Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos

[Johnny Kleso]

I just finished watching the David Charlesworth and Rob Cosman Planing Sharpening and Chiseling videos..

IMHO Charlesworth is the man, I have always loved his books and lucky enough to convesre with him by email as well..

That really buged me about Cosman is he gives you a time as to how long he things it will take you to flatten a back or sharpen a bevel.. Not that he says to shapen till you get the correct scratch pattern on the iron..

Charlesworth is way over the top I feel in his methods but like that he is so meticulous about his methods..

I am wondering if anyone how as seen both feels the opposite??

[Mark Baldwin III]

I have the Charlesworth chisel video and love it. He and Mr. Kingshott are my two favorites to watch. I have never watched one of Cosman's DVD's. Not to sound mean, or detract from his skills, but he comes off so arrogant that I couldn't imagine watching for a whole hour.
Mr. Charlesworth, on the other hand, has such a pleasant demeanor that I can't help but like him. Same with Mr. Kingshott.

[Andrew Arndts]

IMHO, Cosman is in it for the money. hence no heart or soul.
Charlesworth is in it for the EDUCATION... Hence he cares that ones working
experience being a positive in ones life.

[Gary Hodgin]

I have videos of both and think I learned something from them. I agree that Charlesworth's are more educational. I really like the detail he goes into. I also have several Jim Kingshott videos that I think are as good as any. He's educational, entertaining, and inspirational.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Kingshott rules. I've watched one Cosman dvd, a two-dvd set on making a precision fit drawer (LN doesn't seem to carry his dvd's any more); and it was OK, but too long, thus expensive, and his dovetailing method too fiddly for me, may be great for beginners. I think I'd give him credit for workable methods and a certain completeness. I've read a Charlesworth book, which was very good, but he's gotten too much attention for that ruler trick, anathema for this Japanese tool user (even David agrees).

Pam

[Jim Barrett]

I have never watched one of Cosman's DVD's. Not to sound mean, or detract from his skills, but he comes off so arrogant that I couldn't imagine watching for a whole hour.


Mark,
Too bad you feel that way...you are really missing out on some great videos. Rob is an excellent instructor and really a nice guy.

Jim

[jamie shard]

Charlesworth is over the top, but there is such a density of ideas. I really like the Charlesworth chisel video and planing video and the 5 techniques for furniture making. (Haven't watched the sharpening one.)

The Cosman drawer making video is excellent, lots of details on dovetailing and drawer fitting. It's the best one I've seen by him.

Those four are really good. I watch them every other month or so.

Is it mean to say that I'd like to see them both get drunk and argue who was a better woodworker? Probably, but that would be fun. :D

(Which Kingshott video(s) would folks recommend, if they had to choose one or two?)

[Pam Niedermayer]

...(Which Kingshott video(s) would folks recommend, if they had to choose one or two?)

Mortise & Tenons and Dovetails.

Pam

[Gary Hodgin]

(Which Kingshott video(s) would folks recommend, if they had to choose one or two?)

I think the Mortise & Tenons and Dovetails are very good, but so is his Bench Planes video. The Bench Plane video was invaluable to me when I was learning to use hand planes. Great for a beginner.

I also have his Sharpening and Specialty Planes videos. The latter two are not quite as good as the other three. There are better Sharpening videos. Craftsman's Studio has a pretty good deal on a package ($60) that includes everything but the Sharpening. Never ordered from the place and there may be better deals out there but this seemed reasonable.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/S28-96.htm

[Mark Baldwin III]

(Which Kingshott video(s) would folks recommend, if they had to choose one or two?)
I have the basic handplane and DT videos. They are both excellent. I'd like to get my hands on a few of his books and some of the other DVD's one of these days. His handplane DVD was the one I got when I first wanted to learn about planes and get into woodworking.
On nights when I don't feel like working on bikes or wood, I'll usually put on a Kingshott or Charlesworth vid instead of a movie.

[Ed Looney]

IMHO, Cosman is in it for the money. hence no heart or soul.
Charlesworth is in it for the EDUCATION... Hence he cares that ones working
experience being a positive in ones life.

Shouldn't we support the success of anyone who promotes woodworking and educates people in the art of craftsmanship? Lets not turn this into a bunch of crabs in a bucket.

Ed

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Crab mentality, sometimes referred to as crabs in the bucket. " The metaphor refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless "king of the hill" competition (or sabotage) which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise. The analogy in human behavior is that of a group that will attempt to "pull down" (negate or diminish the importance of) any member who achieves success beyond the others, out of jealousy, conspiracy or competitive feelings.

[john brenton]

Nobody likes to feel like a greenhorn, and maybe Cosman makes people feel that way? He does have a line of tools to sell as well as others to promote, so of course that element is there and there's nothing wrong with that. Everyone is trying to cash in wherever "it" can be cashed in. Its what makes the world go round. I just don't like his face, but maybe I'm just jealous of his success, and, well, his better looking face.

I personally enjoy the hell out of Frank Klausz. He reminds me of some of the old journeyman I worked with in the trades, and his methods are sound.

[David Weaver]

Different styles.

I have gotten something out of all of the videos that I've watched, cosman or charlesworth. I never took sharpening seriously because before I ever tried it, I got the charlesworth video, followed it to a T and had a sharp edge the first time. It is such an advantage in this era to be able to get a video, pick up a tool, and make it sharp without having to do anything other than spend $20-$25 on a DVD.

I still use the method charlesworth shows on his videos when I sharpen my thin-ironed smoothers. It works perfectly every time, and with a couple of mechanical stops, it doesn't take long to use it.

I don't so much like videos that have commentary. I don't mind time in the videos where there is no noise but the tools, actually i kind of like it. Different people like different things, some folks probably think Charlesworth videos are sleepers - when I first started woodworking and got those videos, my wife groaned every time I put one in to watch. If she was in the room doing anything, she would fall asleep.

Of all the guys, though, that I would've liked to spend a day in their shop, I would choose Kingshott. He seemed like an interesting guy, and patternmakers work always seemed a little more interesting to me than furniture.

[jamie shard]

I have gotten something out of all of the videos that I've watched, cosman or charlesworth.

[...]

I don't so much like videos that have commentary. I don't mind time in the videos where there is no noise but the tools, actually i kind of like it.


Agree! If you are a beginner like myself, any of these videos are a big shortcut.

The best ones really show, not describe, and have lots of close-ups to show what the desired result is supposed to be.

[David Weaver]

The best ones really show, not describe, and have lots of close-ups to show what the desired result is supposed to be.

Lie Nielsen has really raised the bar for the lighting and filmwork in their videos. It's really superb quality, and the camera is right where you want to see. They probably do quite a bit of work to get it that way.

[Terry Beadle]

Both David Charlesworth and Jim Kingshott have very good dvd/VHS videos. If forced to choose between the two, Mr. Charlesworth gets my vote hands down. Why?..you may ask? He's a better teacher. Lucky for us they are both good teachers. However, Mr. Charlesworth goes into the explaination of his thinking behind his techniques in a very clear and practical way. This is to be expected as Mr. Charlesworth has many years teaching experience. Like all good teachers, they learn from their students as much as they teach them. I will say Mr. Charlesworth some times gets over the top in some commentary but it needs to be there to stick in my tired old brain I think.

I really learned planes and sharpening techniques from Mr. Kingshott so I'll always be grateful for his giving and charming lessons. I still watch his videos on my VHS ( yes...it still works ) and learn again things that I've not noticed before. Good videos are like that. DC's videos are the same way. For myself, David Charlesworth's videos on plane blade sharpening and the one on using chisels are the best of all the 50 or so video's I've bought over the years. They have really helped improve my work and results. For the cost of a video, that's a big bargain and appeals to my Scottish tendencies.

We are blessed with lots of choices in videos today. Tage Frid, Tom Law, and others come to mind when I think of what one can learn in your own living room cheaply. Mr. Christopher Schwarz also comes to mind with his wit and perspectives. They are all helping wood working and enriching our lives tremendously and I thank them.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I would like to give you folks what our local group, The Guild of NH Woodworkers, takes as an article of faith. EVERY WOODWORKER WHETHER BEGINNER OR EXPERT HAS BOTH SOMETHING TO TEACH, AND SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM OTHERS.

Perceptions of good, indifferent, detailed, or arrogant are all exactly that....perceptions. We all look at things from our own unique perspective which is colored by personal experience and by how we personally relate to people. Another point to consider in "rating" a video is our own personal learning style. People learn in 3 very different ways, watching a demo, reading about the subject, or by actually performing the task. In each of us one of these 3 methods is dominant. How you like or dislike a particular personality and or a particular video will depend on your learning style. Don't forget that though one of these 3 styles of learning is dominant, we all learn from all 3 methods in varying degrees.

The bottom line is that each video by each producer will appeal to different folks and for very different reasons.

Let's try to keep this discussion on a positive tone.

[Jim Koepke]

EVERY WOODWORKER WHETHER BEGINNER OR EXPERT HAS BOTH SOMETHING TO TEACH, AND SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM OTHERS.

This is very true. It is also the reason I am happy to help other wood workers learn a technique or processes they find difficult. Each one of them has opened my eyes to seeing things a different way. Some have shed light on my own weaknesses.

"When one teaches, two learn." Robert Heinlein

I have been reading this thread, but have not commented until now. My own curiosity will cause me to read every article or view any video I can find on a subject of my interests. Almost everyone has been able to impart some knowledge. No matter how small that piece of the puzzle may be, it is still helpful in completing the picture.

Even those who may ruffle my feathers can teach me something.

jtk

[Ed Looney]

I appreciate those who recommended some of the sources mentioned. I plan on purchasing some of these simply because I believe I can learn something form all of these craftsmen. I was taught how to sharpen tools and cut dovetails by Rob Cosman. The best lesson I learned was if you want to do good work use good tools. That goes for sharpening tools or cutting dovetails. A good saw will allow you to make the joint from saw cut to saw cut and you can skip most of the paring. These principles equally apply to chisels. A good chisel will stay sharper longer and fit comfortably in your hand. It will also take the abuse of chopping out the waste and a good set of stones will allow you to produce that razor sharp cutting edge quickly.

Just this week I was able to complete a tools project I have been working on for way to long. It took a while to purchase and fettle in these tools but my dovetail kit is finally completed. All of the chisels are polished on Shapton stones to mirror finish on the backs. A work sharp station with a honing guide was used to set the primary angles. The final bevels were polished to a 30000 finish. They are all sharp enough to shave with. Please do not count Rob Cosman out when it comes to sharpening, he does a good job of coaching this as well.

Ed Looney

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I was taught how to sharpen tools and cut dovetails by Rob Cosman. The best lesson I learned was if you want to do good work use good tools....

This alludes to my one major complaint about Rob's teaching methods. Granted, good tools are good, no question; but when he touts whatever tools he's selling as being the "best" tools, I have problems. When all his students exit from class and start posting on the boards about the "best" tools they've been using this past week, I have problems. So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Pam

[Jay Maiers]

I just watched the Kingshott dovetail video. As an absolute beginner, I think I'd prefer a little more commentary and background info. One thing I was hoping for was a little more saw instruction; where to place the saw, initial angle of attack, posture / body position, tips for keeping the saw on track, etc. Then again, I guess that's information that I should be getting through saw instruction and not from a dovetail video ;)

I'm glad I bought it and I'll no doubt watch it again. Unfortunately, it's a step ahead of my skills right now. I think I need to focus on a few different fundamentals before I'm ready to apply his methods.

[Jim Neeley]

I've read a number of posts in this thread and finally am going to respond.

I am the "greenhorn" of which some of you speak. While I have long worked with power tools and have a very well equipped shop, I'm new to the Neander world.

I have no connection with Rob Cosman beyond having purchased and viewed a number of his DVDs but I believe there's a few things that, based on the posts, people must be uninformed about.

I ordered 3 of Rob's videos and, while waiting for their arrival, emailed him a question on Chisel selections, products he does not sell. Rob responded with a long (most of a typed page) explanation on different types of chisels, steel types, and some of the trade-offs between different manufacturers products. His response was clearly personal, as he went into depth comparing and contrasting the two brands of chisels I was considering.

Despite some posts to the contrary, Rob is very down-to-earth in his videos, talking about how "anyone, with practice and good tools, can do what I do". He demonstrates and explains the processes in such a way that the "greenhorn" feels inspired to give it a try.

In my opinion and based my email, viewing the 8 of his videos I've purchased to date, and talking with several people who have taken his classes, Rob is anything but "heartless" or "egotistical".

Johnny, I too wish Rob would give more information on the scratch pattern but, for us "greenhorns" a rough time duration reference is very helpful. I know that in my first venture into "scary sharp" about 10 years ago, only having read about scratch patterns and having no one to tell me I'd gotten there, I spent about 30 minutes on each of the 6 grits I used. It would have been more helpful to have been told "after the first grit, you should spend 2 to 3 (or whatever number of) minutes on each grit" and get a general idea of what to do on the scratch pattern than to just provide the latter.

Anyway, just $0.02 from a "greenhorn"...

[Johnny Kleso]

Jim,
I fell giving times is very wrong.. You have to sharpen till its sharp.. I hhave read many posts of people saying they did this for X amount of time and its still not sharp.. You have to know exactly what you need to do and time has nothing to do with it..

IE: Sharpening a brand new LN chisel vs and very old chisel that has opened paint cans for the last 20 years or even a brand new china made beater as two very differnt times..

In sharpening yoou need an eye loup to see what your doing..
Know what your looking for..
To know how to feel for the burr that forms when the two edges meet..

[Jim Neeley]

Johnny,

I agree wholeheartedly that you have to sharpen until it is sharp... and time alone doesn't dictate that. As I've learned from you wise folks here, for example, sharpening A-2 is very different than O-1.

I also experienced this when I got some new L-N's... both when I moved from sharpening with my old Marples and Olympias as well as the difference between sharpening the A-2 and O-1 L-N's. :<g>

Still, after being told about the scratch patterns it would have been nice to have heard a "generally about XXX to YYY minutes for this grit", as XXX would most likely have been way less than 30, assuming the bevel is set and the edge not dinged! :D

[Ed Looney]

This alludes to my one major complaint about Rob's teaching methods. Granted, good tools are good, no question; but when he touts whatever tools he's selling as being the "best" tools, I have problems. When all his students exit from class and start posting on the boards about the "best" tools they've been using this past week, I have problems. So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Pam

Pam
Take note of the brand of chisels in the pictures. There are two different brands in the pictures and Rob sells none of them. So I am inclined to ask what is the basis of your complaint about Rob's methods. Rob simply told us to buy the best you can afford because it is cheaper to buy good once than finding out cheep isn't good enough and the having to buy again.

Ed

[Bob Jones]

The cosman videos were my first chance to learn about hand tools by watching someone use them rather than just reading about using them. I really enjoyed each one and learned alot about woodworking from them. They inspired me to learn to cut joinery by hand because he made it look possible. I highly recommend each of his videos. Sure, he has opinions, but what passionate person does not? I like learning from decisive people because they get right to the point. :)

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I agree with Dave Anderson.

For those of us who have day jobs, and only have limited time to enjoy this great pastime of woodworking, I think it is a boon to have wonderful teachers like the three that have been mentioned here. I've read books, watched DVD's and purused their online offerings -- the all of them. I enjoy each one and hope to one day get to take a lesson from ANY of them! I've had the pleasure of taking a class from Andy Rae, Roland Johnson, Scott Phillips and some others and, while different, each class was great fun!

This crap about one person being "arrogant" is way off the mark.

Keep up the good work all of you.

[john brenton]

Jim N,

I'm the one who said "greenhorn", and I hope it didn't come across as me sounding like I think I'm some kind of seasoned professional...I'm anything but. I'm sure any one of us could learn oodles of tips and tricks from Cosman, and I doubt any of us realize how much he and others have contributed to what we know. I always disparaged the FWW world and the whole "secrets and mysteries" crowd, but that's just because I'm critical and cynical. Its a character flaw. I'm quite sure that a great many of us would be up a creek (no pun intended) if it were not for their contributions.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam
Take note of the brand of chisels in the pictures. There are two different brands in the pictures and Rob sells none of them. So I am inclined to ask what is the basis of your complaint about Rob's methods. Rob simply told us to buy the best you can afford because it is cheaper to buy good once than finding out cheep isn't good enough and the having to buy again.

