People Taking Photos in Your Shop

[James & Zelma Litzmann]

Have any of you ever had a competitor come to shop or send employees to take pictures of some of your items? If so how do you handle the situation?

[Dan Hintz]

I don't open my shop to the public (there would be serious insurance issues with all of the spinning tools), but I would handle it as a request for the perp to hand over the memory card while someone calls the police. They likely won't hand it over, and you can't exactly hold them until the police comes, but if you know what company the perp belongs to, there's an opportunity to sue them for infringing on your custom designs (assuming they use them), you can have a restraining order placed against them (it's private property), etc. Placing a sign in the window that says pictures, video recordings, etc. are strictly forbidden on the premises would help a lot in a court case.

You'd have to be hurt financially pretty badly to make most of the above worth it, but something to consider. Personally I would become very pushy to get that memory card back.

So what's the story?

[Rodne Gold]

You can tell them to stop or not allow them to take pictures , but at the end of it all it really isnt anyone different to coming to your place and seeing for themselves. If you let customers into your shop , then you are open to this type of "espionage"

We often get customers coming in and taking pictures of various items or ranges , we dont really care much if they are competitors as they could go to my website and see the same if not more..
It really also makes good business sense to go to your competitors operations/shops/showrooms if they open to the public and to see what they are doing and to get a sense of their pricing and method of operation , it will enable you to sharpen your operation and to react to their strategy and adjust yours.

It's not the same as you going thru your rivals bins , having a PI watch their every move and bugging their tele lines and intercepting their mail etc.
Every year or 2 , I take stock of who are my competitors , try to find out their range , their pricing , who they are doing work for , visit their websites and so on .. all done perfectly legally , albeit I wouldnt let them know I am a rival company.

I has a stall at an exhibition a while back , a marketing/marking thingy and I noticed a rival surreptitiously taking pics , I called him over and gave him a copy of my website and product range on CD and said he would find that much more detailed than a hastily taken shot.. my business and repeat customers are based on service and quality and seeing what I got etc wont help competitors in that department. If my competitors choose to steal my designs , so be it , we come up with new stuff all the time.

I also went to a signage exhibition 3 or 4 years back , and found one of the laser distributors there (not the brand of lasers I own) had a whole bunch of my products that had been made with my lasers and that were bought from me and were passing them off as output and products their lasers had made , still even had the gall to leave my stickers on some items... That I wasn't too pleased with and asked them to remove them forthwith.

[James & Zelma Litzmann]

I have had a particular company that set up a booth at one of our downtown shows right in front of our shop, that was before we knew they exisit. This last couple of weeks they have sent in people that work for them to take pictures in our shop. I have tried to let go mainly because there really is NOT a thing I can do about it, but it is still bugging me. I have signs posted and that doesn't work, they still do it. If they would just do a little research they could come up with their own ideas without coping others right at their front door. There is more than enough business out there for all of us. People just need to have scruples (my big word for the day - haha), that is just my opinion. Thanks for letting me vent.

[Neil Pabia]

Last time I had that problem, I took their camera away and removed the memory card. I have zero tolerance for that sort of stuff, the least they can do is pretend they are texting while taking pictures.

[Rodne Gold]

How can you do that, isnt that theft?

[Neil Pabia]

On whos part?

[Jim Beachler]

Rodne, I have done the same as you. At the many art shows I do, I have seen people taking pictures of my products disguised as taking a picture of the person with them. I walk up to them and give them one of my flyers and tell them "All the measurements are in the descriptions, so it will make it easier for you to copy my ideas. And by the way, if you can't figure it out or get it done, you have my number and website to order one from me."

James, the next time they come in I think you should be very helpful and pose with the product and suggest better ways to take the picture and point out little details that they might have missed. Be overly helpful and they might be so embarrassed that they won't return. Kill them with kindness, even if they show up again. And if they do show up again, point out the new stuff to them and help them with the pics again.

As Rodne states, beating a competitor is through service, skills and relationship. My customers know they pay me a higher price than my competitors but they still come back wanting more. Customer service, skill and my relationship with them is what haves them coming back every time.

