220 Motor Question

[David Nelson1]

Anyone ever have a 220 motor that would not shut off by the switch. Happened to me twice in the last 14 months. Turn the switch back on and then off again and it stops. I thought it might be a dirty switch, so took it apart and its clean as a whistle. If its not acting up ya can't fix something that ain't broke. BTW is a Baldor 2 hp motor.

[Stephen Cherry]

Sounds like a control problem, as opposed to the motor. (If the motor gets juice, it generally wants to run.)

I'm a big fan of old style motor control-- a contactor with NO start switch, NC stop switch and aux contact to seal in the start, followed by a thermal overload. The stop switch breaks the current to the coil of the contactor, and it stops. Not much to go wrong, and no surprises.

What type of switch is on the machine?

[Chip Lindley]

Anyone ever have a 220 motor that would not shut off by the switch. Happened to me twice in the last 14 months. Turn the switch back on and then off again and it stops. I thought it might be a dirty switch, so took it apart and its clean as a whistle. If its not acting up ya can't fix something that ain't broke. BTW is a Baldor 2 hp motor.

David, you don't show what kind of switch turns the motor on / off. I'm betting that the switch is too small for a 12(ish) Amp, 220v motor. Those contacts are slightly welding shut from overheating while the motor runs. Then when you turn the switch off, the contacts are stuck shut, allowing the motor to keep running.

Show us the switch and we can pinpoint where the trouble is and recommend a larger capacity motor starter for your Baldor.

[David Nelson1]

The switch is your basic run of the mill toggle. The application is my Delta plane RC 33. I forgot it has thermal over load breaker as well.

[Curt Harms]

I'm with Stephen & Chip. The switch is not opening reliably. Unless there's a plug you can pull this seems like a safety issue. Weak spring? If you're not averse to sullying old iron with a Grizzly switch, here's a possibility http://www.grizzly.com/products/220V-Paddle-On-Off-Switch/H8242 220 volt 16 amps 2 h.p $9.95 plus shipping. Here's Grizzly's motor starter/switch listing: http://www.grizzly.com/products/category.aspx?key=275010

[David Nelson1]

Hi Curt,

I have been leaning towards a switch as well. Its just to simple a system to be complicated, but at the same time I never seen a switch not work and then work 100+ times in row without faults. I was really wondering/worring that it might be a sticking run/start (??) contactor. Delta wants 430.00 bucks for those pups and I think there are 2 of them. A replacement motor would be cheaper.

How do the contactors work to induce voltage to the motor? Hint this is gong to lead to another question I'm certain.

Thanks

[Mike Henderson]

Hi Curt,

I have been leaning towards a switch as well. Its just to simple a system to be complicated, but at the same time I never seen a switch not work and then work 100+ times in row without faults. I was really wondering/worring that it might be a sticking run/start (??) contactor. Delta wants 430.00 bucks for those pups and I think there are 2 of them. A replacement motor would be cheaper.

How do the contactors work to induce voltage to the motor? Hint this is gong to lead to another question I'm certain.

Thanks
A contactor is a type of relay. For 230V applications, it should be a double pole contactor. It has a coil, just like a relay, and your switch makes or breaks the current to the coil. So when you turn the switch on, current flows through the switch, through the coil, the coil energizes and causes the contacts to close, making the circuit from the 230V supply to your motor. The contactor has contacts that can handle large current flows, larger than a reasonably priced switch.

While you may not want to do this, an additional reason for using a contactor is that the switch voltage can be significantly less than the contact voltage. So, for example, you could have the coil energized with 12V (or 120V or any other other low voltage) while the contacts switch 230V.

Mike

[David Nelson1]

Thanks for the reply Mike. I kinda knew this already, but thought there was magic with primary and secondary windings in the motor. I might be getting 3 phase mixed in here. The toggle switch has 4 leads to it of small gauge wire. I don't know the gauge but it didn't seem like 240 would be running to the switch. The switch is still available from Delta for 50.00.

I'm going on a limb here and have to make an assumption, since there is no third leg (3 phase) to keep the contactors energized, the root cause is going to be the switch?

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the reply Mike. I kinda knew this already, but thought there was magic with primary and secondary windings in the motor. I might be getting 3 phase mixed in here. The toggle switch has 4 leads to it of small gauge wire. I don't know the gauge but it didn't seem like 240 would be running to the switch. The switch is still available from Delta for 50.00.

I'm going on a limb here and have to make an assumption, since there is no third leg (3 phase) to keep the contactors energized, the root cause is going to be the switch?

David, unless my memory is deffective, your planer doesn't have a contactor.

It has a manual starter with no overload protection. (The overload protection is built into the motor).

You need a new manual starter, in this case it's a toggle switch shaped device.

