. The original is nice, but your's is much, much better. Excellent job, John. I love it!!

[John Beaver]

It's pretty difficult to one-up Drozda, but I think you did it here.
Your shape, colors and detail work seem to be superb.
Nice job John !!!

[John Keeton]

Thanks, again, for the generous comments. I admire Cindy's work, and I am a LOOOOOOONG way from that level of artistry!

"...this would be a good time for one of DD's Photoshop tests..."

Ask and ye shall receive... Lines are tangent to the bulb at the top of the finial.

196802

Still could be caused by camera angle. Hard to say for sure...Me thinks me knows the answer!! The base to the finial "seats" into the base for the form, and the "onion" is set into the finial base. It appears that the finial base is not seated correctly. When I set the onion I lined up the top portion of the shaft with the form base, thinking the finial base was set properly. Thanks, David - but, as noted, too late now!!

Ms. Keeton wanted a shorter finial, and had I listened (always a smart thing to do, but oh so hard at times!!), then I could have assembled the entire finial before placing it in the form, and would have avoided this situation.

Lesson learned!

[Darren Jamieson]

There is only one thing I can think to say when I look at this piece,"I have so much to learn" sorry two things, it's very inspiring, thank you for posting.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Dang John, it's beautious!!!

[Jim Burr]

Since imitation is the sincerest for of flattery...I think she should have copied yours...just MHO. I'd be interested in how you hollowed it, unless I missed it already.

[Baxter Smith]

Very nice work John! Great concept even if it wasn't yours to begin with. The outside color and the shape of the pedestal take this one above and beyond for me.

[charlie knighton]

your version is very nice, good to give Cindy credit for the idea

[Roland Martin]

This simply is an amazing work of art! From the perfectly executed egg shape and gold leaf, to the "fantastic" finish, a truly inspiring piece!!

[Cathy Schaewe]

I like yours considerably more than the model, but not nearly so much as some of your others...
that being said, please explain for those of us on the distaff side exactly why it is 'so difficult' at times to listen to Ms. Keeton? And please advise her that if she ever needs a judicial order (not enforceably in Kentucky, sorry) requiring you to listen, you do, in fact, have my phone number .....:eek::D

[Jim Underwood]

Ouch. That's just sneaky.... John they're ganging up on ya...

[Curt Fuller]

I admire Cindy's work, and I am a LOOOOOOONG way from that level of artistry!

I beg to differ Mr. Keeton. Not to take anything away from Ms Drozda's beautiful work, I think you've taken the concept to a higher level. That is absolutely beautiful!

[Scott Hackler]

John, while I give credit to Drozda for the initial concept..... the student has surpassed the "master". Your piece is so much more polished (literally!) and refined. It just has a great visual appeal.

My only super small critique might be that I would prefer a super duper thin and delicate inner-finial, maybe in a non-traditional shape. That would have given more of a shell protecting its contents... But I digress. This is a great form and you did a wonderful job on it.

[philip labre]

A fantastic piece, John!!! A gorgeous work of art.

[Jeff Moffett]

Beautiful piece, John! Thanks for the inspiration!

[Don Alexander]

the inspiration piece PALES in comparison to the piece it inspired ................. in more ways than 1

John;
i have yet to see anyones work that you have to take a back seat to ....... just saying

[John Keeton]

You folks are just way too kind!:o Thanks, again!

Scott, I did give some thought to a "non-traditional" finial, but decided on this style for a couple of reasons. First, this was Cindy's idea, and so I felt it deserved a Drozda style finial. The finial shape also picks up on the curvature of the bottom of the egg (thus the more "swelled" bulb), and I felt that was important. The neck on this finial is barely .06" - just under 1/16". I have done thinner, but not by much!!! The bulb, while it looks larger, is about 1/2" in diameter.

Cathy, I think my main difficulty in "listening to Ms. Keeton" is that she is so consistently correct on matters!!;) So irritating to be constantly reminded that I am not the master of the universe!:mad::cool: A court order might be helpful - could I get one that would order her to be wrong more often??:confused: It would do more for my fragile ego!