[Martin Boekers]

Look at it this way, you must be doing something right if the want to photograph it!

I get folks through all the time that take pictures, mostly because the one making the decision on
what to buy isn't available.

Many shop have an online catalog with their wares, I search the internet to see what others are doing
just as most do the same. I don't copy work, but I do get inspired by it.

I worked in custom photography years back in the days of enlargers and chemical processing. I used to
share my techiques with others all the time. I used to get asked all the time, "why are you giving away
your secrets?" my response was. The only secret I have is hard work. 99% of them won't take the effort
to do the extra work.

If they think that making something similar as yours will lead them to success, they don't understand
the process.

Now if they were taking pictures of areas outside your public showroom, that would worry me ( more of a casing your shop
instead of "stealing" ideas.)

I get work from people quite a bit, that bring in a product someone else did and want to know if I can make something
similar. So I do my best.

Most of what I create really isn't copyrightable or trademarked. It's not something revolutionary, mostly just assembled from
pieces.

[Chuck Stone]

Careful Neil .. you might get away with it because of your 'commanding presence' but there
isn't any law against them taking pics. And you can't confiscate anything, nor could the police.
It would take a court order

Post your rules so they can be seen before they enter and you'll be able to sue them
if they take pics. If they pull out a camera, ask them to leave and escort them out. Call
the cops if they persist. Trespassing is a misdemeanor. But touch them or the camera?
nope.. you'll be the one they call 'defendant'.

[Dee Gallo]

I keep a copy of the copyright law including the fees for losing and give it out to anyone who seems like they might try it and let them know it is not worth the $$$ to steal a copyright.

[Scott Shepherd]

Keep a camera handy yourself. Next time one does it, pull out your camera and take a photo of them. Once you have a couple of photos of them, it's time to take a ride to their shop, show the photos to the owner and ask them to please stop sending employees over to take photos of your products.

Or, grab your camera, get in the car, head over, stand in their place and take photos of their products.

I personally would do either one, and I'd be willing to bet it would be the last time you'll see them in your shop taking photos.

[Leo Graywacz]

How can you do that, isnt that theft?

You are allowed to photograph anything in the public domain. Inside your shop is not public domain, it is a private company. All you need to do is put up a sign at the doorway that any photographs taken can and will be confiscated and you are covered.

[Jiten Patel]

When we exhibit, we get loads of people taking pictures. Most are completely innocent, with a handful being malicious in their intent. These people do rattle my cage, but I have learnt to take it as a compliment. As Martin said, you must be doing something right for people to come and try and steal your ideas. It's very difficult to stop this sort of thing, but a few harsh words may embarrass them enough to think twice about doing it again.

Oh the joys of having a creative business!

[Neil Pabia]

As long as I give back the memory card, it isn't theft on my part, of course it will be blank when returned. My problem with the guy that did take pictures was that if he had asked permission, I probably would have been fine with it and even offered to work with him on creating a piece on his own, but I detest sneakyness and he was trying hard not to be seen. At a show, I usually ask them not to take pictures, not that there is anyway to stop copying, but if they want to copy my work the least they can do is buy one and reverse engineer it. I'm not an unfriendly person but what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong.

[Martin Boekers]

Like many have expressed the easiest way to address it if it does frustrate you is to put
a sign up. The most visible is a camera with a red circle and a slash through it. No
misunderstanding that!

Now a days most businesses and factories have a similar thing but also includes any recording device.
retail stores really have an issue with people coming in to photo how they competitor sets up their
displays.


Marty

[Chuck Stone]

As long as I give back the memory card, it isn't theft on my part,

Unfortunately, it is theft. The photograph is now a product, owned by the photographer.
You have taken that product, which is theft and destruction of personal property. If you
did this by threat, you can now add assault.

Whether or not the photographer SHOULD have taken the photo is a separate matter,
one for the courts to decide. But once you confiscate the card, *you* are the one in
violation of the law.

