Toekicks--Is it time to rethink them?

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

You've all heard the story about the lady as she's cooking the ham, she cuts it in half. And her daughter asked her why. Turns out the great-grandmother's pot was too small to cook the whole ham, but the dauthers/grands kept cutting the ham in half even when they had bigger pots. Now, toekicks---WHY?

I'm about to build some base kitchen cabinets that will be all drawers, and as I was standing in front of my present ones I asked why the need for a toekick. It seems a better to utilize that space for drawers. I'd like to hear ya'll's thoughts. Thanks

[scott vroom]

smaller people with shorter arms will thank you for designing in toekicks

[Mike Henderson]

Well, when you get older, it gets harder to bend that far over. The new dishwashers, for example, have very low decks - they've made the mechanicals very small now - and I don't like how far you have to bend over to put stuff in or take stuff out. I'm thinking of getting a drawer dishwasher for that very reason.

Mike

[Rich Engelhardt]

The drawer on the bottom of our bathroom vanity has the toe kick incorporated into it as part of the drawer front.
This makes for a nice deep drawer with lots more storage.

[michael case]

Besides that working on the counter would be uncomfortable, imagine what the bottom drawer fronts would look like after a few years of scuffing and water stains from mopping.

[Chip Lindley]

Toe kicks are an essential ergonomic feature of base cabinets. here is a neat online explanation (http://ergonomics.about.com/od/kitchen/f/toe_kick.htm)of the toe kick. The recess eases strain on the legs and allows greater reach.

Toe kicks, in a way, are "bases" for kitchen cabinets or bath vanities. With the extensive use of particle board and MDF in cabinets today, if the toe kick can keep water from a significant leak away from the carcass, it is saved for another day. Otherwise, base cabinets would be a complete loss.

The toe kick area can be utilized for storage. I did exactly this on a bathroom vanity copied from a Lowe's piece and built for just a fraction of what they wanted. The design gives almost 4" deeper drawer space than if the toe kick area was ignored.

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[David Larsen]

If nothing else, a sacrificial board that absorbs the kicks, mops, bumps, splashes, kids toys, and whatever else smacks into them without jeopardizing the cabinet.

Also allows for shimming and leveling under each individual cabinet and then being able to cover it with a toe kick board to tie it all together and cover it up.

Toe kick board can be scribed to compensate for any discrepancies in the flooring.

Doubles as baseboard in the area butting the cabinets.

Women with high heels that have that extra dead space in front of their toes within the shoe so that they can get closer to the cupboard.

A good place to trap debris that floats around on your floor in-between cleanings.

Usually an open area just under the cabinet above the toe kick that allows for ventilation of the underside of the cabinet so it doesn't trap air / humidity.

Allows for area under the cabinet to run water lines for refrigerator water lines, diswasher, R/O system, and or electric.

Allows for area under the cabinet to run a heat vent.

[Jamie Buxton]

The traditional argument for toekicks is that they provide a place for your toes. However, my bench in the shop has no toekick. It just goes straight down to the floor. I spend a lot of time in front of that bench, and I never notice that I'm kicking it. One explanation might be that people have different work habits.

If you have an operational kitchen, you might try an experiment. Block off the toekick area with scrap wood or something, and watch for a week or two to see if you kick it.

[Chris Tsutsui]

If your countertop is deep then a toe kick helps with the reach.

Also if you're lifting a heavy object from the countertop, then I also like a toe kick to bring my footing closer to that object with less reaching.

Toekicks also ads an aesthetic to the cabinet, and raises the lowest drawer or door from the ground about 4" or so making it less of a reach down.

[Josiah Bartlett]

As someone who has size 15 feet, I like toekicks.

Also, since I don't have a dog I need a place to kick spilled macaroni out of view when I'm alone in the kitchen.

[John TenEyck]

There is a relationship between the countertop overhang and the required depth of the toe kick in order to work comfortably. If the countertop overhangs the cabinet sufficiently, no toe kick is needed. But that leads to visual and access problems for the drawers and inside of the cabinets with doors. Standard cabinet dimensions evolved to where they are based on the size of the average person and ease of use. If you're average in size, those dimensions are probably about right for you. If you are either larger or smaller in stature, then go ahead and adjust your cabinets accordingly. If you plan on selling your home at some point, it's probably a good idea to stick with something pretty close to standard dimensions.

[Peter Quinn]

Its a place for your toes. Or other peoples toes. Try the toe kick blocking idea, but do it barefoot, so you get the full impact. I spent decades in professional kitchens, working long days in hot places, and I can tell you that with work stations for that kind of work, standing at a cutting board, the stance required to do it properly, reaching to the back of a 24" deep counter to lift heavy objects or things filled with liquids, it really helps to have some toe space. I really hate the look of traditional toe kicks but you can make them very attractive much like furniture without much work. In fact most furniture pieces have four legs and toe space in their design, and that is not by accident either. I would not try to get that space back because frankly its pretty cheap rent; do you really want to bend that far down to retrieve items stored on the floor?