You can buy one from Delta, or purchase a 240 volt two pole, 2 HP one from your local electrical supplier.

Regards, Rod.

[David Nelson1]

I'm certain by now everyone should know I don't have a clue about what I'm asking, so here a few pics of what I have.

[John Lifer]

You've got two different capacitors there.... Is the motor a 3 phase? You seem to hint at that and I'll bet it is and you have a static phase converter. Please show us picture of motor plate. One way or the other, the switch is WAY too small for anything larger than a 1/4 hp or so motor. If it is a phase converter, do you flip this switch and then you main switch? I'd be rewiring a VFD and tossing these caps and that switch out the door. You'll gain 24 to 50% power back.
Please give us a bit more to go on!

[Curt Harms]

You've got two different capacitors there.... Is the motor a 3 phase? You seem to hint at that and I'll bet it is and you have a static phase converter. Please show us picture of motor plate. One way or the other, the switch is WAY too small for anything larger than a 1/4 hp or so motor. If it is a phase converter, do you flip this switch and then you main switch? I'd be rewiring a VFD and tossing these caps and that switch out the door. You'll gain 24 to 50% power back.
Please give us a bit more to go on!

The two capacitors could be start & run. It'd still be good to rule out 3 phase. I wonder if the toggle switch controls something like this: http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/SQUARE-D-Compact-Contactor-5B124?Pid=search $34.95 and rated 5 h.p. @ 230 volts. Do note that this particular contactor has a 24 volt coil. Note that this does not provide any overload protection; it's just on/off

[David Nelson1]

My reference to 3 phase does not apply to this machine. I was reaching back to past failures of 3 phase equipment that kept running in my old machine shop. This a single phase motor. I'm going to replace the switch with the factory item for 50.00 and call it good. I did some research on the internet last night to understand the internal operations of a 220 single phase and 220 3 phase motor. Some of the info seemed conflicted, but I do have a better understanding now. Not an expert, but just enough to be dangerous. :D

Thanks
Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

David, you have a single phase motor, with a start, and a run capacitor. That's good, a run capacitor reduces the full load current of the motor, the start capacitor is used to increase starting torque on the motor.

You have a manual motor starter that looks like a toggle switch.

That's it, period. No contactors, no 3 phase, just a 2 HP single phase motor with built in thermal overload protection and a manual starter.

You need a 2 pole 240 volt manual starter rated at 2 HP or larger. Go to your local electrical supplier with the device and they'll supply you with something identical, or very similar.

Remember to number the wires, and make a sketch of the connections before you take the "switch" out............Regards, Rod.

[John Lanciani]

That is NOT a $50 switch. At best it is a $10 motor rated double pole, single throw toggle switch with an obscenely huge markup. Take it to your local electrical supply house to get a replacement and go out to dinner tonight with the money you will save.

[David Nelson1]

manual starter = on/off switch???

[David Nelson1]

LOL I hear ya John! Now that I understand a bit more than I did, I don't think I'll have a problem with not using the "factory replacement" item.

[Rod Sheridan]

manual starter = on/off switch???

Yes, although it's a special switch, it is rated to make (Turn on), and break (turn off) the magnitudes of current associated with certain sizes of motors.

That's why in addition to voltage and current ratings, they will have a horsepower rating.

A conventional switch won't be suitable for a motor load, as a result it won't be marked with a horsepower rating.

Regards, Rod.

[Don Jarvie]

Dave, go to Mouser.com and you should be able to find a replacement toggle switch. You could also use a "light switch" type with a 20 amp rating.

Do a search at owwm.org about switches. You can learn quite a bit about.

[David Nelson1]

Rod and Don Thanks for the info !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chip Lindley]

What we have here....is failure...of a 20A-rated toggle switch.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=196536&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1306875820

Rockwell (then Delta) should be ashamed to put such a meager switch on a 12A, 230V motor. My RC-33 planer is just the same. Or was! 25 years ago I rigged up my own magnetic starter switch from junkyard HVAC parts. Maybe not up OSHA/NEMA standards, but back in the day it worked just fine, and still does.

You can look for another 20A DPST switch for your planer, OR you can ramp up to a realmotor starter--either manual or magnetic. That is subject for another thread. For now, bottom line is: your little toggle is sticking and you need a new one. They do not get any better over time.

~Chip~

[David Nelson1]

Replaced it with a 23.00 unit I got locally and it was 20 amps as well. BTW that was one good movie. Cant remember the name.... CRS LOL

[Chip Lindley]

Cool Hand Luke...Paul Newman...1967! One of my all-time FAVs! Enjoy your toggle for as long as it lasts! That could be a long time if you are just a hobby planer-user! Best of luck.
~Chip~