Well, that's now, Ed; but in 2004-09 or so he was selling LN chisels and planes and stuff. I stand by what I said. Now maybe I'd need to forget all this stuff, except that even when I compliment Rob on his drawer video, he doesn't notice. And then there's that bit about reliving history.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Sorry, Rob, but it hasn't been 10 years. This all started in late spring 2004, when on WC we had the honor of hosting one of your precious newbies, who not only proclaimed the "best" status of LN chisels (wonder where that came from?); but then proceded to attack anyone who didn't agree. And then a few of his minions joined in on the chorus. This went on for some weeks, and so far I've only mentioned it maybe 3 or 4 times; so I figure there's more entertainment due. Oh, yeah, and then he started in proclaiming Lance Armstrong and bicycling and other stuff that didn't belong on WC.

Pam

[Jim Neeley]

OK.. I've watched Rob's videos and like how he teaches.. so I guess that makes me a "precious newby" ...oh yea, and "relatively ignorant" as well...

Pam... Thank you for the patronizing disdain. I wasn't on WC (whatever that was) but you've made your feelings towards "precious newbies and their minions" eminently clear.

[Ed Looney]

Pam
With all due respect I don't care about 2004-09 this is 2011 and I personally don't wish to have one of my posts used to grind your axe.
I also think it unfair to judge the teacher by the behavior of a student. If things were turned around and the shoe was on the other foot I don' t think you would appreciate being held responsible for another persons actions.
Now can we get on with improving our woodworking skills? Life is to short and I would like to to focus on developing craftsmanship.

Ed Looney

[Johnny Kleso]

If I had to buy chisels all over again, I would say buy the LN's ..

Who makes a better chisel for a newbie?

[Josh Rudolph]

Who makes a better chisel for a newbie?

Johnny,

I recently purchased the LN's and love them. When looking, I considered the Blue Spruce offerings which are gorgeous, but out of my price range. Heck the LN's were too, but I finally talked myself into them. The Ashley Iles offered at tools for working wood are also purported to be nice.

I was able to put my hands on each at WIA. I wanted socket as opposed to tang so that ruled out the AI's.

If I had it to do over again....I would likely buy the LN's again.

Josh

[Jay Maiers]

If I had to buy chisels all over again, I would say buy the LN's ..

Who makes a better chisel for a newbie?

Lol. I'm still happy with my 15 year old set of Marples Blue Chips. While they don't hold an edge for as long as I would like, they sharpen up quite well.

...At least, they're sharp by my definition. :D I'm sure I'll change my mind on that after a while, but they'll do for now.

[David Weaver]

LN makes nice tools. Now that it's 2011, I would buy the O1 chisels, they'll be made like the old marples and the pre-modern stanleys, but a little harder than the stanleys.

BUT, they'll stand up at 25 degrees to general work if they're made right, and the A2s will to some extent, too, but likely not as well. It makes no sense to get a chisel that's harder to grind and has big carbides in it to have the edge be less durable.

I still have some A2 mortise chisels from LN, they are awfully tough for A2. Since getting RI chisels, I haven't gotten the A2 chisels out of the roll except to chop a couple of mortises with each when the RIs were new so I could compare the edge damage.

It is my opinion that if you are tight for money, it is worth your time to put together a loose diamond setup to grind out pitting, etc. LN chisels make sense for someone who has the money for them. To have to "save for a few months to get them", that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you're in the latter category, your tool dollar goes a lot farther with older tools or with learning to prepare or modify tools.

Same goes for saws and planes.

[John Tallyn]

Which color do you prefer, red, blue, green, or white, each of us have our own opinions, each of us are correct for what is best for us. I own all of David Charlesworth's videos, and two of Rob Cosman's, personally I prefer Charlesworth,s, but that is nothing more than a personal preference, I also have videos from Chris Scwartz and Frank Klaus, also excellent videos. Both are excellent in what they do, and to sit here an nitpick over whether one is arrogant, or one is better, does a disservice to both men. To call Rob Cosman "arrogant", just from watching a video strikes me as rather arrogant on it's face. If you don't know the man, don't judge him, and don't pass along gossip, most of us are long out of high school and should be well past derogatory statements about other woodworkers. Both men are professionals, and provide these videos as a service, but also to make a living, I certainly wouldn't turn down a chance to take a class from either, and I have no doubt would learn a great deal from each. Now, I have to order some other videos from Jim Klingshott, as I haven't seen any of his. Go ahead and slam me if you will for my statements, but they are nothing more then my personal beliefs.
Good Luck to all
John

[Johnny Kleso]

Hi John,
Since I started this thread I felt badly seeing what it turned into..
My feeling are pretty much yours with the name calling..
Always remember english is not everyones first language and very often the way you read a statemet may not be what was ment so write..
I hope that was the case with Rob being called arrogant..
I do hope people try to refrain any comments like that..

Which are the best videos and what do you like about them?

[george wilson]

I have never seen any of Rob's videos. However, I find it hard to believe that someone who gets into woodworking "for the money" has no real soul or interest. Woodworking is not a big money field to get into in the first place.

[Scott Stafford]

First of all, this is just my humble opinion.

I am very familiar with Rob Cosman's videos as well as David Charlesworth's DVD's. Rob Cosman's lesson will have you cutting dovetails in no time. (pretty will come with practice) David Charlesworth will show you how to cut the very finest of dovetails, but to start with David's methods may frustrate you. After you have the basics down, you can incorporate the Charlesworth fine nuances into your dovetails.

I would start with Rob Cosman's new Dovetails 2.0 DVD and also spend the extra to get the companion shop manual. It's great to have the manual with you at the workbench to refresh you on each step. Rob's teaching expertise extends to this manual. I think this will be your fastest route to actually cutting your own dovetails.

Best of luck,

Scott in Montana

[Jon van der Linden]

This alludes to my one major complaint about Rob's teaching methods. Granted, good tools are good, no question; but when he touts whatever tools he's selling as being the "best" tools, I have problems. When all his students exit from class and start posting on the boards about the "best" tools they've been using this past week, I have problems. So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Pam

There are always best tools. It's the best one you have or can make for the job. Let's face it, the best tools only help, while someone with real skill will produce superior results because they know how to accomplish the desired results with the tools rather than relying on them.

[Jon van der Linden]

Both Charlesworth and Cosman are great teachers and people can learn different things from each of them. Cosman learned a lot from Alan Peters, and I think most will agree that a small tip from someone like Alan can make a world of difference in their work. Charlesworth is very analytical in his approach and there are of course things one can pick up there as well. Too much has been made of his "ruler trick," which was originally intended as a way to turn a poor blade into something functional. Their methods and approaches are different, I wouldn't say either's dvds are "better" than the other. Like all things in woodworking, learn from both and use what's most suited to your own approach and skills.

[David Weaver]

Cosman learned a lot from Alan Peters

You mean like as an apprentice? I thought he learned woodworking in Utah.

Assuming that most of the people on here who have issues have them because of a video would be inaccurate. He seems like an alright guy to me, but I do recall prior posts here and elsewhere, and it isn't the videos that people are referring to.

As far as the ruler trick goes, I'm pretty sure cosman holds that in high regard, too. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better or faster way to remove the wear bevel from the back of the iron when the steel is hardened to a very high hardness like a lot of the more modern irons are. I would assume most non-professionals couldn't get an edge as sharp lapping the bevel, especially not as quickly, even on a flat new iron.

That's the one thing that Larry Williams always mentions, too, though not from the point of view of the ruler trick (IIRC). But from the standpoint that most of the time when he sees someone having trouble sharpening, it's because they are not getting the wear bevel taken care of on the back of an iron.

[Jon van der Linden]

You mean like as an apprentice? I thought he learned woodworking in Utah.

Assuming that most of the people on here who have issues have them because of a video would be inaccurate. He seems like an alright guy to me, but I do recall prior posts here and elsewhere, and it isn't the videos that people are referring to.

As far as the ruler trick goes, I'm pretty sure cosman holds that in high regard, too. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better or faster way to remove the wear bevel from the back of the iron when the steel is hardened to a very high hardness like a lot of the more modern irons are. I would assume most non-professionals couldn't get an edge as sharp lapping the bevel, especially not as quickly, even on a flat new iron.

That's the one thing that Larry Williams always mentions, too, though not from the point of view of the ruler trick (IIRC). But from the standpoint that most of the time when he sees someone having trouble sharpening, it's because they are not getting the wear bevel taken care of on the back of an iron.

David, he didn't "learn woodworking" from Alan Peters, but he did spend some time in his shop. Enough that there are some things in his videos that come from that experience and are worth knowing.

Obviously the ruler trick only works on planes... are you saying that it's not possible to sharpen a chisel because it's harder to lap? There are lots of reasons for and against the ruler trick, I just happen to be one of those that's tried it and find that the downsides outweigh the benefits for me. A person that can't get their tools sharp without it (assuming a good blade) needs to learn more about sharpening.

[David Weaver]

Chisels are narrower, and chisel backs have to be flat for some techniques. A little bit of belly can be tolerable as long as the edge isn't ruler tricked.

Sharpening an A2 plane iron 2 3/8th inches wide is an entirely different venture than sharpening a 3/4" chisel that has likely failed due to chipping of the edge and not due to wear along the back of the bevel as should be the case with a good quality plane iron.

The harder and wider the iron, the greater the benefit to the ruler trick. I do not do it on all of mine (especially on narrow or softer irons, and not on highly cambered irons where finish work isn't done to begin with). I do it on some, though. If not using the ruler trick, a good sharpener will learn to put finger pressure on an iron where the work needs to be done and be able to get as good of an edge without the ruler trick, but I would bet that 95% of beginners, probably more, will get a better edge on a plane, where the failure will be due to wear and the wear bevel will be longer and more pronounced than the back of a chisel that has ultimately failed due to chipping. This finger pressure over time will lead to some belly on a chisel, too, if the back isn't kept lapped properly.

The other issue is that while a chisel needs to be sharp, especially a paring chisel, it is likely not doing a finish show surface like a smoother iron might be. So for the

I would stick my neck out and say without question, a majority of more experienced users would also get a better edge (in terms of uniformity of complete sharpness every single time) with microbevels and a back bevel (the ruler trick). This is essentially what rob is doing, even though he doesn't advocate a guide. A good hollow grind will produce the same effect as a microbevel, but I think it's easier to relieve the edges accurately the way charlesworth does it - you just do it, you don't have to check - than it is on the third or fourth hone on a hollow grind.

Sharp is sharp no matter how you get there. There are only a few things to consider:
1) the size of the scratches
2) the uniformity (and direction) of the scratches at the edge on both sides of the bevel
3) the lack of any voids or chips
4) the bevel angle on the sharpened iron

Charlesworth's and Rob's methods are very good ways to make sure you control those things.

[Mark Baldwin III]

The most important lesson I took from Mr. Kingshott's DT video is sharpness, next is learning to saw. Neither are things he went into in that video, but he prompted me to find out the information. His planing video shows enough about sharpening a plane iron to get anyone started...from there, it's up to you to get to the next level. When I use a hand plane, I think about that video and try to remember the lesson.
Mr. Charlesworth's chisel video gave me lots of information that I'm sure will always be useful. I chopped my first mortices the other evening using the technique he demonstrated (even with the same chisel!) and I couldn't be happier. I have plenty more to learn from him and his methods.
Believe it or not, number three on my list of people I like to watch is Tommy Mac. I've seen just about all of his early podcasts and they definitely inspired me to try different things out. I rarely get a chance to watch his show, however.
Each of those gentlemen click with me. That's why I watch them. They have a certain humble factor that appeals to me.
I believe I was the one who brought up the "arrogant" word. That's my opinion. Rob is definitely skilled, and a lot of people have learned a great deal from him. Our personalities just don't mesh, so I don't watch his stuff, and I was simply stating that. -hoping I didn't just start the argument again with this comment

[Jon van der Linden]

I think you're leaving out some very significant things. Bevel up planes are very close to their relief angle, and a cutter needs a certain clearance on the backside to perform effectively. Creating any bevel on the relief side of a bevel up blade creates an unsuitable geometry and greater wear problem on that side. If for any reason you want to get rid of a micro bevel you have to remove a lot more material to get to a sharp edge than you otherwise would.

A micro bevel on the flat side of the blade means that you can't strop the blade. Most of my sharpening is done on my finest stones or a strop. Because the blades are maintained at their sharpest while in use, there's no more work involved, and it's very quick. I can understand that some are daunted by the preparation of a wide A2 blade, since it does take a loooong time! Once done, if it's maintained properly after its initial conditioning, it really doesn't take more time to keep it there than any other method, at least for me.

There's a lot of variance in how people do things as individuals and sometimes it's almost impossible for one person to duplicate what someone else is doing. Charlesworth's use of guides in his methods takes much of that out of the picture. As I said previously, he's very analytical, which is something I happen to like.

[Jon van der Linden]

Each of those gentlemen click with me. That's why I watch them. They have a certain humble factor that appeals to me.


One of the funniest things I've ever heard in a woodworking video was Kingshott (put on English accent here) saying "If you can't saw to a line, you aught to be practicin' sawin', NOT making dovetails!":D

[george wilson]

I have been doing the ruler trick without the ruler for at least 55 years.:)

[David Weaver]

I think a ruler trick makes a lot of sense on a BU plane, because the difference between 12 degrees and 10 degrees of relief isn't a lot, effectively in use, I don't know that I'd notice it. Larry Williams has made a lot of good points on this forum and others about relief, and I don't recall what he called adequate relief, but it was more like 20.

It depends on what ruler you use (I don't use BU planes much, i used to a lot, but i don't much now). Someone I know who is a fanatic of charlesworth's videos watched the video and then gave me a couple of 1/2 mm starrett feelers. I don't think i've ever backbevel any BU plane iron, but I wouldn't be afraid to. Maybe I have. You have to be sparing when you use the ruler trick to keep from having the problem you've mentioned - chasing it back too far and just making a large backbevel with a thick chord.

I'm not sure why you feel that you can't strop an iron with a microbevel.

As far as prep of an iron, that's different than maintenance honing. I don't feel like it's very difficult to flatten any iron, unless they are horribly out of flat or made of high speed steel and significantly out of flat. A2 included. It is a different process, though, if you have an iron holder and very quick. However, starting with using a medium stone and finger pressure, I do recall that and I can remember spending 30 minutes or more preparing a hock a2 iron from new, as well as the old LNs. Build a cheap (free) holder and those days are long gone.

[Mark Baldwin III]

One of the funniest things I've ever heard in a woodworking video was Kingshott (put on English accent here) saying "If you can't saw to a line, you aught to be practicin' sawin', NOT making dovetails!":D

The first thing I did after that was draw a bunch of lines on a board and try to saw to them. He has a gem or two in each video. My sawing is getting better though! I thought of that very line when watching the Charlesworth video when he said, "my hand sawing is not particularly good." But he has a band saw, and I don't...so I have to practice those straight hand cuts!

[john davey]

I own several of Robs dvd's and have learned from every one of them. I also own several of Charlseworths and have learned from them as well. They both make money doing this as they should. I have to be honest. Whoever Pam is this is not the first bitch and moan I have read from her and to be very honest I am sick of it. Give it a rest already. I like this place as I learn from it and most of the posters. Lets keep it that way..... Just my 2 cents.



Sorry, Rob, but it hasn't been 10 years. This all started in late spring 2004, when on WC we had the honor of hosting one of your precious newbies, who not only proclaimed the "best" status of LN chisels (wonder where that came from?); but then proceded to attack anyone who didn't agree. And then a few of his minions joined in on the chorus. This went on for some weeks, and so far I've only mentioned it maybe 3 or 4 times; so I figure there's more entertainment due. Oh, yeah, and then he started in proclaiming Lance Armstrong and bicycling and other stuff that didn't belong on WC.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

I own several of Robs dvd's and have learned from every one of them. I also own several of Charlseworths and have learned from them as well. They both make money doing this as they should. I have to be honest. Whoever Pam is this is not the first bitch and moan I have read from her and to be very honest I am sick of it. Give it a rest already. I like this place as I learn from it and most of the posters. Lets keep it that way..... Just my 2 cents.

Well, why don't you tell us how much you've learned from Rob C's posts here.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

OK.. I've watched Rob's videos and like how he teaches.. so I guess that makes me a "precious newby" ...oh yea, and "relatively ignorant" as well...

Pam... Thank you for the patronizing disdain. I wasn't on WC (whatever that was) but you've made your feelings towards "precious newbies and their minions" eminently clear.

I don't think it does. I was categorizing Rob C's student who, although new, felt qualified to tell all experienced woodworkers that LN chisels were the best, absolutely.