On my work bench the tasks are different, my stance is different, often askew or a bit leaned over, the height is in fact a bit lower than my counter tops, the tools are vastly different, and I doubt I would notice a lack of toe kicks, though I did include toe space if for no other reason than a place to kick failed wood working projects I'd rather not keep in view!

[Tony Bilello]

It is awkward working up close on the bench or counter top - there is no room for your feet unless you walk like Charlie Chaplin.
If you have tiny feet it may not be a problem, well, it might be. LOL
You can do away with toekicks if the top protrudes out more than normal.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Well, when you get older, it gets harder to bend that far over. The new dishwashers, for example, have very low decks - they've made the mechanicals very small now - and I don't like how far you have to bend over to put stuff in or take stuff out. I'm thinking of getting a drawer dishwasher for that very reason.

MikeThat is exactly why my dishwasher is mounted in our pantry wall. When you pull out bottom rack, it is level with bar. Been that way for over thirty years now. When we get older, we will really appreciate this feature.

[michael gates]

You will regret that, I built a kitchen for myself a few years back with furniture feet on it, which didnt allow for toe kicks because I thought it looked better. Never again you will kick the cabinets every time you walk up to them.

I also have a furniture base on my bathroom vanity in the house I am at now and the toe kick space is only 1 1/8 which I hit my toes on several times a week.

[Larry Edgerton]

There is a relationship between the countertop overhang and the required depth of the toe kick in order to work comfortably. If the countertop overhangs the cabinet sufficiently, no toe kick is needed. But that leads to visual and access problems for the drawers and inside of the cabinets with doors. Standard cabinet dimensions evolved to where they are based on the size of the average person and ease of use. If you're average in size, those dimensions are probably about right for you. If you are either larger or smaller in stature, then go ahead and adjust your cabinets accordingly. If you plan on selling your home at some point, it's probably a good idea to stick with something pretty close to standard dimensions.

Agreed: I have always tried to keep that relationship, countertop edge to toekick to 3 1/2". I have done cabinets without at owners request, and when you see them again after a couple of years the bases look like heck, toe marks all over them.

Feet need space too!

Larry

[Lewis Ehrhardt]

Thanks fellows for the input and the ideas. I do like the elevated dishwasher idea. The mop/dirt issue I hadn't thought about. When the macaroni was mentioned, now, that was the seller! Thanks. Toekick stays. Lewis

[Phil Thien]

Thanks fellows for the input and the ideas. I do like the elevated dishwasher idea. The mop/dirt issue I hadn't thought about. When the macaroni was mentioned, now, that was the seller! Thanks. Toekick stays. Lewis

When I do kitchen cabinets, I'm going to build a separate toe kick/riser "structure" with 1 x 4" strips of plywood, and then set cabinets sans the toe kicks on top of that. I've seen this done a number of times and it sure seems like: (1) It would make cabinet construction simpler/faster. (2) Installation may go a little faster if your floors are as out of whack as mine.

[Glen Blanchard]

When I do kitchen cabinets, I'm going to build a separate toe kick/riser "structure" with 1 x 4" strips of plywood, and then set cabinets sans the toe kicks on top of that.

Paint grade I assume, Phil?

[Mike Goetzke]

When I do kitchen cabinets, I'm going to build a separate toe kick/riser "structure" with 1 x 4" strips of plywood, and then set cabinets sans the toe kicks on top of that. I've seen this done a number of times and it sure seems like: (1) It would make cabinet construction simpler/faster. (2) Installation may go a little faster if your floors are as out of whack as mine.

Phil - I'm working on a large kitchen remodel for our house. I built all the cabinets with separate toe kicks. This is my first kitchen but it was very easy to level the toe kick frames front & rear. My large "L" of cabinets had a floor that was pretty level but my island had a slight slope in the floor. I was able to trim the toe kick frame bottoms to account for this and didn't even need shims.

Mike

[David Larsen]

When I do kitchen cabinets, I'm going to build a separate toe kick/riser "structure" with 1 x 4" strips of plywood, and then set cabinets sans the toe kicks on top of that. I've seen this done a number of times and it sure seems like: (1) It would make cabinet construction simpler/faster. (2) Installation may go a little faster if your floors are as out of whack as mine.

I don't see the advantage! I have built enough cabinets to know that the traditional way is pretty tried and true.

Shimming and trimming off the bottoms of a standard cabinet is pretty straight forward and easy enough to get level. When I am building the carcase of a cabinet I lay the bottom in a dado. That will happen whether I set it on a toe-kick base or not. It doesn't save a step.

How do you intend to address a finished side on an open end or where the range or fridge sets? Traditional cabinets have a side that runs from the floor to the top. Your plan will have a seam where the toe-kick structure ends and the cabinet begins.

[Glen Blanchard]

Your plan will have a seam where the toe-kick structure ends and the cabinet begins.

That’s what I was alluding to when I asked Phil if he was referring to doing this with paint grade cabinets. Wood fillers would eliminate any seam and render it invisible. However, stain grade is another matter. There would not only be the seam, but the lack of grain continuity. Or am I missing something?

