European Combination Machine

[ben searight]

I recently got back into woodworking after not having the space for it for several years. I have been looking at equipment and had basically decided on a Saw Stop and stand alone jointer, planer, shaper etc. I love the concept of a sliding table saw because of its accuracy but I don’t have the space for a large slider and the other necessary equipment. I came across some combination machines online and they piqued my interest. I looked primarily at the machines from Mini Max, Felder and Hammer. Does anyone have any experience with these?
I had budgeted about $11,000 to buy a TS, shaper, jointer and a planer for the shop. What can I get for the same price in a combination machine?
I’d like at least an 8’ slider so I could process 4x8 sheet goods.
Also, I’m not that concerned about production rates, changeover times, etc. as this is strictly a hobby. My primary concern is accuracy and quality.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

[Will Boulware]

Hammer is running a sale right now (I think it's still on.) Your $11,000 would get you a surprising amount of stuff, more than your list includes. I've never heard a cross word about their machinery.

*For the record, I don't own a Hammer machine. I will, one day (dadgum lottery numbers won't hit...), but I currently have no affiliation with the company or any experience with their products. Nice people to talk to though.

[Jeff Monson]

Ben, Here is my recommendation. 1st off call Felder and talk with them about your needs, they are very friendly and do not apply the "high pressure sales" technique. I know they have a great special on buying 2 hammer machines, a J/P and a Saw/shaper. I'd highly recommend going this route, I own a separate jointer/planer combo and a saw/slider combo. The Hammer A3-31 is a GREAT machine for the money, it has been recently been updated also, the B3 winner is also a really nice saw/shaper machine. I was fortunate enough to locate a used Felder KF700 for my saw/shaper, there has not been a day that I regret the purchase. I'd look into the used market also, I know there is a KF700 on ebay that has a buy it now for $8500.00 which is a sweet deal, he started at $13k a month ago. Felder also has a used machine market too. If you are going to buy new, make sure to configure the saw carefully as there are a ton of optioins to consider.

Felder has some really nice videos to watch 1st off. 2nd call them just to visit, you will not regret the call.

[David Kumm]

The felder 700 series and the MM are fairly equivalent. Next down is felder500 series which has hammer guts with x roll table, next down is hammer. You can find used felders and MM in good condition because most are from hobbyists rather than high volume shops. There is currently a knapp combo for sale < 10,000. Knapp isn't made anymore but is at least step up from felder and MM and light years ahead of others in build quality. I would take a used knapp or felder before a new hammer, but that is just me. Saw shaper is a good combo, I'm less enthused about the jointer planer combo. Make sure you have the room. An eight foot slider is a lot to walk around unless you do mainly cabinet work. By the way I have felder and knapp for comparison. Dave

[Chris Padilla]

I have a Minimax J/P combo: FS-41Elite: 410 mm wide jointer/planer (~16"). It literally is an aircraft carrier. I love it and it saves me space in my 2-car garage-mahal. I really am not sure how things would be with a separate jointer and planer. As it is, I wish I had a 3-car garage.

[Mike Ruggeri]

Personally I don't think you could go wrong with machines from any of the brands that you mentioned as they are all top quality.

Like you, I only do ww for a hobby and change over times are not a big concern so the combo works well for me. I really won't recommend going with a smaller slider than 8ft as when I first got mine I questioned whether or not I should have got a smaller slider but after using it for the past year I see I made the right decision. I have a relatively small shop (really just half of the garage) and with some thoughtful placement the bigger slider really isn't a problem. I also have my combo on casters so moving it if needed isn't a problem (although it generally stays in the same place). I think you will find the fit, finish and accuracy of these machines to be fantastic. Definitely get one with either quick change jointer/planer blades or a Bird type head - changing blades in minutes is really nice. Also, try to see what accessories are "must haves" or otherwise not available for you to add at a future point. The accessories can add significantly to the price.

Good luck and let us know if you have any more questions.

