Buying a computer, should I get a Mac?

[Paul Steiner]

I am in the market for a computer and I am going to buy a brand new and an upper end model. My needs are as follows
1. internet access
2. word processing
3. working with family photos and videos
4. drawing plans with autocad
My biggest gripes about my 2 current PCs is that after 2 to 3 years they get slow and have virus problems. So I am considering a Mac but having only owned PCs I am still skeptical as far as the price v. quality.
Thoughts, advice, experiences, I am all ears.

[Jim Leslie]

My career was based on PC's and I have used them since they came without hard drives, so that goes back a long time. Remember the IBM PC? I've gone from there to Windows XP, Windows servers, etc. In my personal life I have also had PC's at home - all MS Windows of course. Maybe it's because of this and much negative experience; sometimes feeling like a cash cow always having to upgrade and buy virus s/w that a couple of years ago I switched to an iMac. I'd go back to PC's only at gunpoint. My wife, son and daughter also have iMacs and everyone feels the same. Most of my use is like you, ie: items 1-3. Actually not 4. If you want 4, I would suggest Gimp which is free. I loaded and used it briefly but prefer working in wood.
For what it's worth. Feel free PM me if you have any questions. We've been living in a PC free environment for a few years now. And I no longer have to buy virus s/w...

[Scott Shepherd]

I've been using PC's since they were made available to the public. I use PC's every day, 7 days a week, and have for a long, long time.

I picked up a Mac about 2 weeks ago, and it's my first mac.

Is it easy to use? I don't know, some things confuse the crap out of me. Most of the time it's because of my previous education with PC's. For instance, I didn't understand the whole "installing and deleting software" thing on a mac. It's a bit of an odd thing. Then I googled it and had a "Duh" moment. Want to remove an application? There is no "uninstall". You just drag it to the trash can. Done. Oh, okay....didn't know that.

In 2 weeks there have been many of those moments. However, in those 2 weeks, I have accomplished some things I was really battling on a PC. For instance, the integration between products is AWESOME. Dealing with photos, videos, making DVD's, etc. is OUTSTANDING.

I find I have produced much more creative things than I ever did before and it's because of the ease of use and the integration of all the various programs. It's very easy to take photos, drop them into a movie and then, if you want, burn them to disc, or share the movie with others.

I use Pages to do text documents, and I can't say that's been an easy transition, but it's a completely different angle on working with documents. The more I understand how it's set up, the more it all makes sense and I'm happy with it.

I can't say it's better or worse than a PC. All I can say is that it's different and some things are much easier for me, and some things still confuse me a great deal.

The biggest thing for me is all the little things that seem to almost happen automatically. For instance, someone sent me an email and said "Do you want to meet me tonight at 8:00?". When I was reading it, my cursor hit the "tonight at 8:00" and it popped up with a little arrow on it. I clicked it and a pop up came up and it said "Do you want to add this to your calender?". Oh, cool! Cool because that calendar is synched with my phone automatically. There are lots of little things like that, that make the user experience seem more intuitive to me. Are they big deals? No. But a lot of little deals can add up to 1 big deal.

iPhoto works fairly well. It scans for faces too, so once you map a few faces, then it will search all your photos for that face and put each one in it's own "folder". So you can click on "Faces" and it'll show a board full of faces and names. You click on one and it'll pull up all photos with that persons face on it. It seems to work well and I really like that feature as I have about 15,000 photos. I can't say I understand iphoto all that well yet. I don't quite get the organization of it all, but I'm learning.

I've had it crash several times, I've had it lock up and I've had to do the "control alt. delete" equivalent a couple of times. So I can't say it operates any different than a PC, but I do know that it's allowed me to do things, things with software that comes on the Mac, that I have purchased very expensive software for on the PC.

I think if you wanted to pick apart either, you could. But all in all, I'd have to say that the user experience, for me, has been more fluid, and more natural in many ways. I have yet to look for a piece of software for it that I couldn't find.

That's just my experience with it. Someone else may have the exact opposite experience.

[Greg Peterson]

Apple makes fantastic products. No question about it. One fundamental reason for this is Apple's closed ecosystem.

I am a PC guy, VIC 20 to Windows Server 2008. Like Scott, I find many actions things confusing and counter intuitive to my knowledge base. All those keyboard shortcuts for the Windows OS and various programs? Don't count. If you are a mouse centric user, you have little to worry about. I try to avoid the mouse as much as possible, so when ever I find myself using the IMac at work I stumble around far more than I care for.

Apple Pages (their take on word processing and desktop publishing) is top notch. I gave up on their spreadsheet Numbers.

The file management on the Apple OS is probably my biggest complaint. It just doesn't make much sense to me. But then again, neither does Windows 7. I guess in both Apple and MS attempt to make file management easy for most people they've made it confusing for a smaller segment of users.

I am looking into video editing software and hardware. Apple is clearly in the running.

[Phil Thien]

I use them both.

The largest reason to go Mac is to avoid viruses, AFAIC.

But that may be coming to an end.

http://www.virusbtn.com/virusbulletin/archive/2011/05/vb201105-news

I think there is a very good chance there will be wide-spread infections on Mac machines by the end of the year.

And so few people on Mac have any antivirus software, and there is so little knowledge about cleaning them, that the entire Mac universe may grind to a halt when it hits.

[Bryan Morgan]

I am in the market for a computer and I am going to buy a brand new and an upper end model. My needs are as follows
1. internet access
2. word processing
3. working with family photos and videos
4. drawing plans with autocad
My biggest gripes about my 2 current PCs is that after 2 to 3 years they get slow and have virus problems. So I am considering a Mac but having only owned PCs I am still skeptical as far as the price v. quality.
Thoughts, advice, experiences, I am all ears.

This is a loaded question you know... the type of question that sparks wars. Zealots on either side. :)

Macs these days ARE PCs on the inside. They are well built but you can get a PC with way better specs for much less money. They aren't virus free like everyone claims and they do crash just like a Windows machine. It boils down to preference. There isn't a ton of difference between Windows 7 and MacOS. Apple support is pretty good but you must play by their rules. There are cults and zealots on either side of the issue so you really need to sit down in front of each and see which you'd rather spend your money on.

[glenn bradley]

Blind prejudice aside (you'll get plenty of that); the folks who handle such things report that they clean up as many MAC and Linux machines at work as they do Windows. The problems that used to plague Windows more than others (due to sheer number of users) has pretty nearly homogenized. Keeping your machine uncluttered to avoid slowdown and keeping it virus free is a social problem as much as a technical one. Practice good use and maintenance habits, use good protective products and, your user experience should be pretty consistent.

[Paul Wunder]

Paul,

It seems that your main gripe about PC's are virus's and slowing down. Both could be a function of the following:

What browser are you using? If you are using Internet Explorer (particularly an earlier version) try using Firefox 4.0. I made the switch years ago and said goodbye to viruses. I use it at home and also converted our office network. No viruses. No crashes. Do you clear your Temporary Internet files on a regular basis by going to your Control Panel Internet Options? That is a major cause for slowdowns. Some virus programs compete with your operating system and applications for resources which will also cause slowdowns. Get a simple virus program such as McAfee and stay away from the complex "do all" versions. Virus programs such as Norton had a history of using large amounts of your PC resources. If you are hooked up to cable TV/Internet your provider may offer a free security package such as McAfee. Stay away from CA (Computer Associates).

Looking at your list of needs I believe it is overkill to buy a "high end machine" unless your photo and video needs include major editing and preparation of videos with music and voice overs and special effects. If you have such a need, consider a MAC, if your needs are more modest stay with the PC.

[Scott Shepherd]

But that may be coming to an end.

Or, it may not.



the entire Mac universe may grind to a halt when it hits.

Or, it may not.

People have been saying the virus' are coming for Mac's for 10 years now. Live in the current, not the future of what could happen.

There are many anti-virus programs available for the Mac, and as soon as a nasty one comes along, it'll be front page news and everyone in the world will know about it, because it'll be the "I told you Mac's could get virus' " story that will be on every news channel for weeks. When that happens, you can buy the protection you need. Until then, not much to worry about as long as you keep your OS up to date.

[Joe Angrisani]

Apple makes fantastic products. No question about it. One fundamental reason for this is Apple's closed ecosystem......

I once heard "Apple is for people who used to believe in God, and are looking for a substitute".

From what I've seen, it's only a half-joke. :)




I am in the market for a computer......My biggest gripes about my 2 current PCs is that after 2 to 3 years they get slow and have virus problems......

This is most definitely a "maintenance" issue and not a PC issue. Our two computers are almost 8 years old, running WinXP, and anytime I start to see a slow-down, a quick scrub with one of the many freeware programs gets them right back where they were.

I'd get a PC. Much more for much less. Apple is a fashion company as much as a tech company, and you pay up for fashion, no doubt about it.

[David Weaver]

AVG, malwarebytes, etc. are free for PCs.

I've never spent a nickel on virus software, and one of my PCs is near 10 years old (it is just about useless as anything other than a word processor and internet surfer now, though), and the other 3.

All you need to learn on a PC is to understand what processes appear to be legit and if you think something has slipped under the free AV radar, then you can go through the processes on google and find out.

I am only a half-hearted user in terms of knowing what's going on in my PC, i'm sure the more avid folks could tell us better free programs than I've mentioned.

[Phil Thien]

People have been saying the virus' are coming for Mac's for 10 years now. Live in the current, not the future of what could happen.

I'm not sure what to say to that. First, people HAVE been saying viruses are coming to the Mac for a long time. It is an obvious prediction to make, because it is true. It IS only a matter of time.

More to the point, VB magazine is writing about the code they're seeing. People are actually writing code, and sharing it. They aren't doing this because they AREN'T going to release the code.

Finally, if I was purchasing a new computer and was considering a Mac just because I'm tired of viruses, I'd sure want someone to tell me of such a development.


There are many anti-virus programs available for the Mac, and as soon as a nasty one comes along, it'll be front page news and everyone in the world will know about it, because it'll be the "I told you Mac's could get virus' " story that will be on every news channel for weeks. When that happens, you can buy the protection you need. Until then, not much to worry about as long as you keep your OS up to date.

All those virus products for the Mac are largely untested in their ability to fend-off a major outbreak, and likely won't even work as well as the products for Windows. And we know how well those work.

In addition, many service shops are not equipped for a Mac virus onslaught. My shop has four machines dedicated to virus cleaning, but they will only work on Windows machines. I have two Macs I could dedicate, if need be. My largest competitor doesn't work on Mac, period.

If there is an outbreak, finding a shop with the expertise to help, which can do so in a timely manner, may be difficult.

Ignoring any of those possibilities, IMHO, just isn't prudent. I'm not saying not to buy Mac. I'm just saying, don't buy it solely because you think you'll be safe from viruses.

Last point: On a properly configured Win7 machine (all accounts running as limited user expect one admin account that isn't normally use by anyone in the family), viruses just aren't scary. Don't give your kid's the admin password, and the worst that will happen is you will get annoyance viruses that are easily removed.

[Greg Peterson]

I agree with Phil. Last week the boss' IMac was exposed to the Mac virus. Fortunately she called me up to look at the screen shot. I had to do a double take. I determined it was not a legitimate email and trying to close it started an automatic download of a program.

The Apple universe has been insulated from virus', malware and trojans because the math didn't add up. Professional virus writers went where the greatest exposure existed. There is nothing preventing a malware app from trying to download itself and prompting the user to provide the admin password. Tricking users into installing malware is not restricted to any one environment.

Apple has relied on their small foot print in the market. As they continue to grow they will need to be more proactive in protecting the OS and educating their users.

I still think they are one of the most innovative companies in tech field, and they make great products. I just don't like the fact that you are locked into Apple. Love my IPod Nano 3rd generation. Hate that I have to use ITunes to manage it.

[Jim Koepke]

I have been primarily a Mac user since they first appeared on the market.

I have used PCs, but prefer Macs.

Most of my creative work is with graphics and such.

Anyone who tries to tell you Macs are immune from viruses is lying to you.

There is always some disturbed miscreant somewhere who wants to be the one to mess up people's lives. They also work at messing with Macs.

I have been a member of a Macintosh user's group for almost twenty years. They are tending to disappear with the internet, but they have equivalents on the net.

Most of it is the same precautions one should take with a PC. Don't download everything there is to down load from every site you happen to by chance to land.

I think half of those flashing pop up ads with too good to be true offers are a lot of the problem. I tend to avoid any site that automatically tries to sneak something onto my screen without me knowing.

I send a lot of my mail to the "Junk Mail" folder. On the Mac Mail program if it is in this folder, the images do not load and let the sender know the mail was opened. A lot of my junk mail is bounced back to the sender so their mail program sees my eddress as if it doesn't exist. Gets rid of a lot of spam that way.

No matter what system you have, you have to remain vigilant about what you allow to enter your computer's environment.

If an email comes to me from an unknown source, it is bounced. If it is from a friend, they will tell me that my eddress didn't work.

You also need to apply the updates for security patches whether you have a PC or a Mac.

jtk

[Shawn Pixley]

Admittedly, I am biased to Macs. I use both Macs and PC (required for work) and can function either way. For scientific programs, music, or graphics, mac is generally preferred. No computers are immune to viruses. but with a modicum of care, you can do just fine. No every Apple product is superior. For instance I would recommend Firefox over Safari, Thunderbird over Mail and Microsoft office also works well on the Mac. Aperture is the upgrade to iPhoto and is superior in many ways. The best things about the Mac are lack of maintenance effort and longevity.

I recently went to an iMac after my ten year old quicksiver tower finally died. The ten year old machine worked well until it had a catastrophic motherboard failure. In the time I had had the one Mac, I had 6 PC Laptops at work. The effort in keeping the 6 PC's functioning was greater per machine by an order of magnitude than my Mac.

If you want to play computer games however, the PC has many more options. Lucky for me, I don't care much

[Bryan Morgan]

For scientific programs, music, or graphics, mac is generally preferred.

We recently took away a couple Mac Pros from our designers because they never used them. Also, one of our big customers is the design part of a major auto manufacturer... not too long ago they replaced all of their Macs with PCs (hp z400's I believe...). The old "Macs are better for graphics" stuff just doesn't hold up any more. Even our production staff which is equipped with Macs and PCs rarely use the Macs because no clients ever bring us Mac files to work on... just sayin'

[Bill ThompsonNM]

I have 2 pc's, one Linux laptop and two macs at home. The pc's take about 10 times the time to maintain as the 3 other machines. With 35 years in the computer industry - I usually recommend a Mac when friends ask. At least then I know I won't be spending time at their house fixing their machine. I maintain 16 machines at work and I'm now veterinarian. Can't seem to get away from fixing Windows machines. Sigh.

[Scott Shepherd]

Phil, my point was simply that if you had listened to people in 200(3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) about the upcoming threat to Mac's and it scared you away from Mac's, then you would have missed 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 years of not having to worry about it at all. Will it come? Sure. Am I going to change my buying choice of something that may happen this year, next year, or 5 years from now? No.

http://www.macworld.com/article/156744/2010/12/2011_viruses.html

I didn't get a Mac to stop dealing with virus'. As I stated above, I really think the user experience is much more fluid and intuitive, that's why I like it. The built is software that works well together allows me to do things that I'd normally have to spend $100's of dollars on other software to do. I don't care which one anyone buys, I was responding to a question and I gave my personal experience with them.

And let's be clear, there is a huge difference in a virus and malware. There are malware programs out there (macdefender), but I don't think there are too many virus'. Also, let's be clear. If there does come a day where there is one for the mac and it's going around, that'll be 1. Right now, how many are there for the PC? A 100,000? A 1,000,000? I think I like my odds on that one on the mac a lot better.

[Phil Thien]

Phil, my point was simply that if you had listened to people in 200(3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10) about the upcoming threat to Mac's and it scared you away from Mac's, then you would have missed 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 years of not having to worry about it at all. Will it come? Sure. Am I going to change my buying choice of something that may happen this year, next year, or 5 years from now? No.

http://www.macworld.com/article/156744/2010/12/2011_viruses.html

I'll see you that article and raise you this:

http://www.macworld.com/article/159595/2011/05/macdefender_trojan_horse.html

and this:

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_18147537?nclick_check=1

and my favorite, this:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2074148/mac-anti-virus-malware-evolving-fast-doesnt-password

"Mac fake anti-virus malware is evolving fast, doesn't need a password"


I didn't get a Mac to stop dealing with virus'. As I stated above, I really think the user experience is much more fluid and intuitive, that's why I like it. The built is software that works well together allows me to do things that I'd normally have to spend $100's of dollars on other software to do. I don't care which one anyone buys, I was responding to a question and I gave my personal experience with them.

What built-in software are you referring to?


And let's be clear, there is a huge difference in a virus and malware. There are malware programs out there (macdefender), but I don't think there are too many virus'. Also, let's be clear. If there does come a day where there is one for the mac and it's going around, that'll be 1. Right now, how many are there for the PC? A 100,000? A 1,000,000? I think I like my odds on that one on the mac a lot better.

Well, malware just stands for "malicious software." Don't get hung up on whether something is a virus, a Trojan, etc. They're all bad, they all interfere with getting work done, and they all result in costs to the user (either purchasing software to get rid of them, paying someone else to, or lost productivity as you do the work yourself).

The Mac Defender you refer to is the sort of malware that Windows users are struggling with. 99% of infections are of this sort. These are the infections that have been driving people nuts.

2011 may well be the year of the onslaught.

Keep in mind, BTW, that the latest incarnation of some of this PC crap is actually hiding every file it can find on the hard drive. In some cases it is only hiding files in the user's folder, in a few I've seen it hide every single file on the drive.

We're about this far (holds up index finger and thumb with little separation) from some script kiddy getting this code, modifying it, and having it actually delete files on the hard drive. Or worse, overwriting files on the hard drive.

So everyone (PC and Mac) should be backing up their important files routinely.

[Shawn Pixley]

We recently took away a couple Mac Pros from our designers because they never used them. Also, one of our big customers is the design part of a major auto manufacturer... not too long ago they replaced all of their Macs with PCs (hp z400's I believe...). The old "Macs are better for graphics" stuff just doesn't hold up any more. Even our production staff which is equipped with Macs and PCs rarely use the Macs because no clients ever bring us Mac files to work on... just sayin'

I don't know what your industry is, but I have yet to meet a graphic designer that switched from using a Mac to using a PC without being forced to by their employer. There are big forces on employers (internal and external) to convert to PC's. This tends to follow a few patterns such as lowest initial cost (don't get me started on lifecycle cost analysis), capabilities of internal tech support, (typically PC focused), and readiness to enable outsourced tech support (seldom Mac capable). I could draw the analogy to the Eisenhower quote, "...we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex." The pressures for conformity in computer "thinking" are immense. Please note that I used the term preferred. I would prefer to use a Mac at work, I am required to use a PC.
As to CADD modeling or BIM, the PC's are ahead there. A major reason that Macs tend to dominate the creative type, I believe, comes from a left brain, right brain type of criteria. The intuitive nature of a Mac interface is not a hindrance to the creative process. From my experience with the PC, there are more brain cells dedicated to the question, "how do I get the computer to do this?", than to the design you are creating. This flips when you go from designing to drafting where the precision aspect cuts in. Page layout is in that space. I suspect that is part of what you are seeing when you reference your experience with the auto manufacturer.