[Tom Ewell]

Most toe kick drawer designs I've seen use a recessed drawer configuration that does not eliminate the toe space itself.

Design wise, many look like typical toe kick finishes, some even to the point of being that old black stuff with just a hand grab or diminutive pull used to open.

It's certainly workable but keep in mind the abuse of the location and just leave the fancy hard to clean face elements above the toe space.

[Erik Christensen]

I use these for toe-kick functionality - http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020983/23367/Cabinet-Leg-Levelers-Pair.aspx

4 legs on a base cabinet section supports 1,000#, you can level on pretty much any floor, you can have a toe kick that is removable for access (water removal if you have a leak, plumbing access, cleaning, etc.), you can change the toe kick any time - I just went from a wood kick in my wife's office to one that had leftover floor tiles glued on which she really likes the looks of

[David Prince]

I would put a shallow drawer in the toe kick and then I would have more places to put all the money I make doing woodworking! LOL :D

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I use these for toe-kick functionality - http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2020983/23367/Cabinet-Leg-Levelers-Pair.aspx

4 legs on a base cabinet section supports 1,000#, you can level on pretty much any floor, you can have a toe kick that is removable for access (water removal if you have a leak, plumbing access, cleaning, etc.), you can change the toe kick any time - I just went from a wood kick in my wife's office to one that had leftover floor tiles glued on which she really likes the looks of

I purchased a mess of those online, don't remember where. Used them on a new cabinet I am building in the basement. The floor is very much not flat, but, with these, I have a perfectly flat base and it took very little time to accomplish. I am sold!

[Alan Schaffter]

Bathroom toe kick for little and "BIG" people - a place to put a pull-out child's step or a place to hide a roll out scale.

[Joe Spear]

When I made my kitchen cabinets last year, instead of a simple board across the toe kick, I did the shallow drawer. I made boxes 3 1/2" high x the depth and width of the space under the cabinet. I put handles on the front and roller ball casters under the four corners, so the drawers can just slide out when you put in or take out towels, machine manuals, or whatever else will fit in a drawer that shallow. They are not connected to the cabinets, but just roll under them.

[Jay Allen]

I work in a cabinet shop that serves mostly commercial clients and we have done the seperate toe-kick style for many years. Most of these are flat-door, either laminate or veneer, for the "clean" euro look.
There are several advantages to this type of building. One is in installation. When you install dozens of boxes in several rooms....anything that speeds/eases installs is great. Another is in material usage. When you eliminate the extra 4" from the height of the sides, you can get 6 sides out of a single 4'x 8' sheet, rather than 4.

[Phil Thien]

That’s what I was alluding to when I asked Phil if he was referring to doing this with paint grade cabinets. Wood fillers would eliminate any seam and render it invisible. However, stain grade is another matter. There would not only be the seam, but the lack of grain continuity. Or am I missing something?

The jobs I've seen where this has been done have a piece of matching (species) base that wraps from the toe kick area around the side of the cabinet. I even saw one install where it wrapped, as a base, around the entire kitchen. It looked very sharp.

[fRED mCnEILL]

When I renoed our kitchen a few years ago I put in toe kick drawers. There are fairly shallow drawers that my wife uses for large flat items like large pot lids etc. She likes them and because they are recessed, don't get scuffed.

[Larry Edgerton]

I work in a cabinet shop that serves mostly commercial clients and we have done the seperate toe-kick style for many years. Most of these are flat-door, either laminate or veneer, for the "clean" euro look.
There are several advantages to this type of building. One is in installation. When you install dozens of boxes in several rooms....anything that speeds/eases installs is great. Another is in material usage. When you eliminate the extra 4" from the height of the sides, you can get 6 sides out of a single 4'x 8' sheet, rather than 4.

I used adjustable plastic feet with clip on toe kicks for the same reasons. At the corners I screw on blocks on the bottom of the boxes for a solid fastener. I do a lot of work in historic homes, and the floors are never level. This makes life much easier, and if something needs to be run such as a wire in the future it is a snap to get the kicks off. The ones I use are adjustable from inside the cabinet, so I slid them together and in no time they are where they need to be. I have never had a problem with these, they will hold way more weight than any cabinet will ever see.

In my new house my toe kicks will be 4 1/2 inches tall, no storage. I do not want to bend down that far. Plus with 10'4" ceilings it will look appropriate.

Larry

[Jim Finn]

That is exactly why my dishwasher is mounted in our pantry wall. When you pull out bottom rack, it is level with bar. Been that way for over thirty years now. When we get older, we will really appreciate this feature.
This is why I raised up our clothes dryer about 8". Saves a lot of bending.

[Jim Becker]

Whether or not one's toes come into play isn't really as much of an issue as shadow lines and the practical things that folks have mentioned.

I will say this...I don't cut out toe-kicks from cabinet sides. Rather, I build the "toe kick" area as an independent platform that is installed first. Once it's level, I install the cabinet boxes...which are then simple boxes...on top of that platform. If the surface is uneven, the platform can be roughed in and have a scribed face of 1/2" material fastened on before placing the cabinets.