I don't disagree with you on the right and wrong, but this is a matter of legal vs criminal.
If the laws made sense, we wouldn't need lawyers.

[Joe De Medeiros]

Keep a camera handy yourself. Next time one does it, pull out your camera and take a photo of them. Once you have a couple of photos of them, it's time to take a ride to their shop, show the photos to the owner and ask them to please stop sending employees over to take photos of your products.

Or, grab your camera, get in the car, head over, stand in their place and take photos of their products.

I personally would do either one, and I'd be willing to bet it would be the last time you'll see them in your shop taking photos.


I like it, this will certainly rattle their cage

[Michael Kowalczyk]

My Patent/IP attorney told me "Michael no one ever copied a bad idea"

[James & Zelma Litzmann]

Keep a camera handy yourself. Next time one does it, pull out your camera and take a photo of them. Once you have a couple of photos of them, it's time to take a ride to their shop, show the photos to the owner and ask them to please stop sending employees over to take photos of your products.

Or, grab your camera, get in the car, head over, stand in their place and take photos of their products.

I personally would do either one, and I'd be willing to bet it would be the last time you'll see them in your shop taking photos.

I really liked this idea, at least now I can respond.

[Kim Vellore]

I think if one takes a picture and it affects you financially you are in trouble and its time to diversify. If one really wants pictures just come to this forum and get all the awesome products that people have created, free with detailed information where to get raw materials, laser settings and how to make it. so one should think imitations is the biggest form of flattery, and if your competitor takes takes pictures then he is scared of you and you should be proud of that.


Kim

[Leo Graywacz]

If they are coming in there to steal your secrets it is espionage and theft. People who post pictures and relay information on forums do so at their own will.

[Scott Shepherd]

Oh, I don't know if I agree with that Kim. I think it depends on what stage your business is in. In the early days, I had few customers and it would really have impacted me to have someone take one of the few I had. I have accounts now so it really doesn't matter as much, but there are some I work hard to keep and I'd like to not shoot myself in the foot by allowing someone to see the details of that work.

I'd also suspect that most stuff posted on forums is not the stuff people make their living off of. I know a number of people on here with thriving businesses and I don't think I've ever seen photos of what they are doing. I think most smart business people aren't going to post their trade secrets on any public forum.

I've seen a lot of things posted on this and other forums, but I haven't seem too much that I think I could sell and make profitable as a product. Lots of cool stuff, for sure. I mean who's posting panel tag photos? That's a real money maker for many people. You'll make more from panel tags than baby photos on granite :)

[Rodne Gold]

If your business is so fragile that someone taking pics is gonna sink it , well I dunno?
We all get inspiration and learn etc by "stealing with our eyes" in one way or another , seeing something here , there , reading a blog , seeing a competitors advert , someone elses product , posting on forums, seeing something on TV and so on. If you have a concept/idea that you think is so valuable , copyright or patent it and use the law to protect it. Being paranoid and stressing about your competitors just takes time and energy that you could better use in promoting your business.
BTW , anyone detaining me or trying to take my camera away if I had taken a pic would be in a lot more trouble than I would be for taking that picture. I would not give it up easily and if you prevent me from leaving etc - it could get rather ugly and most likely very violent - rather stupid way of trying to "protect" whatever you are trying to protect (which is most likely unprotectable anyway)

[Adrian Hill]

What stops your opposition from buying your products and then copying them?

I agree with Rodne, if the products are good they will be copied -the only thing you can do is to sell on quality and reputation. I also agree that you have no right to touch his camera, nor to view the photographs on his memory card, even if it is only to find photographs taken in your shop.

What will you do if he sends in his aunt, a nice old lady who you don't know, to take pictures?

[Mike Null]

Keep in mind that most of the industry suppliers provide dozens if not hundreds of examples for you to pattern your work after even including templates. This is important for them as they get to introduce many and often very creative ways to use their products. The point being that we are often led to using designs in this way or by a customer who asks, "can you do something like this".

Those with just a little experience know whether they can legally do a job or not.