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes Phil, and here's the article to support it's not a big deal....

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4650

Now, read that article carefully. I suggest many people do. Actually read it and the steps. First and foremost, the OS update is resolving this issue, so it'll be a non starter in conversation as of Friday, until something new comes out. I think it's excellent that a major malware comes out and it's almost immediate addressed as the OS level.

Now, let's go through the article for removal, just in case you did get it.

If it's not installed :


1) Go into the Downloads folder or your preferred download location.
2) Drag the installer to the Trash.
3) Empty the Trash.

If you did get it installed

1) Move or close the Scan Window
2) Go to the Utilities folder in the Applications folder and launch Activity Monitor
3) Choose All Processes from the pop up menu in the upper right corner of the window
4) Under the Process Name column, look for the name of the app and click to select it; common app names include: MacDefender, MacSecurity or MacProtector
5) Click the Quit Process button in the upper left corner of the window and select Quit
6) Quit Activity Monitor application
7) Open the Applications folder
8) Locate the app ex. MacDefender, MacSecurity, MacProtector or other name
9) Drag to Trash, and empty Trash

No where in that fix (if you were infected) did I see anything about having to go download adaware, malwarebytes, ccleaner, avast, avg, or anything else. There was no third party software required. To me, the above is one heck of an easy fix for malware. Something anyone can do. However, not everyone can go into regedit on the PC and determine which registery entry needs to be removed.

That, again, is my point, from my standpoint, as a user, it's more intuitive to use on a daily basis. My parents, in their 70's aren't going to know how to download and run registry cleaners, and all the other software on download.com to get their system working. However, they can easily do the 9 steps above and be done.

When the virus' plaque happens, we'll talk about it. For now, it's just not there. It's laughable that people argue this case because there "may" be something coming. When you compare whats currently out there on the PC and what's currently out there on the Mac, there is zero evidence to suggest that your chances of getting malware or a virus is greater than on the PC. Not today, not yesterday, and not tomorrow. 5 years from now? Probably not either. Again, if I have to pick one that's got 5 known issues or one that's got 1,000,000 known issues, I know which one I'll pick.

[Greg Peterson]

A local recording studio that uses a Mac has had to replace the audio card on their Mac five times. This machine is six years old and the audio card dies in less than a year.

Another studio that runs a mobile recording unit moved from their Mac laptop to a PC laptop and has not looked back.

Mac's offer a great alternative to the PC. However, any perceived difference between the two platforms is vastly overstated.

As for the Mac just getting infected with 'just malware', most people would consider giving their credit card number to the Russian mafia a major problem.

[Scott Shepherd]

As for the Mac just getting infected with 'just malware', most people would consider giving their credit card number to the Russian mafia a major problem.

If that was the case, then they would have stopped using PC's years ago :p

[Greg Peterson]

This is true, Scott. But anyone that thinks they are fundamentally insulated from these threats simply because they have an Apple OS is in for a rude awakening.

It simply comes down to which environment best provides the services and solutions the user requires. Buying a PC because more apps are available should not be the main selling point if your needs are simple, such as browsing and consumer grade multi-media. Buying a Mac because they never crash, fail or get infected is an equally uninformed decision.

As Apple continues to grow their footprint, so to will grow their attack surface.

I imagine smart phones will become the next thing.

[Scott Shepherd]

Buying a Mac because they never crash, fail or get infected is an equally uninformed decision.

If you read my initial post, I said my Mac has crashed several times, and it's locked up several times. I think my assessment was honest from my experience as a normal user, not a power user kinda guy.

No need to wait for the smartphone virus, it's already here and hitting android phones. So much so that google is tightening their control over it.

As I said, for me, it's not about anything big. It's about the small stuff. The small details, the small ways things work together. The small ways like I mentioned earlier. Not having to open the control panel and then "add/remove programs" and then wait for that to populate and then click on it, uninstall it, then reboot versus drag the file to the trash can and it's over. Doesn't seem like much, but when you fill you day with 100's of those little things, it makes for a nicer user experience for ME. Maybe not for you, but for me, it does. I'm not suggesting anyone buy or don't buy a mac, i've just giving my user experience and they can read or ignore it,as they see fit.

I think my 30 years of using PC's earned me the right to have an opinion about it.

[Phil Thien]

Yes Phil, and here's the article to support it's not a big deal....

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4650

I just don't agree it is not a big deal. Within weeks, this thing has morphed from something that required a password to install, to something that doesn't require a password. You have nine steps for removing this last incarnation. What happens on the next one? Will people be able to remove it?

My point is, for 99% of the people I know buying Mac, it is all about not getting any malware. Period. Windows is plenty intuitive. They like the software they have. They're comfortable with Windows. They are almost literally running to Mac because of malware.


Now, read that article carefully. I suggest many people do. Actually read it and the steps. First and foremost, the OS update is resolving this issue, so it'll be a non starter in conversation as of Friday, until something new comes out. I think it's excellent that a major malware comes out and it's almost immediate addressed as the OS level.

Sorry, I consider that reactive. No better, maybe worse, than many of the security updates that have occurred for Windows.

BTW, there is ALREADY a new version of Mac Defender:

http://www.securemac.com/

Now it has morphed into "Mac Guard."


Now, let's go through the article for removal, just in case you did get it.

If it's not installed :


1) Go into the Downloads folder or your preferred download location.
2) Drag the installer to the Trash.
3) Empty the Trash.

If you did get it installed

1) Move or close the Scan Window
2) Go to the Utilities folder in the Applications folder and launch Activity Monitor
3) Choose All Processes from the pop up menu in the upper right corner of the window
4) Under the Process Name column, look for the name of the app and click to select it; common app names include: MacDefender, MacSecurity or MacProtector
5) Click the Quit Process button in the upper left corner of the window and select Quit
6) Quit Activity Monitor application
7) Open the Applications folder
8) Locate the app ex. MacDefender, MacSecurity, MacProtector or other name
9) Drag to Trash, and empty Trash

No where in that fix (if you were infected) did I see anything about having to go download adaware, malwarebytes, ccleaner, avast, avg, or anything else. There was no third party software required. To me, the above is one heck of an easy fix for malware. Something anyone can do. However, not everyone can go into regedit on the PC and determine which registery entry needs to be removed.

That is how it started on Windows, too. Over time, the fake antivirus products became more sophisticated and more difficult to remove. The progression will be the same for Apple, I promise you.


That, again, is my point, from my standpoint, as a user, it's more intuitive to use on a daily basis. My parents, in their 70's aren't going to know how to download and run registry cleaners, and all the other software on download.com to get their system working. However, they can easily do the 9 steps above and be done.

When the virus' plaque happens, we'll talk about it. For now, it's just not there. It's laughable that people argue this case because there "may" be something coming. When you compare whats currently out there on the PC and what's currently out there on the Mac, there is zero evidence to suggest that your chances of getting malware or a virus is greater than on the PC. Not today, not yesterday, and not tomorrow. 5 years from now? Probably not either. Again, if I have to pick one that's got 5 known issues or one that's got 1,000,000 known issues, I know which one I'll pick.

I could not disagree more. I'm not saying something "may" be coming. It has started. It isn't a matter of whether it is coming, it is here. It will build until it gets as bad for Mac as it is for Windows. And it will happen faster than you think.

[John Coloccia]

I've been hearing about the pending Linux/Mac virus plague for years. When my Mac and Linux machines start giving me as much trouble as my PC's used to, I'll consider switching back. Until then, I see no reason whatsoever to even consider any arguments to the contrary as they have all been proven wrong time after time and year after year. It's just a bunch of PC apologists attempting to make their platform look better by making other platforms look worse. A better approach would be for Windows to stop with the bloody updates and spend a good 10 years perfecting their flagship product, much as they had done with Windows NT.

Mac and Linux are secure NOT because of lack of interest (although that is part of it). They are secure because the underlying OS is extremely well understood after 40 years of experience. Windows is NOT well understood by anyone. It is far too complicated, and there are far too many hooks into the guts. Unix based operating systems are relatively lightweight and consequently are far easier to protect from serious attacks.

When I'm developing on a Unix like system, I spend much of my time simply writing code and getting my job done. Even GUI interaction is quite disconnected from the OS itself. On a Windows system, I spend much of my time playing with Windows APIs. Windows is like the IRS. It's involved in everything you do. Every interaction is one more opportunity for me to exploit a flaw. As a developer, it's far easier to design for Windows than it is to design for any other system, but as a malicious hacker, it's low hanging fruit.

The only effective way I had for locking down my development PC at work was to simply NOT use it to ever ever ever read e-mail or do any web surfing other than what I strictly had to do to download various patches and things of that nature. Even so, I would occasionally type something in wrong and cause problems for myself. To date, I have had exactly ZERO problems with any Mac, Linux or Unix platform I have ever used, without ANY special rules or maintenance in spite of the constant doomsday predictions. It may happen, but I don't think it really will ever happen...at least not for a very long time.

re: Malware
Yes, there will always be Trojans. The difference is that they don't embed themselves so deeply into the OS that they're practically impossible to remove by ordinary means. Mac antivirus steps degenerate into "drag the file into the trash". I routinely see PC's trashed to the point that it's easier to simply rebuild them than to try and fix them. The usual retort is "well, if the user would just do this or that, then they wouldn't have a problem". My usual answer is that I don't expect my vehicle to require maintenance every time it rains or every time a pebble gets stuck in the tire. It should be designed to handle the common, everyday dangers of being a vehicle. Operating systems should be designed to handle the common, everyday dangers of being an OS. Adware, Malware and other malicious software is common, everyday stuff and should require no special effort on the part of the user to keep from being crippled.

All that said, I wouldn't switch from one platform to another just based on this one issue. I had other reasons to dump the PC platform, some technical and some just out of curiosity. I can think of many advantages to the PC platform, especially as it concerns businesses. As a business, I can afford an IT guy who's sole job it is to secure my entire infrastructure and lock things down to the point that nothing gets in or out that shouldn't.

[Phil Thien]

I've been hearing about the pending Linux/Mac virus plague for years. When my Mac and Linux machines start giving me as much trouble as my PC's used to, I'll consider switching back. Until then, I see no reason whatsoever to even consider any arguments to the contrary as they have all been proven wrong time after time and year after year.

Again, this is no longer a matter of if or when. It HAS started. People have been infected, on a Mac, with as many as six variants (so far) of a fake anti-virus scam. At first, a password was required. Newer versions no longer require a password.


It's just a bunch of PC apologists attempting to make their platform look better by making other platforms look worse. A better approach would be for Windows to stop with the bloody updates and spend a good 10 years perfecting their flagship product, much as they had done with Windows NT.

I probably own more Macs than most people (I have four, I use two daily). I also use two PC's daily.


Mac and Linux are secure NOT because of lack of interest (although that is part of it). They are secure because the underlying OS is extremely well understood after 40 years of experience.

Malware typically attacks via application vulnerabilities (browser or PDF viewer, for example).


Windows is NOT well understood by anyone. It is far too complicated, and there are far too many hooks into the guts. Unix based operating systems are relatively lightweight and consequently are far easier to protect from serious attacks.

Being well understood is a double-edge sword.

Also, this:
http://misterreiner.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/mac-os-x-versus-windows-security/


When I'm developing on a Unix like system, I spend much of my time simply writing code and getting my job done. Even GUI interaction is quite disconnected from the OS itself. On a Windows system, I spend much of my time playing with Windows APIs. Windows is like the IRS. It's involved in everything you do. Every interaction is one more opportunity for me to exploit a flaw. As a developer, it's far easier to design for Windows than it is to design for any other system, but as a malicious hacker, it's low hanging fruit.

I'm not sure if you're saying it is easier to develop for Windows or *ix systems. Coding for Windows is certainly easier (and more portable) if you need GUI. But most of my stuff is command-line, so it is moot.


The only effective way I had for locking down my development PC at work was to simply NOT use it to ever ever ever read e-mail or do any web surfing other than what I strictly had to do to download various patches and things of that nature. Even so, I would occasionally type something in wrong and cause problems for myself. To date, I have had exactly ZERO problems with any Mac, Linux or Unix platform I have ever used, without ANY special rules or maintenance in spite of the constant doomsday predictions. It may happen, but I don't think it really will ever happen...at least not for a very long time.

Well, Apple didn't write that bulletin for their site because it isn't happening.


re: Malware
Yes, there will always be Trojans. The difference is that they don't embed themselves so deeply into the OS that they're practically impossible to remove by ordinary means. Mac antivirus steps degenerate into "drag the file into the trash". I routinely see PC's trashed to the point that it's easier to simply rebuild them than to try and fix them. The usual retort is "well, if the user would just do this or that, then they wouldn't have a problem". My usual answer is that I don't expect my vehicle to require maintenance every time it rains or every time a pebble gets stuck in the tire. It should be designed to handle the common, everyday dangers of being a vehicle. Operating systems should be designed to handle the common, everyday dangers of being an OS. Adware, Malware and other malicious software is common, everyday stuff and should require no special effort on the part of the user to keep from being crippled.

Most people are unaware of the security vulnerabilities in OS X because they haven't been exploited. Once they start getting exploited, users will become far more familiar with them.


All that said, I wouldn't switch from one platform to another just based on this one issue. I had other reasons to dump the PC platform, some technical and some just out of curiosity. I can think of many advantages to the PC platform, especially as it concerns businesses. As a business, I can afford an IT guy who's sole job it is to secure my entire infrastructure and lock things down to the point that nothing gets in or out that shouldn't.

I'm not advocating anyone switch. I use two Macs daily. And two PC's daily. I'm not switching.

My entire point here is that Mac users are no longer safe from the fake anti-virus crap that has been plaguing the PC for years now. The first crop have arrived. More are on the way.

I might even be adding a new Mac soon, as I have acquired a new (used) video camera that is HD, and I'd like a little more muscle for editing video.

But I will do so with my eyes wide open, knowing that these types of viruses may become more of a nuisance over time.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'm not saying something "may" be coming. It has started. It isn't a matter of whether it is coming, it is here. It will build until it gets as bad for Mac as it is for Windows. And it will happen faster than you think.

So if I understand the logic right, if you have a boat with 100 holes in it and you have to spend your time bailing water out day after day, or, you could get a new boat with 1 hole in it, you'd keep the one with the 100 holes in it because the one with 1 hole will be getting more holes some time in the future, maybe?

I'll take the boat with 1 hole and worry about the other holes when they come to light. If you're really worried about MacDefender or MacGuard, run an anti-virus program on the Mac. They are readily available.

And you're assuming that all these issues are happening on the admin account. If the users aren't admin status, none of them are getting through.

[Larry Frank]

This is another lightning rod topic and one that there is no clear answer.

If it were me, I would base it on how I use the computer and how I need to work with other people around me using computers. In my workplace, everyone is using a PC and not Macs. The industrial hardware in the plant is set up to interface with a PC and the cost structure for the PC is lower.

I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with a Mac but it just does not fit my needs.

One other comment - I am very careful with my computer and avoid activities that would allow a virus or malware and I run frequent backups. I think that many people end up with problems on their systems because of what they download, sites they visit, emails that they open, etc. If you open the door, they will come in and you will have problems.

[Phil Thien]

So if I understand the logic right, if you have a boat with 100 holes in it and you have to spend your time bailing water out day after day, or, you could get a new boat with 1 hole in it, you'd keep the one with the 100 holes in it because the one with 1 hole will be getting more holes some time in the future, maybe?

I'll take the boat with 1 hole and worry about the other holes when they come to light. If you're really worried about MacDefender or MacGuard, run an anti-virus program on the Mac. They are readily available.

And you're assuming that all these issues are happening on the admin account. If the users aren't admin status, none of them are getting through.

Implying things like the PC has 100 security holes and the Mac has one just isn't true. The Mac likely has MORE security holes than the PC. They just haven't been exploited until now. They are beginning to get exploited.

In terms of the admin account, again, that is unfortunately not true. From my link above:

Before we dive into the details, let me make a brief comment here about “arbitrary code execution.” Arbitrary code execution is a euphemism for a successful buffer overflow.If you’re interested in learning more about buffer overflows, there is a decent write-up on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_overflow). The outcome of a successful buffer overflow, is that a hacker gains control of the execution thread and can perform any number of actions, which may or may not include performing actions as the system’s administrator. With administrator privileges, a hacker may be able to install a Trojan. Even without administrator privileges, arbitrary code still executes with the user’s privileges, which provides more than enough opportunity to ruin someone’s day.

[Paul Ryan]

I will throw my .02 in. I have always owned PCs and don't plane on changing any time soon. I have very strong feelings against apple for a varity of reasons. I dont own an apple device or use any of there software. As a PC user I don't pay for virus protectors and dont regularly check for malware. In the 18 years I have owned my own computers I have only once been infected with a virus. That was due to friend surfing clothing optional web sites. I really think for the vast majority of users the malware/virus debate is blown way out of proportion. As I have always told my parents don't download anything you dont know about. And when ever you install anything make sure you read what is being installed. It is really common sense. And the web based e-mail providers like google and hotmail do very good job of catching virus' now days. If you get an email from someone you dont know or arent expecting dont open it. IMHO if you are a responsible internet user there is no reason to spend double on a mac when a PC will do everything the mac will and will last just as long. Buying PC's I can upgrade to the latest and greatest hardware in a couple of years and still have spent less money than the mac would have cost me initially.

[Phil Thien]

I really think for the vast majority of users the malware/virus debate is blown way out of proportion. As I have always told my parents don't download anything you dont know about. And when ever you install anything make sure you read what is being installed. It is really common sense. And the web based e-mail providers like google and hotmail do very good job of catching virus' now days.

75%+ of the infections we see hit people doing something as innocent as a Google search.

It has become a very common occurrence, IMHO. And I don't think it can be explained by risky behavior.

[Greg Peterson]

And when ever you install anything make sure you read what is being installed. It is really common sense.

A common tactic for malware and trojans is to trick users into believing they are installing an application when in fact they are installing the app they think they are getting PLUS the payload. You can read the fine print but it won't be there.

[Jim Becker]

I just made the move to an iMac myself, although I still run Windows 7 on it in a virtual machine for a few applications...such as Quicken and MS Office. The former because the Mac version "bites" and the latter because I own licenses for 6 machines for Office Home and Student. Professor Dr. SWMBO is also considering moving to a Mac.

That said, Windows 7 is a very robust environment and really brought the Windows world forward in many ways. If you do choose to stay with Windows, it's a very nice operating environment.

