return of the noob: japanese wetstones help, pt. II

[miguel bernardo]

Hi all and thanks for reading.

With the kind help of many of you, i have just bought and received my first japanese waterstones set. i´ve bought a shapton pro 320 and 1000 stones (japanese versions, for the speed and wear resistance) and a naniwa 8000 superstone (for that polished feel). i do still intend to buy an intermediate grit stone (maybe a 3000),but that´s a question for a future thread. regarding the stones i have already, my main questions are:

- i presume that i´ll have to soak the 320 shapton for a couple of minutes before using it, right? and afterwards, when it feels dry after some passes, do i have to put it again in water or just a spritz over it should be enough?

- what about the shapton 1000? does it need to be soaked before use, or just passed through running water?

- as for the the naniwa, i presume just a quick spraying of water will get the job done, but - again - i could be wrong on this.

please excuse me if these are too obvious questions, but i am new to both sharpening and waterstones (only polished an handful of plane blades on oilstones) and the few instructions that came with my stones are in japanese.

thanks in advance for your time,
Miguel.

[David Weaver]

All of those stones can be used without soaking.

Most of us on here can't read japanese, but Schtoo says that shapton says something about soaking their stones in their literature.

It's important to keep enough water on the surface of the stones to keep them from glazing, but that can be done by shorter tool strokes on the stone. No soaking is needed for any of them. it'd be interesting to see if they are helped by it, but a stone that does need soaked, like a bester, is a much much different feel and it's not usable for any length of time without water in it.

I've never soaked any shaptons, from 220 to 15000. Same with the superstones, they're intended to be used without soaking.

If you are hollow grinding or using microbevels, you will get along very well with the 1000 and 8000 stones for almost everything.

[miguel bernardo]

thanks a lot David, for a superfast and concise answer!

another thing that has just crossed my mind: is the water type important? i live in a placed where water is very nice, with few minerals, but am moving to another place this summer where the water is heavily mineralized. will it be OK?

cheers,
Miguel.

[Terry Beadle]

David's advice is spot on. One suggestion though is to get a 3000 ~ 4000 grit stone as an intermediate step between the 1000 and 8000 but it's not required.

Personally, I would soak the 320 and 1000 for just 5 min as I think that would help keep the stones wetter for a while. You will have to spritz some water on the stones as you use them. The 8000 won't require as much water but the other two will. Be sure to use a nagera stone on the 8000.

I don't think water quality will be an issue. If you flatten your stones properly that will keep the cutting surfaces free of any normal residues.

I was wondering what you will use to flatten your stones? Did you get an xtra coarse DMT or will you use your next lowes grit stone to keep the next highter one flat....or a granite surface with wet/dry sandpaper?

[David Weaver]

Yeah, makes no difference (what's in the water). You'll gradually be wearing the top layer off the stone (very slowly) and I would assume anything that's in the water will just sit on the top of the stone when the water evaporates, to be removed with the swarf later. The stones you mentioned are all smooth cutting stones, so you won't need to add anything to the water, either. Higher grit shaptons (5000+) can be a bit of a trick to use when you first get them because of stiction, but the naniwa stones are smoother using and softer.

The only stones I've ever seen anyone concered about regarding water quality or contents are extremely expensive pre WWII natural japanese waterstones.

[miguel bernardo]

I was wondering what you will use to flatten your stones? Did you get an xtra coarse DMT or will you use your next lowes grit stone to keep the next highter one flat....or a granite surface with wet/dry sandpaper?Hi! i am planning of going the wet/dry sandpaper and a veritas lapping plate route plus, maybe, some silicon carbide powder. don´t know if it´s good enough, but it´s cheap enough and more reproducible than rubbing two stones together, i suppose. again, correct me if i am wrong.

cheers,
Miguel.

[miguel bernardo]

good to know about the water. i don´t plan to use extremely expensive pre WWII natural japanese waterstones anyway... :)

thanks,
Miguel.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...It's important to keep enough water on the surface of the stones to keep them from glazing, but that can be done by shorter tool strokes on the stone....

I don't understand this, seems to me the small area defined by the short tool strokes would be glazed quite quickly, assuming the stone is glazable at all.