Now I often see people attracted by wealth and/or apparent fame (there's really not that much fame in woodworking, but...), they glom onto every word as gospel as long as that word is stated by a rich and/or famous person. There's no talking with them.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam
With all due respect I don't care about 2004-09 this is 2011 and I personally don't wish to have one of my posts used to grind your axe.
I also think it unfair to judge the teacher by the behavior of a student. If things were turned around and the shoe was on the other foot I don' t think you would appreciate being held responsible for another persons actions.
Now can we get on with improving our woodworking skills? Life is to short and I would like to to focus on developing craftsmanship.

Ed Looney

2009 isn't all that long ago. Life is too short, and I'd like to spend mine on woodworking, not watching dvd's without value for wherever I am on the skill continuum. Kingshott gave me the most knowledge for the time and money.

If I were to teach woodworking, I'd consider it my responsibility for the attitudes taken by students from my class, since I'd get to help shape said attitudes.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

There are always best tools. It's the best one you have or can make for the job. Let's face it, the best tools only help, while someone with real skill will produce superior results because they know how to accomplish the desired results with the tools rather than relying on them.

I agree that the best tools are tools, and are wielded according to the worker's skill; and, therefore, to say there's one set of "best" chisels is patently incorrect.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

I agree that the best tools are tools, and are wielded according to the worker's skill; and, therefore, to say there's one set of "best" chisels is patently incorrect.

Pam

I will second that train of thought. I have many different chisels of the same size and some of them are "best" for a specific task, more so than others that are "best" for a different specific task.

It may even be impossible to say there is one set that is the best value.

The chisel that gets used and will do the job the user requires it to do may be the best.

I think there are many different kinds of people and no matter how gracious a person may be to many, it is only human nature that they are likely to rub others the wrong way.

What some see as confidence, others may see as arrogance. In this case, that would be the same side of two different coins, just to turn a phrase around.

And that is what makes the world go 'round.

jtk

[Johnny Kleso]

Pam,


Seems you have an axe you have to grind about Rob..

Why not contact him directly and take it up with him and don’t drag my comments into your grievance with him..

I feel like my negative comment about Rob has made me part of your grievance with Rob.. I now feel like I have been dragged into being hyper critical about him and I feel like my comments have been used for fueling your grievance..

That is the farthest thing from my mind when I made the comment. I now feel Mr. Cosman sees me as a heckler and not just someone commenting on his teaching style..

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, is possible you can talk tools and not grip and complain and needle all the time??????????????????????
Seems your an expert at that and giving an opinion but I dont ever remember you doing anything other than that...
Have you ever made anything?????????????

Have you seen any of these videos and if yes which ones????
How about commenting on the videos your self.......
Not students from somme old post or tools of students..
You have an axe you have to grind... People are trying to give you a hint but looks like they need to drop a bomb on you before you get drift...
I know I am tired of you hi-jacking this thread, you seem to have only sour grapes, so go mash them elsewhere..........

Oh, Johnny, sure I'd be happy to not complain, when you boys start behaving. See, it's all these boys who make a mess and leave it for others to clean up that are the problems.

Yes, I've made plenty of stuff, started when I was 11 and needed a bookshelf. That was 53 years ago. Do I show it? No, not any more, I hate asking for praise.

And I don't know what people you're talking about, giving me all these hints. My email says otherwise.

And I've seen piles of woodworking videos, including, as I said, a two dvd set from Rob. Maybe if you'd read with more care you'd know that I recommended Kingshott, without qualification of any sort.

Pam

[Jim Neeley]

Pam,

Pam says...
"I've watched one Cosman dvd, a two-dvd set on making a precision fit drawer (LN doesn't seem to carry his dvd's any more); and it was OK, but too long, thus expensive, and his dovetailing method too fiddly for me, may be great for beginners. I think I'd give him credit for workable methods and a certain completeness."

then Pam says...
"Now maybe I'd need to forget all this stuff, except that even when I compliment Rob on his drawer video, he doesn't notice."

To paraphrase and excerpt from the movie "Princess Bride": "I don't think compliment means what you think it means!"

"Backhanded complements" are *not* compliments... They are snide remarks... as are:

Oh, Johnny, sure I'd be happy to not complain, when you boys start behaving. See, it's all these boys who make a mess and leave it for others to clean up that are the problems.


So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Well, why don't you tell us how much you've learned from Rob C's posts here.

If I were to teach woodworking, I'd consider it my responsibility for the attitudes taken by students from my class, since I'd get to help shape said attitudes.
Pam, I appreciate it when you provide your technical perspective to the pool of woodworking expertise here but...

Catty "Holier than Thou" behavior is catty "Holier than Thou" behavior, no matter who is doing it. I like the person, I just don't care for the behavior.

If you read this thread in its entirety, I think you'll see at least some of the others are echoing my thoughts. Please consider changing the behavior.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I am going to be polite and ask each person to go back and re-read their posts and eliminate the personal attacks and those which impugn motives and intentions.

No more of this will be tolerated and it will be edited viciously by me. Enough folks, play nice.

[Roger Bell]

I have to say that I am open to learning from anyone...even from one less skilled than I. In terms of professional teachers as these, as long as I can learn something of value, I am more than willing to tolerate a bit of "attitude" or other "personality" issues that might keep me from being "friends" with them. I have to say that I have learned a good bit from each of these teachers...and my understanding of the topic at hand becomes more refined each time I review one of their video demonstrations.

If I had the opportunity to apprentice with or engage in private lessons with only one of the choices shown, I would choose the late Mr. Kingshott. An old school craftsman if there ever was one.

[Johnny Kleso]

Roger,
I just finished watching Rob's dovetail video.. Was long as it was shot in one take with no edits so it was like being at a class...
He was explaining what he was doing to another person so it was more relaxed than say the Hand Plane /Sharpening video

In that video there is several takes and edits and Rob's has a image of himself between the takes, that might look a little cocky to some.. He is looking back over his shoulder.. I'm not sure where the attitude comes from but maybe this image or music has something to do with it..

I have now seen Rob's, David C's, Frank Klausz and Tag Frid's dovetailed drawer and Tag and Franks are much more free style on the fly with no measuring... Both of these guys learned there trade in the old school EU wood industry.. I like seeing both styles but Frank's is better (can I say better or best? or is there no such thing?).. Tag's is maybe 20 mins and has chisel sharpening and card scraper lesson all in the 20 or 30 mins of the video.. Nothing fancy all down and dirty with him..

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I have now seen Rob's, David C's, Frank Klausz and Tag Frid's dovetailed drawer and Tag and Franks are much more free style on the fly with no measuring... Both of these guys learned there trade in the old school EU wood industry.. I like seeing both styles but Frank's is better (can I say better or best? or is there no such thing?).. Tag's is maybe 20 mins and has chisel sharpening and card scraper lesson all in the 20 or 30 mins of the video.. Nothing fancy all down and dirty with him..

Frid's and Klausz's videos are wonderful; but I wasn't sure they were available in dvd versions. I'm of the same school, but self-taught. Once I realized the implications of marking from the already cut end, the whole world of freehand dovetails opened up. This was some 30 years ago. It was a blast seeing the experts doing the same thing.

Pam

[jamie shard]

This is the most ambitious thread ever. Started off with woodworking personalities, moved to back bevels and sharpening, and now we're getting into tails vs. pins first!

[Steve Branam]

I don't so much like videos that have commentary. I don't mind time in the videos where there is no noise but the tools, actually i kind of like it. Different people like different things, some folks probably think Charlesworth videos are sleepers - when I first started woodworking and got those videos, my wife groaned every time I put one in to watch. If she was in the room doing anything, she would fall asleep.


My wife and I have come to an agreement. She now encourages me to buy all the woodworking videos I want, the longer the better. My side of the bargain is that when I put the video in, she lies down on the couch and I give her a foot rub or scalp massage while I watch. Her falling asleep means I've done my part! :D

[Eugenio Musto]

I bought all Cosman's DVDs and several Charlesworth's DVDs and i can say that i learn a lot of things from both.
The feature that i like in Cosman's DVDs is that Rob speak slowly and shows every things that he says and this is very important for people like me who don't know english very well.They are practical videos so after one or two views I can already take the tool in the hand and work.
David Charlesworth's DVDs are also excellent, i memorize the Hand Planing and Plane Sharpening DVDs and i learn to camber a blade thanks to him.
So,to sum up, i think that they are complementary.

[Ed Looney]

I just happen to be one of those that's tried it and find that the downsides outweigh the benefits for me. A person that can't get their tools sharp without it (assuming a good blade) needs to learn more about sharpening.

Jon
My background is in machining where we productively cut extremely hard and abrasive materials. To strengthen a cutting edge a small bevel, .001" to .002" wide at a higher angle is introduced. Much like the ruler trick. In addition to the polishing of the cutting edge it also strengthens the edge. I understand that some will insist that metal working is different than working with wood and I will agree to the extent that one does not ignore the similarities. To ignore the similarities would put at risk beneficial knowledge.

PS Try the ruler trick by going to a finer grit stone to get that final polish.

Ed

[Jim Neeley]

Now there's a deal, Steve... Now if there's only a way to wrap that into covering every new tool you want too! :D

[john brenton]

I don't see why you can't strop a micro-bevel either. With light pressure you can feel what you're doing, and unless you're doing something horribly wrong you won't damage the edge.

I recently tried to restore a very old wooden rebate plane (somehow there was pieces of metal imbedded in the wooden body and jacked up my favorite woody's sole and iron!!! :eek::mad: What in the hell was that stuff!!), but anywho, the back of the very thick and nice skewed iron was bellied like crazy. I gave it a go on the x-coarse diamond but could see I was going to waste a whole bunch of stone life on this thing. I used the side of the grinder wheel and it was a snap. Just a minute or so followed by a quick swipe on the stone and it was done. Yes, the steel is significantly softer than modern irons, but I'm sure we have all had irons so bellied that flattening by hand just makes no sense. The time, the damage to the stone, etc.

Again, I'm sure using the side of the stone is extremely dangerous, as if it were to crack it would send stone flying everywhere at super high speeds. I use a face mask, and am very delicate with the wheel.



I'm not sure why you feel that you can't strop an iron with a microbevel.

As far as prep of an iron, that's different than maintenance honing. I don't feel like it's very difficult to flatten any iron, unless they are horribly out of flat or made of high speed steel and significantly out of flat. A2 included. It is a different process, though, if you have an iron holder and very quick. However, starting with using a medium stone and finger pressure, I do recall that and I can remember spending 30 minutes or more preparing a hock a2 iron from new, as well as the old LNs. Build a cheap (free) holder and those days are long gone.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

. . . I recently tried to restore a very old wooden rebate plane . . .
. . . anywho, the back of the very thick and nice skewed iron was bellied like crazy. I gave it a go on the x-coarse diamond but could see I was going to waste a whole bunch of stone life on this thing. I used the side of the grinder wheel and it was a snap. Just a minute or so followed by a quick swipe on the stone and it was done. Yes, the steel is significantly softer than modern irons, but I'm sure we have all had irons so bellied that flattening by hand just makes no sense. The time, the damage to the stone, etc.

Again, I'm sure using the side of the stone is extremely dangerous, as if it were to crack it would send stone flying everywhere at super high speeds. I use a face mask, and am very delicate with the wheel.


By bellied, I assume you mean convex, so the back of the iron would rock on the stone.

I've had an old wide skewed rabbet/filletster plane blade like that. I used a trick that I picked up from Garrett Hack's book; chuck up one of those little grinding stones in a power drill (the little ones with the built in arbor, I think the one I had was a couple inches in diameter?) and use that to grind a hollow in the center of the back of the blade. Staying away from the cutting edge and the sides, of course. I initially ground away just enough to let the blade rest on a couple of places, so it wouldn't rock. Just carefully went back and forth between lapping and grinding to have a good idea of what was going on.

If lapping is still taking to long, and I don't want to grind the tip to get to the point where things are lapped, it can be a helpful way to speed the lapping process if you're careful. I suppose you could even grind a hollow, but I wouldn't trust myself to do that this way.

[john brenton]

That's a good tip, and I may thank you one day when I use it. I don't know though...I sure love the way the back looks off the side of the stone...it has that nice little factory grind looking quarter-swirl. Sweeter than yoohoo.


By bellied, I assume you mean convex, so the back of the iron would rock on the stone.

I've had an old wide skewed rabbet/filletster plane blade like that. I used a trick that I picked up from Garrett Hack's book; chuck up one of those little grinding stones in a power drill (the little ones with the built in arbor, I think the one I had was a couple inches in diameter?) and use that to grind a hollow in the center of the back of the blade....I suppose you could even grind a hollow, but I wouldn't trust myself to do that this way.

[Michael Fross]

Hello everyone,

Several weeks ago I just got done with Rob's two day dovetailing class. My first joint in the class was orders of magnitude better than my dozens attempt before his class. His methods work and I'm proof. I was frankly amazed.

Now, Rob is opinionated and I know that will irk some people. But I few this as a huge plus. I *want* his opinions. Thats why I took the class. I know there are many ways to accomplish things and there are no right and wrongs. But Rob has honed his teaching methods over the years and they work.

Rob's videos are great, but if you have a chance to take his class, I think you will be impressed. Everyone in my class had a great time, learned a lot, and walked out much better woodworkers. He talks about his tools and why he designed each one the way he did. He does not pressure you to buy his tools, but he explains why he did what he did.

I walked into the class knowing little about Rob other than his reputation. I walked out a better dovetailer and a big fan of Robs.

Michael Fross

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not to sound stuffy, but honestly, I don't understand the obsession with dovetail instruction. People don't get as worked up over classes or videos about other types of joinery. Obviously part of this is because most everything shows on a dovetail, where a mortise and tenon half your work is hidden from view, but I'd like to think we're making our M+T and other joints just as tight and perfect as our other joinery.

The thing is, as far as I can tell (and my experience is limited) a dovetail isn't really any different than any other joint - you need to be accurate in marking, and you need to learn to saw to the line. Then you need to be able to pare away that last bit of waste to the baseline. As has been said previously, if you can't saw to the line, you need to practice that, not dovetails.

Below are pictures of literally my third set of dovetails, in some walnut, from a while ago. I made one set in pine a (a single giant dovetail for each of four sides of a box base for a sewing machine) a few years before these that I was basically just hacking at without thinking, and a another single tail in 1/2" maple to test out a dovetail saw I bought and as practice. Then I made this.

If I remember correctly, this is the first corner I made of the four on this box. These photos are old; it's going to be part of a footswitch assembly for some guitar effects stuff. (edit: I just realized they're all the same corner, sorry - but going by my marks inside the box, this is the first one.)

I have been making mostly guitars, for while now, so I've never needed to cut a real dovetail. Granted, I've been working with handsaws for a while now, so I know how to saw to a line pretty well. Before I made these tails, I threw a piece of scrap in the workmate and made a few practice cuts to get in the flow. I think that helped. But that was really it. While the saw was nice, the chisels were not.

Literally the only how-to I've seen on dovetails was Roy's dovetail variations episode on the Woodwrights shop, (and I fell asleep with on the couch, I was tired) and another episode where I think he cut one, where I learned the trick of using the saw to mark the second board. I think I read a bit on Derek's site, but I don't remember much except that beveling the underside would be helpful for assembling the joint.

I don't doubt there are lots of tips I could pick up from videos and classes, but as someone else said here, I think the biggest thing is being able to look at your results objectively and see where the issues reside. I was sawing a bit to the left, so I made a concious effort to correct that. After my first tails in the piece of maple, I realized quickly that cutting accurately was better than paring the sides, and I realized that preperation (making sure your boards where square and true) helped a lot, and that I was undercutting helped my joints fit tightly. I didn't need anyone to tell me those special tricks, I stopped, looked at my results, and figured out what was going wrong. When I first started sawing, and things weren't going well, I stopped and thought about what was happening right and wrong and figured it out. I'm sure someone told me once to "let the saw do the work", but I was damned if I knew what that meant at the time. But it didn't take long for me to figure out that bearing down on it was not helpful, and what the difference between at sharp and dull saw felt like.

I'm not trying to say that I'm awesome here, but rather that anyone can do this. If I can make passable DT joints, then it's not hard. It really is just learning to saw well.

If you look at something like Tage Frid's first book, his section on handcut dovetails is a few pages at most. Roy's episode on dovetails wasn't a half hour of how to make a dovetail joint, but some musing on interesting variations of it. Most of Tage's information is on the marking aspect (the most important part) and a good bit is identifying problems with the cuts, which is also important.