[Bryan Morgan]

I am in the market for a computer and I am going to buy a brand new and an upper end model. My needs are as follows
1. internet access
2. word processing
3. working with family photos and videos
4. drawing plans with autocad
My biggest gripes about my 2 current PCs is that after 2 to 3 years they get slow and have virus problems. So I am considering a Mac but having only owned PCs I am still skeptical as far as the price v. quality.
Thoughts, advice, experiences, I am all ears.

Look at this thread... see what I told you would happen with a question like that? Nerd rage! :D

[Greg Peterson]

I'll see your Nerd rage and raise you one SawStop!

[Brian Ashton]

Been reading this one and it seems to have gotten way off track to what the OP wants to know...

For me it's really simple. I have PC needs (No matter how much better anyone thinks a Mac is the world runs on PCs and most of the good software is only available to them) and I have Mac needs (they are better and far more risk free for average everyday surfing the net, time machine backup program is second to none, I have other apple hardware that all run and sync seamlessly...) so I bought a Macbook and loaded VMware Fusion on it so I could run any version of windows I wanted (presently WinXP and Win7), or the penguin for that matter and switch on the fly between them... That way I get all the computer worlds in one very stylish and neat package. Can't do that on a PC. Also the quality is better. Apple is in control of everything therefore there are very few teething pains. You don't have to wait for the revised model to come out to iron out most of the bugs because there are thousands of independent players making all the parts that make up a PC.

Now before all those that take offence to this opinion remember it's only an opinion about an inanimate object. It's not like I was saying you have ugly children... And I am speaking in general terms - OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS.

[Phil Thien]

Update: Just as I predicted (you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see this), the Mac malware issue has continued:
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=mac+malware

MOST DISTURBING: Apple has instructed employees to act ignorant of the problem:
http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Orders+Technicians+to+Feign+Ignorance+About+ Mac+Malware/article21693.htm

Apple's solution is apparently a daily update to a malware detection system (sort of like a built-in antivirus product). Unfortunately, as we've seen on PC's, that is a reactive response. Even top-notch heuristic analysis hasn't stopped outbreaks of new variants on Windows machines.

NONETHELESS, UPDATE THOSE MAC's. Check for updates every day for a while.

And you may want to point your DNS at OpenDNS, which tries to blacklist servers that have delivered malicious code in the past.

Here are instructions for configuring a Mac for the OpenDNS "Family Shield" service:
https://store.opendns.com/familyshield/setup/computer

Tell family/friends that have a Mac of the issue, so they can get the updates, etc., too. Pretending this isn't happening will make the problem 10x worse.

[Scott Shepherd]

Phil, you really seem to have an axe to grind on this.

First, the fix for it has been issued by Apple today, so if you update your OS today, then it will resolve the issue if you have it (which most people don't). It was well documented that apple people were not giving help with it because it doesn't fall under the scope of what they are instructed to answer on tech support lines.

Tell you what- call Microsoft and ask their tech support to help with a virus or malware. Let me know what you get. I can answer that for you. Nothing. They have no OS updates or software that removes it. You have to buy aftermarket products or download free programs online to remove and protect yourself on their systems.

How you seem to keep implying that's a better system is beyond me.

No one's said apple is perfect in this thread. There are issues with all systems, but to date, this is ONE piece of malware that's out there, impacting far less than 1% of users, and you keep elevating it like it's the same threat level as any PC counterpart. It's simply not true.

You should always keep your OS up to date, period. If you do that, you are still VERY safe. Can you get into an issue. Probably. But there's a huge difference between possible and probable. As a mac user, is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

[John Coloccia]

Update: Just as I predicted (you don't need to be a rocket scientist to see this), the Mac malware issue has continued:
http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=mac+malware

MOST DISTURBING: Apple has instructed employees to act ignorant of the problem:
http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Orders+Technicians+to+Feign+Ignorance+About+ Mac+Malware/article21693.htm



With all due respect, Phil, you're talking about one piece of Malware vs the thousands upon thousands of known PC exploits in the wild. This is sounding very Chicken Little-ish.

You've completely misrepresented the second article. The memo instructs the technicians not to confirm or deny that the Malware is installed on a particular machine, and that they shouldn't attempt to provide any further assistance. I don't know of any company on the planet that will sit there and remove viruses from your computer other than as a service from a place like Best Buy, and you will pay for it. What the memo does not say ANYWHERE is to act ignorant of the problem. That's just a complete fabrication.

[Neal Clayton]

the default windows install has security flaws
the default mac install has security flaws
the default linux install from the vast majority of distros has security flaws
even the default FreeBSD install has a couple

from someone who did this for a living for 7 years (web servers), you don't need to worry about the security flaws of the OS on a home pc, because guess what, they all have them.

the only difference in a mac and a PC is the price and the OS, the hardware is the same. the only reason to buy a mac is if you like the OS. if you are a windows user, you probably won't like the mac OS, simply because it's different. if you tend to fix things on your home computer on your own you will most definitely not like the mac OS, since documentation is very lacking.

if you're the type of person who suggests someone install linux for a solution to how to resize an image, you need to stop typing and go outside.
if you're the type of person who suggests someone buy a mac as a solution to how to turn a home video into a DVD, you also need to stop typing and go outside.

that pretty much sums up the OS debates.

fwiw i have two windows machines and a BSD file server at home, and a BSD colo for hosting a few remaining websites for friends.

as for linux having decades of secure reliability, wake me when distros stop leaving /tmp executable by default and having their port put the mysql socket in it. the only reason linux was 'secure' all of those years is because it didn't do anything useful, why write exploits for an OS that doesn't work and no one uses? now that it does do things, it has as many flaws to deal with as other server OSs do, the individual maintainers are just better at admitting to them.

[Phil Thien]

Phil, you really seem to have an axe to grind on this.

I'm just posting links to articles. No axe.


First, the fix for it has been issued by Apple today, so if you update your OS today, then it will resolve the issue if you have it (which most people don't). It was well documented that apple people were not giving help with it because it doesn't fall under the scope of what they are instructed to answer on tech support lines.

It doesn't work like that. The genie is out of the bottle, unfortunately. The source code will likely go through rapid iterations in order to side-step the Apple code designed to intercept it. The guys writing/releasing the garbage have fully updated Macs to test against, I guarantee you.


Tell you what- call Microsoft and ask their tech support to help with a virus or malware. Let me know what you get. I can answer that for you. Nothing. They have no OS updates or software that removes it. You have to buy aftermarket products or download free programs online to remove and protect yourself on their systems.

I don't disagree. Microsoft has not done enough to combat malware. I think they could do much more.


How you seem to keep implying that's a better system is beyond me.

NO, not implying MS is superior. There are many things I do for which I think the Mac is better suited.


No one's said apple is perfect in this thread. There are issues with all systems, but to date, this is ONE piece of malware that's out there, impacting far less than 1% of users, and you keep elevating it like it's the same threat level as any PC counterpart. It's simply not true.

You keep saying "one piece of malware." That is misleading. It has forked at lest five or six times. It has been seen with several different names, and several different behaviors.


You should always keep your OS up to date, period. If you do that, you are still VERY safe. Can you get into an issue. Probably. But there's a huge difference between possible and probable. As a mac user, is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

Eight weeks ago, it wasn't possible. There was nothing out there. Now it is possible. Probable? I don't think you can say "no" to that.

[Phil Thien]

With all due respect, Phil, you're talking about one piece of Malware vs the thousands upon thousands of known PC exploits in the wild. This is sounding very Chicken Little-ish.

You've completely misrepresented the second article. The memo instructs the technicians not to confirm or deny that the Malware is installed on a particular machine, and that they shouldn't attempt to provide any further assistance. I don't know of any company on the planet that will sit there and remove viruses from your computer other than as a service from a place like Best Buy, and you will pay for it. What the memo does not say ANYWHERE is to act ignorant of the problem. That's just a complete fabrication.

Quote from the article:


Jobs and company hope to keep customers ignorant of the truth


Apple, Inc. (AAPL (http://quotes.nasdaq.com/asp/SummaryQuote.asp?symbol=AAPL&selected=AAPL)) long had the good fortune (from a certain perspective) of not being very popular with consumers and thus gaining security (http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Orders+Technicians+to+Feign+Ignorance+About+ Mac+Malware/article21693.htm#) through obscurity. With millions of Macs in the wild and Apple sitting pretty in fourth place in PC sales (http://www.dailytech.com/Intel+Desperate+to+Keep+ARM+Off+of+MacBooks/article21676.htm), though, the company is seeing an increasing number of malware attacks.


I. The Customers Want the Truth? They Can't HANDLE the Truth!


In response to these attacks Apple has reportedly implemented a policy which is equal measures bizarre and baffling -- it's telling technicians to adopt a "don't ask don't tell" policy with regards to customers complaints about malware (http://www.dailytech.com/Apple+Orders+Technicians+to+Feign+Ignorance+About+ Mac+Malware/article21693.htm#), feigning ignorance on the topic.



You may feel that the article doesn't accurately reflect the nature of the memo (I would strongly disagree with you). But please read the article again, I think I've accurately described the article in my link. I don't feel like I have fabricated anything.

[Darius Ferlas]

the only reason linux was 'secure' all of those years is because it didn't do anything useful, why write exploits for an OS that doesn't work and no one uses?
That's a rather incorrect generalization.
This site runs on Linux, CentOS. So does over 60% of the Internet worldwide using various Linux distros. Probably close to 100% google servers too. I'd say Linux is VERY useful. Even Microsoft realized that when their servers were hiding behind Linux servers around 2001/2002.

There are no 100% secure systems and most people associate computer security with a product. But security is not a product. It's a process and it's never complete.

[Neal Clayton]

That's a rather incorrect generalization.
This site runs on Linux, CentOS. So does over 60% of the Internet worldwide using various Linux distros. Probably close to 100% google servers too. I'd say Linux is VERY useful. Even Microsoft realized that when their servers were hiding behind Linux servers around 2001/2002.

There are no 100% secure systems and most people associate computer security with a product. But security is not a product. It's a process and it's never complete.

i would argue that the above has a lot more to do with the fact that those people are getting red hat binaries for free than it does with an endorsement of linux. the reason that centos took off so fast was because there were ZERO remotely maintainable linux distros before it, and all of their cpanel type goodies were rpm based when they got hung out to dry by fedora.

remotely maintainable being defined as you can, within the port/package management system they give you, maintain an installation indefinitely without having to bring the entire system down to upgrade the base OS.

and if other red hat projects are any indication (fedora, mandrake), centos too will someday disappear into obscurity, and then where will those people be? looking at another migration to another distro, that's where.

centos is an endorsement of red hat without the endorsement price, not an endorsement of linux. and when red hat shareholders get tired of being situated squarely at the bottom of the list of publicly traded software providers in earnings per share, cutting off centos to force people back into RHEL licenses is the easiest solution to that problem.

take away that red hat safety net and linux leaves just as bad a taste as windows does, it just takes a few years of distro stagnation for the bad taste to set in.

[Phil Thien]

The Apple patch to rid oneself of Mac Defender has already been side-stepped:

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/06/01/mac_defender_variant_quickly_thwarts_apples_mac_os _x_security_update.html

I'm going to quit posting this stuff. Just remember:

(1) Mac is no longer a safe harbor insofar as malware is concerned.
(2) Keep your Mac updated.
(3) Be very careful googling. That is where the vast majority of this stuff comes from. If you google for pictures of the royal wedding, you are going to expose yourself to risk.
(4) Watch out for links on Facebook and other sites where users can post links. If they sound sensationalistic, they may be a payload.
(5) Configure your machine to use OpenDNS for added protection.

[John Coloccia]

You may feel that the article doesn't accurately reflect the nature of the memo (I would strongly disagree with you). But please read the article again, I think I've accurately described the article in my link. I don't feel like I have fabricated anything.

I meant that the article fabricated it, not you. You're right, though. You didn't misrepresent the article and sorry I accused you of that.

I don't agree at all with their conclusions, especially since Apple has acknowledged the problem and has posted instructions for removal on their support site:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4650

BTW, in case you didn't hear, a new Mac Defender variant is out that defeats the new OS fix. LOL. Tenacious little bugger.

edit: just read your last post so you did hear :)

[Brian Ashton]

I think I'll forward this thread to the writers of the big bang theory as something to inspire their script writing...

[Darius Ferlas]

i would argue that the above has a lot more to do with the fact that those people are getting red hat binaries for free than it does with an endorsement of linux. the reason that centos took off so fast was because there were ZERO remotely maintainable linux distros before it, and all of their cpanel type goodies were rpm based when they got hung out to dry by fedora.

remotely maintainable being defined as you can, within the port/package management system they give you, maintain an installation indefinitely without having to bring the entire system down to upgrade the base OS.

and if other red hat projects are any indication (fedora, mandrake), centos too will someday disappear into obscurity, and then where will those people be? looking at another migration to another distro, that's where.

centos is an endorsement of red hat without the endorsement price, not an endorsement of linux. and when red hat shareholders get tired of being situated squarely at the bottom of the list of publicly traded software providers in earnings per share, cutting off centos to force people back into RHEL licenses is the easiest solution to that problem.

take away that red hat safety net and linux leaves just as bad a taste as windows does, it just takes a few years of distro stagnation for the bad taste to set in.
That is politics with a doze future seen through a crystal ball. I don't have one so I'll have o believe you.

When it comes to licensing you presented less than full picture of OpenSource terms. RedHat does not own Linux and whatever modifications it introduces to the kernel they are free for the asking whether the shareholders like it or not. No ifs, ands and buts.

In fact RedHat found itself in trouble a few times over patent infringements, so other distros are not as eager to just lift RH's code as it may seem since RH clearly cannot handle everything by itself. Others lift from RH whatever is O/S and whatever makes sense but it's not like RH does it all and others just copy the code and change the branding. Some examples are Debian, Ubuntu or even Google's own heavily customized Linux (chrome OS), based on .... not RedHat, but Debian - a completely free and 100% non-commercial distribution.

Linux is developed worldwide, and RH lift code too.

[Neal Clayton]

red hat has to release source, they do not have to give binaries away for free. when their shareholders get tired of losing money, they will cut centos off or make the upgrade path untenable.

i still have one server running linux (slackware), and only because i don't have physical access to it, honestly, or it would be migrated to BSD as well.

the idea of linux is fine, but the implementation is just terrible. it's a never-ending broken cycle. the code from the maintainers of the individual projects generally doesn't work. the distros fix it and release a finished product, but the distros eventually get fed up with that arrangement (since they're working for free) and die off, leaving the users swinging in the breeze. and you can't really blame the distros because the maintainers of the individual projects left them swinging in the breeze. even if that doesn't happen, the binaries that all distros but red hat release eventually just won't work without upgrading the base OS. the only distro last time i looked that had a port system that built from source was gentoo, and it's obviously not feasible for remote server use due to installation/ugprade issues either.

so really, in summary, linux isn't a viable server OS. red hat's distros are, as long as they keep maintaining them, but after all this time linux is really still just a kernel and some associated projects that release code that doesn't work. as long as the kernel is independent from the distros, imo, that situation will remain.

[John McClanahan]

I find it interesting how much time and effort some people will put into staying up to the minute, up to date on a product or brand that they seem to hate. :confused:

John

[Bryan Morgan]

I find it interesting how much time and effort some people will put into staying up to the minute, up to date on a product or brand that they seem to hate. :confused:

John

Just because we hate something doesn't mean we can ignore it in the workplace. I'm paid to build servers and networks and everything that goes with it. Management says we use Windows, Macs, Unix, etc and thats what I use or work someplace else. We get to see things under the hood so have a little different viewpoint too, which may or may not apply to the practical home user. I curse everything on a daily basis. What I can say with absolute certainty is the quality of software has plummeted, pretty much across the board.

Whats fascinating is the nerd mind. We put so much research, testing, time, and effort into things that when something comes along that is contradictory we won't believe it. We've already proven it to ourselves be false (or true). Whats awesome is everybody is right and nobody is right all at the same time! :) Neal seems to swear by BSD, I don't care for it. I have 70-something Linux servers and am happy with them and haven't experienced all the stuff he claims. I don't update them unless there is a specific reason to. Who is right? In his environment, he is. In my environment, mine is. We can argue the details for hours on end and likely won't change our positions because of our individual experiences. We thrive off nerd cred so we will still argue of course. :D

[Hilel Salomon]

I have three PC's and a PC laptop. About half a year ago, I bought an IMAC. Bottom line is that as each PC bites the dust, it will be replaced by a MAC. To me it is not a question of viruses, but rather ease of use, speed and a general absence of headaches, failures, etc. They both use INTEL processors, but Apple has retained its innovative edge IMO. I use photoshop and picasa on my pc's and Iphoto and picasa on my IMAC. Also, if you use an IPAD, Iphone or IPod, Mac makes it easy to add apps to these.
Hilel

[Greg Peterson]

Over the years Apple has been far more innovative than MS. Not even close. Whereas MS was stunningly brilliant at generating revenue and developing an army of desktops, Apple shot themselves in the foot so many times it is a wonder they survived.

Apple has been on a roll for a fair number of years now. If they have learned their lessons, MS will need to start innovating rather than buying up the technologies. Windows 8 is a radical departure from both the Windows world and Apple OS X.

IMO, Windows 8 will be a make or break release for MS as far as OS market place is concerned.

[Jim Koepke]

IMO, Windows 8 will be a make or break release for MS as far as OS market place is concerned.

I would think Apple hopes this is not so. After all is said and done, if MS goes down, Apple may become a target of monopoly busters.

On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be as much interest in that than there was years ago.

jtk

[Greg Peterson]

MS did a little more than brush up against the monopoly line. While Apple is a closed ecosystem, they are far from trying to control the market in the same way MS did.

And in the end, the more players in the OS and software market, the greater the advantages to the consumer.

Edit -

Here we go again.

"Microsoft has reportedly asked a handful of chip makers to each work with just a single computer maker apiece if they want to be in tablets running the software giant's next version of Windows." (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2386345,00.asp)

Perhaps MS should just get in the hardware business and produce their own product from start to finish like Apple.

[Brian Ashton]

So, Paul

After all that do you even want a computer anymore. :D

[Scott Shepherd]

Just for the record, here's a video of what it takes to get the malware on a mac. I'd say that's a LONG way from being a huge threat....

That's a lot of steps to "okay" before it installs it.

Note- normally any software install requires the password for the user to be entered. This one does not, so it's the "most dangerous version" of the malware that's being reported. Also note, Apple has already fixed this in the latest OS update. It handles the one that requires the password and the one that doesn't, so if your OS is up to date, there is no issue with this variant at this time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=WoogO_f6DLI

[Eric Nordby]

Loaded question as I'm sure by now you're aware. I started with macs when they first came out. Ran a computer lab for three years during which the macs were constantly used at ratio of roughly 30:1, odd when you consider we had 15 pc's and three macs. Not odd if you consider they never broke down or malfunctioned. I switched to pc's for 15 years during which time I purchased a new computer every two to three years based on my frustration level. Three years ago i purchased a mac. To date: It has never crashed. It has never not worked. It has never lost a single file. It has never cost me more than 15 minutes to install new hardware and the new hardware has never not worked seamlessly with every other program on my computer.
I turn it on and use it. I often leave 6 or ten programs running in the background but have never noticed a slowdown. I have rebooted it when updates are installed but have yet to spend one minute of time wondering whether it would work, wondering how long the start-up would take.
So, yeah, I'm a mac user; user being the point. Best of luck, hope you find what you're looking for. Respectfully, Eric

[Phil Thien]

Just for the record, here's a video of what it takes to get the malware on a mac. I'd say that's a LONG way from being a huge threat....