Pam

[Tony Shea]

Higher grit shaptons (5000+) can be a bit of a trick to use when you first get them because of stiction, but the naniwa stones are smoother using and softer.


So David, what is the trick in getting by stiction? I seem to come across that issue quite often with my Naniwa SS 8000 when polsihing the backs of any of my plane irons. Sometimes the 5000 does as well but not as bad. Sometimes prevents me from even being able to get a good polish on the back and get annoyed and give up. Just rotate the blade in an arc for a bit and call it good when its really stichtioning (not sure if this is a word) badly. Id love to overcome this.

[David Weaver]

Maybe i'll make a video sometime (I say that all the time and I never do). What I mean by that is instead of a full length stroke that goes from one end of the stone to the other (pushing all of the liquid off the surface and over the side), do strokes about an inch long, moving up the stone a couple of millimeters with each stroke until you've gone from end to the other. Seems to push and pull the water on the surface of the stone better without just shoving it off the side.

Someone else has probably written that somewhere, but I figured out not too long ago that you can ride a shapton stone pretty hard and not have it glaze over by doing that. If you do long strokes, a 1000 shapton gets glazed over with dry swarf pretty quickly.

Once I started looking around, I noticed a lot of people sharpening japanese irons on their fine stones that way. I don't think that's for the same reason (more for control, especially on skippy stones), but the benefit of keeping the swarf and water on the stone is still there.

[David Weaver]

So David, what is the trick in getting by stiction? I seem to come across that issue quite often with my Naniwa SS 8000 when polsihing the backs of any of my plane irons. Sometimes the 5000 does as well but not as bad. Sometimes prevents me from even being able to get a good polish on the back and get annoyed and give up. Just rotate the blade in an arc for a bit and call it good when its really stichtioning (not sure if this is a word) badly. Id love to overcome this.

I use short strokes, and i've seen derek say several times that he puts a little bit of dishsoap in his water. I haven't put in enough soap to make a difference yet, but the short strokes work well, especially if pressure is on the heavy side (like when you're flattening the back of an iron).

[Pam Niedermayer]

What I mean by that is instead of a full length stroke that goes from one end of the stone to the other (pushing all of the liquid off the surface and over the side), do strokes about an inch long, moving up the stone a couple of millimeters with each stroke until you've gone from end to the other. Seems to push and pull the water on the surface of the stone better without just shoving it off the side....

Thanks, perfectly clear.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

So David, what is the trick in getting by stiction? I seem to come across that issue quite often with my Naniwa SS 8000 when polsihing the backs of any of my plane irons. Sometimes the 5000 does as well but not as bad. Sometimes prevents me from even being able to get a good polish on the back and get annoyed and give up. Just rotate the blade in an arc for a bit and call it good when its really stichtioning (not sure if this is a word) badly. Id love to overcome this.

Tony, aren't you the one who recommended I gouge out the Shaptons?

Pam

[Stuart Tierney]

You don't need to soak any of them. The Shaptons might be happier if they're wetter than 'just a squirt', but they shouldn't be actually 'soaked'.

I make pretty big jumps when sharpening most of the time, but I'd never jump from a 1K Shapton (fast, aggressive and coarse) to an 8K Naniwa superstone (slow, timid and fine). Almost polar opposites in sharpening, and even with hollow grinding or microbevels, it's a massive jump. Almost any other 8K stone can dig deep enough to get the job done, but the Naniwa, good luck!?!

If you're using a sharpening guide, then you might get away with it. I don't trust myself to keep a small microbevel that accurate for long enough to let the Naniwa get the job done.


Take everything else you've read here and take note of it. All of it is reasonable and valid, especially David's advise about glazing. You're about to become VERY familiar with what glazing is, and how to get rid of it.

Otherwise, I've got nothing else for you. I think I've mentioned before I sell stones, but if I saw your order, I'd say "thank you for your order, are you sure you want to do this?" Just a really poor matching of stones.

Sorry.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

I don't know, hollow grinding and I never had an issue following a shapton 1k with a 12k superstone. I didn't use the superstone too much because it was a duplicate of the shapton, but it worked fine following the 1k shapton when I did.