As far as tails first or pins first, I think the best bet is to identify what you can cut most accurately to your line, and make that second. You can make the first one fairly off, and it's okay as long as you can make the second board match whatever you did on the first.

If guess if I had the opportunity to take a class at a price I liked and it was local to me, I probably would, in the hopes that I would learn something, and also because I find woodworking to pretty solitary, so working with others would be a nice change, and it's nice sometimes to meet people you share interests in. But with the amount of information available online, and simply taking the time to analyze my results, I don't know if I would really think about buying a DVD on dovetails; I feel like most of what there is to learn are the silly tricks you just pick up from talking to folks.

I guess I look at it like learning an instrument - the times I've taken lessons, it's been to learn things like music theory, I didn't take a class to teach me how to play a lick fast or tight, I just practiced. I could have payed someone to come and stand over my shoulder and watch me practice my scales, or give me a list of things run through, but I found it just as effective to analyze where my shortcomings where and work on those.

196083196084196085


Okay, I just re-read through all this; I hope I don't sound like a jerk. Short version, I'm not trying to say that the instructors have no use, just that this isn't as hard as everyone makes it out.

[David Keller NC]

Not to sound stuffy, but honestly, I don't understand the obsession with dovetail instruction. People don't get as worked up over classes or videos about other types of joinery. Obviously part of this is because most everything shows on a dovetail, where a mortise and tenon half your work is hidden from view, but I'd like to think we're making our M+T and other joints just as tight and perfect as our other joinery.

Joshua - Just my take on this. I think the reason that folks get worked up over dovetails is that they're not seen the way they were 200 years ago, which was just a way to reasonably quickly build a strong joint that wouldn't come apart in hard use on the front of a drawer.

I think they're now seen as part of evidence of one's ability as a craftsman, and a right-of-passage. And to "attain" that rank, the joint has to be aesthetically perfect, not just functional. Personally, I think that's a bit overboard - it's akin to the threads on the power tool forums that are titled something to the effect of "My table saw fence is out by 2 thousandths of an inch, how do I correct this disaster?". Yes, it's ridiculous, but it's quite common.

[Chris Fournier]

Honestly, all of this thread to discuss dovetails, the stock intrade of woodworkers since the times of the pyramids? While well made dovetails are accepted as a hallmark of craftsmanship, they have been so forever, there is nothing new here. They are not hard to make (with a couple of exceptions), they do not require the best tooling to make them and they do not have to be blessed by anyone other than the maker. Also there is no race, who cares how long you take to get your perfect DT? The object is good craftsmanship, tutelage is not a bad thing but in the end you've got to develop the hand skills with time on the tools.

This thread has gone viral because of the tendancy to worship personalities in this craft. Be free, be your own man/woman. Learn the principles behind sharpening and using the tools that you own and then get a simple analog paper and ink article from "the old" FWW or what have you and then practice in your shop on your bench (or on your Schwarz Roubo Styled bench) until you get repeatably acceptable results.

We need some perspective on woodworking these days. Design elegantly for the application, apply yourself fully to each step of the building process from wood selection to installation.

I am reminded of a fly-fisher that I knew that prided himself on being able to cast out 75' of line everytime. Great skill and technique; just not that useful when most trout were actually about 20' from his rod tip. Terrible fisherman, great fly caster.

[Sean Hughto]

Amen. I guess it's easier to get worked up about silly little threshold questions than to face the daunting prospect actually creating something. Which tool is best, which method is best, how do I sharpen best, and on and on. Just get on with using what you've got and you'll automatically figure out what works best for YOU in all these areas.

[Ed Looney]

Perhaps if one shares what works best for them with others it will increase learning so that everyone can have access to knowledge that just may better their best. Nothing about this should be about personalities. The focus should be on sharing knowledge with others to aid in the quest for improved craftsmanship. For me this forum is like shopping in a grocery store. I don't need or want everything on the shelves. I do like to shop around to see if there is some idea on the shelf that I can use. Thankfully there are those who have shared their best with this forum because I have been able to learn and improve from their experience. However the ideas I cannot use I just leave on the shelf for others.


Ed

[Mike Henderson]

I guess I don't fall that far on the side of tools as the determinate of good work. When I first started making dovetails, I use a small Japanese saw and Freud chisels. I read a book on how to do dovetails. My first dovetail wasn't that good, but I learned from that attempt and my third was pretty good. I used that setup (Japanese saw and less than LN chisels) for a bunch of years and made a lot of dovetails.

Since then, I've bought tools with higher price tags - LN and LV saws, LN and Blue Spruce chisels - but I haven't seen a lot of difference in my dovetails. I have learned a lot more about making dovetails, some from Rob Cosman's DVD, but mostly it's little "tricks", such as better ways to lay out the dovetails, or ideas for "fancier" dovetails.

Everyone is different but I think that many woodworkers - woodworkers who are careful and patient - can learn to make very good dovetails with modestly priced tools.

Mike

[Let me add one additional point: I have great respect for people like Rob who spent years learning their craft and then spent more years perfecting their teaching methods so they could pass along what they've learned. It's people like him - people who DO - that we should respect, not the critic who sits back and takes pot shots.]

[george wilson]

You guys might think some of the tools I used to make the inlaid guitar are crude. I didn't have A2 tools,or powdered metal either(still don't). I had only old Disston back saws,wooden planes with original irons in them,and a deep throated wooden fret saw I made for sawing the marquetry work.

I still use the same set of 1965ish Marples chisels. They are,at least about 58-59 rockwell. Not soft like some new stuff.

I wish I had had the .015" dovetail saws we can get today. They are the best for dovetailing,but I did cut perfectly accurate dovetails with my old Disstons.

The most important thing I taught my new apprentices was how to sharpen their tools. This was the first thing I always taught them.

The tools I made the big harpsichord with (which I made in private before I opened to the public) included the 1960's Stanley block plane that most now shun, with factory blade,my Marples chisels from 1965,Disston back saw with about .023" thick blade(can't recall offhand the exact thickness),newish Disston crosscut saw,Sears handscrews,and generally the ordinary type of tools you'd buy in a hardware store at that time. I kept them very sharp. When they dulled,I resharpened them.

I used an oilstone at that time(a Norton India),and an Arkansas stone,and strop. Diamond stones were far in the future. So were ceramic stones.

Never forget that the best masterpieces you see in museums were made with hand tools that did not use super steels in them. My 18th.C. carving tools are variable in quality,and so are the 19th.C. ones.

I am not saying to buy bad tools. I'm telling you what I made my best work with,and advising all of you to keep them sharp. Develop patience and learn how to really look carefully at what you are doing all the time.

[Chris Fournier]

Rob, if you have only seen one properly sharpened chisel over the years that you've been coaching then that says a lot about your students - at the beginning of your class anyways. I simply cannot believe that this statement is true, there is no secret to sharpening any of our handtools and the subject has been "demystified" by others for many many years.

At 60 years old and regardless of eyesight I'd say that a person has had almost a complete life of effectively researching subject matter and learning skills. Do they now have the money to spend on a class or two? Yeah, a lot more than they did 30 years earlier. Could they have learned these skills on their own and become extremely proficient (as hobbiests or pros)? Of course and multitudes have done so and will continue to do so.

Your take on tools is a bit over the top. A good craftsman can tune up existing and create his own tools if needs be. Good craftsmanship starts with a desire to become proficient, not the desire to collect "the best" tooling.

Your last response to this thread is nothing more than your personal justification for your business activities and I think we already all understand that.

[David Keller NC]

So there you have it, buy good tools (you only cry once!),choose your favorite author/demonstrator and buy a DVD or take a class and be farther ahead as a result.

Rob Cosman

I think you are quite right about this - there is nothing wrong with seeking instruction, and I can speak first-hand that trying to figure things out on your own is a lot harder than having someone show you.

And my comments about applying inappropriate standards to the humble dovetail are in line with that - there is definitely something worthwhile about learning to cut dovetails that fit from the saw, and not having a glaringly obvious gaps in the result (or splitting the tail board when the joint is assembled). Unfortunately, however, there is the other extreme, and in my view, it is driven by an unfortunate aesthetic derived from machine tools and factory-made items. Wood cannot be dimensioned to thousandths of an inch such that perfectly produced parts from a cut list can be assembled into piece of furniture that is in any way better, or even as good as, a piece of furniture where the parts are fit to the other parts in a manner of working that no factory could function under.

It is that last part that is the idea that I most often find myself trying to un-teach a beginner, and it dovetails (exuse the pun ;)) into the idea that obsessing over technique to the detriment of actually designing and completing something is inappropriate, unless learning and practicing technique is the actual goal that one has and wishes to spend his or her time on. But I don't know too many folks that have that as a goal, but many of these same folks are the ones that endlessly read "what's the right way to sharpen" threads, and the ones that insist on posting threads asking which tool they should buy from a selection of high-quality makers.

That sort of mentality results in the "OMG! My new router's spindle has a runnout of 1 thousandths of an inch!" threads, and it unfortunately punishes the rest of us by polluting the magazines that we'd like to read with "Tool test: We test 15 brands of Philips Screwdrivers".

That, however, does not mean that all tools are equivalent, that there's really any truth in the saying "It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools" if that craftsman has purchased a bunch of tool-shaped objects from Harbor Freight. Rob is absolutely correct that crappy, ill-adjusted or just plain non-functional cheap tools are the bane of a beginner. Yes, I can cut a halfway decent set of dovetails with a plastic-handled stanley back saw from Home Depot that's filed cross-cut and has a set appropriate to green firewood cutting, but that's after years and years of practice. Beginners shouldn't have that steepening of the learning curve put in front of them - ever, and all too often I see folks on the net forums declare that Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Wenzlof, Blue Spruce, etc... are too expensive in an objective sense. That's foolish in the extreme, and more importantly is objectionable because it often comes from a fundamental cultural view that extreme frugality is somehow honorable, and anything else is "getting ripped off", "fattening the wallets of shysters" and other deplorable attitudes. Just because one can get something more cheaply than the what another has purchased doesn't mean that the second person is stupid, nor that getting something cheaply is honorable or admirable - quite the opposite is usually true.

[Jim Koepke]

They all arrive unsatisfied with their results or not yet tried...

I made a comment a few years ago in a seminar that I had yet to see a properly sharpened plane or chisel show up in any of my classes, DC was in the audience and he commented that having taught since 1975 he had only seen it twice.


Rob, if you have only seen one properly sharpened chisel over the years that you've been coaching then that says a lot about your students - at the beginning of your class anyways. I simply cannot believe that this statement is true, there is no secret to sharpening any of our handtools and the subject has been "demystified" by others for many many years.

I think this indicates exactly the students demographic.

Have not yet tried... May not even know where or how to start.

The unsatisfied may be unsatisfied because they have not yet learned to sharpen their tools.

It is often my suggestion that people go ahead and try something. After all, I was able to do it. If I can, anyone should be able to do it. Well, this doesn't always work. But with trying to sharpen an inexpensive saw or cutting some dovetails, what is there to lose? Then again, sometimes I have felt the mind freeze up trying to figure how many tails a joint should have or other aspects of wood working.

Many of us were able dive right in and "jump the hurdles." Some folks can not get started without someone showing them how and where to start.

For some, helping these folks find their way is an occupation just as valid as that of a tour guide or college professor.

So, some of us will continue to advise people to jump in with both feet and others will continue to suggest the DVD or classes.

Fortunately, in a way, we are all correct.

There will always be those who jump in and get it as there will be those who get lost at what exact tools they have to buy before they can get started.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

"What experience is yourskepticism based on? " - Rob Cosman QUOTED

My skepticism is base on my personal experience Rob, personal experience working in the industry, as a supplier, craftsman and casual mentor of several woodworkers. It is also based on the many woodworkers whom I have met over the years, woodworkers whom I have visited in their shop settings or invited to my own shop to discuss our craft, tools and techniques. My smaller survey sample has a much higher incidence of competence than yours. This will not fill any classes though will it?


It's my opinion Rob that much of the push back that you get from people, (myself included) on these forums has to do with the delivery and tone of your dialogue. I don't think that it is any coincidence that the other instructors mentioned in this thread tend to let their "product" speak for itself - they rarely if ever engage in a thread like you do and when they do they do so graciously and respectfully regardless of the origianal poster's position. I have found these qualities lacking in your responses.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Jim Koepke brings up a good point, varying degrees of beginner success. For years I taught sea kayaking and in the winter ran pool sessions to teach people how to eskimo roll their boats. While the groups were generally younger than the woodworking demographic, there is a direct correlation in the levels of hand-eye coordination found between the two groups irrespective of age. There were the very rare individuals who "got" their first successful eskimo roll during the first of 6 sessions of 2 hours. They were able to combine the verbal commentary, the demonstration, and the physical modeling exercises into success on the first day. The vast majority of the class members got their roll about the 3-5th session. The final members took right up until the end and their rolls were still less than relaible and were still occasionally unsuccessful.

The whole point of the first paragraph is that people vary in how they quickly and how successfully they learn any physical skill. Dovetailing is definately a physical skill and it requires developing a kinestetic sense through good quality repetition of both the parts like sawing to a line or chopping to the baseline and then putting everything together for the whole result. Like in the sports world, a positive mental preparation and attitude improve results. There are those rare individuals (whom I envy) who have such good coordination that they get quality dovetails right away. The rest of us have to practice more, think harder about the process, and take it slow enough that we do it right. Speed should come only after experience develops our skills and we consistently do it right time after time. Make no mistake about it, cutting any kind of joinery by hand is a physical skill and it requires as much practice as learning to play any sport well.

[george wilson]

I just cannot agree that a top notch saw will,in the hands of a beginner,always cut true,flat,gluable joints. I taught high school shop for 6 years,and taught adults in community college in evenings,and,of course,in the museum for many years. It is surprising what a mess can be made with decent tools.

As an extra bit of information,I am certain that people just getting started at 60 years of age have a profound disadvantage. We are born with many nerve endings in our brains. If we use our hands early on,these are retained. If we do not,the extra nerves disappear. This was found out quite a few years ago by scientists examining brain tissue of people who had different occupations. Salesmen had far fewer of these nerves than people who worked at a skilled trade. At first they thought that the nerve endings were developed as skills were learned. Later on,studies of newborn's brain tissue showed that we are born with them,and must use them to keep them. People who have more rapid development of success have done something over the years that helped them retain their extra nerve development.

I have not meant to pick an argument,and have not engaged in personal stuff. However,in my long experience,some of the statements being made just do not agree with what I have learned over the years.

[Chris Fournier]

I am not often a natural at a new skill that I am trying to learn; most often I grind my way up the learning curve in the two steps forward one step backward fashion - in a word I am unexceptional. I am also not a fan of getting beaten up repeatedly when I do the same thing wrong and get the same poor results. Over the years, in rare moments of calm reflection I have learned to diagnose the activity at hand and move a bit speedier on my path to "acceptable success". It is all too easy to just mindlessly chop, saw, strike, jump, run, shoot without much thought and then be satisifed that you have practiced and should be better at the chosen activity.

Woodworking is a great activity to develop your own diagnostic learning process because things are not happening at light speed. There is no need to blow right past that last plane pass that tore out badly or saw right off the line or ruin a good cutting tool while grinding. We have the luxury of stopping the process right then and there and figuring out what has gone wrong.

Planes tend not to fall out of the sky that often because the operators are serious about staying aloft! They have a to do list and they stick to it religiously. The hand made joinery to do list has been exhaustively documented, achieving good joinery means following the to do list until you can do! "Perfect prior practice improves performance" is what some coach once said to me...

On the subject of instruction I would like to say this: you will be better at any given skill when you begin to perceive and recognize patterns and be able to develop a "when I do this, this happens" sensibility. This asset is only mastered through repetition and personal experience. You can be told about the patterns all day long but they will not be yours until you roll up your sleeves and earn them by doing.

[Jim Koepke]

I just cannot agree that a top notch saw will,in the hands of a beginner,always cut true,flat,gluable joints. I taught high school shop for 6 years,and taught adults in community college in evenings,and,of course,in the museum for many years. It is surprising what a mess can be made with decent tools.

It doesn't surprise me one bit. Just watching friends and my kids growing up or my own efforts has shown me this.


We are born with many nerve endings in our brains. If we use our hands early on,these are retained. If we do not,the extra nerves disappear. This was found out quite a few years ago by scientists examining brain tissue of people who had different occupations. Salesmen had far fewer of these nerves than people who worked at a skilled trade.