It is pretty typical of much of what is out there for Windows.

My daughter ran into it yesterday on her Mac.

She was able to force-quit the browser. That is pretty much your only option to get it off the screen. There is no "cancel" or "close" option. Just an "ok."

Many Mac users (and Windows users) don't understand what is going on, and when confronted with a menu that has only one option, will continue to click on that option. Yes, this is low-hanging fruit (relying on the clueless user for mouse clicks), but it worked surprisingly well.

The problem is, there is a code base now. The people responsible for this crap will continue forking/evolving it. Adding code to take advantage of a security vulnerability isn't that difficult.

That has been my experience on Windows, I suspect the Mac will be the same.

It will probably quiet down for a few weeks, and then hit again around the 4th of July. I've noticed major Windows malware attacks centered around holidays. Makes sense, really, as the people that fix this sort of crap like to take time off, too. So a good time to strike. I suspect we will see something new around the 4th of July.

[Bryan Morgan]

To date: It has never crashed.


Never? Ever? Not one single time? We have a number of Macs as I stated, and when they do get used they crash just as much as the Windows machines. They don't crash doing simple tasks but its almost guaranteed to crash when you use any of the Adobe CS stuff or Quark...

[Greg Peterson]

Yeah? Reminds of the movie "The Invention of Lying". A world where lying has never occurred to anyone. But once it is discovered by one man, he has an absolute field day(s).

The IMac at work got this and I had to do a double take. The average Mac usser has never had to deal with a virus or malware, so they represent a target rich environment. In short, they are clueless. Just as in a world where lying doesn't exist, up until now the thought of a virus on a Mac was equally unimaginable by the average Mac user.

[Zach England]

I like Macs, especially Mac laptops...I just think they are overpriced. I use Windows and Linux and consider myself an advanced user (I work in IT), so I can fix any problem I may encounter in my vocational and day-to-day computing. For my money I would have a hard time justifying the pricetag on Mac hardware, but for a lot of people I think it is an decent choice.

[Neal Clayton]

i actually give apple some credit for the attempt to put a pretty UI over a unix OS, something that the free *nixes have failed to do for years, but unfortunately from my experience apple hasn't done that well with it either. "never crashed" is dubious at best...

[Brian Ashton]

I was in an apple shop the other day waiting to get my macbook back... it was the first time I'd seen all the mac products all lined up beside each other. There is a quite the theme going on there. You've got the ipod touch which is a scaled down iphone, which is a mini ipad, which is a keyboardless macbook air, which is a miniture macbook pro... Kinda think they've reached a need to branch off.

[Bryan Morgan]

i actually give apple some credit for the attempt to put a pretty UI over a unix OS, something that the free *nixes have failed to do for years, but unfortunately from my experience apple hasn't done that well with it either. "never crashed" is dubious at best...

What the? Half of everything in the Mac GUI I've seen in various Linux distros for years. One of the guys I work with loves the Linux GUIs and is always showing me all these crazy interface effects and whatnot... Apple is years behind on a lot of it.

[Neal Clayton]

What the? Half of everything in the Mac GUI I've seen in various Linux distros for years. One of the guys I work with loves the Linux GUIs and is always showing me all these crazy interface effects and whatnot... Apple is years behind on a lot of it.

do distros still advertise X as network capable despite not having the bandwidth even now on most networks to support it with modern desktop graphics? (nevermind 20 years ago...)

it's a flawed design, it was flawed from day one. why have a client/server model when literally no one uses them separately?

they started with a stated goal of emulating Windows, but without simple standards for oh...i dunno....inconsequential things like....what the mouse buttons do. then they went back and tried to reverse engineer a set of standards based on what a few X apps that popped up were doing.

and how many distros have stopped shipping gnome entirely? i know slackware did. i'd be surprised if others haven't done so since then, that was a few years ago. fun fact: it is impossible to compile gnome and all of its dependencies from scratch without fixing bugs yourself. there are dependency loops and broken components galore. they have always been broken, the distros have been carrying them for years. why? because KDE was built on a set of libraries that were not free, and only in the past year have been LGPL permissible (so that you could write non GPL software with KDE's libs).

so gnome took KDE's license restrictions as an excuse to not fix much for over a decade. and KDE took gnome's broken'ness as an excuse to continue to not allow use of the QT libs in non GPL software until 2010.

it's like two schoolyard bullies arguing in reverse...

"i suck"
"no i suck, you don't suck nearly as much as me"

if there were a book written about how not to develop a GUI, it would be the history of X, KDE, and gnome. it's such a mess apple wouldn't even bother stealing it, they bought a UI from Sun to modify into Quartz.

[John Coloccia]

do distros still advertise X as network capable despite not having the bandwidth even now on most networks to support it with modern desktop graphics? (nevermind 20 years ago...)

it's a flawed design, it was flawed from day one. why have a client/server model when literally no one uses them separately?

they started with a stated goal of emulating Windows, but without simple standards for oh...i dunno....inconsequential things like....what the mouse buttons do. then they went back and tried to reverse engineer a set of standards based on what a few X apps that popped up were doing.

and how many distros have stopped shipping gnome entirely? i know slackware did. i'd be surprised if others haven't done so since then, that was a few years ago. fun fact: it is impossible to compile gnome and all of its dependencies from scratch without fixing bugs yourself. there are dependency loops and broken components galore. they have always been broken, the distros have been carrying them for years. why? because KDE was built on a set of libraries that were not free, and only in the past year have been LGPL permissible (so that you could write non GPL software with KDE's libs).

so gnome took KDE's license restrictions as an excuse to not fix much for over a decade. and KDE took gnome's broken'ness as an excuse to continue to not allow use of the QT libs in non GPL software until 2010.

it's like two schoolyard bullies arguing in reverse...

"i suck"
"no i suck, you don't suck nearly as much as me"

if there were a book written about how not to develop a GUI, it would be the history of X, KDE, and gnome. it's such a mess apple wouldn't even bother stealing it, they bought a UI from Sun to modify into Quartz.

Several years ago, I was managing/developing a software effort out in California. The servers we were developing on were in San Jose. Most of my team was in Lancaster, CA. Occasionally, we were in Wichita, KS. Another core member of the team was in Boston. We ROUTINELY (i.e. everyday, all day) used X remotely, over a VPN connection no less, with no issues whatsoever.

Not only that, but people ROUTINELY use X in this way, day in and day out. They do things like run their processor intensive software on the mega-machine in the corner, logged in from a remote terminal. Not only does it work, it works seamlessly, and has no equal in the industry. We have been doing this for DECADES and it is a perfectly normal, everyday occurrence as natural as getting your morning cup of coffee. It was designed specifically to do this back when it was common to have a mega-server doing real work, and terminals scattered about controlling the show. This is the typical use of X, not he exception. It's only now that Linux has become popular that the standalone Unix-like workstation has become the norm. In the world of engineering and science, it would be very unusual to have standalone workstations. You most typically several powerful workstations scattered about with less powerful workstations sitting on most people's desks. Again, this is typical, not the exception.

Because X is socket based, it is entirely platform independent. As long as the platform supports sockets, an XServer can be written for it and it can interact with any program on the planet that supports X. It doesn't matter if the server is a Unix machine and the client is a PC, MAC, smartphone or WHATEVER. I can access any machine in the world from any other machine in the world. More, it is common for the terminal to be running multiple applications on multiple servers, in remote locations or not. This is perfectly normal in the Unix world.

Further, X predates Windows by a couple of years, as does the Macintosh GUI. It has absolutely nothing to do with KDE or Gnome, nor does it have ANYTHING to do with what your mouse buttons do or any other behavior. In fact, the X Server knows nothing at all about what window manager you happen to be using on your end. It's no problem for one user to be logged in using KDE while another user across the world is logged in using OpenWindows, and someone else is logged in using FVWM. It makes no difference at all. It is the local window manager that defines the look and feel of the GUI, including what your mouse buttons do, not X. This is part of the design philosophy of X.

I'm also confused at the link between KDE, Qt and Gnome. KDE was based on Qt, which was not free at the time. KDE doesn't "own" Qt, and can't decide anything about it. Qt is a Nokia product (was a Trolltech product). Gnome was started because some weren't happy with KDE being based on a non-free (free as in "liberated") product. Since 2005, QT has been available under GPL licensing, making this entire issue moot. LGPL licensing just makes QT and KDE more attractive to commercial customers, but GPL fixed the major philosophical gripe that sparked the Gnome project.

[Curt Harms]

What the? Half of everything in the Mac GUI I've seen in various Linux distros for years. One of the guys I work with loves the Linux GUIs and is always showing me all these crazy interface effects and whatnot... Apple is years behind on a lot of it.

Ubuntu's current Unity has very few effects and little customization. The long time users are making torches and sharpening their pitchforks :D. Ubuntu is also working on a replacement for X called Wayland. Now if they can get Nvidia, Intel and AMD (ATI) to develop drivers........... I'm no kind of expert on this stuff but there are people that echo Neil's complaint about Gnome 2.x being a mess which is why it's being put out to pasture. I like Gnome 2.x for its simple and straightforward menu structure, way more logical to me than Windows. it must have its issues though.

[John Coloccia]

Ubuntu's current Unity has very few effects and little customization. The long time users are making torches and sharpening their pitchforks :D. Ubuntu is also working on a replacement for X called Wayland. Now if they can get Nvidia, Intel and AMD (ATI) to develop drivers........... I'm no kind of expert on this stuff but there are people that echo Neil's complaint about Gnome 2.x being a mess which is why it's being put out to pasture. I like Gnome 2.x for its simple and straightforward menu structure, way more logical to me than Windows. it must have its issues though.

Gnome 2.x is being put out to pasture because it's 10 years old and is replaced by Gnome 3.x, the active development project. 10 years is a long time to go without a major update in the computer world.

[Tim Morton]

I am in the market for a computer and I am going to buy a brand new and an upper end model. My needs are as follows
1. internet access
2. word processing
3. working with family photos and videos
4. drawing plans with autocad
My biggest gripes about my 2 current PCs is that after 2 to 3 years they get slow and have virus problems. So I am considering a Mac but having only owned PCs I am still skeptical as far as the price v. quality.
Thoughts, advice, experiences, I am all ears.

fair disclosure..i am a mac person.

Not sure how i missed this...and i am not going to read it all, because it has been beaten to death for ever...and i can predict what was said.

The answer is, if you are interested in buying a mac i think you most likely will love it, but before you do, make sure your autocad software will run on mac. That may be the deal breaker for you.

Good luck!!

[John Coloccia]

fair disclosure..i am a mac person.

Not sure how i missed this...and i am not going to read it all, because it has been beaten to death for ever...and i can predict what was said.

The answer is, if you are interested in buying a mac i think you most likely will love it, but before you do, make sure your autocad software will run on mac. That may be the deal breaker for you.

Good luck!!

You can get it native for Mac now. My guess is that they migrated to a cross platform framework like QT. Powerful stuff THAT ACTUALLY WORKS is available these days making choice of platform less relevant. This is in contrast to powerful stuff that's been available for years that worked like junk. :)

[Phil Thien]

You can get it native for Mac now. My guess is that they migrated to a cross platform framework like QT. Powerful stuff THAT ACTUALLY WORKS is available these days making choice of platform less relevant. This is in contrast to powerful stuff that's been available for years that worked like junk. :)

Yeah, but it is $4k. I wonder if they allow for a cross-platform upgrade? It still wouldn't be inexpensive.

I'm sure there have got to be other less-expensive CAD solutions that will read/write ACAD files, for the Mac, no?

[Curt Harms]

Gnome 2.x is being put out to pasture because it's 10 years old and is replaced by Gnome 3.x, the active development project. 10 years is a long time to go without a major update in the computer world.

Kinda like XP? :) I've experimented a little with Gnome 3 and Unity. IMO at this point Gnome 3 wins.

[John A. Schaefer]

Paul-
I was in the same boat as you last year. Until about 5 years ago, I was strictly a Windows user - but then I started to dabble in Linux. Over time, I got to thinking about moving to Mac, and last year I finally bought a 27" iMac (aka the Big Mac). :D

I'm not going to get into the religion/politics of Windows v. Mac - there's been enough of that in this thread already. I still use both, and each has their strength and weakness.

Before you make the final decision, do all the research that you can - just like you do before buying any other tool. As part of that research, I strongly encourage you to make an appointment and visit an Apple Retail store. Don't just stop in, but actually schedule an appointment through the Apple web site. Tell them on the form what you want to look at or talk about, and they'll have the right person available to help you in the decision making process.

(That's what I did, and there was absolutely no pressure. We just walking through the product, features, options, etc. I ended up buying a refurb from Apple's online store, and it will sit right next to my Windows and Linux PCs - as soon as I finish the desk to put them on...)

[Neal Clayton]

Several years ago, I was managing/developing a software effort out in California. The servers we were developing on were in San Jose. Most of my team was in Lancaster, CA. Occasionally, we were in Wichita, KS. Another core member of the team was in Boston. We ROUTINELY (i.e. everyday, all day) used X remotely, over a VPN connection no less, with no issues whatsoever.

Not only that, but people ROUTINELY use X in this way, day in and day out. They do things like run their processor intensive software on the mega-machine in the corner, logged in from a remote terminal. Not only does it work, it works seamlessly, and has no equal in the industry. We have been doing this for DECADES and it is a perfectly normal, everyday occurrence as natural as getting your morning cup of coffee. It was designed specifically to do this back when it was common to have a mega-server doing real work, and terminals scattered about controlling the show. This is the typical use of X, not he exception. It's only now that Linux has become popular that the standalone Unix-like workstation has become the norm. In the world of engineering and science, it would be very unusual to have standalone workstations. You most typically several powerful workstations scattered about with less powerful workstations sitting on most people's desks. Again, this is typical, not the exception.

Because X is socket based, it is entirely platform independent. As long as the platform supports sockets, an XServer can be written for it and it can interact with any program on the planet that supports X. It doesn't matter if the server is a Unix machine and the client is a PC, MAC, smartphone or WHATEVER. I can access any machine in the world from any other machine in the world. More, it is common for the terminal to be running multiple applications on multiple servers, in remote locations or not. This is perfectly normal in the Unix world.

Further, X predates Windows by a couple of years, as does the Macintosh GUI. It has absolutely nothing to do with KDE or Gnome, nor does it have ANYTHING to do with what your mouse buttons do or any other behavior. In fact, the X Server knows nothing at all about what window manager you happen to be using on your end. It's no problem for one user to be logged in using KDE while another user across the world is logged in using OpenWindows, and someone else is logged in using FVWM. It makes no difference at all. It is the local window manager that defines the look and feel of the GUI, including what your mouse buttons do, not X. This is part of the design philosophy of X.

I'm also confused at the link between KDE, Qt and Gnome. KDE was based on Qt, which was not free at the time. KDE doesn't "own" Qt, and can't decide anything about it. Qt is a Nokia product (was a Trolltech product). Gnome was started because some weren't happy with KDE being based on a non-free (free as in "liberated") product. Since 2005, QT has been available under GPL licensing, making this entire issue moot. LGPL licensing just makes QT and KDE more attractive to commercial customers, but GPL fixed the major philosophical gripe that sparked the Gnome project.

you don't need X to run terminal apps, though. yeah, i use SSH to get into my remote servers too, none of them have X, they don't need it. you can accomplish the same thing with screen and a few keystrokes.

yeah, the people who own Qt fixed the licensing issue, in 2010. linux was puttering around without a reliable, usable destkop GUI for what, 15-20 years before that?

you used X remotely, without VNC or some similar client/server? i highly doubt that. all of those VNC type programs were invented to solve the problem that existed from the get go, being that X could not function reliably as a remote client connecting to a remote server, it only did it theoretically. the absence of standards in X for their stated design left it up to the window managers to handle that stuff, and their opinions on it vary like the number of variables in a broken xorg.conf file vary.

this sums up quite well...

http://tleaves.com/2005/01/13/its-2005-x11-still-sucks/


Ubuntu's current Unity has very few effects and little customization. The long time users are making torches and sharpening their pitchforks :D. Ubuntu is also working on a replacement for X called Wayland. Now if they can get Nvidia, Intel and AMD (ATI) to develop drivers........... I'm no kind of expert on this stuff but there are people that echo Neil's complaint about Gnome 2.x being a mess which is why it's being put out to pasture. I like Gnome 2.x for its simple and straightforward menu structure, way more logical to me than Windows. it must have its issues though.

because ubuntu isn't selling politics, they're trying to sell an OS.

i really hope they succeed, but they're gonna have to drag the "i like my OS broken" zealots kicking and screaming along with them.

[Russell Hudson]

Not even close in a fight. Go Mac. They used to cost a lot more . Now, they're only a little more but twice the machine and twice as easy to use and they can now use intel base programs.

[Johnny Kleso]

NO...

MACs are not faster or more stable than PCs and cost much more than PCs
The only issue is do you have access to MAC software and are you more comfortable using a MAC than a PC

If you still want a MAC read this how to build a MAC out of PC parts
http://nofilmschool.com/build-a-hackintosh/

If you want a super PC build this one and install Win7 as it runs Adobe software 3-5% faster than MAC OSX

http://nofilmschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hackintosh_geekbench.jpg

[John McClanahan]

Will the new Win 7 system still run faster after loading the needed anti-virus, anti-malware, anti-spam and all the other goodies?

Also, if you want Windows style problems, build a Hackintosh without OS-X supported hardware. Apple makes the software for the hardware they use, that's why it works good.

John

[John Coloccia]

you used X remotely, without VNC or some similar client/server? i highly doubt that. all of those VNC type programs were invented to solve the problem that existed from the get go, being that X could not function reliably as a remote client connecting to a remote server, it only did it theoretically. the absence of standards in X for their stated design left it up to the window managers to handle that stuff, and their opinions on it vary like the number of variables in a broken xorg.conf file vary.

I'm sorry, Neil, but I really have to disagree with this. Haven't you ever seen an X terminal? At one time, X terminals littered people's desktops. X terminals have given way to the workstation, but it's still completely common and typical for applications (typically node locked) to be installed on a handful of powerful workstations stations, with only the display being redirected to the local workstation.

[Keith Outten]

If you haven't seen the new Apple video it may be worth your time, be forewarned that it is about 111 minutes long.