Mike

[Brian Deakin]

Robert Ingram who is a renowned English craftsman has a Felder combination machine .So if cost was not a consideration Felder is the answer


See website www.robertinghamdesigns.com has pictures Mr Inham,s multifunction machine

regards Brian

[Mark Denovich]

Change over time is minimal. Accuracy is phenomenal. Not having to imagine sawing my fingers off pushing a board past a blade (as on a regular table saw) is priceless. Combo machines are very easy to love.

[Robert LaPlaca]

I will second the notion that I don't believe you can go too far wrong with any of the machines from the companies you listed..

I personally own a Minimax FS-41 Elite jointer/planer, I just love the machine, not too much not too like.. If I had to buy a tablesaw all over again I think I would be all over something like a Minimax SC4 Elite as a replacement for my Unisaw.. Had separate jointer and planers and never missed them after getting the FS-41...

[ben searight]

Thanks for the advice everybody. Jeff....the Felder on Ebay is down to $8K, not bad considering thats about what I'd have in a new saw stop ICS and a 5hp shaper.

I have another question.....why does Hammer have several models of saws and combos with an 80" slide. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me, am I missing something? Seems like it would be 4' or 8', what is the purpose of a 6 1/2' slide?

[David Kumm]

I use a lot of baltic birch- because I can lift it. Being space limited my 2 meter slider handles those sheets well. With the scorer you need extra range. My knapp will rip an 8' sheet with the 2M slider with minor modifications and an add on extension so it serves me when needed. Keep in mind that older felders have no dado capacity and even the ones that do are not quite as handy as a dado on a regular saw. The knapp on CL includes the JP at sub 10000. Saw shapers will often go for less than 8000. Condition is worth some extra $$. There are also manufacturing differences in felders over the years. 7 series in late 90's were heavier, 700 series in about 2001 cheapened them a little but subsequent improvements brought them back some. Post 2007 and pre 2000 7 series are my favorites but it is more subjective than objective. Sort of like Jaguar E type series 1, 1.5 or 2. I like cars but machinery is cheaper. Dave

[Jim Becker]

There are many of us "out here" that own various types of Euro combo machines from MiniMax, Felder/Hammer, etc. They are not for everyone, but for those of use who have embraced them, they really fill the need we felt we had. My first MiniMax purchase was a 350mm/14" J/P combo. I love it. One of their bandsaws came next, although that obviously isn't a combo machine. ;) My needs didn't warrant a full shaper, nor the cost to include it in a "true" Slider/shaper combo, so I bought a very nice MM sliding table saw and added my own router based station to it using a cast iron top from BenchDog. (There's a detailed thread on that here) These three workstations are the heart of my shop when it comes to sizing and shaping material for my projects. The space savings and big capacity of the J/P were a major plus for me as I happen to love working with wide boards but really don't have the space for "big separates".

I didn't consider a full combo because my shop couldn't support that configuration due to some building features. So the J/P and slider/router worked best for me. Zero regrets. Pleasurable woodworking environment for me.

[Eric McCune]

I own a felder cf531. I have only been using it for a couple months but it has exceeded my high expectations. The precision of the slider makes woodworking really fun. I can get perfect, square dimensions every time. The ability to do crosscuts using the slider really changes the way i work It's perfect for my 16x18 shop even with the outrigger and a full sheet of plywood. I agree with others that have suggested calling felder to discuss your needs. They are great to work with.

[C Scott McDonald]

Thanks for the advice everybody. Jeff....the Felder on Ebay is down to $8K, not bad considering thats about what I'd have in a new saw stop ICS and a 5hp shaper.

I have another question.....why does Hammer have several models of saws and combos with an 80" slide. Doesn't make a bit of sense to me, am I missing something? Seems like it would be 4' or 8', what is the purpose of a 6 1/2' slide?

Hammer is geared more towards the Hobby market. People use a slider to rip solid woods too. I have a Hammer with a short slider and love it. I have the crosscut of slider and the ripping of a cabinet saw. You really need to consider how much sheet goods you are going to work with. An 8ft slider is a big saw and ripping on an big slider is noting like a cabinet saw.