[Donny Lawson]

John, I wish I had half of your tallent. I've watched your work for a long time now and it has inspired me tremendously. Each time I'm blown away by what and how it is created.,and this piece is no exception. I know you live in KY and one of these days I would love to visit and learn from you since I'm not too far away. Thanks for sharing.
Donny

[Scott Hackler]

John, I missed the dimensions in your first post and didn't realize it was only 6"x3"! Wow! That dude is a lot smaller than I thought. From the pictures I would have guessed twice that size. So .....with a bulb of 1/2 that changes my perspective on the entire piece and cements the fragility of it.....in my mind. Greak work. Are you bringing this to St. Paul?

[Roger Chandler]

John, Are you bringing this to St. Paul?

I would venture to guess that if John does indeed take this to St. Paul with him, that Ms. Drozda herself will probably give him some congratulations for taking her idea to the next level...........

That would be quite a compliment!

[Scott Hackler]

.... Ms. Drozda herself will probably give him some congratulations for taking her idea to the next level...........

That would be quite a compliment!

I wouldn't 100% count on that..... I get the impression that she is a little possesive of her "designs".

[Tim Thiebaut]

I wouldn't 100% count on that..... I get the impression that she is a little possesive of her "designs".

It would be interesting to hear what her opinion of it would be...but I tend to agree with you Scott.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I get the impression that she is a little possesive of her "designs"."

I would think we all tend to be "a little possessive" (ck. yer spelling...) of our work. Ms Drozda is probably one of the most imitated turners out there. As far as I can tell, she has been very willing to share her techniques through demonstrations and DVD sales. I did come across one discussion (I don't recall where) in which a turner claimed a "signature style" that Ms Drozda contested on the basis that the signature style was a blatant imitation of her own. But this, to my way of thinking, is totally fair and justified.

When we see something that strikes out fancy and we decide to emulate it or adopt an idea from it, we are on pretty "safe" ground as long as we are willing to at least give a nod to the source. But when we claim that idea as our own and even in some cases profit from it, we enter another realm entirely. Personally I am not all that fond of Ms Drozda's style. But I do recognize her work easily and totally admire her awesome technique. I think she is completely entitled to feel protective of her work and designs.

[Roger Chandler]

I think when an artist brings a form to a point that it is highly recognized as a style they either created or perfected, then the credit is certainly deserved and should be acknowledged by others who emulate their style. Jk certainly did acknowledge Ms. Drozda in his turning and properly so in my opinion.

I agree with DD that it is appropriate for an artist to call someone on blatant plagerism, however, there are pictures in all our heads that are somewhere back in our memory, that at times come to the forefront when working at the lathe, and they develop as we turn............to some of those characteristics we owe the credit to the pictures we have seen that somehow get stored even without our knowing exactly where that image came from...............not all design can we claim as exclusive to ourselves, even if we are the most noted for it.

Just my thinking..........even artists are influenced by others work they have seen, and whether they always recognize it or not, they have been influenced at least to some degree.

[Eric Gourieux]

Beautiful!
When you dye the wood, do you apply the first color (black in this case) and then wipe off immediately? I'm working on dying some curly hard maple and would like to get a similar effect.

[Toney Robertson]

Per your usual, excellent execution and I agree with the others that say that yours is an advancement to the original.

[John Keeton]

Cindy's work has obviously been a significant influence on me in my short journey with this turning thing. When I became interested in the artsy stuff, Keith Burns was fairly active here on the creek, and he was the primary source for my initial study of finials/pedestals. From there, I searched around for others whose style appealed to me. Cindy's DVDs were the next step, and so I do credit her not only with the inspiration for this piece, but also for a good bit of my "instruction" - such as it is. I was not exposed to other turners until more recently, and could not take lessons from anyone, so the internet and videos were my only source. Cindy is clearly a prominent force in the turning world and deserves the credit she gets.