Clearly Apple is moving in a direction that seems to be very popular supporting automatic information sharing among desktops, phones and iPads.
The new Lion OS upgrade will be available for only $29.00 and the iCloud service is free starting this fall.
Their support for 3rd party developers seems to be a smart move and the lower cost of their software is selling hardware which seems to also be helping their bottom line. I think that Apple is moving in a very positive direction.....finally. Click on the link below to watch their latest video.

http://www.apple.com/
.

[Paul McGaha]

The kids and I bought my wife and ipad for mothers day. She loves the thing.

The way she is talking her next computer for sure will be an apple, probably her next cell phone too.

I've been with her for 33 years, had no idea she was an apple girl.

PHM

[Curt Harms]

because ubuntu isn't selling politics, they're trying to sell an OS.

i really hope they succeed, but they're gonna have to drag the "i like my OS broken" zealots kicking and screaming along with them.

Kicking and screaming they are :D. Someone from the tech support universe checked into one of those threads and made a good case for restricting customization. Ubuntu sells support services. Having 100 different desktop configurations would make telephone support impossible. Support via remote access would be a little better but



You have to be able to get the O.S. up and connected to a network before a support tech can remote in. If you can get to that point, the need for tech support can lessen.
Security considerations when allowing remote access.

[joe oski]

Maybe what you need are 2 computers, one for you alone!!!! one for garbage and family. I have never had a virus on "MY" computer or slow down.
The other one, the one the family uses (but never turns av off to make things faster LOL) has been reformatted at least twice a year.
Both computers run XP, as win 7 is not compatible with my old video editor, word processor, or cad software.

[Paul Steiner]

I would like to thank everyone that responded to this thread. FYI I have decided to go with a Mac. When looking at computers with my wife, she said she wanted an all in one machine. She said that all in one machines look cleaner and nicer. We then compared Gateways, Dells, Sonys and Macs. When found that on the high end of the machines the the price difference smaller than we thought.
Also I realized that I think we will always be a two computer household, one Mac and most likey PC netbook or laptop. I probably will not throw my PC desk top out at least another year or two.
My next dilemma is what Mac to get and it comes down to the 21" or the 27"? The 21" should be fine, but wow the 27" is big and beautiful.
And do Macs go on sale? Best buy is the nearest retailer that has Macs that is likely who we will get it through if we do not find a sale elsewhere.


Paul-
I was in the same boat as you last year. Until about 5 years ago, I was strictly a Windows user - but then I started to dabble in Linux. Over time, I got to thinking about moving to Mac, and last year I finally bought a 27" iMac (aka the Big Mac). :D

I'm not going to get into the religion/politics of Windows v. Mac - there's been enough of that in this thread already. I still use both, and each has their strength and weakness.

Before you make the final decision, do all the research that you can - just like you do before buying any other tool. As part of that research, I strongly encourage you to make an appointment and visit an Apple Retail store. Don't just stop in, but actually schedule an appointment through the Apple web site. Tell them on the form what you want to look at or talk about, and they'll have the right person available to help you in the decision making process.

(That's what I did, and there was absolutely no pressure. We just walking through the product, features, options, etc. I ended up buying a refurb from Apple's online store, and it will sit right next to my Windows and Linux PCs - as soon as I finish the desk to put them on...)

[Scott Shepherd]

No, they don't do too many "sales". MacMall.com might be a tiny bit less, but not much. It's school season coming up, so make sure you follow up on any specials. A lot of time they do a back to school special during the summer and they throw in a free ipod with a new system. That's a nice $200 addition.

I think there's a free printer deal too. You have to buy it for $100 and then send in the rebate to get $100 back.

Edit- I just checked a site about it and they all expected to be announced yesterday, but it wasn't, so I would expect to to be announced very soon.

If you have a student in the family (or friend), there is an educational discount of 3% or something like that. Might be 5%, I can't remember. It's worth getting them to ride along with you. Rent a kid if you have to :)

[Brian Ashton]

I would like to thank everyone that responded to this thread. FYI I have decided to go with a Mac. When looking at computers with my wife, she said she wanted an all in one machine. She said that all in one machines look cleaner and nicer. We then compared Gateways, Dells, Sonys and Macs. When found that on the high end of the machines the the price difference smaller than we thought.
Also I realized that I think we will always be a two computer household, one Mac and most likey PC netbook or laptop. I probably will not throw my PC desk top out at least another year or two.
My next dilemma is what Mac to get and it comes down to the 21" or the 27"? The 21" should be fine, but wow the 27" is big and beautiful.
And do Macs go on sale? Best buy is the nearest retailer that has Macs that is likely who we will get it through if we do not find a sale elsewhere.

You need to decide what you're going to do with it.

Do you have a need for a 27" screen? Remember the bigger it is the more limited places it will fit.

Do you need the graphics processing power? Remember at best your computer will save you about 1 second of time sitting in front of it waiting for something to finish...

Do you need the CPU processing power? Same as above. At best you can expect to save 5 seconds of your life (much less than it took to read this, unless you're one of those freak speed readers) waiting for the little rainbow coloured ball to stop spinning...

Do you need 1TB of HDD space? Remember if you go down the safe route you will need a backup (Time Machine) external drive that will need to be bigger than the internal HDD...

Remember that very few computer users, pc or mac, ever use their computers full potential or even come close for that matter. It's much less about what you need (lets face it 95% of use would be fine with a Celeron for what we do with computers but that's not "cool") and far more about the psychology and the human desire to have the latest and greatest technology.

If you have the money and it won't impact on anything else - then who cares buy the big one... On the other hand $800 is a large amount for some. I could buy a lot of tools from LV for $800.

[Rich Harman]

You need to decide what you're going to do with it.

Do you have a need for a 27" screen? Remember the bigger it is the more limited places it will fit.

Do you need the graphics processing power? Remember at best your computer will save you about 1 second of time sitting in front of it waiting for something to finish...

Do you need the CPU processing power? Same as above. At best you can expect to save 5 seconds of your life (much less than it took to read this, unless you're one of those freak speed readers) waiting for the little rainbow coloured ball to stop spinning...

Do you need 1TB of HDD space? Remember if you go down the safe route you will need a backup (Time Machine) external drive that will need to be bigger than the internal HDD...

Remember that very few computer users, pc or mac, ever use their computers full potential or even come close for that matter. It's much less about what you need (lets face it 95% of use would be fine with a Celeron for what we do with computers but that's not "cool") and far more about the psychology and the human desire to have the latest and greatest technology.

If you have the money and it won't impact on anything else - then who cares buy the big one... On the other hand $800 is a large amount for some. I could buy a lot of tools from LV for $800.


The Time Machine external HDD does NOT need to be larger than the internal drive - it can even be smaller. However, it does need to be larger than the space you are using on the internal HDD. You can also exclude folders from the backup so that you are not backing up things that take up lots of space that are not that important.

As far as using the computer to it's full potential, I think many people really do. If you are just surfing the web and emailing then probably not but as soon as you start using graphics or CAD programs then you are. Since every hardware improvement in computers is used by the software developers to add more features to their programs it seems like you can never stay ahead performance-wise. All you have to do to use the full potential of computer is start up Aperture or run Windows using Parallels.

[Brian Ashton]

The Time Machine external HDD does NOT need to be larger than the internal drive - it can even be smaller. However, it does need to be larger than the space you are using on the internal HDD. You can also exclude folders from the backup so that you are not backing up things that take up lots of space that are not that important.

As far as using the computer to it's full potential, I think many people really do. If you are just surfing the web and emailing then probably not but as soon as you start using graphics or CAD programs then you are. Since every hardware improvement in computers is used by the software developers to add more features to their programs it seems like you can never stay ahead performance-wise. All you have to do to use the full potential of computer is start up Aperture or run Windows using Parallels.

That is true to a point but you lose a lot of what time machine is about... the ability to go back in time and recover from whatever may befall you. The smaller the backup drive the less time you can go back to. It can conceivably be only a few days if you are a file hoarder and or the backup drive is too small. My backup drive is double the size of my internal drive and I only have the ability to go back just under 3 weeks and the internal is only 1/3 full. I used to exclude folders but I had a hdd die on me and I learned from that to let the backup grab everything and not take chances on guessing what I do and don't think I'll need later.

Many is such a vague term. Relatively speaking it's only a small percentage of people that use their computers anywhere near their capacity and even less on even a semi regular basis. I use ArcGIS, Pytha, AutoCad and a few others and they never really taxed the computer all that often even though I was using them in a virtual pc environment running 512mgs of ram. When you look at performance tests they measure tasks in seconds of difference - that's all you loose by buying a slightly slower computer, seconds. But we're starting to sound like pc users and need to keep it on track for the OP.

[Johnny Kleso]

Will the new Win 7 system still run faster after loading the needed anti-virus, anti-malware, anti-spam and all the other goodies?

Also, if you want Windows style problems, build a Hackintosh without OS-X supported hardware. Apple makes the software for the hardware they use, that's why it works good.

John

I'll go head to head with your machine and see which is faster :)
I only have a 2.8 GHZ clocking at 3.5GHZ and 8 Gigs of memory
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=544584

[Johnny Kleso]

If you haven't seen the new Apple video it may be worth your time, be forewarned that it is about 111 minutes long.

Clearly Apple is moving in a direction that seems to be very popular supporting automatic information sharing among desktops, phones and iPads.
The new Lion OS upgrade will be available for only $29.00 and the iCloud service is free starting this fall.
Their support for 3rd party developers seems to be a smart move and the lower cost of their software is selling hardware which seems to also be helping their bottom line. I think that Apple is moving in a very positive direction.....finally. Click on the link below to watch their latest video.

http://www.apple.com/
.

Keith,
What I heard about Clouds, is they will move toward owning all content..
You buy a movie and its stored on the cloud only.. You don't own it just the rights to view it and can never resell it..

[Keith Outten]

Johnny,

It will be interesting to read the fine print when iCloud starts up. Although the majority won't even read the rules there will be some who will refuse to use the iCloud service if Apple decides to assume ownership by default and I would definitely not use the service.

[Steve Griffin]

Heard on Jay Leno last night:

"Everyone is getting excited about the new ICloud coming out soon. It's expected to give families all kinds of new ways to ignore each other" :D

-Steve

[Phil Thien]

Keith,
What I heard about Clouds, is they will move toward owning all content..
You buy a movie and its stored on the cloud only.. You don't own it just the rights to view it and can never resell it..

Been married over 20 years, that concept is nothing new to me.

[John McClanahan]

I'll go head to head with your machine and see which is faster :)
I only have a 2.8 GHZ clocking at 3.5GHZ and 8 Gigs of memory
http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=544584

I'm using a first generation, 6 year old G-5. It doesn't have any anti-virus software and still serves me well.

John

[Johnny Kleso]

John,
I built this box two years ago and I can squeeze some more out of this chip but I am happy and its very stable..
Win7 is a improvement over XP wish I switched sooner..

If you read the No Film School artical it says the only reason to switch from one OS to another is what OS you know better or what OS you have the most software for..
It said Adobe CS5 runs 3%-5% faster in Windows 7 which is nothing..
The NFS computer is much faster than a MAC that is twice the cost and on par with one much more expensive..

If you have the cash and have time to learn a new OS its an option..

[Brian Ashton]

John,
I built this box two years ago and I can squeeze some more out of this chip but I am happy and its very stable..
Win7 is a improvement over XP wish I switched sooner..

If you read the No Film School artical it says the only reason to switch from one OS to another is what OS you know better or what OS you have the most software for..
It said Adobe CS5 runs 3%-5% faster in Windows 7 which is nothing..
The NFS computer is much faster than a MAC that is twice the cost and on par with one much more expensive..

If you have the cash and have time to learn a new OS its an option..

Or get a mac and run all the OS's your heart desires, all switching on the fly.

[Bryan Morgan]

Or get a mac and run all the OS's your heart desires, all switching on the fly.

Uhm, you can do this on any computer these days.

You guys are still arguing about this? :D Holy wars! haha

[John Coloccia]

What's interesting always, to me anyway, is the suspicious lack of people that have switched from Mac, Unix or Linux to Windows with any sort of enthusiasm.

[Johnny Kleso]

I have a few friends that swtiched from MACs after they had kids and looked at prices..
There is nothing wrong with macs if you dont mind paying double :)

My guess is why people are not enthusiast about going back is it takes a pretty good time to learn a new OS well..
Plus after the cost of the CPU and new software how many people have you heard say, WOW two or three grand and a few months racking my brain learning a new OS why did I wait so long to do that..

If they had a un-maintained OS full of bugs and patches on some cheap hardware, my guess they are happy switching to anything new.

I bought a Dell Mini 10 to try Snow Lepeard.. Works flawless but even with learning videos on how to use SL its just another different OS and I am loosing intrest..
I love computers but the mini ten hasn't been touched in a week or two and I'm thinking of selling it ..

10" MAC cost me $300
The only feature it lacks from a real MAC is the what what you ma call it that creates a hot spot for other wi-fi divices..
I'm glad I didn't spend grand to find out its OK but I dont want to learn a new OS

[John Shuk]

I'm using a first generation, 6 year old G-5. It doesn't have any anti-virus software and still serves me well.

John
I'm typing this on my G5 Imac and other than a failed hard drive (Data was not lost). It is still good enough for what I do on a computer and far more I'm sure.

Hardware Overview:

Model Name: iMac G5
Model Identifier: PowerMac8,2
Processor Name: PowerPC G5 (3.1)
Processor Speed: 2 GHz
Number Of CPUs: 1
L2 Cache (per CPU): 512 KB
Memory: 1 GB
Bus Speed: 667 MHz
Boot ROM Version: 5.2.5f1
Serial Number (system): W85331S9SDZ
Hardware UUID: 00000000-0000-1000-8000-001124CED950

[Bobby O'Neal]

I am in the midst of a trial Mac basis. I have always used PCs but when the last one crapped out, I bought a cheap Mac laptop from GainSaver for 275 bucks. Mostly just to see how i like the setup, interface, blah blah. So far, I love it. Easy to use and not to hard to make the switch. I'm 28, grew up in the tech age so I'm probably above average on the tech end of it, but I'm very happy so far. Definately will buy another when the need arises.

[David Fairfield]

I have used both, prefer the PC. PC is much cheaper, does everything a Mac can do, plus run a lot more software, like Rhino 3d. And in my case the PC has been more reliable. My Mac was very unstable, it often "bombed" and didn't save my work. When I contacted Mac technical support, they were very quick to blame the software. The software tech people blamed the Mac. It just went round and round like that. Now I use the Mac as a stool in the laundry room. My 2004 Dell PC in the workshop has ingested a lot of dust and sawdust over the years, but still going strong.

Dave

[Darius Ferlas]

Model Name: iMac G5
Model Identifier: PowerMac8,2
Processor Name: PowerPC G5 (3.1)

That's when Mac machines were technologically superior. And then they switched to Intel platform.
When it comes to OS there is nothing miraculous going on, except for the ridiculous price.

I started my computer adventures with a mac and soon I felt constrained,so I switched to PCs. I prefer Linux over Windows but I do run Windows in VirtualBox on those rare occasions when I need to run some vertical app unavailable for Linux. It seems Windows under VirtualBox runs much faster than when installed directly on the PC, and that only with a portion of the available hardware resources. Attached is a screen shot of seamless mode, showing me typing this post in FireFox under Linux while MS Word 2007, Windows File Explorer,and Nautilus (Linux) run in the background.

I run this on an oldie (6 years old) laptop with 1.8GHz dual core and 2GB of RAM. I installed a solid state drive and the machine is really fast. MS Word opens in about 1 second in VBox.

[Scott Shepherd]

When it comes to OS there is nothing miraculous going on, except for the ridiculous price.

I think most "detractors" of the Mac believe this to be true, however, I see it differently. First, the OS update to the new OS coming out, Lion, costs $29. Compare that to a Windows OS update around $90. So that's cheaper.

Next, as a new Mac user, I keep trying to look for software to "buy" because I keep getting this feeling I'm missing something, but I can't figure out what. I did a screen capture for a tutorial to help a friend understand something he was trying to do. Cost me nothing. I didn't have to BUY camtasia or anything else. I can't do that on a stock Windows machine (unless they have added something). If I wanted to do that on a PC, I'd have to pay anywhere from $30-several hundred bucks to get something, unless I was a computer geek and knew how to look for free, safe software. Most users don't live in that world.

I made a slideshow of a family event. Took me about 5 minutes. Not sure where I'd be doing that level of slideshow in Windows. Maybe Movie Maker, I guess. In the times I've used that, it's never given me the level of product that came out of iphoto.

Next, I wanted to burn that to a DVD. In windows, I'd insert a blank DVD and it would say "What do you want to do with this device?" in that normal windows pop up box that confuses most users. I don't know, maybe make the disc usable? It would make me try to figure something important out in Roxio most likely. Again, as a user, how am I supposed to know all the steps, especially when I've never done them before? It's like you're supposed to know this stuff automatically.

In iPhoto, I go to a menu that says "send to iDVD". It opens it up, tells me to put the disc in, leads me through it all using themes, and I click "burn". Done.

So simple, nothing extra to buy. I didn't have to have 5 years of intricate PC knowledge to get the disc formatted or to get a menu system built for the DVD. Nothing. It was my first experience on the Mac and I took it from concept to product in about 1 hour total, about 100 photos.

I didn't have to buy anything extra. I made the photo edits, crops, color corrections in iphoto. How would I do that in Windows? I'd have to buy more software, or go back to my vast knowledge of what's safe and not safe to download for free, or some obscure website that 80% of people don't know about.

My goal was to take a family event and make a DVD. I did that. Easily. My goal wasn't to have to learn how a PC works, who's got free software, what software is good, what will do what I want. My project wasn't to "research options to make a DVD", it was to actually make a DVD.

I'm not sure how you put a price on that, but it's what keeps getting overlooked by many people. I've made movies and DVD's on a PC, I do a lot of photo editing on a PC. I have Photoshop ($600), Lightroom ($300) and several other things. I didn't need any of them for my project. Can I do all that Photoshop does, in iPhoto? No, certainly not. However, it fulfilled my needs for a slide show for my family.

I have created a website that I was using Dreamweaver for ($399), in iWeb (free and comes with the Mac) and it looks better than anything I've be able to do in Dreamweaver. Again, is Dreamweaver more powerful? Sure it is. Did I need all that power? Nope.

So to add this up, to fit my needs, I'd have spend well over $1200 in software MORE than I would have on the Mac. And in the end, my projects are done, I'm not sitting around having to figure out any complicated software programs like dreamweaver or Photoshop.

I'm not sure Mac's are as "overpriced" as many think, once you figure out all the things you have to add on a PC to get it to do anything.

I'm sure this will be countered with examples that are exactly the opposite, and that's fine. I just know that I have projects that are done, look great, and I'm happy with, where I couldn't have done that on the PC without some extensive research, digging, or learning a number of pieces of software.

To me, that's value and that makes the switch worth it for me.

