Orientation of Dovetails on Case Sides?

[Gary Curtis]

Which direction is best for strength? Pins vertical or Tails vertical?

I'm thinking of building a tool chest. The sides will have to bear a weight load.

[Jim Matthews]

I run boards so the grain is horizontal through both the pins, and the tails.

This gives greater mechanical strength, and the best glue surface area. I prefer the through dovetail, as there is more long grain available for the glue joint.

Note the orientation of the grain in the picture - all horizontal.196403196404

[Randy Klein]

I think he meant should the sides have the tails and the top have the pins or vice versa. I've seen this question posed a few times and the responses are usually split.

[Ben Beckham]

I would say tails on the sides, since they are carrying the load. Like a drawer side, I can't see a reason for doing it differently.

[Curt Putnam]

Through DTs are strong in one direction while in the other they can fall right out. In which direction will your case need strength?

[Jim Koepke]

Which direction is best for strength? Pins vertical or Tails vertical?

I'm thinking of building a tool chest. The sides will have to bear a weight load.

Will there be pressure pushing out on the sides? If so, the sides should have the pins.

If the chest will be lifted by the top or if there will be weight inside on the bottom being supported by the sides, then the top and bottom should have the pins.

jtk

[John Coloccia]

If you're building a tool chest, I'd orient them so the top and bottom don't fall off.

Once you glue stuff together, has anyone experienced anything falling apart regardless? Maybe with those delicate frou-frou skinny pins that everyone likes doing (jk! :) ), but more structurally oriented dovetails have a large surface area. I guess something like Titebond would eventually creep and come apart perhaps? Just curious. I know the mechanical locking is pretty strong but I haven't a clue how good the glue joint itself is.

[john brenton]

I always think about what would happen if there was no glue, and also try to imagine where the weight will be distributed. Then, if perhaps there is some other crossmember that'll either give it extra strength, or allow me to do something I wouldn't do if the crossmember weren't there.

That's a very handsome drawer, Jim M.

[Jim Matthews]

To JB -
"That's a very handsome drawer, Jim M."

I only wish that it were mine. I lifted it as an example of grain pattern last night, and can't find the builder's page.
If half my pins fit that tightly, I would be proud. I'm the king of end grain shims and "close enough".

[Ed Looney]

On the recommendations of some Creekers I purchased both Jim Kingshott and Frank Klausz DVD's on dovetails. I just watched both for the first time this last weekend. I forget which one said it but the recommendation was that the pins and tails be equal in size for maximum strength. If both are the same size it would not matter if the load was transferred from the sides to the ends. There would be as much wooden structure transferring the load as receiving it. If you have the handles on the ends of the chest and plan on pulling the handle to move the chest around the pins should be on the sides you are going to mount the handles on. Picture a kitchen drawer and note the position of the handle in relation to the dovetail on the corner. The relationship from the handle on your chest to joint should be the same. The pins on the face of the drawer are pulling on the tails cut into the sides.

Ed

[Derek Cohen]

If the carcase is hanging from the wall, then the dovetails are to prevent the sides dropping down.

If the carcase is supported on a stand or the floor, then the dovetails are to prevent the sides being pushed outward.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jamie shard]

If the carcase is hanging from the wall, then the dovetails are to prevent the sides dropping down.


... and if you use morise and tenon or sliding dovetail for at least one of the shelves/strechers, it helps lock in the sides from being pushed outwards.

[Andrae Covington]

Which direction is best for strength? Pins vertical or Tails vertical?

I'm thinking of building a tool chest. The sides will have to bear a weight load.

I'm a little confused about what you mean by vertical. After reading Derek's post I am thinking you are envisioning something hanging on the wall that will have the top and bottom dovetailed into the sides, rather than a tool chest that sits on the floor (or wheels) and has the four sides dovetailed together.

For the hanging case, I think you would want the pins on the top and bottom boards. This would allow the tailed sides to hang and not drop out, even if you didn't glue the joints together.

For a more traditional tool chest or blanket chest or whatever, then as Ed Looney said usually the pins are on the sides where the handles are, to resist the force of pulling on the handles. Aesthetically too I think most people prefer the look of the tails from side profile so it's nice to have those on the front of the chest.

As it happens, I have started building a traditional tool chest and just glued the four side panels together yesterday. Talk about needing an assistant... putting glue on 50+ dovetails and then getting it all assembled before the glue starts to set up.:eek: The dovetail joints aren't very pretty but I took the clamps off this evening and it sure seems rock solid.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...The dovetail joints aren't very pretty but I took the clamps off this evening and it sure seems rock solid.