As to the origination of forms/finials/etc., if one looks far enough nearly all of this stuff has been done before - either in architecture, pottery, drawings, etc. - going back centuries. I think it is the accumulation of elements into a "signature style" that places one in a more recognizable position. Here on the creek, David D., and John Hart both have developed a very individualized "style" even though the individual components of their work may not be original to them. Someday, I hope to find that niche, but in order to do that I think one needs to concentrate on one particular form, developing all of the nuances, etc. of the form. David and John both have done that, and their work shows it.


I know you live in KY and one of these days I would love to visit and learn from you since I'm not too far away. Thanks for sharing.
DonnyDonny, I am not sure I have much to pass on, but you are welcome anytime!


Are you bringing this to St. Paul?Scott, I had not planned on taking any of my work except the one piece I donated to our club for our entry in the Turning 25 event. But, if you have an interest in seeing it, I certainly don't mind taking it.

[Scott Hackler]

John, I wouldn't mind seeing ANY of your work.....in person! So if you have a notion to drag anything along, I would encourage that notion. :) I assume that means that you aren't entering 3 things in the instant gallery. :(

[John Keeton]

I apologize for not responding to Eric's question! I had compiled most of the reply I just posted, and Ms. Keeton called me away for some assistance on a chore. It was quite a while before I got back to hit the Post Reply icon!

Eric, on this piece I did not use black first, though that is a technique I have done a few times. BLM burl dyes considerably different than does eastern curly maple - it is softer and much more absorptive. And, it is generally a little darker to begin with. I knew that when I used the darker Red Mahogany (Transtint) that I would get a lot of darkening in the soft areas, so I used the bright red first, let it dry, then applied the red mahogany. Had I used black, I would have needed to sand back the form considerably, and even then, it would have been too dark for what I wanted.

Also, someone asked about how this was hollowed. I cut a piece of burl in a cylinder shape and turned it between centers to establish a tenon on the end that would have been closest to the bark of the tree, as that would be the top. Then I hollowed through the other end with a 7/8" hole that became the female for the tenon on the blackwood base. I shaped the form leaving a little bit of extra wood at the top. Then the form was hollowed, and the top/tip turned off, essentially parting off the egg. That left a very small nub that was hand sanded off. For hollowing, I used the Monster rig.

[David DeCristoforo]

I have to say, John, that you have absolutely developed a recognizable style. There is a quality to all your pieces that says "John Keeton". If you were to post a piece under a pseudonym, people would instantly recognize it as yours. There are influences for sure. Keith's and Cindy's influence is obvious. But you have developed a way of putting things together that is totally your own. Additionally, that recognizable quality extends over a broad range and has not been limited to one particular type of form. And I have never known you to not give credit where it is due.

[Curt Fuller]

"I get the impression that she is a little possesive of her "designs"."

I would think we all tend to be "a little possessive" (ck. yer spelling...) of our work. Ms Drozda is probably one of the most imitated turners out there. As far as I can tell, she has been very willing to share her techniques through demonstrations and DVD sales. I did come across one discussion (I don't recall where) in which a turner claimed a "signature style" that Ms Drozda contested on the basis that the signature style was a blatant imitation of her own. But this, to my way of thinking, is totally fair and justified.

When we see something that strikes out fancy and we decide to emulate it or adopt an idea from it, we are on pretty "safe" ground as long as we are willing to at least give a nod to the source. But when we claim that idea as our own and even in some cases profit from it, we enter another realm entirely. Personally I am not all that fond of Ms Drozda's style. But I do recognize her work easily and totally admire her awesome technique. I think she is completely entitled to feel protective of her work and designs.
I also recall the discussion, if I'm thinking of the same one it was about a piece that Robin Costelle posted on WOW. I thought Robin handled it very graciously giving ample credit to Ms Drozda while still holding his ground on his variation of the style. At the time, and now still, I think that anyone who posts their work on the WWW. for the world to see, admire, inflate their ego, and otherwise subject themselves to the admiration or criticism of other woodturners is opening the door for copying, plagiarism, or whatever you like to call it. As John K. mentioned, if we look deep and hard enough we'll always find that someone has done something very similar to what we think is our own creative idea. But Ms Drozda's situation is entirely different. She teaches, sells DVDs teaching here techniques and styles, and does paid demos. Isn't the point in all of that to pass along what you know and your techniques used in creating your work. Why then would you then feel possessive of your style after going to such lengths to market it?

