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Josh Rudolph
05-29-2011, 11:15 AM
I am getting ready to start a project that will be a lot of curly maple. Power tools will do the brunt of the work and I will cleanup with hand tools.

I have a 3,4, and 4 1/2 that works great, but I still get some small spots of tearout here and there. My blades are sharp and polished, I just get a few trouble spots every now and again.

Would I be better served to try one of the low-angle bevel up smoothers, a higher frog, or just stick with a scraper.

Any inputs and opinions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Josh

Tony Shea
05-29-2011, 11:41 AM
I recently went through the same issues with some curly birds eye maple I have had kicking around. I just never did much with it because I didn't have the right set-up to get good results from it with having to scrape the hell out of it. I recently took the plunge in the BU Jack plane that LV offers mainly for shooting with the low angle blades. But I also thought I'd order a few extra 25* blades to throw different micro-bevel angles on. All I have to say is WOW. This plane has become the most versatile tool in my shop. I've honed on of those blades at a 45* micro-bevel with plenty of camber due to the BU physics, which creates a planing angle of 57*. I have yet to come accross some crazy stock I can't plane through with this blade. Very simple plane to change blades on and simple to hone different angles with the 25* blades. I highly reccomend it and can't figure out why I waited so long to get one. Oh, and it is a shooting machine with the lower angle blades.

The higher angle blades can wear much faster and can wear the back of blade more than a BD plane. After a while of this wear on the back of the blade you will need to grind past this point and start your bevel over again. Therefore this config. is better suited for final smoothing and not heavy stock removal, in my experience.

Chris Fournier
05-29-2011, 11:48 AM
I've used an awful lot of curly maple over the years and I personally have always reached for a bench plane. A freshly sharpened bench plane I should add.

Where you just can't seem to beat the tearout try this:

Identify the problem spot and use a very damp cloth or plant mister to moisten the area. Let the water soak into the maple a minute or two say. Now set your plane for a very fine cut and I have found that you can reduce the tearout almost completely. Sometimes you need to finish with a scraper - carefully, too much scraping on curly woods tends to telegraph the figure on the surface.

george wilson
05-29-2011, 1:03 PM
As many of you know,grinding a steep angle on the front edge of the iron,so that it scrapes as much as it cuts,is a good way to plane figured wood. However, I had excellent results with the BU LN plane we had at work,without any modifications to the cutting angle.

In the millwork shop near my shop,they had a Northfield thickness planer that used carbide inserts that had an extremely steel cutting angle. Not the usual type inserts that you see with spiral heads. These required grinding with a grinder that mounted on the planer. They stuck up at a very steep angle,so that they scraped the wood. It did a remarkable job on curly maple I ran through it. A normal planer would have ruined the wood that their planer planed smooth. Same with a hand plane.

Nelson Howe
05-29-2011, 2:40 PM
I've had good luck with a 50 degree Steve Knight infill smoother with a tight mouth and sharp iron.

Nelson

Jim R Edwards
05-29-2011, 3:01 PM
I use a LVBUS for difficult woods with great results. I also had good results with a LN 4 1/2 with a 50 degree frog at the LN tool show in Tampa. They had curly maple there and their planes worked very well too! I do no not own a LN 4 1/2, only used it at their show. Another tool I think is great for tear out is a LN 212 scraper. It doesn't get a lot of attention but it is one of the best tools I own. Highly recommend it.

John Tallyn
05-29-2011, 6:56 PM
I've been working on some birds eye maple and some ribbon stripe mahogany,both were tearing out until I went to the LV low angle jack, bu, with the 50* blade. I've had no tear out since using that. I thought I was going to have sand my way thru both of these woods, love the LV low angle jack.
John

Josh Rudolph
05-29-2011, 7:34 PM
I have been considering the LV low angle smoother. Would I be better suited for an all-around plane by going with the jack? Or should I stick with a smoother for removing mill marks and finish prep?

Just so I am not overlooking its benefits, is the toothed blade more intended to be used with the jack plane, or does it equally have its place with a smoother. The way I use the smoother is for removing mill marks, so the wood is essentially flat only needing cleanup. I don't know that I understand the use of a toothed blade with that plane in this application.

Am I overlooking a potential benefit? Or would the 50* be my best bet?

James Owen
05-29-2011, 7:34 PM
Try the 50˚ or 55˚ frog for the LN 4-1/2 or 5-1/2.

Josh Rudolph
05-29-2011, 11:37 PM
Try the 50˚ or 55˚ frog for the LN 4-1/2 or 5-1/2.

James,

As much as I would love to jump into a LN setup the budget does not allow for a $400 investment. I am having enough of a conflict with myself over the LV smoother.

Almost all of my hand planes are old Stanley's (I have 3 LV planes) that I have tuned up and get good performance out of. The only times I wish for more is when I hit gnarly or figured grain. There always seems to be some spots that I can't get with my Stanley's.

