What's good for the goose.....

[Bob Lemon]

Has anyone noticed that when Ken posts pictures of his work or last weeks get together of XPonders, that he uses a hot link to get to the pictures. The picture page also has a hot link to his home page, then hot linked to his store. On these pages, he quotes prices, and accepts credit cards for payment. He also has the Saw Mill Creek logo at his web site. If Ken can do it, then should be able to do it too. I see no reason why Ken could not remove the hot link to his home page.

Please leave this string up so others may see the response. Thank you, Bob

[Steve Clardy]

has since the new ruling took effect.

[Jason Roehl]

As Steve said, Ken hasn't done this since the "crackdown" on linking to other sites. It would be important to note that Ken's hosting of the EoP pics was intended to be temporary until something more suitable and/or permanent (on the internet?) was arranged and finalized. Yeah, he's got links to the rest of his site from that page and maybe that's heading into the gray area...who knows.

Personally, I appreciate the efforts by Keith, Ray, Jackie, Aaron and Ken to keep this corner of the web clean and commercial-free. Sometimes, I'm sure that means they have to be a little stricter than they'd like, but that's necessary to keep the commercial places from creeping in and taking over. Unfortunately, not all Mom&Pop operations are as virtuous as we think we all are.

Anyway, as long as Keith&co. are doing the footwork and writing the checks, I'll abide by their wishes concerning the governance of this site. If it gets to the point that I have to ask permission to logon, I'll go elsewhere. Until then, I'm not going to waste my time fighting "the system," instead I'm going to enjoy what's offered here.

[Paul Kunkel]

Originally posted by Bob Lemon
Has anyone noticed that when Ken posts pictures of his work or last weeks get together of XPonders, that he uses a hot link to get to the pictures. The picture page also has a hot link to his home page, then hot linked to his store. On these pages, he quotes prices, and accepts credit cards for payment. He also has the Saw Mill Creek logo at his web site. If Ken can do it, then should be able to do it too. I see no reason why Ken could not remove the hot link to his home page.

Please leave this string up so others may see the response. Thank you, Bob
:mad: Too much power can and will corrupt the best (worst). We need for the rules to be listed - the power restored- and all properly registered Creekers right to post. Democracy!!!

[John Miliunas]

Personally, I guess I never really noticed that nor did I care. Still, I can see Keith's position on this and why some folks may have addressed their concern to Keith & Co. regarding the links, as they have been presented. After giving it some serious thought, I can see where some folks may construe the links, especially in a signature file, as a sales banner or even "pop-up" and we all know how much we just "love" all those at other web sites we visit!:D That may sound like a dramatic comparison, but when you think about it, I think it's viable. Like I said, I could care less, but let's try to see Keith's side of it!

If it weren't for the fact that there's that handy-dandy "WWW" button, I may be a bit less "understanding". I would, however, still comply with it. Yes, we may all be a Community and may even feel close, like family or close friends, but the way I see it, in the final analysis, we are still "guests". Just because I go to my Dad's place for a visit, does not mean I can go in there rearrange his furniture to suit my taste or comfort. I don't go to my best buddy's house and commence to resorting his CD collection, so that it looks like mine. And, Keith did say that we can still include links in the message to relevant sites. If it's *your* site that you recommend to people, simply state that and instruct them to hit the "WWW" button. Hey, just my $00.02. :cool:

[Keith Outten]

To be perfectly honest I hadn't even been paying attention to the links people were using in their posts. It was brought to my attention via email.

I have hundreds of email messages from people who requested that we keep the rules close to Badger Ponds when we started SMC. We have not been quite as strict as Wayne was, our thinking was that we wanted to be as open as possible. Our flexibility caused us to lose a lot of members and some refused to join SMC because we were not enforcing Badger Ponds rules to the letter.

The idea of commercial posting was never flexible, every email I received was definitely against any commercial content. Every rule we have implemented has been at the request of the masses, not my personal preference...so much for my King status and I'm laughing at the thought of being a King, thanks for the sentiment :)

There are 967 members here, there must be some kind of organization to keep everything going smooth. We have not publicly posted the rules to date as we have been watching and listening to see where the best fit would be for everyone. It is impossible to make everyone absolutely happy and we all must accept some level of compromise. I will make our rules, legal and privacy statements public by this weekend so that there will not be any further misunderstandings. There will not be any surprises when the rules are posted, I prefer to be flexible except where commercial content is concerned.