As far as the question of photographs by competitors, I'd probably bounce them out of my shop. On the other hand, I have very good and cooperative relationships with several of my competitors and regularly do work for one of the larger ones so that kind of thing just isn't done.

[Leo Graywacz]

What stops your opposition from buying your products and then copying them?

I agree with Rodne, if the products are good they will be copied -the only thing you can do is to sell on quality and reputation. I also agree that you have no right to touch his camera, nor to view the photographs on his memory card, even if it is only to find photographs taken in your shop.

What will you do if he sends in his aunt, a nice old lady who you don't know, to take pictures?

He is not worried about the product. He is worried about the setup to make the product. Many companies have secret proprietary things that set them apart from the other companies. You can look at something on the outside but still not know what is on the inside. This is what he is trying to protect.

[Adrian Hill]

But surely the workshop and the showroom are seperate from one another? I can understand not wanting the opposition in the workshop but the showroom should be OK. My workshop is totally sealed off.

[Scott Shepherd]

Also, keep in mind, not everyone lives in a place that can support a lot of competition. It's all good if you live in a city of 2,000,000 and someone else wants to pop up on the other side of town, but if you live in a town of 20,000, and you're the only shop in town and someone pops up down the street, that's an entirely different situation.

I've seen a number of small sign shops in small towns go out of business because someone bought some equipment, ran things out of their home, and lowballed the market because they didn't know how to price.

[Rodne Gold]

What do you think is going to happen to the laser market ? I can tell you that the barriers to entry have tumbled - $5-6k and you in with a darn good machine...

[Scott Shepherd]

Exactly my point Rodney, that's exactly why we should care if someone's taking photos. Running a business isn't a joke or a hobby, it's reality and we have to do things to protect our business every day. We all take calculated risks, and to me, allowing someone to take photos of our products, in our shop, it just making it way too easy for someone. If they want to steal from me, they'll have to do it without my help.

[Jim Beachler]

Leo, I have a unique way of making my puzzles and other items. I don't let competitors into the workshop portion of the building unless I have a good relationship with them.

However, the most important thing that I have found in people copying my ideas is that they do not have the network or connections that I have. My customers know me and won't go to a competitor because of my relationship. Same with my resell customers. I not only provide personal service but make sure that when they forget to give me an order, that I put theirs up front to help them recover. As Rodne stated, it's not the products that sell (as anyone can find anything and copy it), it's the service that sells the product.

[James & Zelma Litzmann]

I know there is nothing that I can really do, but I do like the idea of taking their picture while they are taking pictures in my shop, maybe I'll make a special place in the showroom of people who come in and take pictures of our shop. I'm not even sure I have any ideas worth copying, it is just the audacity of underhanded people, that really gets on my nerves. If it wasn't for all of you five years ago, I'd still be standing still, I've got most of my ideas from all of you guys. I think if they were open and above board, "honest" with me, it would not bother me nearly as much. I'm also glad to know that I am not the only one this would bother.

[Martin Boekers]

Part of why my shop excels is creativity. I am always coming up with something new or different.
Sure I still offer the basic stuff which sells from year to year, but I renew the display area with new
products and new ideas. This does bring back repeat business as many come in to see what I have that's new
or recent projects I have done. Service, Service, Service, keeps them coming back. Typical turnarounds for
me are 2-3 days. Military nametage while you wait. I do provide quicker turns if they really have to have it.
Next week I am launching a line of products (20 or so) with an hour or less turnaround. Yes, there is a need for that!
Local competition hasn't explored these ideas yet. I am already quicker than their standard turns.

One thing I will add about copying ideas, take your burger joints for instance. Burgers are basically the same thing.
They are made up with meat, bread and condiments. Why to people chose the one the go to?

1. Pricing (lowest cost) I don't want being the lowest priced place to be my may noteriety.
2. Quality of product (No mistakes, and no poor quality construction) Double check , make sure it's right!
3. Service (I don't mind paying a bit more if the service is better, last thing I want someone to say is no,
and not have any options are alternatives)
4. Convenience


Most shops now have some sort of online presence, most of their images are right there already.
I do explore some local shops from time to time. I don't take a camera, I introduce myself when I enter.
Yes, I do it to see what the competion is offering and their display area. Nothing on the sly. I have invited them
to stop by my shop when they get a chance.