Thanks,
Josh

Curt Putnam
05-30-2011, 12:37 AM
IMO, the LV BUS will handle smoothing jobs as well or better than other planes. I believe it comes with a 30 degree blade, buy some additional 25 degree blades and then micro-bevel them to 50 degrees or higher (whatever you desire.) The toothed blade (I've not used one) has 2 uses that I know of: one is prepping a surface for veneering and the other is for handling really gnarly grain. Apparently it simply does not tear out. One cleans up afterwards with a very finely set smoother or a scraper. Derek Cohen thinks very highly of the BUS - check out his website.

Eric Brown
05-30-2011, 6:23 AM
I have the LVBUJ with several blades including the toothed one. It does a great job preping rough cut lumber. No tearout. I also had an interesting realization of one limitation. It will not work well on a shooting board. Once it makes the initial cut, that's it. After that it bottoms on the cut grooves. In order for the toothed blade to work it must be moved around. Silly me!

Live and learn. Eric

jamie shard
05-30-2011, 7:52 AM
I am having enough of a conflict with myself over the LV smoother.

The only times I wish for more is when I hit gnarly or figured grain. There always seems to be some spots that I can't get with my Stanley's.


Seems like you should try a back bevel before spending money on a LV smoother. Adding 10 degrees to the back will give you the angle you are looking for... and it might save some money that can be spent on more curly maple.

(I admit I'm curious if it will work for you for my own reasons... I have a stanley #3 that I'm going to back bevel, I think. I just haven't had the pleasure of such nice wood to require it yet.)

Josh Rudolph
05-30-2011, 8:45 AM
Seems like you should try a back bevel before spending money on a LV smoother. Adding 10 degrees to the back will give you the angle you are looking for

I do back bevel my planes. Not to a set angle, more of the "ruler trick" to remove the burr. You think a set 10* back bevel would make a difference? How would that be different than adding a few more degrees to the microbevel and still doing a "standard" back bevel?

David Weaver
05-30-2011, 9:55 AM
Adding 10 degrees should make a big difference. The bevel can be very small, like just a few swipes on a stone, so that it doesn't leave you tons of work to do to remove it. The steeper it is, the easier it'll be to keep it short.

If the chipbreaker is tuned well, you have the option of setting that within a few thousandths of the edge (like sheet of copy paper thickness for a gauge). Careful of the edge of the iron when setting it, though. If you're going to do a lot of work, i think this is more fidgety than just back beveling the iron.

If you go with a back bevel, 10-20 degrees is probably a practical working range for a bench plane. Less than 10 makes little difference. You can go steeper than 20, but there's no need to and the finish will be worse the steeper you go.

Wet cloth like Chris says works well, too.

No need to do two tricks at a time, some of them can create trouble if used together (i.e., closely set chipbreaker and super tight mouth can create feeding problems)

Sam Takeuchi
05-30-2011, 10:05 AM
First of all, what you are concerned here is higher cutting angle. You don't gain anything by giving steeper micro bevel on bevel down plane when it comes to how it planes the wood. Second, ruler trick adds around 1/2 degree or so of back bevel if you use 0.5mm ruler on somewhat standard size stone.

What you need is higher cutting angle and back bevel adds exactly that. You need a way to add consistent angle for uniform performance and probably a honing guide would be handy here. 10 degree back bevel would give 55 degree cutting angle, 15 degree back bevel would give you 60. What you could aim for is lowest cutting angle that gets the material smooth and clean, but you don't need to be precise and if you decide to go with 15 degree back bevel, that shouldn't be inferior to a surface achieved by 10 degree back beveled blade.

It works quite well, but once you are done with it, you need to get rid of that back bevel by grinding it off. Or you can dedicate that particular blade as back bevel blade and get a new blade for ordinary planing needs.

Josh Rudolph
05-30-2011, 11:07 AM
First of all, what you are concerned here is higher cutting angle. You don't gain anything by giving steeper micro bevel on bevel down plane when it comes to how it planes the wood. Second, ruler trick adds around 1/2 degree or so of back bevel if you use 0.5mm ruler on somewhat standard size stone.

What you need is higher cutting angle and back bevel adds exactly that. You need a way to add consistent angle for uniform performance and probably a honing guide would be handy here. 10 degree back bevel would give 55 degree cutting angle, 15 degree back bevel would give you 60. What you could aim for is lowest cutting angle that gets the material smooth and clean, but you don't need to be precise and if you decide to go with 15 degree back bevel, that shouldn't be inferior to a surface achieved by 10 degree back beveled blade.

It works quite well, but once you are done with it, you need to get rid of that back bevel by grinding it off. Or you can dedicate that particular blade as back bevel blade and get a new blade for ordinary planing needs.

Sam,

This makes perfect sense now that I have actually taken the time to think about it. I was heavily favoring buying a smoother from LV, but am now heavily leaning on getting another blade for one of my smoothers and dedicating the blade to a back bevel for figured woods. (I know it is blasphemy to pass on getting a new tool!)

Now...the hard part is which smoother do I get another blade for...the 3, 4, or 4 1/2.
BTW, the project will be a crib for our second child. The spindles are going to be 1 1/2" wide, so I am thinking the #4 may be the one getting the new blade.