They also started selling the new and improved Hammer jointer/planer where the infeed and outfeed table lift together and they added a bracket to the fence to take all the flex out of it.

As Jeff mentioned call Felder they are really good to work with.

Good Luck,
Scott

[Jeff Monson]

Hammer is geared more towards the Hobby market. People use a slider to rip solid woods too. I have a Hammer with a short slider and love it. I have the crosscut of slider and the ripping of a cabinet saw. You really need to consider how much sheet goods you are going to work with. An 8ft slider is a big saw and ripping on an big slider is noting like a cabinet saw.
Scott

That is very well said, there are a ton of woodworkers out there that rarely break down sheet goods. Its nice to have that 8' capacity.....but you pay for it in real estate.

I'm not sure how far you are from VA, but that KF700S is a REALLY good deal. If you read the ad it comes with alot of accessories and some (like the planer head, and shaper spindles, add up very fast). It also includes a Kay phase converter and a Felder dust collector. (just some more food for thought)

[David Kumm]

Jeff is correct. Accessories really ad up. Extra spindles are important and Kay makes a great RPC. Don't be afraid of three phase. Once you go three you won't go back. Trying to source used accessories and rpc, dust collector etc gets difficult and the freight sucks so getting it together is a big deal. The type of woodworking really does influence the type of saw. If I never did cabinet work I would have a short slider- even a hammond trim saw- and a regular TS. Dave

[Ray DuBose]

I have a Hammer A3 31 with a Byrd Head and a Hammer K3 Winner that I love. When I was doing my research most of what I found is that the Hammer Line is geared for Hobbyist and are very Solid Built Machines. Felders are a beefier machine but that's because they are usually put in a shop where someone is slamming down 3/4 mdf all day and not taking care of the saw as well. Both have Quality Cuts. I was watching a shop tour with Chris Schwarz and he has a Hammer A3 31 in his home shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Ben, I traded a shop full of General machinery for a Hammer A3-31 jointer/planer and a Hammer B3 Winner saw/shaper.

I couldn't be happier, I have more capacity and capabilities than the separates had, with far less floor space used.

The B3 I bought has the 51" sliding table, perfect for me as it will crosscut a sheet of plywood, while retaining the ergonomics of a cabinet saw.

The sliding table/tilting spindle 4 HP shaper with tilt away power feeder is incredible, and of course requires no extra floor space.

Same for the 12" jointer, with planer, how many basement townhouse shops could ever have a conventional 12" jointer?

There are many options, which are available only at time of purchase (such as a scoring saw), with a vast array of accessories that can be purchased at any time.

The Hammer/Felder machines have the ability to be as large or as small as you want, at that moment. Need to handle a large piece? Clip on a couple of extension rails, put the outrigger back on and you have a large machine with a minute or two conversion time.

If you're mostly working on small pieces, remove the extension tables and outrigger, now you have a small slider with great ergonomics.

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/the-complete-workshop.html?videosgruppen_id=0

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/hammer-b3-winner.html?videosgruppen_id=0

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/hammer-a3-series.html?videosgruppen_id=0

The above videos will give you a good idea of what you can do with a combo............Rod.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I've used an old industrial shaper before and liked using a power feeder with it because I didn't want to go anywhere near those huge spinning cutter heads. For this reason I am looking at a standalone shaper I can permanently mount a power feeder to and leave it setup against a wall.

For the tablesaw, I ordered the largest Hammer K3W and am still waiting for it due to the long lead times for a machine to be built in Austria. Expect an over the top review in the near future.

I've used a Hammer A3-31 for over a year and boy is it well made. I feel as though it would be suitable for even a small cabinet shop for it holds its settings very well and performs very consistent. I used to have two lunchbox planers but I ended up selling them along with my Delta 6" deluxe jointer and will never look back.

You don't have to jump on the Hammer/Felder bandwagon right away though and can consider your options to be Minimax, Rojek, Laguna, and Grizzly for they all make "euro" style combination machines. Do your research on the internet, check craigslist and used machine websites.

Then let us know when you put your order in for the hammer machines... j/k