It is amazing though, how still I see so many online shops that use the standard web content from their
suppliers. So it all looks the same, from engraver to engraver. Many shops stick with standard off the shelf awards.
I do to a point, but 15% are so are custom projects, many one of a kind. The trick is not the product, the trick
lies in how to get it done quickly and reasonably priced so I can make a decent profit also.

[Bill Cunningham]

I have no problems with anyone taking pictures in my shop customer area..The work area is strictly off limits to anyone I don't want in there with or without a camera. I had a film crew in the shop a few years ago shooting a sequence for the Rich Bride Poor Bride, TV series. the camera crew had the full run of the shop mostly because of trying to keep most people out of the customer area for the shoot.. But they were told no photos or video in the work area. Professionals usually don't pose a problem once they know the rules..

[Mark Ross]

There is a very easy way to screw up most cameras and camcorders for that matter. Get a very powerful IR light. All they will get when they go snappy snappy, is a huge white blotch.

[Dan Hintz]

There is a very easy way to screw up most cameras and camcorders for that matter. Get a very powerful IR light. All they will get when they go snappy snappy, is a huge white blotch.
Assuming the IR emitter is within the field of view of the item being photographed... which I doubt it would be, unless you could place it within a foot or so of the item being photographed. It work in movie theaters because you know where the cameras are being pointed (the screen)... tough to guess in the real world.

[Neil Pabia]

Unfortunately, it is theft. The photograph is now a product, owned by the photographer.
You have taken that product, which is theft and destruction of personal property. If you
did this by threat, you can now add assault.

Whether or not the photographer SHOULD have taken the photo is a separate matter,
one for the courts to decide. But once you confiscate the card, *you* are the one in
violation of the law.

I don't disagree with you on the right and wrong, but this is a matter of legal vs criminal.
If the laws made sense, we wouldn't need lawyers.

I can see that one in court "your honor, the digital image that isn't there was stolen and I can't prove it". Good luck with that one. I wouldn't even bother with a lawyer for that case.

[Chuck Stone]

I can see that one in court "your honor, the digital image that isn't there was stolen and I can't prove it".

I've seen your game face. You'd scare the pictures right off the disc.

[Kelly Colin Mark]

You are allowed to photograph anything in the public domain. Inside your shop is not public domain, it is a private company. All you need to do is put up a sign at the doorway that any photographs taken can and will be confiscated and you are covered.
You can put up all the signs you want but it doesn't mean you are entitled to confiscate anything.

I can see that one in court "your honor, the digital image that isn't there was stolen and I can't prove it". Good luck with that one. I wouldn't even bother with a lawyer for that case.
In other words, you'd perjure yourself. Nice.

[Richard Rumancik]

If your business is so fragile that someone taking pics is gonna sink it , well I dunno? We all get inspiration and learn etc by "stealing with our eyes" in one way or another , seeing something here , there , reading a blog , seeing a competitors advert , someone elses product , posting on forums, seeing something on TV and so on. If you have a concept/idea that you think is so valuable , copyright or patent it and use the law to protect it.

I have to agree with Rodne here. If you have products for sale, they are effectively open for public viewing. In the extreme case for $50 or $100 they can buy the item and then reverse engineer it at their leisure. But what is there to copy? The shape of a plaque? The layout? The colors? There might be a few instances of truly artistic design that warrants copyright protection or design patents. But this isn't exactly rocket science.

Now if you have a unique process or design, then you should protect it if you don't want others to know about it or use it. And you should not discuss it here or post pictures. But many ideas for laser products are freely available on the Internet and in trade publications.

I don't see why someone would go to the trouble of going to another local shop to take pictures. If they are smart they would try to be making something different than their neighbour. And people on this forum are pretty generous in sharing information about products and processes. Maybe just tell the competitor to join this forum and they can get more process info and design ideas than they could use . . . (hopefully they contribute some ideas themselves, of course.)