Terry Beadle
05-30-2011, 11:21 AM
LN and LV are not the exclusive suppliers of knarly wood solutions. The HNT Gordon ebony palm smoother I own has always performed extremely well and cost considerably less than a HA Frog LN. Also, I have a Japanese kana with 47 1/2 degree bed and an excellent iron. It too costs less than half the cost of a LN and just slightly more than a LV.

I mention these other options because I'm tight with a buck but I have to have good results.

Scrapers, either card or plane based, will take care of knarly wood scenarios ALWAYS...IMO. They be cheap too !

If you have access to David Charlesworths video Furniture Making Techniques - Five Topics, he has a solid segment on how to take care of knarly wood situations with standard planes. Back bevels, shaving settings, and sharpening tips are included. Recommended.

Jim Belair
05-30-2011, 11:24 AM
The steeper the angle the more difficult the plane is to push so the #4 would be a good choice.

Jim B

Paul Ryan
05-30-2011, 2:29 PM
I own all 3 LV BU planes. If I could only keep one it would be the smoother just by a hair. The jack is really useful as well. But I have a hard time using the jack to smooth some panels because it end up taking off too much material to get into some of the low spots. I really despise sanding. So I try to smooth everything and just avoid sanding. I have not found a wood that my 50 degree blade will not smooth without tear out. The jack is very useful as well. But to long for low spots like planer snipe areas and seams between panels. The smoother comes with a 38 degree blade but you can have LV change that to a 25, 50, or toothed blade if you like. There is considerable more force required to push the 50 over the 38 but the 50 does a better job on goofy grains. The 25 blade is only good for soft woods, end grains, and heavy stock removal IMHO.

James Owen
05-30-2011, 3:31 PM
James,

As much as I would love to jump into a LN setup the budget does not allow for a $400 investment. I am having enough of a conflict with myself over the LV smoother. ....

Thanks,
Josh

Josh,

Completely understand about the investment and budget part. Have that problem, too.....

Another possibility are the 63˚ Chinese-style rosewood planes that Japan Woodworker sells. They run in the $50 to $65 dollar range (+/-) -- depending on size -- have really nice quality irons, and work very well on gnarly woods like bird's eye or curly maple, curly Jatoba, mesquite, etc.

Jim Belair
05-30-2011, 6:19 PM
Another possibility are the 63˚ Chinese-style rosewood planes that Japan Woodworker sells.

+1

Lee Valley sells them too.

Chris Fournier
05-30-2011, 6:27 PM
Planes can be like rabbits and the population can rise dramatically in a hurry. This is money tied up in tools that may no really be earning their keep! I'd go for another blade and the back bevel - the cheapest path to the results you're after; unless you just buck up and try the wet cloth approach and that's free!

Zahid Naqvi
05-30-2011, 6:43 PM
how about just using sandpaper for the troublespots.

Josh Rudolph
05-30-2011, 7:02 PM
how about just using sandpaper for the troublespots.

Zahid,

Please quit using those bad words (sandpaper) in my presence. :) Just kidding.

I actually placed an order with Craftsman Studio a little while ago for another blade for my #4. Gave me a chance to get a Hock setup for the #3 also. Been wanting to do it for a while now.

I have been milling the curly maple most of the afternoon with power tools. I have the carbide indexed heads in both the jointer and planer and have been getting tearout with them. They are usually good with the gnarly stuff, but the more figured it gets, the harder it is to get a good clean pass.

The new blade with the back bevel should help tremendously.

Josh Rudolph
06-03-2011, 6:19 PM
I received the blades yesterday and sharpened them last night with a 10* back bevel. I just tried it on a scrap piece and the results so far are awesome. I will try on a bigger and hopefully gnarlier piece this evening and give a report back. But so far so good.

Josh Rudolph
06-04-2011, 4:43 PM
The 10* back bevel is definitely the trick. Works like a charm. Just to verify, I try smoothing some with my #3 and get some light tear out. I come behind it with the back beveled #4 and it cleans it right up with no problems. Been using it on and off today and no tearout so far.

Garth Jones
06-04-2011, 6:41 PM
Another option - make a plane with the angle you want. Last year I made myself two Krenov-style planes. One is a regular jack, and the other is a smoother (about the size of a #4) with a 55 degree bed angle. It has a Hock iron in it (they're great!) and I always have it set to take a light cut. It will plane just about anything without tearout. The planes are purpleheat, which I just had laying around, so the only cost was the irons/chipbreakers (about $50 each).

My $0.02.....

Garth

Eddie Darby
06-05-2011, 12:23 AM
Try some back-bevels for a start, to see how things clean-up. If it works, then you may want to try a dedicated blade sharpened with a back-bevel.
The back-bevel need only be thicker than the shaving being taken.

David Keller NC
06-05-2011, 8:40 AM
Josh - If you're getting tearout with carbide-insert planer/jointer tooling, you might want to examine the inserts to see if they need to be rotated 90 degrees. Carbide insert tooling isn't foolproof, but unless you're taking off a large amount of wood in a single pass, I'm surprised you're getting noticeable tearout.