[Kathy Marshall]

An exceptional piece John! I love the whole thing, but I really love the color on the outside, outstanding!

[Michelle Rich]

Hi John, FIRST S-t-u-n-n-i-n-g !!! 2nd; the most amazing part is the unnatural void. Your attempt is amazing. Burning the edges just took it up another notch. A superb little piece. Cindy is sweating!

[David DeCristoforo]

"Isn't the point in all of that to pass along what you know and your techniques used in creating your work. Why then would you then feel possessive of your style after going to such lengths to market it?"

Well, yes and no.

I used to write articles for magazines (remember magazines?) describing how to build pieces of furniture I designed. I was fully aware of the fact that there would be people who would build (or "copy") the pieces. And yes, the intent was to "pass along" the knowledge, to teach the techniques and to encourage others to stretch their abilities and learn to create objects of beauty that would enhance their lives and give them a feeling of satisfaction.

One of these pieces later appeared on the web site of another "well known" woodworker. This was such a unique design and such an exact copy that the "plagiarism" was impossible to miss. It was presented as his own design and offered for sale. This was not the intent of either myself or the publishers of the magazine.

I am sure you can see the difference between these two scenarios. I am not attempting to pass judgement on Mr. Costelle whose work I greatly admire or to defend Ms Drozda's position. I'm simply saying that when an artist shows his or her work in any venue, it does not constitute de facto permission for anyone to copy, claim authorship of or profit from that work.

"Influence" is a whole different thing. Much of what we see in the world today is the result of people building on the work of others who preceded them. There is a natural process of evolution that depends on not having to continually "reinvent the wheel". It would be absurd to claim that anyone who showed a hollow form turning was "copying" David Ellsworth. But most of us are happy to give Mr Ellsworth credit for pioneering the form. Keith Burns, Andy Di Petro, "our own" Mr Schlumpf, are among many who have taken this form to new heights, developing an unmistakable and instantly recognizable style. But none of them have ever, to my knowledge, offered an exact copy of an Ellsworth piece as their own. John Keeton began this thread by stating that he was, in effect, copying a Drozda piece. He did not post this as his own inspiration and claim authorship. The fact that he offered a piece that in every way surpasses the original is testament to the point I am trying to make here.

Sorry to go on so and I don't mean to deflect attention form John's piece or usurp this thread. Maybe this discussion should have it's own thread...

[Harvey Ghesser]

Outstanding, John. Just beautiful...

[Alan Trout]

John,

Very nice work. I really like the way you opened up your egg and to me it looks very natural which is the amazing part of the piece. I love the gold leaf. I have a piece I am working on that I am planning to silver leaf the interior. I have never worked with metal leaf but I will figure it out. For me the most impressive part of the piece was your planning of the piece the methods you had to use to get to a successful finished product. This is a sign of a Craftsman and a Artist.

Well Done

Alan

[Frank Drew]

Super work, John; great choice of wood and execution.

I've never heard of Cindy Drozda before but this thread makes me a bit uncomfortable on her behalf, not due to the obvious similarity between the two pieces, but because she's not here as part of this discussion, and her work, from one not very good photo, is getting the short end of the critiques.

I'm not saying that the discussion as such has been unfair -- if you offer your work for public attention you have to accept any opinions that come your way -- just that we can perhaps give John all the credit he's due without saying, over and over and over, how much better it is than Ms. Drozda's piece. That's all; it just made me feel a bit for her.