LOL! So that explains my biggest problem with salesmen. Oh wait, I'm thinking brain cells. :)


At first they thought that the nerve endings were developed as skills were learned. Later on,studies of newborn's brain tissue showed that we are born with them,and must use them to keep them. People who have more rapid development of success have done something over the years that helped them retain their extra nerve development.

This is interesting. When I was a teaching assistant in the 1960s, there were some new studies that indicated repetitive physical activities increased learning abilities. Since I didn't end up pursuing a teaching career it wasn't something added to my research. But it seems a valid avenue of the nerve training and mental retention. A lot of physical training/activities can become instinctive reactions. There is a concept of learning crossover, but this may not be the place to delve into that subject.


I have not meant to pick an argument,and have not engaged in personal stuff. However,in my long experience,some of the statements being made just do not agree with what I have learned over the years.

You will get no argument from me on that. Even if they are my statements with which you do not agree. After all, my statements are ultimately just my opinion and an opinion is proof of nothing.

jtk

[george wilson]

I'll have to go back and read your posts,Johnny. I wasn't aware I was even disagreeing with you.

If what I say is an opinion,I try to state such(at least I'm making it a rule lately). If what I say is based upon experience,it carries more weight,and I'll mention it as actual experience,unless I forget to.

P.S. : I re read all your posts,and can't find something I disagree with. Your first assertion that giving "times" needed to sharpen a chisel,I definitely agree with. I have taught many people to sharpen,and it seems like the ones who never get a sharp edge in any reasonable length of time AREN'T bearing down hard enough. How hard you bear down to at least get a coarse edge established will most definitely affect your time. Approaching the finer grits,lighter bearing is fine.

I even defended Rob Cosman,and watched one of his online videos. I cannot believe that someone who tries to make his way with woodworking has no heart or soul. This just isn't the field you get into to make money.

[Jim Neeley]

Last Christmas I was doubly-blessed. Last fall my son and I were watching a video on building a coffee table and my bride fell in love with the design and asked for one for Christmas. She really liked the design from the video (28"x48" with two slide-through drawers, retained in the center with rare earth magnets), but wanted one made from red oak (all solid oak, of course) but toned with a honey-amber dye to match some other furniture. My 20yo son and I agreed to give it a try over his Christmas break from the University.

This might not seem like much to many of you but it was WAY more than anything I'd made to date. Additionally I'd not gotten into dying anything with a large visible surface. I knew I wanted an alcohol-soluble dye and knew the best finish would come from spraying... another technique I'd never used.

After watching the video of the panel glue-up, flattening something wider than my planer (a first), learning the value of decorative kerf cuts and offset panels a couple of times it felt do-able. So, while he was at scholl, O picked up the oak so it could acclimitize, studied dyes and conversion guns until I settled on Trans-Tint and a C.A. Tech conversion gun. I studied the 'net and picked up several books on spray finishing, until I ran into Jeff Jewitt's "Spray Finishing Made Simple: A Book and Step-by-Step Companion DVD". The book was Ok but it wasn't until I watched the DVD of Jeff showing how easy it was to spray and reading the book again that I felt comfortable spraying the table.

This is not to say that this precluded the need to practice the flattening and spraying skills. It did go a long way however in taking something that appeared nearly impossible and showing just how easy it is... with practice, of course.

In all I was blessed with spending about 10 days in the shop with my son as we carefully worked our way through the process, making samples and re-making parts as necessary, but the results speak for themselves. My son and I enjoyed the process and my bride couldn't be more pleased.

I agree wholeheartedly that some learn best by reading, some by hearing and some by seeing something performed. Some truly skilled folks probably just learn best by doing but I've learned that I'm a visual learner. Each of us should be encouraged to first learn how we best learn and then apply it to developing new skills.

Back to being truly blessed.. the time I spent in the shop with my son was fabulous.. and he's started developing a love for working with wood.. After returning from the U for the summer we're out inthe shop again, building a complex wooden cube with LEDs inside, lenses imbedded in the wood, and he's built the elctronic control circuit. We'll see how it comes out but in any event working together in the shop is very wonderful time!!

I've attached a picture of my son wiping on the final coat of clear finish.

Jim

P.S. If you're interested in learning to spray, the DVD's great.. and the book's on Amazon.


196173

[Mike Henderson]

When I started woodworking, I didn't have any problems about what tools I could buy - I simply could not afford new tools in the LN category. And when you're starting out, there are so many tools to buy. I had to choose carefully, but from tools in the lower priced category. I bought mostly used tools (chisels and planes) and learned to sharpen and set them up. I had good instructors at the local community college. For a saw, I choose a small Japanese pull saw because it was inexpensive and it didn't have to be sharpened - if the blade got screwed up, you just bought a new blade at a reasonable price.

My primary objection when people recommend LN or Blue Spruce to beginners is that I remember how expensive it was to get started. For some people, like me, such advice would have been useless - almost worse than useless - I just couldn't afford it. It's very possible to learn woodworking with medium priced tools, such as older used tools, and it's very possible to do extremely good work with those tools.

The skills you need, such as sharpening, are the same with older tools as for new, modern tools. If you buy LN tools and can't sharpen, your work will suffer exactly the same as if you bought older tools and can't sharpen.

There is no royal road to knowledge, whether that knowledge is woodworking or something else.

Mike

[David Weaver]

I made a comment a few years ago in a seminar that I had yet to see a properly sharpened plane or chisel show up in any of my classes, DC was in the audience and he commented that having taught since 1975 he had only seen it twice.

Well, I guess that says a lot about the student cohort, and a lot about why I have never had the urge to sign up for any class where that level of competency is the target. Perhaps much more likely that you haven't been inspecting that many of the students' tools, because sharpening properly isn't that difficult.

I only do woodworking with one other person regularly. He would never cut a dovetail by hand (a machine fanatic), but I'll guarantee nobody on this board gets sharper edges on their tools. His are no sharper than mine (when sharpness counts), and I'll bet there are scads of folks on here who get about the same sharpeness as I do, where the results are only limited by the abrasive fineness.

If there are individuals in droves who are not absolute rank beginners, and who cannot figure out how to sharpen with as much free domain information as there is available, maybe they should find another hobby rather than dumping their money on single topic courses.

[Jamie Cowan]

I work at tool retailer, and recently spoke with a customer who was having trouble cutting dovetails even after watching Cosman's video. He emailed Rob Cosman about it, and Cosman called him on the phone and walked him through it personally. That's huge, in my book. A lot of people seem to think his saw is priced too high, or that he charges too much for his class, or whatever. I've never taken the class, never used the saw--couldn't tell you. But I certainly can't begrudge a guy for making a living. Have you ever had a customer try to beat you up on price? I'm sure we all think we are charging fair and honest prices for honest work, yet there is always somebody who thinks you're running the table on him. Why doesn't this seem to apply when people are talking about Rob Cosman?

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well, I guess that says a lot about the student cohort, and a lot about why I have never had the urge to sign up for any class where that level of competency is the target. Perhaps much more likely that you haven't been inspecting that many of the students' tools, because sharpening properly isn't that difficult....

I haven't taken that many woodworking classes, and only one building furniture (Homestead Heritage, craftsman rocking chair, in which Stan the instructor definitely had opportunities to inspect and approve my tool sharpness). The other 3 were Odate-san's How to Use Japanese Tools for which we brought no tools; Inomoto-san's dai building seminar for which I used tools supplied; and a very brief finishing class at Homestead, for which I used their sprayers and other tools. So there was only 1/4 of the classes in which an instructor played with my tools (mostly because he was interested in the Japanese tools I used), and he loved them, especially the dovetail saw from LV.

Oh, yeah, and there was a basic woodworking course I took 30 years ago in Boston, for which the instructor specified the types of tools to buy (a very basic set, maybe $100 at most for everything including stone and oil) and taught us how to sharpen, make dovetails, etc. Because of work, I had to drop out after two classes; but he was great, taught me how to make dovetails in part of an evening. Most of my woodworking before that had been refinishing, carving, and carpentry; so I'd never even heard of dovetails before.

Funny, not one of those instructors felt it necessary to specify a best tool in any category.

Pam

[Johnny Kleso]

You will get no argument from me on that. Even if they are my statements with which you do not agree. After all, my statements are ultimately just my opinion and an opinion is proof of nothing.


I have seen so many plane blades ground badly to say 40º and them honed at 25º and they can't figuer out why its still dull..

I think it's OK to say it may take you X amount of time..
You must address the two edges must form the feathered edge and you need to get the correct scratch pattern..
On my sharpening page I give an amount of strokes but this is at the very very end of sharpening to take the feathered edge off..

PAM,
30 years ago there where no best tools...........................
I had wood shop in grammer and a techinical high school and all we had was Stanley tools...
Bback in the 80s you had Good, Good and Pretty Good all made in the USA maybe Japan Not Import, Poland or USA like today

[Pam Niedermayer]

...PAM,
30 years ago there where no best tools...........................
I had wood shop in grammer and a techinical high school and all we had was Stanley tools...
Bback in the 80s you had Good, Good and Pretty Good all made in the USA maybe Japan Not Import, Poland or USA like today

From a local Woodsmith I bought, for the class, a Tyzack 14" backsaw, a Stanley block plane (which I immediately disliked), 4 Marples chisels, a Stanley boxwood marking gauge (excellent), and a black Arkansas. That's all I needed to make perfect dovetails, first time out. I think 4 out of 5 of these tools were excellent.

The other classes I took starting in this millenium, all told, maybe 10 days of classes over 6 years, 2000-06. In 1981 I built a darkroom with those basic tools and an ancient table saw, hardly deserving of the name, it even ate half a finger; but it got done and well. The eighteen year gap from 1982-2000 I spent trying to build a software development firm and had no time for anything else.

Pam

[Ed Looney]

A horse is a tool man uses to aid his work. Properly trained it needs little direction from it's operator and together they can get much work accomplished. However if improperly trained the horse is wielding and hard to control. Now you can still get the field plowed with a bad horse, it is just more difficult. A bad horse needs constant direction to keep it plowing to the last row frustrating the farmer and making his work harder. Likewise a bad saw takes the same constant correction to keep it sawing to the line making the work more difficult. However a properly trained horse once started can follow the row with little or no correction from the farmer. Likewise with a quality saw once started to the cut line takes little or no correction to keep it there.

Would more training (fettling) help the horse? Possibly but some horses are just to dang ornery and should be replaced. The exact same can be said for chisels planes and hand saws. Some need constant fiddling to keep them doing the work correctly and should be replaced.

Most of my growing up years were spent on a farm where I learned that there are some horses that are the best some that are good and some not worth the cost of hay they eat. Likewise I have spent my working career in a shop where I learned that some tools are indeed the best some are good and some are absolutely junk.

The advise I got from Rob was to buy the best you can possibly afford because it is better than buying cheep once and then having to spend again to replace them.

Honestly I don't understand how that philosophy can create any controversy but unfortunately it has.

PS As to what a good tool is like for a beginner well I learned to ride on good horses and bad horses. The good horse was easier and more pleasant in the learning curve. All I can say about the bad horse is that I sat briefly in the saddle before I was ejected from the class. Life experience has taught me to learn from the best because the learning curve is much more enjoyable.

Ed Looney

[Dave Anderson NH]

It seems that this thread has evolved into one on learning. I have taken very few formal classes in woodworking over the years, but one does stand out in both quality and its format. About 12 years ago I decided that I needed to learn how to do woodturning properly. My only previous experience had been in 8th grade wood shop and in those days we did much of the work with scrapers since they were safer and required less instruction on the part of the teacher who was faced with a class of aboout 14. He was a brave soul since I sure wouldn't want to face 14 adolescent boys and try to control them. I chose to go with formal instruction because I knew that I did not want to start off developing bad habits and techniques which later take massive amounts of work to break. I'd been that route before. My new lathe sat in the shop unused right up until the night of the first class though it was difficult to resist the temptation to take it for s spin (sorry).

The class was what I consider to be in the ideal format. It was 3 hours every other Thursday night for 12 weeks. It started out with a talk on tool selection, and yes the instructor had tools to sell and no one was offended. We were allowed to bring our own tools, buy them at the class, or use the ones owned by the school. The next step was learning to sharpen, and then we began on spindle turning with some exercises and a simple short project. Between sessions we were given exercises to do and told to practice during the 2 week break. We came back with problems, questions about technique, and the instructor addressed them both to the full group of 8 and with each of us individually. This pattern continue for the full 6 sessions of 3 hours the first 3 of which were on spindle turning and the last 3 on faceplate turning. Unfortunately, it is rare that schools can generate enough students in a local area that this is an economically viable format. Most often students take a class and are then on their own without and folowup or feedback. I have never taken a better or more useful class.

[David Keller NC]

My primary objection when people recommend LN or Blue Spruce to beginners is that I remember how expensive it was to get started. For some people, like me, such advice would have been useless - almost worse than useless - I just couldn't afford it. It's very possible to learn woodworking with medium priced tools, such as older used tools, and it's very possible to do extremely good work with those tools.

Indeed, if selected carefully, there are many antinques that will work just as well as modern, high-quality one, and in some cases, better than anything that is made today. But, in my view, that's not a reason to specifically recommend antiques to a newbie to the exclusion of Lee Valley/Lie-Nielsen, Grammercy, etc... I have, have tuned, and use many antiques because I like them.

But the knowledge to select a good, workable antique vs. one that is better left for Cracker Barrel's interior decor is a skill, and one many beginners do not possess. Further, learning how to diagnose and correct the usability issues with many hand woodworking tools is a further skill, and just about every antique I've ever acquired needed tuning. And you're right - if you're serious about working wood, you cannot avoid aquiring the skill to properly prep and sharpen edge tools such as plane blades and chisels. That tuning is straightforward with a chisel, but isn't with a saw, a brace bit or a wooden molding plane.

But in my view, it does an extreme disservice to a newbie to even slightly infer that a new high quality tool is somehow not worth it because you can learn to tell the difference between a workable antique with a few issues and an antique that's not serviceable, learn how to specifically diagnose and correct those problems, and spend a good deal of their time doing it. To me, that's considerably adding to the learning curve of a beginner, and worse, is communicating a value system that may not (and probably does not) apply. Many, if not most, of the folks that I have taught to do various things in a WW shop have extreme demands on their time. And while many of them don't make a lot of money, the look that I get when I explain how to find, select, and tune some of these tools (and that is without coloring the explanation with an inferred "I don't recommend this, but...", because I do like antiques) and then build the dovetailed jewelry box that they wanted to make for their wife's birthday is unmistakable. That look is discouragement, without equivocation.

When I tell that instead, they can purchase high-quality new tools that are cheaper than they ever have been in history, that they don't have to buy all of them at once, that they are all returnable if they have issues, and that most of them are usable right out of the box, and a few more require just a very few minutes to hone and put to work, the "vote with their feet" effect is nearly unanimous - most buy a new dt saw, a couple of chisels, a square, and a marking knife, and I usually make them a leather strop.

In other words, I've learned through being extremely, desparately poor, and also reasonably well off, that my priorities are generally not those of the ones coming to me for advice. And I take pains to tell them what the alternatives are. But that doesn't include telling them that they can short-cut both the price and the ready-to-work equation by purchasing garbage from HF, Home Despot, or Sears.

[David Keller NC]

It seems that this thread has evolved into one on learning.

Here's someone that seems intent beyond all business sense on the result for the student - he only takes one student at a time!:

http://www.handtoolwoodworking.com/teaching.html

[Chris Fournier]

Here's someone that seems intent beyond all business sense on the result for the student - he only takes one student at a time!:

http://www.handtoolwoodworking.com/teaching.html

This is in no way a slight to the good instructors out there but having many ties to my regional craft and art community I have watched many many people offer instruction for pay. They don't do it to increase production in their shops, in fact teaching doesn't hamper production at all; their problem is that they can't sell what they produce already so they need to make an income some other way - teaching.

In the world of fly-fishing I have watched and worked for (as a certified casting instructor and guide) shop owners who took up pretty serious teaching roles. Why do they do this? Students are potential fly-fishers and customers and it's back to bottom line retail sense build your retail sales through teaching new recruits the joy of your sport and they'll buy your tackle. Of course these guys wouldn't tell the students this - their line to a man was that they wanted to pass on the joy of fly-fishing to others! They also used their teaching activities to feather their overall status in the community - "I shop at 'X', his tackle is the best..." or "I've booked a guide with 'Y' he really is the best..." Pick an activity and this pattern is repeated ad nauseam.