We have not banned or threatened to ban anyone to date. I have deleted a few user accounts for not complying with the First and Last Name rule. Jackie is working as fast as she can sending email to those who registered early on and did not understand this policy, many registered before we made the rule. Rather than threaten people we figured we would be patient and they would get the picture and request that we edit their usernames, most have. This is another rule that we have discussed publicly and the majority prefer...this rule has also caused many people to leave or not register at SMC. We have enforced it because the majority wanted it this way.

In the future I would ask that people not be so quick to judge the decisions of any staff member. We are trying to keep almost 1000 people happy and we work long hours as volunteers. Jackie and I are expending a lot of our personal time getting the hats, jackets, aprons, etc going for everyone right now. Aaron is working on a program for SMC auctions, a new web design for the board, new chat software and a slick new interface for shop tours that is unlike anything you have ever seen. Aaron will be graduating from CNU in May and his contributions here have been absolutely fantastic considering his college workload...and without benefit of compensation. I hope that we will be able to compensate Aaron in the future from the proceeds of the SMC gift shop as Aaron will be going on to graduate school this fall and programing pays his tuition. Aaron and I are working on a bid for a local company that requested a paperless office system so we have not been able to volunteer as much time at SMC lately. Ken has logged countless hours putting the SMC tips page together, helping people with their avatars and graphics and now volunteers as the moderator for the main forum.

The End-o-Pond pictures that Ken hosts I offered to host publicly, I asked everyone to send me their pictures. Ken offered to host the pictures and do the html pages on his site to help reduce our workload. If Ken gets a little exposure for his efforts I really think he deserves some credit for contributing.

We have really enjoyed putting this project together, watching it grow and planing for the future of SMC. When we see over four gigabytes of traffic in one month we figure lots of people are enjoying SMC so we are encouraged to move forward in spite of our mistakes.

Enjoy!

[John Miliunas]

....Keith, Aaron, Ken, Jackie, et all! For whatever my humble opinion may be worth, you are all doing a wonderful job!:D :D

'Nuf said.....:cool:

[Jim Fuller]

I don't have any problems and feel more free to contribute here and even join the chat from time to time, SO, Thanks all, I know you put in lots of time and effort.
I for one really appreciate it.
Jim

[Dave Avery]

Well said Jason from the user's point of view, and Keith, from the owner's point of view.

[Lee Schierer]

I feel at least partly responsible here for stirring some of this up. I see no problem with the rule against linking to a commercial site where I have an interest. I see no problem to linking to a commercial or other site where the information requested can be found. If I do it to advertise for my own gain then I am taking unfair advantage of the free service here.

Also, there is a lot of talk about the site being a democracy. I'm afraid it is not and cannot be unless we all foot the bills and pay with our time, talent and money to keep it going. This is a service graciously provided by our hosts out of their good will. I for one appreciate all the work they do behind the scenes. The only vote I have is to participate or not.

If I owned the site then I would get to make the rules, otherwise I have to go along with the rules there are. That's not being a dictator, its just the way it is. If I want my own rules, then I'm free to start my own site. Even if they did publish rules 90% of us wouldn't read them.....

Keith Aaron, Jackie, Ken & others, keep up the good work.

[Ken Salisbury]

I sincerely hope no one gets bored with this lengthy response to Bob's post. He does make a good point in that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.. In response to the remaining points I offer the following:

Has anyone noticed that when Ken posts pictures of his work or last weeks get together of XPonders, that he uses a hot link to get to the pictures.

Immediately upon reading Keith's post I deleted the web site link from my signature. I too believe I should, and will, follow all the rules on my personal posts on this forum. I have in the past posted hot links to my web site for reader convenience (prior to Keith's decision). You will not see them in the future.

The picture page also has a hot link to his home page, then hot linked to his store. If Ken can do it, then should be able to do it too. I see no reason why Ken could not remove the hot link to his home page.

The link to my home page on the Picnic picture pages was a standard graphic link I use throughout my web site which help users navigate the site - (just like the SMC logo here on this site does). In order to eliminate the impression of impropriety I have removed that graphic link from the picnic picture pages. I have also edited the page to indicate that the pictures are provided with the compliments of SawMill Creek (with a link on SMC logo) and I have removed all references to Ken's Wood Central on those pages.