[Neil Pabia]

You can put up all the signs you want but it doesn't mean you are entitled to confiscate anything.

In other words, you'd perjure yourself. Nice.
Please don't put words in my mouth, I won't do anything to dishonor myself.

[Kelly Colin Mark]

Please don't put words in my mouth, I won't do anything to dishonor myself.

I can see that one in court "your honor, the digital image that isn't there was stolen and I can't prove it". Good luck with that one. I wouldn't even bother with a lawyer for that case.
Let's see. You'd take the pictures off the guy's camera. That's theft.

If the plaintiff cares enough, he takes you to court. The plaintiff would claim that you took some images off the camera without his permission or by coercion. For you to win the case, you'd have to convince the judge that you didn't steal the images off the camera. The judge will ask you whether or not you did so. Either you're going to tell the truth and confirm that you took the images , or you're going to lie by saying you didn't do it, or don't remember.

So you either lose the case, or perjure yourself.You better get that lawyer.

[Neil Pabia]

Since your profile isn't filled out, I don't know if you are a lawyer or a child, but I'm through wasting my time on your argument. Have fun and don't take pictures in my shop. Thank you.

[Bill Cunningham]

Assuming the IR emitter is within the field of view of the item being photographed... which I doubt it would be, unless you could place it within a foot or so of the item being photographed. It work in movie theaters because you know where the cameras are being pointed (the screen)... tough to guess in the real world...

I can remember when Imax was new, and people were so enthralled with the images on the huge screen, they were taking pictures...with a flash....:D

[John Barton]

My Patent/IP attorney told me "Michael no one ever copied a bad idea"

LOL. That sounds just like what a patent attorney would say as he is waiting for you to write him a check. In fact people copy all sorts of ideas good and bad if they think that they can make money off of it. One way to look at it is that we are where we are as a species due to copying. It's ideas that drive what we call human progress.

As for people coming in the shop just to snoop and take pictures I find it highly distasteful but as Rodne pointed out it's nothing compared to what they will find on my website.

If I had a retail shop I would put up some little signs all around the products that say, "pictures are forbidden, cameras will be confiscated, police will be called, charges will be brought." So even if the shop owner couldn't actually press charges perhaps the threat will be enough for the competitors to stay away.

I would check the law though. I am pretty sure that a business can legally forbid the taking of pictures in their shop. Or not. Sucks to have to deal with it.

[Adrian Hill]

I think that the whole issue is actually a total waste of time. What difference does it make whether the person take images off your website, takes pictures in your shop using his Canon SLR or simply takes pictures using a $5 pen camera or keychain camera or any other tiny little camera that you wouldn't notice. Some people have photographic memories (I'd love to see somebody confiscate their minds) The technology to take discreet photographs is readily available for next to nothing. The guy can buy your products and reverse engineer them anyway.

Sell on reputation - and anyway, I do not believe that all of us that frequent this list don't spend lots of time scouring the net looking for ideas and techniques (that others perfected and make money from)

[John Barton]

I think that the whole issue is actually a total waste of time. What difference does it make whether the person take images off your website, takes pictures in your shop using his Canon SLR or simply takes pictures using a $5 pen camera or keychain camera or any other tiny little camera that you wouldn't notice. Some people have photographic memories (I'd love to see somebody confiscate their minds) The technology to take discreet photographs is readily available for next to nothing. The guy can buy your products and reverse engineer them anyway.

Sell on reputation - and anyway, I do not believe that all of us that frequent this list don't spend lots of time scouring the net looking for ideas and techniques (that others perfected and make money from)

It's all well and good to say "sell on reputation" but what happens when both shops are vying for the same customer?

So Shop A is super creative and has a LOT of awesome ideas and makes plenty of examples.

Shop B has zero creativity and depends on the customer telling them exactly what to do.