We need teachers, and we admire many of them, but I wouldn't get too altruistic about why they chose the teaching path. There are exceptions and these are the teachers that really were born and dedicated to teach - they stand out in our lives.

[Johnny Kleso]

I think it may come down to adding a comment to students,

"You can buy the best and never have to buy again or buy mid-grade and maybe in time you will feel the need to upgrade to a better tool... There are many tools a new woodworker needs to buy.. Only you can choose which tools fit your (I'm lost for the correct word to put here) Passion, Budget, Commitment??

[Ed Looney]

David
Actually I think you just unwittingly paid Rob Cosman an extremely high compliment. If Rob can coach absolute rank beginners to the quality of the dovetail joints shown on his web sight it speaks extremely well of his abilities as an instructor. If Rob can take these droves of amateurs and in two days get them to the level where they are more than qualified to participate in this hobby it only establishes his credentials. Take a look at the Cosman web sight and look at the work of his students it will only confirm what the coach can do with the rank beginner of whom who you speak. After viewing the work of these "rank beginners" you just might want to reconsider your opinion on which hobbies they should participate in or how they choose to spend their money.


Ed Looney

[Mike Henderson]

...When I tell that instead, they can purchase high-quality new tools that are cheaper than they ever have been in history, that they don't have to buy all of them at once, that they are all returnable if they have issues, and that most of them are usable right out of the box, and a few more require just a very few minutes to hone and put to work, the "vote with their feet" effect is nearly unanimous - most buy a new dt saw, a couple of chisels, a square, and a marking knife, and I usually make them a leather strop.


I spent quite a while thinking about your comment and why your experience is so different from what I've seen. I think perhaps it's because only people with a certain amount of disposable income are able to take classes from private instructors, such as yourself or Rob. My experience is with people who study woodworking at a community college. From discussions with them, it's clear that they cannot afford tools in the LN or Blue Spruce range. If they were told that those were the only tools available they would immediately drop the classes - they would have no choice.

For many of these people, the cost of the class for a semester, maybe $100 or so, is a major commitment. The school teaches them how to sharpen and prepare planes and chisels during the class so they are able to acquire a good kit of tools for a reasonable price.

When someone asks about tools on this forum, we usually do not know what their financial situation is. Unless they give us signals that they can afford expensive tools, I feel we owe it to them to offer the option of decent quality lower priced tools, especially used tools. Older Stanley planes are very good and chisels by Witherby, Swan and a number of others are quite usable. Our ancestors made some very good quality furniture with those tools, or even some worse.

Mike

[george wilson]

That is what I just said,too,Mike. My best work was done with the tools I mentioned above. They are what I had when I arrived in 1970,and built the large harpsichord,and my inlaid lute with. Haven't posted pictures of the lute here,yet,as they are all on slides. Some have seen it elsewhere.

[Pam Niedermayer]

David
Actually I think you just unwittingly paid ...

Based on David's posts, I'd say he does little if anything unwittingly.

Pam

[Ed Looney]

Pam
I apologize if I incorrectly classified the compliment as unwittingly. If you insist I will be more than happy to go back and edit my post to indicate that the compliment was intentional.

Ed

[David Weaver]

Guaranteed it was no compliment.

I'd suggest you exclude any of my posts from your games of asserting other peoples' intentions.

[Johnny Kleso]

I'm of the same school, but self-taught. Once I realized the implications of marking from the already cut end, the whole world of freehand dovetails opened up. This was some 30 years ago. It was a blast seeing the experts doing the same thing.

Pam

Their school was an industrial job and worked 40+ hours a week for 30+ years
I dont get where your of the same school but self taught

How about posting some pics of your freehand dovetails

PS: They dont mark the first board only the second.........

[Ed Looney]

David
I meant no offense and I chose the term unwitting because I did not want to assert any of your intentions. However the unintentional compliment is still obvious. I am also quite sure that you did not intend your statements to be supportive. In fact I took your post as derisive and demeaning to those who would or have taken any of Rob's classes. That is why I chose the term unwitting to describe your unintended compliment. If Rob can get a rank beginner like me to produce a joint like the one below in just to days it must speak well of his abilities as a teacher. Perhaps you can get some of those you have taught to post some of their work so we can establish your skill qualifications as a qualified critic of those who teach.

Ed

[gary Zimmel]

Sweet looking dovetail Ed.

Just for the record I was a rank beginner to hand cut dovetails before taking a class from Rob.
The results from what I got out of the class allow me to do joints like this...

196313

They really haven't got better since the class a few years ago, but they can be done much quicker now.
I'm one of those 50 ish guys who wanted to be fast tracked into hand tools and dovetails.
Since my first course I have helped out in Rob's classes held in Calgary.
Every time I learn more and as a bonus I have met quite a few Creekers at the classes.

.

[Jim Neeley]

Ed & Gary.. Mighty nice dovetails!!!

Obviously Rob's doing *something* right!!

<In addition to mighty quick learning on your parts!!!> :D

[Pam Niedermayer]

Their school was an industrial job and worked 40+ hours a week for 30+ years
I dont get where your of the same school but self taught

How about posting some pics of your freehand dovetails

PS: They dont mark the first board only the second.........

I meant that the way I cut now was self-taught. My first set of dovetails 30 years ago, nicely laid out according to my instructor, was perfect; but the first thing I realized was that if the second board were marked by the cuts on the first board, it wasn't necessary that the first board be marked at all, except for the baseline. I call this the school of freehanded dovetails.

I no longer show any of my stuff, except tools made like the planing beam that may help someone else. For a couple of reasons: 1) taking the photos interrupts the process and takes me out of the moment, which I don't like at all; and 2) I don't pander for approval and/or praises.

I may make some videos in the not too distant future, illustrating processes like sawing, perhaps sawing dovetails. But I'm in no hurry, and would not consider doing this on demand.

Pam

[David Keller NC]

I spent quite a while thinking about your comment and why your experience is so different from what I've seen. I think perhaps it's because only people with a certain amount of disposable income are able to take classes from private instructors, such as yourself or Rob.

Oddly enough, Mike, most of the work I do as far as teaching is free (I just dislike seeing beginners struggle), but what you say might make a good deal of sense when demographics are considered. If you're largely teaching at a community college, perhaps many of the students are actually student-age (young)? In my case, it varies enormously, anywhere from 17 to 65, but most of the older folks have at least a little more disposable income.


For many of these people, the cost of the class for a semester, maybe $100 or so, is a major commitment. The school teaches them how to sharpen and prepare planes and chisels during the class so they are able to acquire a good kit of tools for a reasonable price.

There may also be a much simpler explanation for why those I've taught overwhelmingly choose to purchase new, quality tools rather than restore antiques. I almost always relate the price of a dt saw, marking knife, square, and a couple of chisels to the cost of the materials for even relatively basic projects, and also the cost of most stationary tools commonly found in home WW shops. The materials thing tends to be the deal-closer: I explain that a Lee-Valley dt saw is about $75 shipped, and the rest of the tools can be had for about an additional $200. A typical, slip-matched piece of cabinet grade plywood will be $50-$150 depending on the veneer species and the quality. The maple (maple is cheap in NC) for a typical kitchen table is going to be about $250, and the material for a good workbench is going to run about $250 - $450, excluding vises.

When I also explain that there is a learning curve to finding, selecting, and tuning antique WW tools, which I will gladly teach them to do, but will not "do it for them", most decide they'd rather buy a new dt saw and the other few necessary tools and get on with it.


When someone asks about tools on this forum, we usually do not know what their financial situation is. Unless they give us signals that they can afford expensive tools, I feel we owe it to them to offer the option of decent quality lower priced tools, especially used tools. Older Stanley planes are very good and chisels by Witherby, Swan and a number of others are quite usable. Our ancestors made some very good quality furniture with those tools, or even some worse.


Absolutely, and in most of my posts I consciously try to list old tools as an option. But, this may be the critical difference between us - I do not consider LV and LN tools expensive; they are, IMO, very reasonably priced when the time and expense required to tune antiques is considered. And, based on most folk's disposable income and what they do with it, the price of a few LV/LN tools will be forgotten in a few weeks ($80 to fill a gas tank, $15 to see a movie, etc... are just some of the considerations). Nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with steering a newbie to the flea market if he's got a $20k annual income, it's just that's not the folks commonly interested in WW that I meet. Most of them are scientists, engineers, or in some cases, professional artists/designers.

[David Keller NC]

This is in no way a slight to the good instructors out there but having many ties to my regional craft and art community I have watched many many people offer instruction for pay.

What I meant in the case of Elia was that he only takes one student at at time - most folks that teach as a primary means of business income take at least several students at time (and materials to build the class project are extra)...

[Ed Looney]

Gary

Thanks for the kind words. I am aquatinted with your labor of love post (link below) and that is some real fine work. I bet you have a place for everything and it is easy to keep everything in it's place. I think you were wise to incorporate that amount of storage into your shop. I would wager that you don't have the problem with shop clutter that most wood workers face.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114386-A-Labor-of-Love.&highlight=a+labor+of+love

Thanks again

Ed Looney

[george wilson]

Pam: Nothing wrong with posting pictures of your work. They can be educational,and sometimes inspirational. I think pictures are great. Apparently most here do,too,since many post pictures. If it "takes you out of the moment",wait till the moment is over,then take the pictures. Pictures show more than words can in most cases.

[john jesseph]

Here's someone that seems intent beyond all business sense on the result for the student - he only takes one student at a time!:

http://www.handtoolwoodworking.com/teaching.html

Hi all;

Elia is nice guy, humble, and skilled. He is a family friend of Roy Underhill, and an understudy of Tenessee Windsor maestro Curtis Buchanan. The Woodwright's Shop episodes 3005 and 3006 feature Elia building a continuous arm Windsor- you can tell the admiration Roy has for Elia's skill. If I wanted to learn double baluster leg turning, I would put him at the top of the list of teachers- He is the fellow that turns all the leg sets for Curtis when he teaches big classes like at Highland in Atlanta.

Chairmaking is complex, and difficult to both do and teach. Some of the greatest Windsor makers most often take only one student at a time, e.g. Curtis, Dave Sawyer, Pete Galbert. They tend to live humbly and simply, so the education is not a commodity. Not a lot of self promotion, and no teaching to the least common denominator. A week spent like that is not just sawing and chiseling to a line- it is a life experience...

[David Weaver]

David
I meant no offense and I chose the term unwitting because I did not want to assert any of your intentions. However the unintentional compliment is still obvious. I am also quite sure that you did not intend your statements to be supportive. In fact I took your post as derisive and demeaning to those who would or have taken any of Rob's classes. That is why I chose the term unwitting to describe your unintended compliment. If Rob can get a rank beginner like me to produce a joint like the one below in just to days it must speak well of his abilities as a teacher. Perhaps you can get some of those you have taught to post some of their work so we can establish your skill qualifications as a qualified critic of those who teach.

Ed

I don't know when cutting a dovetail became such a big deal, I guess as soon as it became a marketing opportunity to teach it. Anyone could teach you to do it, and you could've learned it on your own pretty quickly with a critical eye to your own work and a little bit of thought. If that wasn't enough, everything you'd need to know is available for *free* on the internet, from dimensioning the rough stock to picking and setting up the tools you need.

If a pt barnum related statement is somehow a compliment to you, then carry on.

[george wilson]

If you can already saw straight and chisel accurately,I don't think it's a big deal either. When I needed to make my first dovetails,I just did it.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I don't know when cutting a dovetail became such a big deal, I guess as soon as it became a marketing opportunity to teach it. Anyone could teach you to do it, and you could've learned it on your own pretty quickly with a critical eye to your own work and a little bit of thought. If that wasn't enough, everything you'd need to know is available for *free* on the internet, from dimensioning the rough stock to picking and setting up the tools you need.

Amen to that. But I also suspect the proliferation of these teaching DVD may have something to do with learning styles. I figured out long time ago that I am a visual learner. Even basic techniques are very difficult for me to understand from written instructions. For example, I never got the whole thing about using the reflection of a board's edge to keep a vertical cut, but one day I saw a video and it took me 10 secs to "get it". I also think the best practitioners don't always make best teachers. Robert Rozieski is one of my favorite folks to follow just because he explains/shows all the nuances so well. While some of the established masters approach teaching as if they are doing you a favor. I was fortunate to see Malouf in action once and you could see he is so passionate about sharing what he knows, and that shows up in that way he demonstrated a technique. I suspect the reason "why" someone may be doing a teaching DVD may have a bearing on how they come out. With time more and more folks are putting up video tutorials on the web and it is going to become progressively difficult for the "masters" to keep teaching basic techniques and expect folks to buy DVDs for it.

that and a $1.20 will buy you a coke ;)

[Jim Koepke]

I don't know when cutting a dovetail became such a big deal
...



We may never know since it is believed to predate written history.



...

If Rob can get a rank beginner like me to produce a joint like the one below in just to days it must speak well of his abilities as a teacher.

...

Ed

This leads me back to a few of Rob's statements:




I added a page on my site, "student gallery".

...

BTW, Ed was in my class last year, he represents the kind of work I find in one or two of the eight I have in each class.


And also:



...
I made a comment a few years ago in a seminar that I had yet to see a properly sharpened plane or chisel show up in any of my classes, DC was in the audience and he commented that having taught since 1975 he had only seen it twice.
...


My guess is that Rob's "student gallery" only shows "the kind of work found (I find) in one or two of the eight I have in each class."

Add that to poorly sharpened tools and it is no wonder his students need a guide to show them the way.

The last time I was cutting some dovetails one saw was giving me all kinds of grief. A close inspection indicated it needed a bit of filing. This lit the proverbial light above my head as to why that saw was set aside months ago. After a sharpening session all was well again. Sure, a new saw might fix the situation much better, but this saw will do fine while I wait for the "new saw fairy."

Fortunately when I took up woodworking I found a few books on wooden joints and how to make them.

If my attempts had lead me to frustration, then I would likely be interested in taking a class promising to improve my abilities.

As it was, eventually my sharpening skills improved as have my sawing skills. I have not made a cabinet full of drawers with hundreds of "air tight" dovetails. Then again, I work mostly with pine that seems to move, warp and crack as it is being sawn.

My dovetails do look better in poplar and other hard woods.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Chairmaking is complex, and difficult to both do and teach. Some of the greatest Windsor makers most often take only one student at a time, e.g. Curtis, Dave Sawyer, Pete Galbert. They tend to live humbly and simply, so the education is not a commodity. Not a lot of self promotion, and no teaching to the least common denominator. A week spent like that is not just sawing and chiseling to a line- it is a life experience...

That's what I did at Homestead Heritage for the Craftsman rocking chair class, a private 6-day tutorial by Stan. It was fantastic.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam: Nothing wrong with posting pictures of your work. They can be educational,and sometimes inspirational. I think pictures are great. Apparently most here do,too,since many post pictures. If it "takes you out of the moment",wait till the moment is over,then take the pictures. Pictures show more than words can in most cases.

A few years ago I started making small scenes in boxes, just because that's where I went. I posted photos on the WC design forum and only one person said he liked them (a very good person, Steve Thomson of loopy infill fame), but no one else posted any reply. I didn't like the way I reacted to that.

Pam

[george wilson]

It doesn't mean that others didn't like it. Many just don't bother to post a reply. You might have inspired someone to try making the boxes. If you posted no pictures,no one would have been inspired. I often post something nice,and get very few replies.

[Ed Looney]

Perhaps there is a real good reason the "how to DVD market" is flourishing. Could it possibly be demand for qualified instruction? It seems like there isn't any demand for the "learn it all by yourself kit". Or could it be that the poor marketing approach of learn on your own by whining about the success of others? Either way the market will decide which approach is best just like it always has.
My bet is that sour grapes is never going to sell.


Ed

[george wilson]

I have seen David's work,and it is fine. I don't think you refer to me,but both the boxes I made for Queen Elizabeth were dovetailed. I only got pictures of 1 taken,and unfortunately,it doesn't show the dovetails very well. You can be sure that Jay Gaynor examined the gifts,and would not have let them get out to her if they weren't of highest quality.

The dovetails on the Queen's box were so tight,I did not want to put glue into them. Instead,if you look at the top edges of the back corners,you will see black dots. These are ebony pins about 1/8" diameter,that I turned and drilled down through the dovetails. They can never come apart in either direction. The brass piece on the top of the box is turned to mirror the handle on the saffron pot. The feet are William and Mary style. The screws in the brass parts are fire blued iron,as was the practice in the period. They didn't use brass screws since they didn't have cold drawn brass,and small screws would have wrung off. As usual,upper management waited until beyond the last second to order this gift made,so there was just not enough time to get the brass parts silver plated. I think we got this gift done about 2 days before the presentation. Just time enough for a picture by our Audio Visual Dept..