This is what molding and half hidden or mitered dovetails are for.

Pam

[Ed Looney]

Andrae
I haven't tried it but there is a slower setting glue that is used in bag style vacuum presses. I have often wondered if it would help to use it on large glue up jobs like you were faced with. Perhaps someone who has experience with this type of glue will chime in and answer if it will help to use it on large jobs.

Ed

[Johnny Kleso]

I would build it with pins on top and bottom boards..
You will want sliding dovetails for your drawer dividers front and back ..
This will stop case from pushing apart..

[Gary Curtis]

I'm the OP on this post. My tool chest will be the carry type, with a handle on the top. Sorry I wasn't more explicit. The first response showing grain and tail direction running sideways is something I never thought of. Without question, it would be the strongest orientation.

But Andreas' remark about relative pin/tail size makes sense. It isn't pretty. I those chunky 14-degree dovetails. Yet it certainly pinpoints an era where stress would be equally distributed. As to stresses, I only worry about the dead weight pulling downward. There won't be bursting stresses. Not like a drawer holding bowling balls.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I'm the OP on this post. My tool chest will be the carry type, with a handle on the top. ...

Then I'd put the pins on the top and bottom pieces, with a sliding dovetail or two in the drawer separators. And I might want to reinforce the handle mounting points, depending on top thickness.

Further, I'd make mitered dovetails so they don't show; although, if it suits the style, I might make half-hidden dovetails and cover the tails with molding.

Pam

[Jim Neeley]

Ed,

West Systems makes their epoxy 4 different hardeners, each with differing curing speeds. The fastest has a pot life of 9-12 minutes (4 oz in a cup) and a working time of 60-70 minutes and their extra-slow offers 40-50 minutes pot life and 3-4 hours working time.

My son and I used the extra-slow to glue-up 24 pieces of 2x doug-fir 4" wide x 7' long for a benchtop in a single glue-up. This took most of 2 hours and, by the end it was getting pretty darned sticky but, it worked fine.

Since you buy the hardeners and resins separately, you can have a couple around to use. They also sell a "hand pump system" so 1 pump from each is a little under an ounce, in case you don't wantto mess with weighing to measure.

I'm not giving up on my titebond but it has its place!

The product is promoted heavily for marine and veneer bagging operations... and they sell epoxy fillers, etc. It is sold in sizes from about 1 pt up to (I think) 55 gallon drums. If you have a West Marine store near you, they are one reseller of their full line of products.

No, I have no "interest" in their business, but like using them!

I've attached the web page with their hardener info.

Jim


196582


Andrae
I haven't tried it but there is a slower setting glue that is used in bag style vacuum presses. I have often wondered if it would help to use it on large glue up jobs like you were faced with. Perhaps someone who has experience with this type of glue will chime in and answer if it will help to use it on large jobs.

Ed

[Andrae Covington]

I've never used the West epoxy but have always heard good things about it. I used Titebond Extend on my workbench top and didn't feel like I had to rush, which was good. I was using liquid hide glue for the tool chest. It has a reasonable open time, if you can keep it warm enough. My basement shop tends to cool the glue down faster than I'd like. In the end, I got it all together before the glue set; it just would have been less frantic with another set of hands.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

After seeing a video of a japanese craftsman (one which was posted here not too long ago - I'd link it if I could find it, which I might be able to if I could see videos at work - the video is terrific for a lot of things) a while back, I started using a pallette knife to apply glue. I have a few in the house from my when I did a lot more "fine art" (ha, if I could call it that!) I put some glue in a small jelly jar or the like, and use the knife to apply and spreadglue. I keep a damp rag nearby to wipe the knife quickly as needed.

I wish I had thought of this before. I don't know how well it'd work with other glues, but once you get down the touch . . . I can speed through the glue application of project much quicker than I ever could before using regular titebond. I have a couple different sized knives, some work better for joinery and others for edges. I find it much faster than a brush for titebond, although a brush would work better for hide glue, I feel. (Been a long time since I used hide.)

For particularly complex glue-ups, I like using a glue resist like waxilit. It lets me get away with being a little messier with glue application without problems down the line, so it's also quicker.

[Terry Beadle]

I agree with Mr. Kelso.

The handle on top will put most of the stress transfer to the top and bottom pieces. Therefore, the pins ( which should be equal to the width of the tails in this tool case ) will take the most of the stress. Sliding dovetails on mid-case positions will really tack it together.