A new customer walks into shop A which has a storefront with plenty of items on display. Customer looks around and finds a few interesting and creative gifts that he would like to have made BUT he isn't quite ready to pull the trigger. So he leaves and down the street he sees another laser engraving business set up under a tent at the farmer's market. He walks in and looks around and doesn't see anything quite as nice as what he saw in the first shop.

As he is about to leave the seller says would you like to see some other samples? Sure says the customer and out comes the photo book which has a lot of pictures from the retail shop. So that guy gets the sale and the first shop gets nothing. In this instance there was no way to sell on reputation.

And that's assuming that there is a difference in reputation. What if the guy in the tent could do the work just as good as the guy in the shop?

No matter how you slice it it's just not fair for someone to take and use the work from another person and represent it as their own ideas or their own work.

Let's take it a step further. You make a KILLER web site, great images, fantastic copy that kills. You put a lot of time and effort into it and along comes some bozo who rips off all your pictures and copy and along with it your reputation since he takes all your testimonials as well. How do you feel about that?

As for the person with a photographic memory.....let's see them use that to sell a customer a plaque. I think an actual photo works better. :-)

There is a big difference between a board like this where people share what they do in full knowledge that anyone can take an idea and run with it and a private shop which is normally not set up to be a free fountain of knowledge for all competitors. When I am at shows I don't walk around taking pictures of my competitors' products. ( I hire people to do that - JUST KIDDING) - I will certainly go check them out but I won't take pix.

And when people come in my booth who are from the competition then it's NO PIX ALLOWED. And if someone did violate that then we would have a problem. Legitimate customers however can take as many pictures as they please.

[Adrian Hill]

I have a different take on this. We manufacture South African model trains: see www.scalecraft.co.za (http://www.scalecraft.co.za) I developed a a superior product using various techniques. I know exactly what the opposition is doing, the techniques they use and the issues they face. They know the same about my operation (If they don't then it is their own stupidity not to find out). All the products are on the website and of course images of all the full size rolling stock is readily available. My opposition and I trade on a South African site similar to Ebay - we vie for the same customers all the time. None of us trade via the dealers because their mark-ups push the prices up to high. Sometimes we manufacture the same products and the customer chooses which product he buys based purely on price, quality and reputation. Given the innovation, quality, effort, product range, knowledge and customer base, the opposition can't touch me. I stay on top of what the opposition does, they don't get to lift a finger without me knowing about it. If they do something new or different I buy the product and take it apart to see what they did, how they did it and if its a good idea I use it. (All companies do - new cars have led lights, abs, traction control, they all look alike, why, copy copy copy) My opposition come into my workshop and I supply them with parts that I manufacture or import. Why, goodwill and insight into their operation. I know who is doing what because they order parts from me and it is amazing what one can find out over a beer and a bit of "bait" - give him advice, a part or a customer and he feels obliged to do something for you in return. in terms of techniques, its all very much the same, we use resin casting, injection moulding, brass etching, laser cutting, etc, there are no secrets. We each have our own way of doing things but it is much the same. Now, my customers prefer my products because they are simply the best on the market, yes, the opposition can copy them, and do, but if the customer is unwilling to pay my price then he can go away. My motto is this "A quality product for a quality customer" I will not trade with the rats and the mice - you know: the guy that complains that he can't afford the hobby and then wants to haggle - my view is that if he can't afford the hobby then he should take up another hobby.

To me the whole thing is like a second hand car dealership. There are 20 dealerships next to one another selling the same products, how does a dealer get a customer to buy when the guy goes from the one dealer to the next...a good dealer like Joe Girard does over and over and over again.

Business is largely about relationsips between people. Yes, products are important but a customer is far more forgiving if the relationship is good.

it is simply a given that products are copied sooner or later, the Chinese have it down to a fine art, the trick is to create a unique product, climb into the market and sell sell sell. As soon as the product becomes a commodity and everybody and his dog markets the product you should already be onto the next innovative product and you ride the wave all over again...Well at least that is what I believe and yes I know that it isn't easy if you are a little business struggling to make ends meet, but the fact of the matter is that if second hand car dealers can make it big, then so can we. (I am also the little guy fighting to stay alive...)