I forgot one other thing that allows you to make those big jumps. well, two things.

1. I will generally zing a chisel across the baldor once every two honings, or three if they have been light honings. It is always plugged in and takes less than 5 seconds to start up, another 5 to make a pass or two and remove almost all of the flats that have developed - no need for dipping or water or anything. I almost never make more than two strokes on the 1k stone with new grind. And as few as possible on following honings after that to raise a wire edge. The grinder is too good at metal removal to dawdle with stones doing much of it.

2. when making a big jump, i make almost all of the strokes on the finish stone with side strokes. I saw HS's video once, and I like the side sharpening on high stiction stones or on coarse stones with something with a fat bevel (like a japanese iron), but I always make the last few strokes in the direction of the cut. I think there is plenty of evidence (and it's been general consensus for a long time - it's even in odate's book) to support the final scratches being in the direction of the cut rather than parallel to it. BUT side sharpening is definitely easier on high stiction stones to get you right before those final few strokes (i.e., you can use it to remove all of the 1k stone scratches). Reduces the chance tons that you'll roll the edge a little with a coarser stone. If you roll it a tiny bit putting the scratches on in the direction you want to with the final stone, it doesn't matter like it would with earlier stones.

This is relevant discussion for A2, D2, and O1, as well as old cast steel tools and the common white steel (japanese) tools that don't have an obnoxiously thick hard steel. The naniwa SS line cuts those things pretty easily. Coming from kings, I never was tempted to get a SS stone in 1k, though - i *hate* soft 1000 stones. as soon as they get a bit out of flat, they make a convex bevel on a tool making the part you want to sharpen harder to get to. I have totally quit using soft natural mid-grit stones on my japanese tools because of that.

Stu and I have much different opinions about stones. I could never give up my hard stones. The only thing they don't cut well is HSS, but I don't use stones for that, anyway, because you can sharpen it almost totally without regard to heat.

[Tony Shea]

Tony, aren't you the one who recommended I gouge out the Shaptons?

Pam


Was certainly not I that gave out this advise. Does that mean putting a few fairly deep scratches along the length of the stone? Makes sense that this would help keep a flat surface against a flat surface some sort of break to avoid the stiction. Nothing that I would personally want to do to my stone though.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu and I have much different opinions about stones. I could never give up my hard stones. The only thing they don't cut well is HSS, but I don't use stones for that, anyway, because you can sharpen it almost totally without regard to heat.


Actually, not really.

I prefer hard stones for tools, but I'm not married to my Shaptons. ;)

I'm not saying that the Shapton professional stones are not good because they are quite good and they work quite well and are not too expensive all in the bargain. It's not like we're comparing them to Choseras or something like that.

What really bugs me is that there's not enough material in them (15mm thick), they do have problems in use, the higher grits do benefit from soaking (contrary to all the propaganda), they're singing a different tune grit wise (they're coarser than the number states compared to most other stones) and to be perfectly honest, they're not that fast either.

What they do have going for them is they're very well known in the English speaking world and they're common so there's a large base for which information about them can be sourced. That's a really big benefit for the general user.


I have blades, I have stones, I have video camera. I suppose another "here's how it really is" video is required. Whaddya think? Words are just that, pretty hard to refute video though. Even my really poor video...

(I'll play nice and leave the Select II packed safely away.)

Good to hear the 12K Superstone can drag a 1K Shapton edge up though. Probably not to my own liking, but if it'll do it, good.

Stu.


(Hey Dave, I wonder what the rest of these folks think of these sparring sessions, out here in public?)

[Pam Niedermayer]

Was certainly not I that gave out this advise. Does that mean putting a few fairly deep scratches along the length of the stone? Makes sense that this would help keep a flat surface against a flat surface some sort of break to avoid the stiction. Nothing that I would personally want to do to my stone though.

It was someone named Tony, couple or three years ago. Anyhow, gouging channels would cure stiction (I didn't want to do it to my stones either) or, as has been said, Derek adds a little soap in the water. Also, I only experienced stiction with western blades, the hollow on Japanese blades provides a stiction free sharpening event.