[Johnny Kleso]

Here is a pic of my Dell Mini 10v runiing OSX perfectly


197824

[Darius Ferlas]

I think most "detractors" of the Mac believe this to be true, however, I see it differently. First, the OS update to the new OS coming out, Lion, costs $29. Compare that to a Windows OS update around $90. So that's cheaper.

Scott, you may have noticed that I was praising Linux rather than Windows. I paid for it $0.00 pus applicable taxes and it comes with everything an average user may need. If I need more, it's just a few clicks and I get more. Having said that, I bought a Del V130 for a friend at work. At home she is an average user (web, email, multimedia etc). The machine is not a screamer but more than adequate for her needs. She paid $430 for a Windows version. The Linux version is $30 less (sounds like you Mac OS ug at $29, doesn't it?). The machine is slick and at 0.78" it is very appealing.

As for the rest of our post, what you are describing has little to do with ease of use or software's functionality or usability, but rather reflects what has been known for centuries - it's not always how something my be difficult to learn, but rather how hard it is to unlearn the old skills that may be interfering with the new. Ever tied to learn a foreign language? The same mechanism applies.

You also admit that you are comparing some of the professional level software in Windows with some of the built in functionality of Mac OS. Of course if something allows you to do less it will be easier to use.

Now, I'm not a MS fan, but where credit is due... their UI Department is some serious business and when you carefully look at the Windows UI you will see a lot research behind it. That's not to say all will like it. My daughter has been using Linux for the last 13 years and she finds Windows confusing. She thinks Mac are completely out of whack. I wouldn't go that far, but to me Mac interface is a little less friendly that it could have been. Some issues I had with Macs:

- Trying to 'x' out of a program doesn’t close it, it simply minimizes it.
- Trying to alt-tab through your windows cycles through every single window of every single application one at a time instead of cycling between alternative applications (wow!).
- Maximizing a window doesn’t actually maximize it.
- Software choices are limited and when you talk about poorly designed software look no further than iTunes. What a piece of bloat!

Oh,and where is the right-click?

Macs are good for out of the box experience. While it had had some advantages over Windows, these are long gone and Mac's superiority over all others is rather a residual legend of the time past than reality.

[John Coloccia]

My right click works fine on the Mac.

[John McClanahan]

Some issues I had with Macs:

- Trying to 'x' out of a program doesn’t close it, it simply minimizes it.
- Trying to alt-tab through your windows cycles through every single window of every single application one at a time instead of cycling between alternative applications (wow!).
- Maximizing a window doesn’t actually maximize it.
- Software choices are limited and when you talk about poorly designed software look no further than iTunes. What a piece of bloat!

Oh,and where is the right-click?

Macs are good for out of the box experience. While it had had some advantages over Windows, these are long gone and Mac's superiority over all others is rather a residual legend of the time past than reality.


Many Windows users complain that the Mac OS doesn't work like Windows, as if Windows is the UI "standard".

As far as iTunes goes, I can't argue with you there!

A lot of people seem to think the Mac's days are numbered while Mac sales are on the rise.

John

[John Hemenway]

My right click works fine on the Mac.

Right click works fine on my Mac too. So does the scroll wheel (both up/down and left/right).

Don't know what Darius's issues are.
There is no 'X' on a Mac window so no you cannot 'x' out. But it is possible to CMD-Q to quit.
CMD-Tab will cycle thru application picker. Never tried alt-tab on a Mac.

Like any tool, you have to use it correctly to get it to 'sing'.

[Greg Peterson]

The boss' IMac did not come with a right mouse button. Just the typical Apple mouse.

Windows or Apple, six of one half dozen of the other.

[John McClanahan]

Greg, If the iMac is fairly new, it may well have two buttons. It just may not look like it. Have him check the mouse settings in the preferences. He may need to tell the computer how to use the right button. I have a new iMac at work. It has a wireless mouse that looks like any 1 button Apple mouse. It not only is 2 buttons, but has all the features of a scroll mouse without buttons or a wheel. Really slick!

John

[Greg Peterson]

Been there, done that. This is IMac is three years old. It came with a corded mouse. Settings show there is no right button. It does have a scroll button and two side buttons, either of which can be assigned right button functionality. But no right button.

[John Hemenway]

Been there, done that. This is IMac is three years old. It came with a corded mouse. Settings show there is no right button. It does have a scroll button and two side buttons, either of which can be assigned right button functionality. But no right button.

Something is not right here. What version of OS?

In 2005 Apple discontinued it's 'Pro' mouse (no scroll button) and introduced the 'Mighty Mouse'. MM has a scroll button (1/4" sphere) and has both left and right click plus a squeeze (side) button. This mouse has 4 possible clicks - left, right, squeeze and scroll button plus vertical and horizontal scroll. If you have the one with the scroll, you need to recheck the mouse system preference.

Perhaps there is another mouse driver installed? Logitech or MS? This might be interfering with the normal mouse SysPref.

[David Fairfield]

Darius' post brought back some bad memories. My Mac also came with a mouse with no right click button, like some sort of a practical joke. I eventually "clicked" it really hard with a dead blow mallet and bought a normal mouse to replace it.

Also when I went to Mac user forums to inquire about "bombing" issues the Mac technical people would not help me with, Mac users turned rabid and accused me of being a shill for PC. It was shocking, actually. Needless to say, I got no help from them either.

Dave

[Jim Koepke]

- Trying to 'x' out of a program doesn’t close it, it simply minimizes it.

As someone else said, learn the key strokes.


- Trying to alt-tab through your windows cycles through every single window of every single application one at a time instead of cycling between alternative applications (wow!).

I have never been able to find the "alt" key on my Mac. As someone else mentions:


CMD-Tab will cycle thru application picker. Never tried alt-tab on a Mac.

BTW, CMD-` will cycle through the windows of the top most application.


- Maximizing a window doesn’t actually maximize it.

I could never understand the Windows requirement that an open window must block out every other open window.


-when you talk about poorly designed software look no further than iTunes. What a piece of bloat!


I can listen to my favorite music or radio station in the back ground while doing other things on my computer. It even allows me to make a selection from my music library and burn a CD in a few minutes so I can listen in my car.

It is amazingly popular for something that you feel is soooooo baaaaaaad.


Oh,and where is the right-click?

It has been on the Mac mouse for about 5 years now. It can be programed to do what the user wants it to do. Many years before that I bought a multi button mouse for my Mac.

If you are basing your opinions of today's technology on experiences with something that is 5 years old, your opinion is not up to date.

For some of the things I like to do, even my Microsoft Certified Network Engineer friend has not been able to show me how to do on a PC.

For him, A PC works best for what he wants to do. For me, a Mac works best for what I want to do.


-Software choices are limited

There are probably 100,000 different software titles available for either PCs or Macs of which you will likely only use about 25, if that many.

I was discussing this with a coworker one time and asked him specifically what software he needed that was not available on the Mac. He couldn't name any. What it finally came down to was that for the PC, he new a lot of people who would gladly give him a pirated copy of just about any software he could imagine. If he bought a Mac, he would have to pay for his software. This was over 10 years ago, so I do not know if current software registration defeats this.

If there is a specific software need, make sure it can be handled on any platform you are considering.

Macs do have emulation software that can run programs written for Windows. I do not use this so I have no idea of the performance.

jtk

[Monte Milanuk]

I 'grew up' with PCs and M$ DOS then Windows... later someone introduced me to Linux when it was still pretty raw (Slackware was 'mainstream', and Redhat was the new kid on the block). I liked it enough to keep tinkering with it in one form or another for years. When OS X came out, though, I was done trying to get a UNIX-like OS working on a PC - I bought an eMac and fell in love. Yes the single button mouse drove me nuts for a while... got a regular USB trackball, problem solved. Later got a Macbook, but always kept a PC around for games and the odd program that there just isn't any equivalent Mac app for. Recently I 'bought' the daughter's PC laptop she'd gotten for graduation a year or two ago from her to give her a little extra cash towards buying her first Macbook (which she loves).

Here's a couple observations for ya...

That HP laptop, with Vista 64 on it and 4GB RAM and a 500GB HDD... is a dog. No other nice way to put it. My Macbook, which is a year older and came with 1GB RAM and a 60GB HDD (since upgraded to 2GB RAM and a 250GB HDD) is much more responsive and less prone to locking up, having problems, etc. Now the real surprise is that the HP laptop, re-configured for dual boot and loading Ubuntu 11.04 (a Linux distribution that tends to be somewhat 'heavy' as far as the desktop goes) is noticeably faster than it is running Vista, and faster than the Macbook as well.

I'm pretty sure my next laptop will be a Macbook Pro, probably setup for at least dual (OS X & Windows) or triple (OS X / Windows/Ubuntu) boot.

[John McClanahan]

Mac OS-X has supported 2 button mice for a long time. Even the scroll wheel has been supported for a while. If you don't like the Apple mouse, plug in any USB mouse and give it a try!

John

[Greg Peterson]

OSX, Snow Leopard. There is the body, scroll button and two squeeze bottoms on each side. The mouse configuration indicates there is only one button plus the scroll and squeeze buttons. No right click button.

This is the mouse that came with the IMac. Not my computer so I can't change the mouse to suit my tastes.

[Bryan Morgan]

Hehe now you guys are arguing about the mouses...

We use our Mac Pros and PC's on USB KVMs with Logitech mouses and Dell keyboards and everything works fine on both systems... all the buttons and scrolls work just fine... leftrightupdownsidewaysenterF1F2etcetcetc People enjoyed smashing the Apple pill mouses as they were hated by all, though not as bad as the worthless pucks they used to come with.

[John Hemenway]

OSX, Snow Leopard. There is the body, scroll button and two squeeze bottoms on each side. The mouse configuration indicates there is only one button plus the scroll and squeeze buttons. No right click button.


Does the mouse system preference look like the attached?
198048

Does the mouse look like the one pictured? White with little grey sphere for the button (here labeled 'Button 3')?

If the picture matches and there is no right button option (here labeled 'Secondary Button') you either have a defective mouse or there is some other USB pointing device driver installed that is causing a conflict.

And yes we are getting just a little bit off topic! I've never seen that happen before. ;)

[Ken Peluso]

simple answer: Yes, buy a Mac. as stated somewhere back on page one or two, its a PC on the inside, just a superbly well-made pc. Im using one now, running windows 7. sometimes I boot into OSX and it runs that extremely well too. Just one recommendation, buy the AppleCare plan for the extra $250 to get the extended warranty, its well worht the investment and if you dont have the extra $250 to drop today, you can buy it at any time before your one year warranty expires.

[Scott Shepherd]

No free ipods this year with a purchase :(

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/campaigns/back_to_school?aid=www-naus-bts2011-0526-14

$100 gift card to the app store, so you can buy music or apps or whatever.

[Joel Goodman]

I switched to a Mac when I went to an iPhone as it all works together pretty smoothly. I also have Mac at work. But if your PC is really slowing down and you have the patience (and the discs) to reinstall all your software (and drivers) and make a BU of your files to reinstall them, you might try formatting the hard drive (or just replacing it if you want a larger drive). That will give you a clean install on everything. It's also an occasion to lose a lot of outdated crap. It's a PITA but sometimes works wonders. YMMV.

[Kevin W Johnson]

MOST ALL the problems that people face with PC's are a user problem. Most users are computer illiterate, have bad usage habits that allow viruses to infect their computers, have no idea how to secure themselves, scan and remove aquired nasties, etc. People also seem to think that since they have antivirus software, they have a free pass to do whatever.

I once spent 20 minutes explaining to a retired college prefessor that he needed to reinstall Word so he could open his Word documents after a hard drive replacement due do a failed drive. I think he seemed to think that because he saw the documents .doc extension, that Word was installed, or that his documents were Word, although i cant be sure what he thought because he couldnt explain it. After 20 minutes, he still didn't have a clue and i gave up.


WHEN viruses become prevalent for Mac, it will be a huge issue, because most Mac users believe they dont need antivirus software. The only thing slowing that down is the yet relatively small user base for Mac, the virus writers just dont waste their time, as havoc is their goal. No real havoc to create with such a small user base.

My favorite Mac joke has always been.... "Macs are for people that can't use a PC"

[Brian Ashton]

WHEN viruses become prevalent for Mac, it will be a huge issue, because most Mac users believe they dont need antivirus software. The only thing slowing that down is the yet relatively small user base for Mac, the virus writers just dont waste their time, as havoc is their goal. No real havoc to create with such a small user base.

I suspect the virus and malware issues plaguing PCs will be much smaller in the Mac world simply because Apple takes far more control of what and who can gain access to their products. The PC world is a total free for all from total incompetence to genius; only the genius products get bought up and left to slowly decay by Microsoft.

Judging by Apple's track record on maintaining control, dedication to quality and being visionary I'd say they have significant works in the pipe to deal with the eventual attacks that do come, it's extremely clear that Apple is in this for the long haul. For the most part Apple is an advantageous position as they can learn from the PC world (and you can bet they have a section of people studying the issues) and what is taking place now and looking at future trends. If anything I would suspect that Apple hasn't gone too hard at present to counter malware and viruses because they don't want to play their cards early and give way any of their strategies (you don't open up on an enemy until they're in the kill zone unless you want to give way your position and get flanked); you can bet they'll be comprehensive and evolving. Apple has always been at the forefront and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Scott Shepherd]

MOST ALL the problems that people face with PC's are a user problem. Most users are computer illiterate, have bad usage habits that allow viruses to infect their computers, have no idea how to secure themselves, scan and remove aquired nasties, etc. People also seem to think that since they have antivirus software, they have a free pass to do whatever.

I almost spit out my drink from laughing at that comment. Yeah, let's blame all these problems on the users instead of thinking a computer software maker should make it so all these issues can't or won't happen.

Yeah, it's all those stupid people out there giving MS products a bad name :) Too funny!

Thanks for the morning chuckle.

[Curt Harms]

I suspect there's a limit to how much vendors can protect users from themselves. If using Windows, don't run all the time as administrator. Run a restricted user account and if something says it needs administrator privileges, ask yourself why that piece of software needs elevated privileges. Linux is the same deal, I use a desktop account except when installing updates. The difference with Linux and I suspect Apple-doesn't Apple use SUDO?-is that even in an administrator account you still have to enter a SUDO (Super User DO) password to install anything outside the user space. If an emailed picture attachment says it needs SUDO privileges to "install the viewer" and you give it, oh well.

[Chuck Gallup]

The only thing I hate about my Macs is algor is on Apple's board.
If you employ people to be creative and results oriented....Mac is the only way.
If you choose to be creative and results oriented Go Mac.
The things a Mac won't do that a PC will are worth any frustrations.
PC should be slaves to one task and chained and fenced to prevent contact with the outside world.

[Phil Thien]

I almost spit out my drink from laughing at that comment. Yeah, let's blame all these problems on the users instead of thinking a computer software maker should make it so all these issues can't or won't happen.

Yeah, it's all those stupid people out there giving MS products a bad name :) Too funny!

Thanks for the morning chuckle.

Actually, his remarks were spot-on.

In the 20+ years I've owned a computer services business, and especially in the last few years with the increasing risk of malware, I've noticed that some people experience the same problems over and over.

Problems like lost data due to empty file being saved over the top of a good file. Or, causing weird problems because they ALWAYS double click, even when a single click is all that is required, etc. And now with the threat of malware, these "types" are ALWAYS infected. We see the same people with the same problem. It is deja vu all over again! :)

And there is little you can do to protect themselves from, well, themselves. I've set many of them up with limited user accounts and a separate administrator account. They are instructed only to use the administrator account for making system changes (adding/removing software, etc.). But NOOOO. They show up with the administrator account infected because they were using it for browsing. I've even printed instructions saying "NEVER USE THE ADMINISTRATOR ACCOUNT FOR BROWSING." I've had people actually tell me just weeks later that they thought it said "ONLY USE THE ADMINISTRATOR ACCOUNT FOR BROWSING."

I've had other customers where they use the administrator account because they want to look at porn. You see, I use the Family Shield settings from Open DNS, which prevents looking at porn. I really don't give a crap if a guy wants to look at porn, but so many of them have overwhelming desires to look at the crap that they will click on ANYTHING, run ANY APP, to get something that promises a glimpse of something they've never seen before. Soon thereafter, the computer that the wife uses to talk to family out of state, and that the kids use for homework, is infected and unusable. All because they went into the administrator account to defeat the Open DNS Family Shield settings to look at their porn.

And these same guys that do it will do it multiple times. I've had to have frank conversations with women about why the computer keeps getting infected. The husband will stand right in front of me and deny everything to the wife. They are often stunned when I can say "the machine was infected at about 11:45pm on New Year's Eve. Who was using it then? And the wife will look back at her husband and say "that was you."

I've had to set administrator passwords that I don't tell the wife or husband (at their own request).

Don't even get me started on relatives. If they have dropped-by, or are staying with you for a few days, they will do things on your computer that they'd NEVER do on their own.

Kids, too. Some kids are great, responsible, mature, etc. Others, not so much.

My point is, in the 20+ years I've been doing this, I've come to the following conclusion: I'm surprised that about 75% of the population can survive. I think we've built a social safety net that is too wide, and too strong. I think we've made it too easy for too many people to stay dumb and grow old.

We are breeeding common sense out of the species.

[Scott Shepherd]

In my 35 years of using computers, I am still amazed how computer geeks just don't understand that not everyone wants or needs to be a computer geek. Setting up accounts, restricting accounts, having to understand that the email coming from your brother that says "Family photos" is really a virus by something that spoofed his email account and sent you a virus, knowing what the term spoofing is, etc, etc, etc.

Why can't you have a computer that you walk up to, turn on, browse what you want, click on google searches that you want without fear, open emails from anyone you want without worry whether it's real or not? Why is that too much to ask as a user? 98% of the population with computers aren't geeks. Oh wait, you can do that............on a Mac or Linux.

When you search "anti-virus software" on google and the links brought up in the google ads and the top 20 searches are actually links to malware infected sites. How the heck is a 65 year old wood worker that got his first computer at age 60 supposed to know that? There simply is no way for them to know what they don't know.

It astounds me that somehow a woodworker clicking on a link in google and getting infected is HIS fault, when all he was doing is searching for some cabinet hardware.

How some people think that's acceptable is beyond me. We, as a people, should DEMAND a better solution from these software manufacturers.

As for me, regardless of some industry publication that says "It's coming, one day, some time in the future....", I open what I want, I click on what I want, and I go where I want, on the Mac. Call me when you can do that on a PC.

[Greg Peterson]

In my experience, most users have no understanding of basic file management. Apple may be arguably better at this than MS, but in the grand scheme of things there is really no difference. How the OS enables the user to accomplish various tasks is mostly a matter of personal preference or taste. You say tomato, I say tomotto.

If I want a deer in the headlights look all I have to do is ask the user "where did you save the file to?". Apple, Windows, doesn't matter. This confuses the average user.