Please leave this string up so others may see the response. Thank you, Bob

As a moderator my postion is not to be a censor of views expressed by posters. This is a woodworkers community and everyone's views are welcomed by me and I am sure by Keith also. I have no intention of deleting this thread or any other one written in the same vien.

Keith said:

Ken offered to host the pictures and do the html pages on his site to help reduce our workload.
Considering the enormous about of time that Keith and his crew have spent on getting this forum up and running the way they have I feel I should contribute when and wherever I can to help that effort and will continue to do so.

If Ken gets a little exposure for his efforts I really think he deserves some credit for contributing.

I don't want credit or web site (which in reality is only a hobby) exposure for whatever I do here on this forum. I learned a long, long time ago that a community is only as good as the effort put forth by the residents of that community. This is a 'wood working community' and I will do what I can to make it as good as I can.

To be perfectly honest I hadn't even been paying attention to the links people were using in their posts. It was brought to my attention via email.

Same here !

[Ken Dolph]

Keith,

I love this place. I avoided Badger Pond. This avoidance of commercialism was one of the reasons.

I watched, many times, long threads dealing with the product that I sell. Most of the information was wrong. If I corrected it, I was just one more "voice crying in the wilderness". If I mentioned my site or even qualifications my link was gone. A hot link to my page would have establish my credability and given many of the answers that people are asking for.

The hot link is not like a pop up or SPAM. Nobody is forcing your mouse to click it. I have found many interesting sites by hot linking from forum threads.

Becaus there is the "www" button I am satisfied that people can see that I know what I am talking about and not just spouting hearsay.

As I said, I love it here. This is the best forum with the best software and the best bunch of cronies. Just don't get uptight because some are so obsessed with tight rules.

Thanks for being here.

Ken

[Bob Boake]

I've got to say I enjoy this site. Thanks to those who put their time and effort into making it a fun place. I appreciate the fact that no one can have a financial interest in promoting products here. Dropping links to personal sites is a natural extension of this policy.

[Dave Avery]

Ken,

You are a class act....... I'd like to add my thanks to you for all the time you spend to help make SMC as enjoyable as it is. While I understand the point that was being made, it's unfortunate that you have to spend even more time defending a position that should not require defense.

[Ian Barley]

The way I see it Keith - we are all in your front room drinking your beer from your fridge - I think you have the right to choose which TV channel we watch.

I know that you folks work hard at this for no reward. I for one appreciate you eforts. And thanks to Ken and the other moderators for helping to keep the place tidy and orderly - its what makes it comfortable.

Regards

[Keith Outten]

Hey...I'm still here and still smiling and there are absolutely no hard feelings toward anyone. We are all here to share and enjoy, we work our jobs and come here to be a part of this community.

Please don't forget that we have a really great Private Messaging system here. You can send any link and discuss money or business all you want using a Private Message. Private Messages are safe and spam free, you can only receive a PM from another member at SMC and we currently have PM configured to allow you to keep up to 70 messages.

Those of you who are active posters, thank you for participating at SMC and if there is a mistake made occasionally don't be concerned or worried about your status here at the Creek, those who do not participate never make mistakes.

Lets talk about woodworking.

[David Rose]

Bob calling Ken a "gander" or was that "goose". Either way it is way more complimentary than calling him the old coot, don't ya think? There should be something we can call old coots that will get under their skin without shortening their life.

David, rapidly approaching old coot status

[Bob Lemon]

David, I don't dare call Ken an 'Old Coot', after all, I'm only a few months younger! :D

I appreciate the change in clearing the air as to what is acceptable and what isn't. I really appreciate all the work the Administrators and Ken are doing to make this a great site! I have been dropping in every day, BUT, I haven't posted more because I don't type.... Sonja does, though she has been busy putting out newsletters. :(

Everyone have a nice Easter and great weekend!! Bob & Sonja

[Chris Teenor]

I do understand that commercial links should not be allowed; however, I don't think there was any malicious intent in what had been posted by Ken.

I can only speak for myself, but I do appreciate the opportunity to be a member here. I can feel free to give my opinion and I learn tons of things I need to know to make my hobby safer and more enjoyable. Therefore, I truly appreciate the work "behind the scenes" that is required to keep this forum on web.

Keep up the good work and know you're providing a valuable service to all of us who choose to visit and reside here.