Pam

[Stuart Tierney]

It was someone named Tony, couple or three years ago. Anyhow, gouging channels would cure stiction (I didn't want to do it to my stones either) or, as has been said, Derek adds a little soap in the water. Also, I only experienced stiction with western blades, the hollow on Japanese blades provides a stiction free sharpening event.

Pam

Hmm...

I've been testing something of late that might help the stiction thing on Shaptons, but haven't tried it with the Shaptons yet.

It's not soap, but it does change the feel of the water...

Stu.

[David Weaver]

(Hey Dave, I wonder what the rest of these folks think of these sparring sessions, out here in public?)

They probably think we're lightweights!

[Stuart Tierney]

Yer probably right. :)

[David Weaver]

Isn't there an additive for water called "water wet" or something like that?

I couldn't find anything online, but I recall it being an additive that reduces surface tension.

[David Weaver]

never mind. The product I was thinking of is called waterwetter, and it's for automotive use apparently not related to surface tension.

[Stuart Tierney]

"water wet" would be soap. Stuff I've been sent is from the UK, and not for wetting, makes the water greasy feeling. Not seriously, but noticeable. I haven't noticed any difference with it using soaking stones yet, but I've not got through them all yet either. And still need to see what it does with the non-soakers and the 'fragile' stones.

Still early stages with the stuff, and I'll be offloading a bit of it to folks here and see what they say as well.

Stu.

[miguel bernardo]

You don't need to soak any of them. The Shaptons might be happier if they're wetter than 'just a squirt', but they shouldn't be actually 'soaked'.

I make pretty big jumps when sharpening most of the time, but I'd never jump from a 1K Shapton (fast, aggressive and coarse) to an 8K Naniwa superstone (slow, timid and fine). Almost polar opposites in sharpening, and even with hollow grinding or microbevels, it's a massive jump. Almost any other 8K stone can dig deep enough to get the job done, but the Naniwa, good luck!?!

If you're using a sharpening guide, then you might get away with it. I don't trust myself to keep a small microbevel that accurate for long enough to let the Naniwa get the job done.


Take everything else you've read here and take note of it. All of it is reasonable and valid, especially David's advise about glazing. You're about to become VERY familiar with what glazing is, and how to get rid of it.

Otherwise, I've got nothing else for you. I think I've mentioned before I sell stones, but if I saw your order, I'd say "thank you for your order, are you sure you want to do this?" Just a really poor matching of stones.

Sorry.

Stu.

Hi stu, and thanks for the input.

First. as i said in an earlier thread (i don´t know if you remember it), i´m sorry i did not buy the stones from you - i really am: i appreciate your help here in the forums and your blog, they have been much helpful - but where i live (Portugal, EU) heavy imports from abroad (specially USA and tech-y asia) are always subject to import tax (23% VAT + 5 to 10 % some other tax i can´t translate + customs fees) and you will still have to deal with the import paperwork yourself - it would be too much hassle. it can be OK - still a risk - with small packages up to 1 kilogram, though.

as for the big jump from the shapton 1k to the naniwa ss 8k, i had some conflicting info available to my not much ripe understanding and, helped by the previous thread here, i decided to take the plunge - bearing in mind i could still need an intermediate stone in the future. goodnews: since my birthday is in a few days, my good wife has bought me (without my knowledge) an naniwa 5k ss. do you think that would be a viable solution (shapton 1k -> 5k ss -> 8k ss)? as i said, all this is rather new to me.

cheers,
Miguel.

[miguel bernardo]

I don't know, hollow grinding and I never had an issue following a shapton 1k with a 12k superstone. I didn't use the superstone too much because it was a duplicate of the shapton, but it worked fine following the 1k shapton when I did.

I forgot one other thing that allows you to make those big jumps. well, two things.

1. I will generally zing a chisel across the baldor once every two honings, or three if they have been light honings. It is always plugged in and takes less than 5 seconds to start up, another 5 to make a pass or two and remove almost all of the flats that have developed - no need for dipping or water or anything. I almost never make more than two strokes on the 1k stone with new grind. And as few as possible on following honings after that to raise a wire edge. The grinder is too good at metal removal to dawdle with stones doing much of it.