I have spent hours with my mother trying to explain to her that the computer is little more than fancy whiz bang filing cabinet. She is a highly educated, intelligent and accomplished retired professional, but the light bulb hasn't gone on when it comes interfacing with the computing environment otherwise known as the PC.

I considered recommending an Apple, but aside from the out of the box experience, she would still struggle with basic file management. And the members of the genealogy group to which she belongs also use Windows machines. If she has a question it is likely someone within the group has an answer.


I suspect the virus and malware issues plaguing PCs will be much smaller in the Mac world simply because Apple takes far more control of what and who can gain access to their products. The PC world is a total free for all from total incompetence to genius; only the genius products get bought up and left to slowly decay by Microsoft. - Brian Ashton

I would not put it past Apple to innovate their way around the virus/malware matter. Apple is an extraordinarily ambitious and innovative company. Quite the opposite of MS. Apple wants to change the world, MS wants to own the world. But again, in the end, when it comes to computing platforms, the average user is woefully ignorant of file management and neither platform do an adequate job of addressing this matter.

[Phil Thien]

I would not put it past Apple to innovate their way around the virus/malware matter. Apple is an extraordinarily ambitious and innovative company. Quite the opposite of MS. Apple wants to change the world, MS wants to own the world. But again, in the end, when it comes to computing platforms, the average user is woefully ignorant of file management and neither platform do an adequate job of addressing this matter.

Funny (but true) answer: If Apple does figure it out, Microsoft will copy it. Rim-shot please.

Not-so-funny answer: Now that the Apple O/S has been hacked and people have it running on low-cost Intel hardware from Dell, etc., more and more "hackers" from the parts of the world where they couldn't previously afford a Mac will now write Malware for the Apple platform.

And some of these guys are SMART. They will find new methods of attack that will probably surprise most.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

The nail in the coffin:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/06/16/apple_may_freeze_new_mac_introductions_until_relea se_of_mac_os_x_lion.html

[paul cottingham]

WHEN viruses become prevalent for Mac, it will be a huge issue, because most Mac users believe they dont need antivirus software. The only thing slowing that down is the yet relatively small user base for Mac, the virus writers just dont waste their time, as havoc is their goal. No real havoc to create with such a small user base.

My favorite Mac joke has always been.... "Macs are for people that can't use a PC"

I have said this before. Macs are nowhere near as vulnerable 'cause their security model wasn't created by gerbils. Macs run over FreeBSD which is very secure, as opposed to ANY Microsoft operating system, which, by design, are based on an inherently flawed security model. We had a FreeBSD mail server running for 6 years without a single incursion, despite all the attempts on it. Try that with a Microsoft server of any stripe. Virus writers exploit the mess that is the MS security model. Writing virii for any *NIX style operating system is MUCH harder. That being said, the graphical interface of OSX (which was written by Apple) may be more vulnerable.

[Phil Thien]

I have said this before. Macs are nowhere near as vulnerable 'cause their security model wasn't created by gerbils. Macs run over FreeBSD which is very secure, as opposed to ANY Microsoft operating system, which, by design, are based on an inherently flawed security model. We had a FreeBSD mail server running for 6 years without a single incursion, despite all the attempts on it. Try that with a Microsoft server of any stripe. Virus writers exploit the mess that is the MS security model. Writing virii for any *NIX style operating system is MUCH harder. That being said, the graphical interface of OSX (which was written by Apple) may be more vulnerable.

FreeBSD has had its share of security vulnerabilities. Just google "FreeBSD security vulnerability" for plenty of examples.

The reality is, the # of discovered security vulnerabilities is approximately proportional to the user base.

The # of bugs per line of code is probably pretty consistent across platforms.

[paul cottingham]

Not true. The larger issue is how the OS handles security. Allowing processes to run as a superpriveleged user (which windows does) creates all kinds of issues. *nix allows you to isolate this more, which means it is much less vulnerable. Try googling qmail vulnerabilities and read what the causes are. It ain't qmail.

[Phil Thien]

Not true. The larger issue is how the OS handles security. Allowing processes to run as a superpriveleged user (which windows does) creates all kinds of issues. *nix allows you to isolate this more, which means it is much less vulnerable. Try googling qmail vulnerabilities and read what the causes are. It ain't qmail.

Not true what?

You do realize Windows offered C2 security starting with NT. All derivatives (2000, XP, Vista, 7, and all the server operating systems) allow you to restrict administrator privileges.

BTW, limited privileges are important. But keep in mind, anything running with your user account's privileges can: (1) Hide all your files (current trick of some malware on Windows, probably soon to be Mac), (2) Delete your files, (3) Execute code that exploits a vulnerability which may give it root/administrator privileges.

[Brian Ashton]

'cause their security model wasn't created by gerbils.


Now that gets quote of the day

[Bryan Morgan]

Anyone like that song Holy Wars by Megadeth? Its a good song....

[paul cottingham]

Still based on a flawed and poor security model. Enough, we must agree to disagree.

[David Cefai]

There's an easy answer. Switch to Linux. Free and totally open. Install VirtualBox to run those (very few) apps that Linux does not hav a good equivalent for.

There are only two I know of: AutoCad and MSAccess.

[Curt Harms]

There's an easy answer. Switch to Linux. Free and totally open. Install VirtualBox to run those (very few) apps that Linux does not hav a good equivalent for.

There are only two I know of: AutoCad and MSAccess.

And a lot would say PhotoShop. GIMP works fine for me but my knowledge and requirements are modest. Oh, and GIMP is available for Windows too. I read something a day or so ago on a forum so I can't vouch for the accuracy. Someone said consumer oriented Windows versions are not licensed for use on virtual machines. I just multi-boot for the infrequent times I need Windows rather than run a virtual machine but if you want to stay legal I guess you'd need Win7 Pro or higher to install on a virtual machine.

[Phil Thien]

Still based on a flawed and poor security model. Enough, we must agree to disagree.

Okay. But for the record, I don't think it is ever fair to the person with whom you're speaking (in person or online) to make a comment like that and then end with "we must agree to disagree."

[paul cottingham]

Fine. We can continue to argue, but I think it is pretty fruitless. I started this, I'm ending it.

[Bryan Morgan]

And a lot would say PhotoShop. GIMP works fine for me but my knowledge and requirements are modest. Oh, and GIMP is available for Windows too. I read something a day or so ago on a forum so I can't vouch for the accuracy. Someone said consumer oriented Windows versions are not licensed for use on virtual machines. I just multi-boot for the infrequent times I need Windows rather than run a virtual machine but if you want to stay legal I guess you'd need Win7 Pro or higher to install on a virtual machine.


http://www.gimpshop.com/

[Greg Peterson]

If all the various flavors of linux are so fantastic, robust and secure (I am not arguing these points), why are they not more prevalent?

The Apple acolytes claim OS X is super, duper easy to use and saves many steps that MS users have to take to accomplish a similar task. The MS devotees claim that MS is the 500 pound gorilla and that the world is MS centric.

I'll provide one answer. The average user can barely operate a computer. Sure they can open a browser, maybe create documents, play with some .jpg files and maybe work with a spread sheet. But really, the average user just wants to turn on the machine and be surfing in seconds.

Apple tries very hard to insulate the user from having to know much of anything about the machine or the software. This certainly has it merits. MS is pretty much the same. Tomato, tomotto.

At the very least, Linux suffers from the perception that it is for nerds or folks that are not afraid to pop the hood and tweak their computer.

As for security, Apple's security is no better than MS if the user logs in as administrator. You think the average user is ignorant of basic file management skills? They are even more clueless when it comes to security. And no one has done an effective job of educating their user base.

I suspect people use the admin account for the same reason they take the guards off their table saws. Convenience. And Linux may do everything and then some, but surely doesn't scream convenience.

[paul cottingham]

If all the various flavors of linux are so fantastic, robust and secure (I am not arguing these points), why are they not more prevalent?

The Apple acolytes claim OS X is super, duper easy to use and saves many steps that MS users have to take to accomplish a similar task. The MS devotees claim that MS is the 500 pound gorilla and that the world is MS centric.

I'll provide one answer. The average user can barely operate a computer. Sure they can open a browser, maybe create documents, play with some .jpg files and maybe work with a spread sheet. But really, the average user just wants to turn on the machine and be surfing in seconds.

Apple tries very hard to insulate the user from having to know much of anything about the machine or the software. This certainly has it merits. MS is pretty much the same. Tomato, tomotto.

At the very least, Linux suffers from the perception that it is for nerds or folks that are not afraid to pop the hood and tweak their computer.

As for security, Apple's security is no better than MS if the user logs in as administrator. You think the average user is ignorant of basic file management skills? They are even more clueless when it comes to security. And no one has done an effective job of educating their user base.

I suspect people use the admin account for the same reason they take the guards off their table saws. Convenience. And Linux may do everything and then some, but surely doesn't scream convenience.

The real reason is market share, pure and simple. Linux is no harder or easier to use than the mac or MS. No Linux flavor lets you log in as root by default, ubuntu won't even let you su up to it. There is real security in that.

Now I'm shutting up.

[Greg Peterson]

It's all about the user experience. Imagine a day when someone asks the arcane question "what operating system does your (insert ubiquitous computer appliance name) use?" and the answer is "Huh? Operating system? What's that?".

We are in the midst of a OS battle. A few years from now the desktop OS battle will seem trivial and quaint.

[John McClanahan]

It's all about the user experience. Imagine a day when someone asks the arcane question "what operating system does your (insert ubiquitous computer appliance name) use?" and the answer is "Huh? Operating system? What's that?".

We are in the midst of a OS battle. A few years from now the desktop OS battle will seem trivial and quaint.

Google likes the way you think! :D:D:D

John

[Bryan Morgan]

Google likes the way you think! :D:D:D

John

Which is Linux.... just sayin'

[paul cottingham]

Which is Linux.... just sayin'

You Are The Man!

[Carl Beckett]

This is like asking:

'What table saw should I buy?'

or

'What bandsaw is best?'

;)

[paul cottingham]

Or pins or tails first?

[John Coloccia]

Bring some dowsing rods with you to the store. They will cross when you get to the right computer

:D

[Guy Roland]

My solution is, both. My work consists of manipulating graphics. I have been an Apple user since the Apple IIe with 64k of ram. I run a desktop G4 and a Macbook pro both of these machines are full blown so were fairly expensive. They see the internet only for selective upgrades. My internet time is spent on a low end Dell laptop, I've had a few viruses but nothing I couldn't clean up. My Macs are too important to me to even take a chance on having trouble, not when I can buy a decent laptop for a few hundred dollars that I can reformat when necessary because I have nothing on it that important.

[Steve Griffin]

My solution is, both. My work consists of manipulating graphics. I have been an Apple user since the Apple IIe with 64k of ram. I run a desktop G4 and a Macbook pro both of these machines are full blown so were fairly expensive. They see the internet only for selective upgrades. My internet time is spent on a low end Dell laptop, I've had a few viruses but nothing I couldn't clean up. My Macs are too important to me to even take a chance on having trouble, not when I can buy a decent laptop for a few hundred dollars that I can reformat when necessary because I have nothing on it that important.

Sort of like many tools in the shop--best way to keep your good set of chisels in top shape is have a beater chisel around for non-critical work.

I might do the same in reverse--keep my 8 year old mac (which has worked flawlessly for the internet without a single problem or minute wasted worrying about "viruses) as an internet machine. And then get an affordable PC with a nice big monitor to run sketchup and do bookkeeping etc.

I also like the idea of unplugging the computer with all the important stuff on it more often during thunderstorm season. The beater internet machine can stay on all the time.

-Steve

[Curt Harms]

Sort of like many tools in the shop--best way to keep your good set of chisels in top shape is have a beater chisel around for non-critical work.

I might do the same in reverse--keep my 8 year old mac (which has worked flawlessly for the internet without a single problem or minute wasted worrying about "viruses) as an internet machine. And then get an affordable PC with a nice big monitor to run sketchup and do bookkeeping etc.

I also like the idea of unplugging the computer with all the important stuff on it more often during thunderstorm season. The beater internet machine can stay on all the time.

-Steve

That's how I use Windows & Linux. Linux for all online stuff and office-type stuff. Libre Office has good enough MS office file compatibility for my purposes--excellent as long as I don't need macros to run which I don't. The only thing I really need Windows for is Quickbooks and I don't need Quickbooks access that often. It takes less than 2 minutes to shut down Linux, boot Windows, do what I need to do in Quickbooks then another 2 minutes or less to shut down Windows and reboot Linux. If I needed Quickbooks more often I'd look at a virtual Windows machine. Works for me.

[paul cottingham]

That's how I use Windows & Linux. Linux for all online stuff and office-type stuff. Libre Office has good enough MS office file compatibility for my purposes--excellent as long as I don't need macros to run which I don't. The only thing I really need Windows for is Quickbooks and I don't need Quickbooks access that often. It takes less than 2 minutes to shut down Linux, boot Windows, do what I need to do in Quickbooks then another 2 minutes or less to shut down Windows and reboot Linux. If I needed Quickbooks more often I'd look at a virtual Windows machine. Works for me.

Virtualbox works great for that and its freely available as Open Source Software. Check it out. http://www.virtualbox.org/

[Keith Parker]

I'm sure these things have been said already, too many posts to read them all, but, if you don't buy a Mac, your pot is cracked.

Read my lips...

No known viruses !!!

Only platform that runs Windows, Linux, AND Mac OS ! Although you are not virus free under windows.

I've sold desktop computer off and on since 1982. I've worked on a dozen operating systems, and we have never been without a Mac or 2, since 1984. (128k ram, 400k 3.5" diskettes, $1995.00)

My 83 year old mother is on her 3 one, she should buy a new one, she keeps out living them. Her first was my old Mac II back in 1990.

In a business role, think 2 - 4 years, at home as much as 5 - 7 years depending on your use. I have a OLD B&W Apple network laser printer (16/600 introduced in 1994, still works great), that sold for $5995.00. I found it on eBay for $100 delivered!

BUY IT ! And learn what you're missing, haters only hate because they don't know.

I don't know anyone that has switched from Mac to PC in my whole life. Get one and enjoy!

later,

[Phil Thien]

Read my lips...

No known viruses !!!


Again, any time someone says that, I'm going to correct them. If you're saying the malware that has hit for the Mac isn't a virus, you're correct. But you're also splitting hairs.

10.6.8 has substantial security updates. I suggest people make sure their notebooks are updated. One of these days, one of these pieces of Mac malware are going to find a security hole that will give them su access. It is only a matter of time.

Still love my Macs. I use them every day. But going around and saying there is no threat isn't the right approach.

[Bryan Morgan]

No known viruses !!!

This can be argued to death but this point simply is not true and has already been explained.

[paul cottingham]

It has been argued to death yes, but far from explained as not true.

BTW it has also been explained that bevel up planes are better.
Oh and that Japanese saws are better.
And that hand tool only joinery is better.

[Steve Griffin]

I totally believe those that warn of Mac Viruses.

After reading this thread, I know know it's an astounding statistical coincidence that all the years I've used mac and every single mac owner I've ever met has had zero problems. Conversely, every single PC owner has to horse around with anti-virus stuff and most have had problems anyway.

-Steve

[Phil Thien]

It has been argued to death yes, but far from explained as not true.

BTW it has also been explained that bevel up planes are better.
Oh and that Japanese saws are better.
And that hand tool only joinery is better.

It is comments like that which I think really do the Mac user base more harm, than good. When I explain the issue to people, I try to be as impartial as possible. No, there was no general malware threat to the Mac until a couple of months ago. Yes, now there is. It is false hope to think it will just go away now. However, Apple is working diligently on patching all their known security holes, and so far the malware for the Mac has been very easy to handle.

But going around and denying the existence of malware for the Mac isn't the right approach. And hanging your hat on the fact that these aren't technically viruses and so therefor you can deny any viruses for the Mac is the sort of answer I'd expect of a politician, or a corporation trying to cover their you know what.

I think we should just own it. So far I've told people buying a Mac that there is malware now, but I knew it was only a matter of time and I'd rather have Apple working on the problem than Microsoft. I feel that is an honest answer.

[Jim Becker]

It's quite important to understand that the largest percentage of software threats out there these days are not what we used to call viruses...which were considerably simpler than today's malware that is almost always "socially engineered". That's why it can pose a threat no matter what flavor of operating system one uses or how many different products one might use to attempt to keep a computer "safe". The biggest threat to your computer is...you. Your machine is most likely to get infected because of some action (or inaction) you take...a click here; a link followed there...

Even on this nice nearly new iMac I'm typing on now (my first Mac), I try to take great care about what I do and where I go, because the chances are that something bad can happen if I do something stupid.

[paul cottingham]

It is comments like that which I think really do the Mac user base more harm, than good. When I explain the issue to people, I try to be as impartial as possible. No, there was no general malware threat to the Mac until a couple of months ago. Yes, now there is. It is false hope to think it will just go away now. However, Apple is working diligently on patching all their known security holes, and so far the malware for the Mac has been very easy to handle.

But going around and denying the existence of malware for the Mac isn't the right approach. And hanging your hat on the fact that these aren't technically viruses and so therefor you can deny any viruses for the Mac is the sort of answer I'd expect of a politician, or a corporation trying to cover their you know what.

I think we should just own it. So far I've told people buying a Mac that there is malware now, but I knew it was only a matter of time and I'd rather have Apple working on the problem than Microsoft. I feel that is an honest answer.

And a good and fair one. I would rather have mac working on the issue as well. As a point of fact, my wife's mac got nailed with that weird virus like thing where a web page tells you to install their web scanner....and voila you are infected. That is more social engineering than anything tho'. I am much more interested in malware for Linux, and the relative lack of it. I do run a virus scanner on my *nix boxen, even tho' I am not really worried about it. 15 years or so of fixing windows boxen left too deep an imprint on me.

[Bryan Morgan]

And a good and fair one. I would rather have mac working on the issue as well. As a point of fact, my wife's mac got nailed with that weird virus like thing where a web page tells you to install their web scanner....and voila you are infected. That is more social engineering than anything tho'. I am much more interested in malware for Linux, and the relative lack of it. I do run a virus scanner on my *nix boxen, even tho' I am not really worried about it. 15 years or so of fixing windows boxen left too deep an imprint on me.

The old "never gets any viruses" OS9 used to have all kinds of viruses.... One that popped up everywhere took advantage of Macs version of auto run. Literally every customer that brought be working files had that virus on their media. And there are a number of Linux viruses as well. We run a public FTP and pirates are always trying to upload things for their buddies to download. Problem is downloads are disabled. So these little turds get mad after wasting time to upload and then think they are slick and try to hack our FTP (so far unsuccessful). They try and deposit their viruses and run them. I've submitted a number of them to AV companies. Heck, we had an old SGI IRIX box that got hit with a real virus that we didn't even know about until the FBI contacted us wanting to describe our damages to pile onto some guy they caught.