In a book case, you might want the dove tails on the top and bottom pieces as the longer sides of the casement will take the most stress from side to side. However, for such large work, the equal pins and tails rule is paramount to strength. A dado mounted back panel of 1/4 to 3/8ths ply is the main contributor to racking issues. Of course, if the book case only has philosophical books in it, it will be so lite as a thought and bound by success...certainly a dove tail placement won't matter..hoot!

[Gary Curtis]

Thanks for all the responses. The more I read the thread it dawns on me that the notion of dovetails were really for bragging purposes and showing off. The tool chest will hold mostly measuring devices, so it won't weigh so much. It would sit most of the time on top of my secondary workbench.

I currently have two others. Both have finger joints (comb joints in the UK). They don't have the mechanical advantages of a dovetail, but for glue surface they can be terrific. They are antiques. One is a Union, a well-known brand. Finger joints. They must be there for a reason. Here I go....! Hijacking my own thread.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks for all the responses. The more I read the thread it dawns on me that the notion of dovetails were really for bragging purposes and showing off. ...

The display of end grain is probably not something to brag about.

Pam

[john brenton]

End grain is beautiful, and exposed endgrain on DT's popped by the saturation of oil or stain is a visual experience that I never get tired of. Proudly displaying nicely cut DTs for the whole world to see is your right. And if they're not so nicely cut, it's a nice reminder of how far you're coming along. The idea that exposed joinery or end grain is mediocre work, is antiquated.


Thanks for all the responses. The more I read the thread it dawns on me that the notion of dovetails were really for bragging purposes and showing off. The tool chest will hold mostly measuring devices, so it won't weigh so much. It would sit most of the time on top of my secondary workbench.

I currently have two others. Both have finger joints (comb joints in the UK). They don't have the mechanical advantages of a dovetail, but for glue surface they can be terrific. They are antiques. One is a Union, a well-known brand. Finger joints. They must be there for a reason. Here I go....! Hijacking my own thread.

[Pam Niedermayer]

End grain is beautiful, and exposed endgrain on DT's popped by the saturation of oil or stain is a visual experience that I never get tired of. Proudly displaying nicely cut DTs for the whole world to see is your right. And if they're not so nicely cut, it's a nice reminder of how far you're coming along. The idea that exposed joinery or end grain is mediocre work, is antiquated.

Each to his own, and I might agree with you on drawers, maybe; but there is that thing about moisture. Also, no way it can be said that exposed end grain doesn't break up a line here and there; although one could claim it as design.

Pam

[Frank Drew]

The display of end grain is probably not something to brag about.

Pam,

How do you mean? There are lots of joinery and furniture situations where the exposed end grain is neither inappropriate nor unattractive (through dovetails such as on a blanket chest; table tops; bed posts; cabinet door stiles.... to name just a few.)

[Pam Niedermayer]

How do you mean? There are lots of joinery and furniture situations where the exposed end grain is neither inappropriate nor unattractive (through dovetails such as on a blanket chest; table tops; bed posts; cabinet door stiles.... to name just a few.)

None of it is inappropriate, but there are more refined ways of doing things. Such as this Shaker cabinet:

[john brenton]

I would never suggest that a big row of through dovetails is a good design choice on every piece of furniture, but end grain can and does play a significant role in a piece's character. It seemed to me and apparently another poster that you had some kind of philosophy against it, which is fine as we all have different opinions...but the way you said it yadda yadda. You know the drill. Moving on.


Each to his own, and I might agree with you on drawers, maybe; but there is that thing about moisture. Also, no way it can be said that exposed end grain doesn't break up a line here and there; although one could claim it as design.

Pam

[John Coloccia]

The only rule that matters, in my opinion, is:

- If it looks good and it works, it's properly designed.

Everything else is theoretical musings convolved with opinion.

[Ed Looney]

None of it is inappropriate, but there are more refined ways of doing things. Such as this Shaker cabinet:

Pam

Those who like the design of Stickley or Green and Green may disagree with you on the issue of refinement.

Ed

[Pam Niedermayer]

Those who like the design of Stickley or Green and Green may disagree with you on the issue of refinement.

Gee, wonder why I already said "to each his own?"

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

The only rule that matters, in my opinion, is:

- If it looks good and it works, it's properly designed.

Everything else is theoretical musings convolved with opinion.

The whole point, with a note that there are often other points of view that are perfectly valid.

Pam