2. when making a big jump, i make almost all of the strokes on the finish stone with side strokes. I saw HS's video once, and I like the side sharpening on high stiction stones or on coarse stones with something with a fat bevel (like a japanese iron), but I always make the last few strokes in the direction of the cut. I think there is plenty of evidence (and it's been general consensus for a long time - it's even in odate's book) to support the final scratches being in the direction of the cut rather than parallel to it. BUT side sharpening is definitely easier on high stiction stones to get you right before those final few strokes (i.e., you can use it to remove all of the 1k stone scratches). Reduces the chance tons that you'll roll the edge a little with a coarser stone. If you roll it a tiny bit putting the scratches on in the direction you want to with the final stone, it doesn't matter like it would with earlier stones.

This is relevant discussion for A2, D2, and O1, as well as old cast steel tools and the common white steel (japanese) tools that don't have an obnoxiously thick hard steel. The naniwa SS line cuts those things pretty easily. Coming from kings, I never was tempted to get a SS stone in 1k, though - i *hate* soft 1000 stones. as soon as they get a bit out of flat, they make a convex bevel on a tool making the part you want to sharpen harder to get to. I have totally quit using soft natural mid-grit stones on my japanese tools because of that.

Stu and I have much different opinions about stones. I could never give up my hard stones. The only thing they don't cut well is HSS, but I don't use stones for that, anyway, because you can sharpen it almost totally without regard to heat.

David, once more, thanks for such a nice and detailed answer. but i have a bit of a problem understanding it fully - language barriers should be to blame, i suppose.

on point 1, what do you mean by "zing a chisel across the baldor" - i don�t know what this means is it the baldor some kind of machine you use between honings?

on point 2, you�re telling me to use side honing ONLY on the finishing stone, if i understood correctly? i tend to use side strokes when free-hand sharpening, because i find it easier to mantain the bevel angle. you mean i shouldn�t do it? (the last 5 passes i do it in the direction of the cut). i also suppose that the naniwa 8k ss is a high stiction stone, right?

thanks again, and sorry for the time it took to read your answer, i got sick last week...

cheers,
Miguel

[David Weaver]

* The baldor is a dry grinder, to make a hollow grind. Doing as much work as possible with the grinder and as little as possible with the stones is best. Less metal to work on the stones means a sharp edge faster and more consistently, no matter what the sharpening medium is (waterstones, oil stones, sandpaper, etc)

* Side sharpening is good for most of the strokes until the last strokes, and then *not* side sharpening for the last few strokes on the finish stone. I agree that it is easier to keep the bevel angle consistent with side strokes, especially on high-stiction stones.

* the naniwa 8k should be a *low* stiction stone (easy to use), especially compared to fine-grit shaptons.

[miguel bernardo]

ok, thanks again david. you´ve been much helpful. so you use the baldor machine to hollow grind the bevel, thus making the part of the bevel that will actually touch the stone shorter, right?

cheers,
MIGUEL.

[David Weaver]

Yes, two parts actually touch the stone. At the top of the chisel and at the edge.

I tried to find a picture of a hollow ground edge earlier but all of the ones I saw in google image were linked to other forums, which isn't allowed here. Someone on here has to have a good picture of a hollow ground edge to show you what i mean.

The grinder can be any grinder, doesn't have to be an expensive baldor. For several years, I used a cheap chinese-made grinder with two-piece tool rests (any grinder should have two piece tool rests).

Alternatively, if you don't want to use a dry grinder, you can grind the primary bevel flat (on a belt sander or in a honing guide), and sharpen the chisel in a honing guide on the 8000 stone at a slightly higher angle than the primary grind, still making only a very thin strip of polished steel.

Either one of those methods will allow you to skip a lot of grit and get an edge that is theoretically the same as a full polished bevel, but in practice will be better than a full polished bevel with much less effort.

(disclaimer for pam, no kasumi discussions intended - western chisels only)

[Roderick Gentry]

"What they do have going for them is they're very well known in the English speaking world and they're common so there's a large base for which information about them can be sourced. That's a really big benefit for the general user."