At any rate, this thread should probably be closed... its turning into and endless holy war and I can't help getting caught up in it. :D

[paul cottingham]

At any rate, this thread should probably be closed... its turning into and endless holy war and I can't help getting caught up in it. :D

Amen, brother.

[Darius Ferlas]

Even on this nice nearly new iMac I'm typing on now (my first Mac), I try to take great care about what I do and where I go, because the chances are that something bad can happen if I do something stupid.

Sadly, other Mac users often fall victims to their own false sense of security, when it has been proven time and again that Mac is not as secure as many hoped. Many don't even realize they had been hacked since those who know what they are doing use the old golden rule when breaking into other people's machines: get in, stay low.


Last year (2009) at the contest, it took only five seconds for a security researcher to hijack a Mac by hacking in through Safari. The year previous, it took less than two minutes to hack in to a Macbook Air --- and once again, Safari proved to be the security hole.

source (http://blogs.computerworld.com/15605/hacker_pwn2own_organizer_windows_7_is_safer_than_s now_leopard)

A year before that, this was the news snippet from 2008 competition:

The dust has settled on PWN 2 OWN and Linux FTW! The Ubuntu-equipped Sony VAIO was the only computer to get through the tournament unscathed, managing to elude the assembled hackers. On Thursday the MacBook Air was the first to go, followed the next day by the Vista-running Fujitsu, conquered by Shane Macaulay. No one, but no one, however, was able to bring down the penguin.

This year during Pwn2Own a Mac fell in two minutes.
Does that mean Linux is bullet proof? Heck, no. No operating system is. Some are safer than others though.

(posted from Linux, 15 years without a single piece of malware)

[paul cottingham]

Amen, brother! Testify! Still rather have a mac than a pc from a maintenance point of view.

[Scott Shepherd]

Sadly, other Mac users often fall victims to their own false sense of security, when it has been proven time and again that Mac is not as secure as many hoped. Many don't even realize they had been hacked since those who know what they are doing use the old golden rule when breaking into other people's machines: get in, stay low.


Last year (2009) at the contest, it took only five seconds for a security researcher to hijack a Mac by hacking in through Safari. The year previous, it took less than two minutes to hack in to a Macbook Air --- and once again, Safari proved to be the security hole.

source (http://blogs.computerworld.com/15605/hacker_pwn2own_organizer_windows_7_is_safer_than_s now_leopard)

A year before that, this was the news snippet from 2008 competition:

The dust has settled on PWN 2 OWN and Linux FTW! The Ubuntu-equipped Sony VAIO was the only computer to get through the tournament unscathed, managing to elude the assembled hackers. On Thursday the MacBook Air was the first to go, followed the next day by the Vista-running Fujitsu, conquered by Shane Macaulay. No one, but no one, however, was able to bring down the penguin.

This year during Pwn2Own a Mac fell in two minutes.
Does that mean Linux is bullet proof? Heck, no. No operating system is. Some are safer than others though.

(posted from Linux, 15 years without a single piece of malware)

So where's evidence this is a threat to Mac users? Because at a HACKING contest, it got hacked by professional HACKERS? How many people are hacking into computers? How big a threat is hacking as compared to viruses and malware? Probably not even on the radar.

As a side note, the people that hacked those systems also worked with Apple to close them. Unlike MS, Apple DO listen to those people, and do implement corrections. All this virus crud was all started by people because there were issues they were finding, they tried to work with MS to alert them of the issues and MS told them to butt out. Back Orifice (Cult of the Dead Cow) all tried to help resolve issues. There work ended up being ignored my MS, latched onto by their social network of hackers and they started developing things to take take it all down via trojan horses,etc.

Apple has a fairly decent (not perfect) reputation of working with people that show exploits in their code to resolve them.

There, that out to carry this thread on for another 20 posts :D

[Mel Turcanik]

Pretty much everything has been beat to death regarding Mac vs. PC, but all I can say is I've done both, prefer the Mac because of it's ease of use and the fantastic SERVICE I get from Apple when I do have a problem. The extended warranties have more than paid for themselves and I've even had questions answered about out of warranty products. I have a computer to get work done, not work on making the computer work. The only thing you will probably have an issue with is the CAD system. I'm now using Google Sketchup, free, and have reprogrammed my brain to it's logic. I have no need for any other CAD but if you are used to Autocad, the switchover will mean some learning curve, but once you get the logic it's very easy. Also, free office suites from Open Office or LibreOffice make paying for WP, spreadsheets etc. a thing of the past, and those suites work and move files over all platforms without any problems. When I did comparisons of computing power and software costs, the Apple products come out cheaper than PC's, when I throw in my time spent on operating issues, way cheaper.

[Darius Ferlas]

So where's evidence this is a threat to Mac users? Because at a HACKING contest, it got hacked by professional HACKERS?
I showed the evidence, and the problem is precisely that threats come from PROFESSIONAL hackers. Not the ones who come to contests for $10K rewards though, even if, just like the good hackers, they have full support of their governments or organized crime. It's not the script kiddies that we need to worry about, but the PhD's from the likes of China, Russia or Iran. Sadly, some of the best IT minds work day in day out to get into your machine and mine.



How many people are hacking into computers? How big a threat is hacking as compared to viruses and malware? Probably not even on the radar.

I think we have a little problem with terminology here. (black) hacking is a process while viruses and other malware are some of the ways to perpetrate hacking. When I hack into a machine it doesn't matter how I did it. I could have used a virus, a crafty web page, a little social engineering etc. The only thing that matters is I'm in, therefore I hacked a machine and I control it.


As a side note, the people that hacked those systems also worked with Apple to close them. Unlike MS, Apple DO listen to those people, and do implement corrections.
MS did learn their lesson and, even though I am not their big fan, things are hugely better now. Just recently, two users caught a trojan on Win7 machines. Since they were logged in as users with restricted rights, all it took was a reboot and the threat was gone. I hear that won't cut it for the latest Mac security problems, will it?

Apple is still facing a little bit of a learning curve in this area. OK, maybe not a little bit, given Apple's arrogance which is matched only by that of Microsoft. But it's best if you don't take my word for it. See for yourself - the report published just over a month ago. The author gave it the following title:

Apple continues to tell support reps: do not help with Mac malware.

Read it. (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/apple-continues-to-tell-support-reps-do-not-help-with-mac-malware/3375) Very interesting, it surely puts the good Apple Inc. myth in perspective and it may make you feel a little less secure, which is a good thing in the long run.


So where's evidence this is a threat to Mac users? Because at a HACKING contest, it got hacked by professional HACKERS?
I showed the evidence, and the problem is precisely that threats come from PROFESSIONAL hackers. Not the ones who come to contests for $10K rewards though, even if, just like the good hackers, they have full support of their governments or organized crime. It's not the script kiddies that we need to worry about, but the PhD's from the likes of China, Russia or Iran. Sadly, some of the best IT minds work day in day out to get into your machine and mine.



How many people are hacking into computers? How big a threat is hacking as compared to viruses and malware? Probably not even on the radar.

I think we have a little problem with terminology here. (black) hacking is a process while viruses and other malware are some of the ways to perpetrate hacking. When I hack into a machine it doesn't matter how I did it. I could have used a virus, a crafty web page, a little social engineering etc. The only thing that matters is I'm in, therefore I hacked a machine and I control it.


As a side note, the people that hacked those systems also worked with Apple to close them. Unlike MS, Apple DO listen to those people, and do implement corrections.
MS did learn their lesson and, even though I am not their big fan, things are hugely better now. Just recently, two users caught a trojan on Win7 machines. Since they were logged in as users with restricted rights, all it took was a reboot and the threat was gone. I hear that won't cut it for the latest Mac security problems, will it?

Apple is still facing a little bit of a learning curve in this area. OK, maybe not a little bit, given Apple's arrogance which is matched only by that of Microsoft. But it's best if you don't take my word for it. See for yourself - the report published just over a month ago. The author gave it the following title:

Apple continues to tell support reps: do not help with Mac malware.

Read it. (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/apple-continues-to-tell-support-reps-do-not-help-with-mac-malware/3375) Very interesting, it surely puts the good Apple Inc. myth in perspective and it may make you feel a little less secure, which is a good thing in the long run.


Pretty much everything has been beat to death regarding Mac vs. PC, but all I can say is I've done both, prefer the Mac because of it's ease of use and the fantastic SERVICE I get from Apple when I do have a problem.
I have little experience in that field, but I do know of one such Mac support "specialist". He is one of many of the same caliber. His mom cals me once in a while to get help with things that I'd consider trivial to moderately difficult.

In fact, one of the support centers is in Niagara in Ontario. They pay $12/hr (minimum wage in Ontario is $10.25, I believe). No professional IT experience, or even a one year diploma is required. You need good telephone manners and if you have used a computer (Windows is certainly acceptable) for a few yeas you're in. They sit you in front of a computer screen and you click through menus as the callers questions come in.


The extended warranties have more than paid for themselves and I've even had questions answered about out of warranty products.
I got the same from Dell. Up to 5 years, including accidental damage, i.e. insurance from my own stupidity such as coffee spilled on the keyboard, or cracked screen if I happen to drop the laptop. A cracked screen happened to me on my now old Lattitude D620. I called at 2pm, a contractor was in my office the next day at 9 am.


I have a computer to get work done, not work on making the computer work. The only thing you will probably have an issue with is the CAD system. I'm now using Google Sketchup, free, and have reprogrammed my brain to it's logic. I have no need for any other CAD but if you are used to Autocad, the switchover will mean some learning curve, but once you get the logic it's very easy. Also, free office suites from Open Office or LibreOffice make paying for WP, spreadsheets etc. a thing of the past, and those suites work and move files over all platforms without any problems. When I did comparisons of computing power and software costs, the Apple products come out cheaper than PC's, when I throw in my time spent on operating issues, way cheaper.

All the above is available for Mac, Linux and Windows. My personal preference is Linux over Windows. Given that an average computer ownership/replacement cycle is in the area of 3 to 5 years, I cannot afford to buy more expensive Macs for home so I buy Dell machines. Some can be had with Linux (a little less expensive) others come with Windows. I get rid of Windows and all my home machines run Linux, mine has Windows in a VirtualBox because of work related software.
Work requires Windows because of some legacy applications and lack of some specific enterprise grade accounting systems for Mac or Linux. We used to have one for UNIX and I ported it to Linux. It was used until it was obsoleted by lack of updates. Mac does not offer email servers to speak of, and again, however much I dislike Microsoft's policies, their Exchange-Server is the benchmark all other email servers are judged against.

About the only one that I would trade it for is IBM's domino server which is available for Windows, AIX, Linux... not for Mac.

[Joe Vincent 63]

I have been using PCs since the PC Jr in the early 80s (yes $2200 in 1981 $), and have worked on them extensively, as well as I now manage an entire department supporting the companies PCs (and other things as well).

3 years ago, we were loading pictures and tagging them on a new PC at home (I take pictures for my boys sports teams) using Adobe software. The PC hung, and we couldn't recover our work. My wife told me to do whatever I needed to so it didn't happen again :). Purchased an Imac, and have never looked back. The computer gets 10x the usage my PCs got, and we never have issues as we had with the PCs.

My biggest gripe is that I can't justify a new computer every 2-3 years. My imac is 3 years old, and it still works like the day I got it. I have seen many others purchase a Mac since I bought mine. While there is always an initial concern that it is a little more expensive, I have yet to hear anyone who regrets the purchase.

[Scott Shepherd]

Darius, the article you referred to has been discussed earlier in the thread. There is NO risk with the listed malware if your OS is up to date. It has been addressed.

As mentioned before, what happens when you call MS and tell them you have a virus? Do they spend time helping you clean it? No. So I'm not sure why you think Apple should help people remove malware, but MS shouldn't.

Here's a thought......how about designing operating systems that are secure enough that malware won't affect them? Now there's a novel concept......

[Phil Thien]

3 years ago, we were loading pictures and tagging them on a new PC at home (I take pictures for my boys sports teams) using Adobe software. The PC hung, and we couldn't recover our work.

Well, I've had that sort of stuff happen on my Mac.

My current struggle is my new digital camcorder, which saves things in an MP4 container. The video is 1080p. When I try to watch it on my Mac machines it is very choppy. Makes editing a problem.

So I took an older TPad T61 and loaded Win7, and the MP4 playback is smooth. Note, that this T61 is older (slower CPU) than any of the Mac machines in my arsenal.

I really want this to work on my Mac, because that is how I'm accustomed to editing video. But I needed to get some quick projects done and Windows Live Movie Maker worked, the Mac didn't.

My Mac notebook by far has the best screen of any notebooks I have. So I've always enjoyed using that for editing video and photographs. My Windows notebooks all have much smaller screens. I don't really want to buy more stuff right now, either.

[Curt Harms]

Here's a thought......how about designing operating systems that are secure enough that malware won't affect them? Now there's a novel concept......

Easier said than done, I think. Remember, the "opposition" aren't necessarily the "social incompetent in Mom's basement" stereotype.

[John Coloccia]

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Mac-and-Linux-Viruses-Growth-to-Explode-Not-Windows-Vista-53096.shtml

In case you didn't notice, that article was from 2007. I'm sure I can find them from 2006, 05, 04, 03 etc also. It's the same nonsense that we've been hearing for years about Mac and Linux. Without getting into any technical mumbo jumbo, I'll simply reiterate what I said earlier: I'll worry about it when it happens. Until then, it's all a bunch of hot air, and has been for a decade.

[paul cottingham]

Here's a thought......how about designing operating systems that are secure enough that malware won't affect them? Now there's a novel concept......
OpenBSD is a very tight, secure OS. So is FreeBSD. I have never succeeded in getting a graphical interace working well on them, tho' At least not well enough for a regular user to use it.

[Greg Peterson]

To turn an old gear head phrase, "If it's got bit or drives, you've got problems.".

The stereotypical geek is a quaint stereotype. Even though Stuxnet was built to run on Windows, it was not engineered by some pencil neck geek. Sure, the engineers were probably geeks at one time, but they grew up into talented code wranglers and someone with very deep pockets put them on the payroll.

Digital espionage and crime are a reality of the 21st century. An OS no longer needs to be king of the mountain to be susceptible to attack.

[Bryan Morgan]

Here's a thought......how about designing operating systems that are secure enough that malware won't affect them? Now there's a novel concept......

As much as we fuel the holy war and rip on each OS, I think we can all admit all of these OS's are secure as the user using them. 99.99999999999999999% of the time I've had to repair an OS (Mac, PC, whatever) its because the user has done something stupid. You can argue they should be easier to use or more protected... well, modern cars have all kinds of sensors, airbags, fancy brakes, etc etc etc none of which will do you any good when you plow into a wall at 100 mph. I guess what I'm saying, is instead of blaming the car, how about people start focusing on their driving skills. 99% of what people are calling "viruses" these days really aren't. They are user triggered malware. Like guns, they don't fire themselves, it takes someone to pull the trigger. Ignorance isn't going to to anyone any bit of good. Sure you can put safety nets in your OS but the smart ones will always find a way around. Google images has all kinds of nasty stuff going on right now, but you have to click it first. Everyone hates MS's UAC stuff in Vista/7 but can you blame them? Every thing you click: "Are you SURE you want to do this?" Super annoying to some of us. Of course it can be disabled but you get my point. People need to start learning how to use these things and stop blaming the machine for their own errors. It seems in too many walks of life people are quick to blame everyone and everything else but themselves. We always tell people its an error between the chair and the keyboard.

[Scott Shepherd]

Google images has all kinds of nasty stuff going on right now, but you have to click it first.

And how's the over 50 population that didn't grow up on computers supposed to magically "know" they can't click on a photo from google images? You'd have to be a geek to know that, and 99% of computer users aren't geeks.



People need to start learning how to use these things and stop blaming the machine for their own errors. It seems in too many walks of life people are quick to blame everyone and everything else but themselves. We always tell people its an error between the chair and the keyboard.

Spoken like a true geek. There is absolutely NO FAULT on the USER when they get an email from a FAMILY member that says "Family Photos" and they open it to click on the link, only to find out they now have a virus or malware. How in the world you can blame that on the user is beyond comprehension. I guess we'll have to educate senior citizens that if they get that email, then they have to hover over the link and look for the real url (like anyone but a geek knows what a url is) and compare it to see if there's a mismatch before clicking.

That's an insane request for users.

However, if you have an ipad or a Mac, you can click that and it doesn't matter.

According to Symantec, as of July 2nd (today), here's the stats :

Total Detections (Threats & Risks): 12,113,310 for Windows

Now, let's compare that to Mac. Total known malware or virus that's not protected by the current OS..........wait for it..................zero.

That's 12 MILLIONS vs. Zero. Or, let's give MacDefender the status of active (which it's not, since it's been resolved in the OS update a month ago). So that would make it 12,000,000 vs. 1.

I know which odds I'd rather play with.

[Phil Thien]

Digital espionage and crime are a reality of the 21st century. An OS no longer needs to be king of the mountain to be susceptible to attack.

Amen to that, brother.

Case in point: The virus that was apparently crafted to infect the model of Siemens programmable controller used to run the centrifuges in Iran's enrichment program.

You want to talk specific, you don't get more specific than THAT.

And a crafty virus it is (was?), because it changed the RPM's of the machines just enough that they didn't work. I can't recall if it destroyed the machines or not, my recollection was that it just screwed up the works enough for the engineers to sit there and scratch their heads for months and months.

Apparently it took someone very familiar with Siemens controllers (again, working from memory but I think a Siemens engineer) to find the virus.

THAT is impressive.

[John Coloccia]

Amen to that, brother.

Case in point: The virus that was apparently crafted to infect the model of Siemens programmable controller used to run the centrifuges in Iran's enrichment program.

You want to talk specific, you don't get more specific than THAT.

And a crafty virus it is (was?), because it changed the RPM's of the machines just enough that they didn't work. I can't recall if it destroyed the machines or not, my recollection was that it just screwed up the works enough for the engineers to sit there and scratch their heads for months and months.

Apparently it took someone very familiar with Siemens controllers (again, working from memory but I think a Siemens engineer) to find the virus.

THAT is impressive.

Didn't we blow up a Russian pipeline some time ago with bad code? I forget the details but I seem to recall this.

[paul cottingham]

We always tell people its an error between the chair and the keyboard.
PEBKAC error! Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair! I used to tell my students that it was the most common computer problem. That and the well documented id10t error.

[Phil Thien]

Didn't we blow up a Russian pipeline some time ago with bad code? I forget the details but I seem to recall this.

Yeah, talk about spy vs. spy...

The code was bad. But they weren't supposed to have the code in the first place.

We knew they were going to make an effort steal the technology, so we made sure they got a hacked version. They used it on the Siberian pipeline.

When it blew, it went like a tactical nuke, something like 2.5 or three gigagrams of TNT.

[Jim Becker]

I'm thinking that this topic has, well...been fully covered for the moment...and given some of the dialog getting close to the edge, it's time to let it rest.

Thread closed.

Jim
SMC Moderator