[John Barton]

I have a different take on this. We manufacture South African model trains: see www.scalecraft.co.za (http://www.scalecraft.co.za) I developed a a superior product using various techniques. I know exactly what the opposition is doing, the techniques they use and the issues they face. They know the same about my operation (If they don't then it is their own stupidity not to find out). All the products are on the website and of course images of all the full size rolling stock is readily available. My opposition and I trade on a South African site similar to Ebay - we vie for the same customers all the time. None of us trade via the dealers because their mark-ups push the prices up to high. Sometimes we manufacture the same products and the customer chooses which product he buys based purely on price, quality and reputation. Given the innovation, quality, effort, product range, knowledge and customer base, the opposition can't touch me. I stay on top of what the opposition does, they don't get to lift a finger without me knowing about it. If they do something new or different I buy the product and take it apart to see what they did, how they did it and if its a good idea I use it. (All companies do - new cars have led lights, abs, traction control, they all look alike, why, copy copy copy) My opposition come into my workshop and I supply them with parts that I manufacture or import. Why, goodwill and insight into their operation. I know who is doing what because they order parts from me and it is amazing what one can find out over a beer and a bit of "bait" - give him advice, a part or a customer and he feels obliged to do something for you in return. in terms of techniques, its all very much the same, we use resin casting, injection moulding, brass etching, laser cutting, etc, there are no secrets. We each have our own way of doing things but it is much the same. Now, my customers prefer my products because they are simply the best on the market, yes, the opposition can copy them, and do, but if the customer is unwilling to pay my price then he can go away. My motto is this "A quality product for a quality customer" I will not trade with the rats and the mice - you know: the guy that complains that he can't afford the hobby and then wants to haggle - my view is that if he can't afford the hobby then he should take up another hobby.

To me the whole thing is like a second hand car dealership. There are 20 dealerships next to one another selling the same products, how does a dealer get a customer to buy when the guy goes from the one dealer to the next...a good dealer like Joe Girard does over and over and over again.

Business is largely about relationsips between people. Yes, products are important but a customer is far more forgiving if the relationship is good.

it is simply a given that products are copied sooner or later, the Chinese have it down to a fine art, the trick is to create a unique product, climb into the market and sell sell sell. As soon as the product becomes a commodity and everybody and his dog markets the product you should already be onto the next innovative product and you ride the wave all over again...Well at least that is what I believe and yes I know that it isn't easy if you are a little business struggling to make ends meet, but the fact of the matter is that if second hand car dealers can make it big, then so can we. (I am also the little guy fighting to stay alive...)

Adrian,

You and I are almost exactly alike in our approach to our businesses. I make pool cue cases and if you substitute cue cases for model trains in your paragraph then it would be exactly what I would say about myself. The example in question though concerns a retail shop competing against another retail shop for impulse business in personalized items.

It's a different situation. What is the point of creating a bunch of really cool products just to serve the competition more than yourself in a retail environment?

The point I was trying to make is that in a retail situation which depends a lot on impulse purchasing you don't have a lot of time or opportunity to establish a relationship. HOWEVER on reflection and thinking back to all the shows I have done one thing sticks out. You have to engage the customer and provide them with enough information to make what you think will be the smart decision.

I dealt with competitors offering knockoffs of my product for half the price selling against me three booths down. The way I handled it was to engage the customer and give them all the information and then I'd say something like don't get your money out. Take a walk and check out the other vendors. Use the knowledge I just gave you and if you feel my case is the better investment then come back. A lot of them came back, a lot of them insisted on not even shopping elsewhere. I also had a lot of signage in my booth - bullet points done as little signs for the customers I couldn't get to before they left the booth. I actually think that this is the more pro-active way to do it than the defensive way I suggested above with the no-cameras warning signs.

So I do agree that business is more about relationships than actual product. And I further think that the time to start a relationship is when the customer sets foot in your store.

And thanks for the heads-up on your business. I don't know jack about model trains but my friend is way into them and it's always a pleasure for me when I can toss a new link that he might not know about his direction.