Though it doesn't really explain why we went through that hysterical period in which we were all supposed to move from King... :)

[David Weaver]

Well, they're more effective than kings, and a lot less sloppy.

I missed the 15mm comment above, it's not really an issue with shaptons. Anyone who is woodworking should have epoxy in their shop and and an offcut of either walnut or pretty much anything quartersawn to glue them to. A 15mm pro affixed to wood will probably outlast just about anything out there other than another hard ceramic stone. (I like the base so much that it's not a shapton exclusive thing, even my bester is epoxied to a spare piece of kingwood).

I've done that with every stone I have except the cho's and the very large natural stones. I'm worried that if I ever want to sell one of those, people will not want a shop base attached.

Relative speed with stones is not much of an issue, the stones shouldn't be doing much work, anyway. However, it's not accurate to say that a shapton stone is a slow stone. It may be on HSS, but it is not on HCS or A2. Perhaps it would be if someone was trying to sharpen a full flat bevel on hardened steel, but there is a reason no professional woodworker or serious amateur sharpens the full flat bevel on something like that to a polish. If someone is still grinding their irons and chisels by hand on a stone, then they are wasting their time. That's their choice, of course, and I wouldn't want to argue someone out of doing that if they like to, but it's a waste of time.

And bought properly (i.e., not through the US distribution system), the two shapton pros someone would need to have are cheap in relative terms - half of what a cho 10K would cost, and other than private label stones I've seen by Kuroda and some others, cheaper than any other fine hard ceramic stones.

Anything that the 1 micron pro might not do well (a micron is a micron, regardless of what their grit convention may be, right?), like M2, can be cleaned up very easily on a free MDF scrap with $6 worth of green chromium oxide stick - for years. Discussing removing large amounts of M2 with stones, when it is not temperature sensitive in relative terms should point someone right back to the "you didn't do that on the grinder?" discussion.

So, I have the chos and a rika, and I still find myself using the shaptons even though the chos and rika do cut a little faster (but on high carbon steel and A2, not much). And of all of the stones I have (let's not put a number on that in public), they would still be the last ones to go if the economy gets my job.

(shapton pros we're talking about here. In my opinion, glasstones are something to be avoided as an excuse to sell a sucker 5mm worth of stone for more than 15mm costs outside the US - instead of just advising customers to affix their pro stones to a base or a piece of glass if they wanted to use the entire thickness, which few will ever do).

[Tony Shea]

I should start a new thread for this question but I wont just because it really isn't neccessary, short answer. But with japanese chisels and plane blades, how does on go about changing a bevel angle or regrinding the bevel if nicks occur. Is a grinder still used but then sharpened until the hollow is completely gone? Or does one just regrind on coarse stones or in my case sandpaper on granite with a honing guide? I'm recently getting into japanese tools and have been building a collection of blades, chisels and working on planes. I have yet to have to regrind an edge. But I do have a chisel that I'd like to change the bevel angle on and don't really know the best process to take.

[David Weaver]

You try to avoid large nicks.

The traditional method would be to use a coarse silicone carbide stone and do it by hand. That doesn't mean that's a quick method compared to power.

You don't want to use a dry grinder on white or blue steel if you have any appreciable amount of metal to remove because they start to lose their temper at a very low temperature.

if I get a nick or I don't like the bevel angle of a new iron (this is not common if you buy an expensive plane made by a competent blacksmith), I use a tormek. I leave the hollow in - it's not steep enough on a 10 inch stone to cause a problem, and I have read some folks say they think it is because they've read a blanket rule that japanese irons should not be hollow ground. I have not had problems and I've tormeked a bunch of stuff.

You can do in a couple of minutes on a tormek what takes a long time to do by hand, and it's senseless mind-numbing work by hand to remove a large nick, even on a very coarse silicon carbide stone. Large nicks should be a rare thing once you are familiar with your tools.

[David Weaver]

I should add one extra comment, sometimes when you get a new iron, they will chip out some, just like any other atmospherically hardened tool. You have to work through those a little bit if you have a chippy iron because it's likely after a couple of cases, the iron will perform the way you expect it to.