I also made the latch on the boxes,adding the little thumb catch to make it classier. You can't buy them like that.

My toolbox has about 80 dovetails in it,including sliding dovetails(housing joints). I did not have the opportunity to go to any training classes,though I will not say that there are not those who need them.

The heavy old toolbox has been around since 1970,and has gotten moved about and beaten up a bit. My usual bad,fuzzy photos of the tool box.

[Ed Looney]

If you can already saw straight and chisel accurately,I don't think it's a big deal either. When I needed to make my first dovetails,I just did it.

George
Yes and when I need to learn how to run a machining process that I have never run before I just set it up and start. Granted I have been doing machine work for just shy of 30 years and have thousands of hours to reference when looking for answers. What you aren't seeing is that some people don't do wood work as their day job they do it as a hobby and don't have the hours of working in the trade as a foundation when they do something new. What do people do when they have little background to reference and try something new? Well the smart one's go learn from someone who has those hours of experience to speed them on their path of learning.

Ed

[george wilson]

If you read my post,I said I WON'T say that there aren't people who don't need classes. After all,some people buy plans for just about any simple project. I've seen plans for sale for toilet paper holders. What's a lear path of learning ?

I have gone into many new fields myself,and still haven't had training classes. Guess I'm not one of the smart ones?

I even defended Cosman early in this thread,when someone accused him of being without heart or soul. In fact,I did it twice.

Anyway,he asked for pictures. Too bad I seldom got around to taking pictures,not that they interrupted me,I was just never good about photographing everything,and I now wish I had been.

I know David does good work. I even made him some brass parts for planes. I don't do that if it's a waste of time,and will end up on cruddy work.

[Jim Koepke]

Not nice Jim, no cherry picking here. I only started taking pics of the 2 day 24 hour dovetail degree class a year or so ago and the only guys that don't ge tposted are those that asked not to be or they got away before I got the camera out. Have you looked at the gallery or were you just making assumptions? Here is the math on the last four classes, Denver 6/10, Chicago 7/7, Boise 7/8 and Atlanta 9/9. You (not just Jim) like to down play the results, you like to belittle the students and you are suspicious of the teacher and his motives. I read from you how easy it is, how anyone with an ounce of coordination could do it on their own and how good you are at doing it but nobody wants to show us the MONEY!!! We hear how taking pictures interrupts you (really?), nobody said nice things to me when I posted before and my pine cracks up. I'm cracking up!! Brusha Up David, show us your work!

Yes, I looked at the gallery. Some nice images and dovetails. Your saying that you have about 400 students a year and the number of images on the page working out to about the number of students that equals about 1 or 2 students in each class led me to a conclusion that may not be the correct conclusion.

I am sorry, but I am not trying to belittle your students. Unless I am mistaken, I have only said that some people need help and some struggle on their own. I am one who is pretty much self taught. I also said in a previous post that this is not something that will work for everyone.

You mentioned never seeing a student bring a properly sharpened plane or chisel to class. My attempts to sharpen plane blades and chisels would have been in that camp a few years ago. If a person can not sharpen a chisel, they likely will not be able to make a decent dovetail with a dull chisel.

I have not said it was easy. If my memory serves me my struggles have been related openly. You attribute to me accusations I have not made and things I have not said. That is not a way to win anyone's favor.

I have posted many pictures and have never said they interrupt my work. If people comment that is OK, if not, that is also OK. Compared to a lot of the work I have seen here my work usually doesn't even rate a mediocre. Just the same, I am happy with what I have done. Even some of my mediocre work has opened up new ideas to others. Even though they were a little crude and not original to me, some folks had never seen dovetail joints shaped like hearts, simple yet fun.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?95360-Lovetail-Experiment-amp-Practice

If you have read many of my posts, you would know that I am of the thought that people should "give it a go" after all, what is there to lose? A person will likely gain something from the doing and nothing from the sitting and fretting. A weekend trying to cut dovetails does not a lifetime of bad habits make.

One quote from my last post says a lot:


If my attempts had lead me to frustration, then I would likely be interested in taking a class promising to improve my abilities.

I do not see how that, or much else that I have posted, is casting suspicion on what you do. Some people need guides or instructors, some people can find their way without them.

If you find that or anything else from me offensive, then I am sorry.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

It doesn't mean that others didn't like it. Many just don't bother to post a reply. You might have inspired someone to try making the boxes. If you posted no pictures,no one would have been inspired. I often post something nice,and get very few replies.

I wanted a conversation about what I was trying to do, to guide me. I realized that most people in woodworking forums basically aren't interested. That's OK, I don't take it personally; but it also means that I can't see my way clear to post photos of my work, waste of time and effort.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

It seems like there isn't any demand for the "learn it all by yourself kit". Or could it be that the poor marketing approach of learn on your own by whining about the success of others? Either way the market will decide which approach is best just like it always has.

Is someone whining about the success of others?

I thought of Sawmill Creek as on of the best tools in the learn it by yourself kit. Just look at all the videos on YouTube teaching people how to do it yourself. It is just that many of the individuals involved are not trying to make money at it. Instead, they are trying to give away what they know. Bob Smalser and I posted information on things one can do to rehabilitate old planes. Did you see anything from him or me "whining" that others published books on the subject or that Johnny Kleso has a reprint on his web site of another article on fixing up old planes? I don't think so. A few members here have sent me PMs that they have copied and printed some of my posts for their own use. Do I whine about that? No, inside it makes me happy that someone else has benefited from my efforts.

BTW, one asked permission, just for the record anything I have posted does not require asking my permission to print and use or share. If you are going to publish it and get rich, then I am interested in a percentage. If you can figure out a way to get rich off of it, then I don't even require that much of a percentage.:D

BTW, DIY is big business for mass marketing by the likes of HD, Lowes and Ace Hardware.

Oh, don't forget the DIY Network, they aren't whining, they are doing.

jtk

[Zahid Naqvi]

My wife and I have come to an agreement. She now encourages me to buy all the woodworking videos I want, the longer the better. My side of the bargain is that when I put the video in, she lies down on the couch and I give her a foot rub or scalp massage while I watch. Her falling asleep means I've done my part! :D

The most useful post in the whole thread :eek:;):D

[Jim Neeley]

The most useful post in the whole thread :eek:;):D

No doubt, Zahid!!! And its corollary... if my son (and I) use a new tool to make something especially for mamma, she feels it was a good investment!! :D

[Ed Looney]

Is someone whining about the success of others?
BTW, DIY is big business for mass marketing by the likes of HD, Lowes and Ace Hardware.

Oh, don't forget the DIY Network, they aren't whining, they are doing.

jtk
Jim
As Paul Harvey would say, "and now for the rest of the story". Mike Holmes is getting rich fixing the work of "contractors" who watched a couple of episodes of DIY or spent a few hours on Youtube and thought they could lay tile, do the plumbing and rewire the home.

Ed

[David Weaver]

There have been a couple of times that I posted something wanted critical discussion, and guidance on design especially, and george was the only person to speak up.

Specifically on saw handles and planes, and it was an issue where the stuff looked OK, but I knew it didn't look like I wanted it to but I wasn't exactly sure why. There were too many people who wanted to be polite, which is nice, but not always productive.

I'm pretty sure I put pictures of the last three things I did with dovetails on here. They're in steel and brass. Technically, two of them are pins on pins with secondary bevels. I didn't have to take a class to do them, but on those (unlike wood), i cut short of the scribe lines. When I wanted to learn to do that, I asked someone some brief questions - a craftsman - and got advice. It was pretty simple. Nobody pimped anything at me or described all of the ways I'd come up short without their assistance.

When I see a thread like this where some people are actually making a living as a craftsman or something related (the rest of us make a living elsewhere), I see two types of people. The Georges of the world ....and others. I know where I'll seek advice.

[Jim Koepke]

Mike Holmes is getting rich fixing the work of "contractors" who watched a couple of episodes of DIY or spent a few hours on Youtube and thought they could lay tile, do the plumbing and rewire the home.

Contractors doing poor quality work were around long before DIY Network or even the internet and cable TV for that matter.

What makes you think those contractors even bothered to watch DIY or Youtube?

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Contractors doing poor quality work were around long before DIY Network or even the internet and cable TV for that matter.

What makes you think those contractors even bothered to watch DIY or Youtube?

jtk
LOL - good comment. And so true.

One thing I've noticed in the past few years. Either I'm getting lucky or the trade people are getting better. I had some remodel work done recently and the quality of the work was outstanding, except for one guy - the painter (who also did drywall). He wasn't a bad painter but he wasn't up to quality level of the rest of the people.

Most of them came through the general contractor so I guess he's had time to find good people. In talking with friends who work in the trades (and are good) they're telling me that they have more work than they can handle - they have a backlog - so it looks like things are starting to pick up a bit.

Mike

[george wilson]

If there is anyone I HATE working with,it is a contractor. I spent weeks designing my new shop building. Repeatedly I had to make them go back and re do stuff because they didn't follow the drawings. They put the windows in about a foot off the ground. They made the stair too steep. The first day I came out here(wasn't living here yet),and found the bricklayers putting the garage door in the wrong place. They hadn't been given the latest drawings,which I HAD given the contractor a week or 2 before. The building is a quality building,but I did pay a premium price for it,and it was uphill all the way. I made them do everything right.

Years before we got this house,I had trouble with painters painting my old house. I wanted the paint scraped from the glass where they carelessly slopped paint on it."I don't see why I should be punished" one said. Heck!! I didn't know I was punishing him. I thought I was employing him!!

Most of the time I have been lucky enough to hire Williamsburg maintenance men. They work to a higher standard,and do not leave their mess laying around. I had even had a painter spill a gallon of red paint on the concrete driveway,and just leave it there. I think painters are really the worst of the contractors I dealt with in getting this house refurbished. I finally fired one guy and finished up myself.

[Ed Looney]

Contractors doing poor quality work were around long before DIY Network or even the internet and cable TV for that matter.

What makes you think those contractors even bothered to watch DIY or Youtube?

jtk

Jim
You may want to consider why there is even a market for a TV program called Disaster DIY? The networks are making big bucks off of people watching Youtube and DIY how to programs and getting it wrong.
The one show that made me stop watching most of the programs was a guy using a finish nail gun to put molding on drywall. He put a fastener every 4 inches. I guess no one ever told the guy that you can fasten drywall to wood but you can't fasten wood to drywall. Especially with a pin nailer. I bet some guy or gal who watched the program went out and bought a finish nail gun and thought he could actually apply molding to drywall. Gee it worked on TV and it only took 30 minutes.

PS Back at ya. What makes you think those contractors didn't watch DYI or Youtube?

Ed

[Mark Baldwin III]

I'm pretty sure I put pictures of the last three things I did with dovetails on here. They're in steel and brass. Technically, two of them are pins on pins with secondary bevels. I didn't have to take a class to do them, but on those (unlike wood), i cut short of the scribe lines. When I wanted to learn to do that, I asked someone some brief questions - a craftsman - and got advice. It was pretty simple. Nobody pimped anything at me or described all of the ways I'd come up short without their assistance.



That reminds me very much of my recent conversations with Matt at Gabardi & Son. I watched his video and sent him an e-mail to say thanks for sharing his craft. I'd never seen how metal dovetails were made. We've talked a bit and he's given me all sorts of good advice. The only tool he even remotely "pimped" was a hacksaw from Starrett. And that was just because he liked it so much. BTW...I ended up buying a Lennox saw and a bunch of Starrett blades. The beginnings of my first metal DT's are in the shop right now, with most of the thanks going to Matt for the inspiration to give it a shot. The guy is totally humble and open to sharing, just the type I like to deal with.
I owe much of my other hobby (noisy British choppers) to craftsmen of similar heart. My first phone conversation with one vendor that I deal with (and enjoy dealing with) was 45 minutes long...and I hadn't bought a thing! It has now turned into a nearly four year long distance friendship. My former boss is the same way. Humble teacher, no ego, just nuts, bolts and knowledge. I don't think a single person has taught me more about turning wrenches than he has.
Those are the mentors that I'm drawn to.

[Mike Henderson]

Jim
You may want to consider why there is even a market for a TV program called Disaster DIY? The networks are making big bucks off of people watching Youtube and DIY how to programs and getting it wrong.
The one show that made me stop watching most of the programs was a guy using a finish nail gun to put molding on drywall. He put a fastener every 4 inches. I guess no one ever told the guy that you can fasten drywall to wood but you can't fasten wood to drywall. Especially with a pin nailer. I bet some guy or gal who watched the program went out and bought a finish nail gun and thought he could actually apply molding to drywall. Gee it worked on TV and it only took 30 minutes.

PS Back at ya. What makes you think those contractors didn't watch DYI or Youtube?

Ed
Even if it worked, you wouldn't want a nail every 4" because then you have to go back and fill all those nail holes.

But if you're doing painted crown, the real thing holding it up is the caulk you put in the top and bottom seams.

Mike

[Ed Looney]

Mike
When I put up the dental crown in my living room I used long finish nails and shot where the dental detail would later be applied. I was able to nail into the double top plate behind the drywall and fasten it securely with two and a half inch finish nails. The best part was that I was able to apply the dental detail and cover the nail holes saving me a bunch of time filling and sanding.

Ed

[David Weaver]

That reminds me very much of my recent conversations with Matt at Gabardi & Son. I watched his video and sent him an e-mail to say thanks for sharing his craft. I'd never seen how metal dovetails were made. We've talked a bit and he's given me all sorts of good advice. The only tool he even remotely "pimped" was a hacksaw from Starrett. And that was just because he liked it so much. BTW...I ended up buying a Lennox saw and a bunch of Starrett blades. The beginnings of my first metal DT's are in the shop right now, with most of the thanks going to Matt for the inspiration to give it a shot. The guy is totally humble and open to sharing, just the type I like to deal with.
I owe much of my other hobby (noisy British choppers) to craftsmen of similar heart. My first phone conversation with one vendor that I deal with (and enjoy dealing with) was 45 minutes long...and I hadn't bought a thing! It has now turned into a nearly four year long distance friendship. My former boss is the same way. Humble teacher, no ego, just nuts, bolts and knowledge. I don't think a single person has taught me more about turning wrenches than he has.
Those are the mentors that I'm drawn to.

Anyone who tells someone who going to make metal planes by hand that they should buy a very good hacksaw is doing them a favor. Of course, that's like a $25-$40 proposition, so it's not exactly baiting you to empty your wallet.

I have a lenox saw, as long as you got one with the solid back and a really strong tensioner, you'll be really pleased with it.

Did you comb cut a section and touch the blade yet? :) Even the little bits of metal dust that come out when you use a coarse blade will burn you...it all gets incredibly hot.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Anyone who tells someone who going to make metal planes by hand that they should buy a very good hacksaw is doing them a favor. Of course, that's like a $25-$40 proposition, so it's not exactly baiting you to empty your wallet.

I have a lenox saw, as long as you got one with the solid back and a really strong tensioner, you'll be really pleased with it.

Did you comb cut a section and touch the blade yet? :) Even the little bits of metal dust that come out when you use a coarse blade will burn you...it all gets incredibly hot.
If the light is right, and you're looking really really close, you can see a puff of smoke come off that thing! Matt's advice was pretty simple (to summarize): get a GOOD high tension saw and a lot of files. I had trouble finding the Starrett he recommended, but I heard good things about the Lennox, so I got that. He seemed to be a huge fan of the Starrett blades, though...so I grabbed a pack.
I have one set of tails cut into a practice piece, with some filing left to do. I want to try the comb saw and cold chisel method, I just have to remember where my small cold chisel is. I have to order some steel to make the new axle for my chopper, so I'll probably order up some brass with it for plane making. This slope sure is slippery.

[Johnny Kleso]

Anyone who tells someone who going to make metal planes by hand that they should buy a very good hacksaw is doing them a favor. Of course, that's like a $25-$40 proposition, so it's not exactly baiting you to empty your wallet.

I have a lenox saw, as long as you got one with the solid back and a really strong tensioner, you'll be really pleased with it.

Did you comb cut a section and touch the blade yet? :) Even the little bits of metal dust that come out when you use a coarse blade will burn you...it all gets incredibly hot.

I have a Starrett, Lenox, Nicholson and mid-grade Craftsman..
I loved my Starrett and bought the Lenox @eBay cheap to stop having to change blades from coarse to fine..
My friend Ian send me a pic of him and Karl Holtey in his shop and Karl has like six hack saws on the wall..
I asked, whats up with all the hack saws?
Ian says Kael says they are the best and bought a bunch in case they stop making them..
I bought one and its the best..
Nice rubber on front and rear grip..
Just feels good while sawing :)

http://www.amazon.com/Nicholson-80965-12-Inch-Tension-Hacksaw/dp/B00002N5KS
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31T91M0ZNXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
I was just surfing Amazon and this Greenlee looks even better and free shipping too
http://www.amazon.com/Greenlee-333A-Cast-Aluminum-Hacksaw/dp/B001HWDXF4/ref=pd_sbs_indust_23

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/310ExxxZLzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[george wilson]

I am the only person the Master Gunsmith said he ever saw using cutting oil on a hacksaw blade. He admitted it made sense. A person can only sustain about 1/10 H.P.. Make the most of it!!

[Johnny Kleso]

I use band saw wax comes in 2" od tube about 12" long for steel cutting

196506

[David Weaver]

Will the bandsaw wax and/or cutting fluid tolerate the heat of the hacksaw blade and not smoke off? I have some bandsaw wax floating around, and I don't use the bandsaw often enough to worry about saving the wax for it.

[Stuart Tierney]

Will the bandsaw wax and/or cutting fluid tolerate the heat of the hacksaw blade and not smoke off? I have some bandsaw wax floating around, and I don't use the bandsaw often enough to worry about saving the wax for it.

Trefolex.

Get some. Don't care where, just get some.

Thank me later. ;)

[george wilson]

Can you buy less than a 1# can for $65.70 ?

[Jim Koepke]

PS Back at ya. What makes you think those contractors didn't watch DYI or Youtube?

Ed

Well, at least the ones that were around before the Youtube or the DIY Network didn't watch.

BTW, Someone said "learn to do it yourself" didn't have a market.


It seems like there isn't any demand for the "learn it all by yourself kit".

My point is not about the quality of DIY.

My point is that there is a rather big market for the learn to do it yourself market.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

There have been a couple of times that I posted something wanted critical discussion, and guidance on design especially, and george was the only person to speak up.

Specifically on saw handles and planes, and it was an issue where the stuff looked OK, but I knew it didn't look like I wanted it to but I wasn't exactly sure why. There were too many people who wanted to be polite, which is nice, but not always productive.



Then there might be some of us who miss your post and wouldn't have anything to add other than "looks good."

I have no idea of all the details of a saw handle. I have learned a little from George's comments on what makes a strong and traditional saw handle.

Sometime in the future, I will make a saw handle or two. Currently my garden, chickens and finding wood for next winter has my time fairly well occupied.

jtk

[Robert Miller]

I think that $29 bucks is a bargain for about an hours instructional DVD from a pro that I can keep studying, be it Rob Cosman or David Charlesworth . All this carping about who is better etc. is just foolish IMHO. As far as arguing about quality tools , I'll fall back on the Master, James Krenov who said:

" You can't tune a Stradivarius, with a monkey wrench"

[george wilson]

There seems to be carping about several issues going on.:)Who is better,DO you need classes,etc..

[john brenton]

When I would do remodels on my own time I would go into the walls and under these houses built in the 30's and 40's, and with the exception of very few homes, they all displayed total craftsmanship. The cast iron piping was almost always perfectly graded, the hubs carefully lead caulked, and thoughtfully strapped. The framing all fit flawlessly and cleanly.

After filling in for a lead plumber on the tract homes I swore I'd never buy a new home. There are very few contractors that really give a hoot, and even fewer employees that do. The employees that do care either get rushed to do crud work, or have some kind of substance abuse problem that hinders them. Anywho, here I am in a house built in 2008. I was the first one on the block and as I watched the other homes on the street being built my biggest fears were confirmed. Absolute garbage. No supervision, inspectors that were in and out in 1 minute, etc etc.

There's my rant.



If there is anyone I HATE working with,it is a contractor. I spent weeks designing my new shop building. Repeatedly I had to make them go back and re do stuff because they didn't follow the drawings. They put the windows in about a foot off the ground. They made the stair too steep. The first day I came out here(wasn't living here yet),and found the bricklayers putting the garage door in the wrong place. They hadn't been given the latest drawings,which I HAD given the contractor a week or 2 before. The building is a quality building,but I did pay a premium price for it,and it was uphill all the way. I made them do everything right.

Years before we got this house,I had trouble with painters painting my old house. I wanted the paint scraped from the glass where they carelessly slopped paint on it."I don't see why I should be punished" one said. Heck!! I didn't know I was punishing him. I thought I was employing him!!

Most of the time I have been lucky enough to hire Williamsburg maintenance men. They work to a higher standard,and do not leave their mess laying around. I had even had a painter spill a gallon of red paint on the concrete driveway,and just leave it there. I think painters are really the worst of the contractors I dealt with in getting this house refurbished. I finally fired one guy and finished up myself.

[Jim Neeley]

I think that $29 bucks is a bargain for about an hours instructional DVD from a pro that I can keep studying, be it Rob Cosman or David Charlesworth . All this carping about who is better etc. is just foolish IMHO. As far as arguing about quality tools , I'll fall back on the Master, James Krenov who said:

" You can't tune a Stradivarius, with a monkey wrench"

I think you're dead on regarding an hour of detailed hands on video for about $30 being a great value.. for those (like me) who are visual learners. For those who learn based on reading books.. tinkering in the shop or other techniques, it may not have as much value...

As for me, I'll choose watching (or rewatching) a WW video after a day in the shop.. or when I get home too late to head down there.

I further agree the "who is best" is foolish... and that Krenov quote is great! :D

[Ed Looney]

I think that $29 bucks is a bargain for about an hours instructional DVD from a pro that I can keep studying, be it Rob Cosman or David Charlesworth . All this carping about who is better etc. is just foolish IMHO. As far as arguing about quality tools , I'll fall back on the Master, James Krenov who said:

" You can't tune a Stradivarius, with a monkey wrench"

Actually I think you are right on the money about who is better. Who is better depends on how one views a dovetail joint and where you want to go with your craft. If a person views a dovetail as utilitarian and necessary to properly join wood at right angles then Frank Klausz or Jim Kingshott are good. If one likes Japanese tools then I recommend Kingshott because his work utilizes Japanese chisels. If a person mixes hand and power tools and wants to make utilitarian dovetails then Klausz is good. However if a person views a dovetail joint as not only being structural but as a design feature (craftsman furniture influence) Then I recommend Rob Cosman. Rob elevates the dovetail to a design feature that is celebrated for it's beauty as well as strength. Green and Green as well as Stickley furniture are good examples of celebrating joinery as a design feature.
None of these men make bad dovetails but their philosophy on the purpose of the dovetail is made evident by their instruction. Can someone watch all three and learn from all of them? Yes absolutely.

PS I haven't gotten the Charlesworth Dovetail DVD yet, I bet it is good. I hope to have a copy of it soon.

Ed Looney

[Ed Looney]

Jim
I will gladly recognize that people are hungry for skill. People want the skill to do it on their own. The determining factor is how fast do you want it and how refined do you want it to be once you get some of it.

Ed

[Paul Incognito]

Jim
I will gladly recognize that people are hungry for skill. People want the skill to do it on their own. The determining factor is how fast do you want it and how refined do you want it to be once you get some of it.

Ed

As a full time remodeling contractor, I'll correct you. People aren't hungry for skill, they're trying to save a buck.
I've come behind some homeowner remodels (I'm working on one right now) that were downright scary. Jacks for structural headers that were never posted down, undersized framing, live wires cut, taped and buried behind drywall, plumbing that would make Rube Goldberg shudder, it goes on and on.
I agree with John, the craftsmanship of yesterday is all but gone. It's been replaced with low bid subcontractors that cut corners ether because they have to in order to make money at the bid price or because they were incompetent to begin with.
I could go on...
Paul

[george wilson]

I can vouch for that,Paul. I have found a load of incompetent home brewed stuff that has been done to this 1949 house. Bad wiring and all. All the doors had been sawn off about 1 1/2" short probably in the 70's to install shag carpeting. I honestly think they were sawn off with a chain saw. I planed all the door bottoms smooth and added wood back on. Then,I sanded them so the new wood wouldn't show when painted. Then,the doors turned out to be so much trouble to get the many coats of old paint off of,I bought all new doors and installed them myself. The kitchen had 4 layers of different crud we had to scrape off. There was just a ton of stuff we had to do to get the house back in shape. Most of it caused by messes made by some jack leg idiot.

[Ed Looney]

As a full time remodeling contractor, I'll correct you. People aren't hungry for skill, they're trying to save a buck.
Paul

Paul
I will accept a partial correction because there are some that are only motivated by saving that buck. But I ask you to recognize that the buck sword has two sides. One side is saving a buck the other is making a quick buck. Please recognize that there are contractors out there who are in it for a quick buck and that may motivate people like me to get the skills so they can at least get the job done right. A quick buck and craftsmanship don't go well together so it is hard to find anyone who will do it to my standards. Nothing worse than paying someone to do it wrong. That is why I am one of those who are hungry for the skills to do the job right. To be honest I don't believe that the hungary for skills description above is totally exclusive to me. There are those who are so disgusted with finding a competent contractor that in desperation seek the skills to get the job done right.

Ed Looney

[Eddie Darby]

[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3]It's my opinion Rob that much of the push back that you get from people, (myself included) on these forums has to do with the delivery and tone of your dialogue. I don't think that it is any coincidence that the other instructors mentioned in this thread tend to let their "product" speak for itself - they rarely if ever engage in a thread like you do and when they do they do so graciously and respectfully regardless of the origianal poster's position. I have found these qualities lacking in your responses.

Perhaps other instructors have a 'fear' of replying to a thread that is aimed at assassinating their character, and solely started for the purpose of baiting and trapping.
Thread title: "Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?166464-Charlesworth-vs-Coseman-Videos)" says it all.

The internet is full of people who are spreading the "spirit of division", some without even realizing it or intending it on purpose, others not so innocent.
I think they had them back in the old days too, the same bunch chasing and hampering St. Paul, with signs I am for Peter, or Apollos, I am for Jesus etc.
Yes we have threads like "Thread: Worksharp vs veritas power sharpener (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?166667-Worksharp-vs-veritas-power-sharpener) " but surely there is a difference between comparing machines, and comparing people.

How do I benefit from someone's opinion about what they 'like' or 'dislike'? Even if they preface it with IMHO.
Just because someone 'likes' mustard on their hot dog, isn't going to help someone else decide for the first time if they should 'like' mustard as well.

I have learned, over the years, from numerous instructors.
From all different walks of life, and yes some I enjoyed more than others, but to ALL I owe a debt of gratitude to them, for sharing their Time, Treasure, and Talent, regardless of the value of that instruction.

If any of these instructors ever started a thread asking for my opinion, so that they could become better instructors, and if I thought my opinion was of some value, then I would consider giving it, but I would never consider giving it, when not asked first. To do so would be to enter into gossip, which has no good benefit for all involved.

Please Moderators, in the future when someone gives their opinion about someone else, and they were not asked by that person, shut down the thread right away, and save everybody a lot of negative consequences.

Sow to the wind, reap the whirlwind.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Ed, the original poster asked for recommendations on whose dvd to buy. We responded, perhaps not as graciously as we could have; but it was all response. And no, no way do many of us wait for the maker of such dvds to request our opinion. What would be the point? This forum exists because the posters want the opinions of other woodworkers.

Pam

[Johnny Kleso]

DARBY,
I dont like you saying it was my intent to start an arguement...
When I wrote that I didn't think people had axes to grind with one of the instructor because he had an opinion different that theirs..

People compare two different things on this forum several times a day here..
None I have ever read, where trying start an arguement in my opinion........
So why do you say my intent was to cause one?

In my mind your very belligerent person to say my intent was to make people argue..
My intent was to start a discussion on wood working Teachers and who makes the best DVDs to buy..

You brought the topic of religon up like you know something about it, yet you make false statements against me...

[Mike Henderson]

As a full time remodeling contractor, I'll correct you. People aren't hungry for skill, they're trying to save a buck...
Paul
I certainly learned how to do various projects around the house to save a buck - I couldn't afford to hire people to do the work. I also found that I could control the quality if I did the project. It might have taken me all day to do a project that a professional could do in a couple of hours but I had the time and didn't have the money. I made some mistakes but I got better with each project.

I also learned that having a professional do the work did not guarantee a quality result.

Mike

[Gary Hodgin]

I certainly learned how to do various projects around the house to save a buck - I couldn't afford to hire people to do the work. I also found that I could control the quality if I did the project. It might have taken me all day to do a project that a professional could do in a couple of hours but I had the time and didn't have the money. I made some mistakes but I got better with each project.

I also learned that having a professional do the work did not guarantee a quality result.

Mike

+1 Same experience with "professionals." More accurately described as someone you pay fix something which may or may not get fixed. The key word is "pay."

[Josh Rudolph]

I certainly learned how to do various projects around the house to save a buck - I couldn't afford to hire people to do the work. I also found that I could control the quality if I did the project. It might have taken me all day to do a project that a professional could do in a couple of hours but I had the time and didn't have the money. I made some mistakes but I got better with each project.

I also learned that having a professional do the work did not guarantee a quality result.

Mike

+2 to this.

The way I assess things is the cost of the project and if it is something I could benefit from learning (or have a desire to).

Most of the time it turns out that I could attempt the repair 2-3 times before I reach the cost of hiring someone. And then there is no guarantee that the job is done to my expectation level.

This method has yet to bite me in the rear. But I am sure it eventually will.
However I have learned a great deal about vehicles, garden tractors, spray painting (interior walls), stove repair, dryer repair, the list goes on.
What I have saved in money has afforded my family and myself many other nice things.

Josh

[Jim Neeley]

Johnny & Eddie (& the Moderators),

I'm going to agree and disagree with both of you here... (and likely get banned from SMC for my post)

Eddie... Perhaps you know Johnny better than I or have some preconceived notion, I do not know. While Johnny's post did open the door for the character assassination attempts that occurred what he said did not directly start it. IMO it should have caught the eye of the Moderators to follow the thread closely (or would have me on another forum I moderate).

The thread *could* have developed in a helpful way... such as..

I like X's videos because they show more close-ups..
I like Y's videos because I think they better explain the *why* for each action...

..but it didn't.

Johnny... there were posts starting on that very first page that took this thread very personal. They went on to attacking the students of one instructor sufficiently that they jumped in to defend their students, opening themselves up to further attack. IMO, the original poster of any thread should make it known (and be very vocal) when their original post is being twisted into a character attack, (since it was not their intent).

Moderators... I'm with Eddie that this thread should have had strong moderator involvement starting with the first page, warning that such behavior will not be tolerated, unless character assassination is part of the community you wish to develop.

I'll stick up my hand and say I was remiss... I should have brought the Moderator's attention to this thread. Perhaps a few others feel this way too?

Hindsight is 20/20.

[george wilson]

I don't see how anyone could take Johnny's thread title as an invitation to personal attacks. We can't always closely monitor every word we type,and the "vs" in the title apparently is the word in question here. Does "versus" necessarily mean something negative? I'm going to have to look up the exact and correct meaning of the word,(just to make sure of its use),but I doubt if it was used in an intentionally negative way to start the thread.

Johnny mentioned the content of the DVD that he didn't care for,the time given for sharpening. That was not an attack on the character of the teacher.

Edit: vs: It just means "in contrast to",or "as opposed to". Nothing negative there.

[James Taglienti]

Great thread, ran it's course by about page 6, but I still read the whole thing. I have never watched a sharpening or dovetailing video. Would you guys suggest one by Cosman or Charlesworth?:D

[Mark Baldwin III]

Great thread, ran it's course by about page 6, but I still read the whole thing. I have never watched a sharpening or dovetailing video. Would you guys suggest one by Cosman or Charlesworth?:D

You almost made my Schlitz come out of my nose:eek:

This thread has actually been quite informative, though.

[Johnny Kleso]

Great thread, ran it's course by about page 6, but I still read the whole thing. I have never watched a sharpening or dovetailing video. Would you guys suggest one by Cosman or Charlesworth?:D

Charlesworth for precision layout and Frank Kluasz on the fly no measuring..

Frank Klausz if I had to pick one method to use..

[Allan Froehlich]

...but he comes off so arrogant

Thank You! I agree %100. I cannot get past his attitude.