Time for a new table saw....need some help.

[Robert Phlipo]

So this last weekend, my old 1.5 hp delta conked out on me and gave me an excuse to start looking for a new one. I'm 30 yrs old and would like to get a table saw that would give me no regrets and last a loooong time. Price is not a huge issue, i would like to keep it under 4k. I was seriously looking at a powermatic but recently had an omen that made me believe a sawstop would be the wise choice due to the fact that my day job would be impossible without one of my digits. What would you guys and gals reccommend...brand, size, best place to buy. Thanks for your help.

[Arnold E Schnitzer]

I looked at the Sawstop before I bought my Powermatic 2000, which I am quite happy with. That said, had price not been an issue I would have gotten the Sawstop. I'm an older guy, with a healthy fear of all sharp things, and I'm super safety-conscious. If I were 30 and could afford it, I would opt for the safest machine available. Sounds like you've already had that same thought...

[Troy Turner]

I've got an early 80's Craftsman, so take it for what it's worth...

Looks like the Sawstop has the bells and whistles that the high end saws do w/ the added safety feature. Also, not sure how the fence on one is, but I know alot of folks look to see if they're going to need to upgrade the fence on saws. My theory is, if you're spending the money like that on a saw, you need to spend any extra few $$$ and get a quality fence that's going to last as long as the saw and give you a great experience all around.

[John Lanciani]

Rojek PK250A with a 59" slider (pic shows the 36" sliding table) will fit your budget. I've had mine for 5 years with no regrets (it replaced a PM66). Made in the Czech Republic...

http://www.rojekusa.com/images/pk250a_med.jpg

[BOB OLINGER]

Hi Robert,

After nicking my left thumb on my Delta contractor saw a little over a year ago, I purchased the Sawstop 4 mos. ago. This was the first serious accident in like 40+ yrs (I'm only a hobbiest). However, my accident made me step up and realize that no mater how careful you are or think you are, accidents truly happen in a split second. So far, the saw is great, I'm gradually getting used to dust collector over the blade and not seeing the blade cut the wood, but finding this is workable. There are several other saws available, some less money, that likely do a comparable job. But, the safety issue was a clincher for me. Wish you well.

[Ray DuBose]

I'm Late 30's as well and just went through the same thing. I was replacing a Delta Contractor Saw. I really wanted a Custom Powermatic from Woodwerks but apparently they don't make them anymore at the times. Went through all the pros and cons of all the saws out there.

It pretty much came down to this for me. If I was to get an American style table saw the saw-stop was a no brainier. I was looking at the IC version. Love my fingers and want to keep them attached. At the end of the day though my thought was that the saw-stop is a fix for a poor design of a table saw. Most every thing you do your pushing your hands towards the saw blade so if there is a slip your hands go into blade. Also you stand in front of the Blade so if there is kickback its coming at you.

I chose to go with a Euro Slider, specifically the Hammer K3 Comfort. So far no regreats although I'm still figuring out how to do some things that were easy on an American style saw. But the saw was designed around safety. Most operations you are standing to the side of the saw so kickback may happen but it won't hit you and your usually moving the piece past the blade rather than pushing it into the blade. Downside is the slider takes some room depending on how long you purchased.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

+++++1 on the Sawstop. I love my 3HP PCS and have had it 18 months. I've never had the brake fire and hope not to...the riving knive is great and for ripping the over blade guard with pawls and integral dust collection is nice too. Even before I started using it though I was so impressed by how well written the owners manual/assembly instructions were! Every bolt and nut is blister packed and the sub-assemblies are color coded (book and hardware matching colors). Sawstop customer service even helped me out of a jam with another tool made another company!

[David Kumm]

with 4K the sky is the limit for traditional saws. You can buy any used saw on the market for that. There is more quality in the old but much more safety in the sawstop. I saw my first tablesaw accident the other day. won't sell my rockwell 12-14 but there is a real case for the newer technology. If you do cabinet work, there is real value in a slider. For furniture work, I'd get a traditional saw and for a few hundred more pick up a hammond trim saw. It will crosscut about 18 inches dead square. I have the rockwell, a bigger slider and the hammond. Use all about the same amount. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

Having gone from a General 650 cabinet saw to a Hammer B3 Winner with the 49" sliding table, you couldn't convince me to go back to a cabinet saw.

The slider is more accurate, more capable and has far greater capacities in the same floor space as a cabinet saw.

Ray mention buying the Hammer K3 which is the saw only, it's at a great price in the USA, and it's a quality machine with a great aray of options. You really do get a custom machine that fits your work perfectly.

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/hammer-k3-winner.html?videosgruppen_id=0

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/hammer-b3-winner.html?videosgruppen_id=0

http://www.feldergroupusa.com/us-us/video/the-complete-workshop.html?videosgruppen_id=0

Above are three videos of different machines in use, the first is the K3 saw, the second B3 saw shaper, the third, a desk being built using a full 5 function combination machine.

I suggest that you watch all 3 to get a good idea of what a sliding saw will do for you.............Regards, Rod.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

My biggest injury was due to kickback. Sawstop won't stop that.
Slider was my answer. Specifically MiniMax Combo. I could never go back.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I narrowed down my choices to:

Hammer K3
Grizzly G0623X
Sawstop
Powermatic/Unisaw/Grizzly cabinet saw

The cheapest way out is going with a grizzly cabinet saw. I owned one and felt as though it did everything I expected a cabinet saw to do. The money you save can be spent on other machines or tools if you go this route. I added a sliding table attachment to it, but wanted something better designed to do the same tasks.

If you can try out a slider then be careful because you might fall in love with it like many others on this forum. (including myself)

[Rick Potter]

Come on, admit it. You have already made up your mind. Get the sawstop. In my experience, there are two major items that add to safety, the riving knife which comes on most new saws now, greatly helps with kickback, and the Sawstop technology.
Sawstop incorporates both. Sliders are great for sheet goods, I have one, but I kept my cabinet saw, and seem to use it much more. Old dog, new tricks.

Rick Potter

[Brent Ring]

+howevermany on a slider. I just purchased the Grizzly G0623X, and have been very pleased. It's a 5 HP saw, solidly built, and less than $3K. It does not have the brake system of a Sawstop (which was the saw I was considering prior to the slider), but by changing the way you think in terms of cuts, the slider takes nearly all of the potential danger away. Panel Cutting and Straight-line ripping - once you have your slide set up, are very fast. I still need to shoot some video of using mine. I am so glad I opted for a slider over a cabinet saw. I expect this to be my last table-type saw.

[johnny means]

I bought my Sawstop ICS about 3 years ago. I don't miss the extra 2k it cost me over the competitors saws. Really, what is a couple of thousand really worth nowadays? Heck, I spent over $600 on gasoline in the past three days alone. So, I can't see how the price of something as permanent or substantial as a table saw should be a driving factor. If you amortize the premium spent over ,say, 40 years, it's really not much more.

BTW, I see no reason why my Sawstop won't still be cutting wood in 40 years. I'd put it up against "Old Quality" any day.

IMO, if you have the money, prefer a cabinet saw and absolutely need to guarantee that you keep all 10, go with the Sawstop.

Also, I don't know your parental status, but you are certainly at that age. I feel a lot better about having my two eager little shop rats learning on the safest thing I could provide.

That being said, if I was in the market for my one and only table saw and had 4k to spend, I would go with a slider.

[Ray Newman]

“…but recently had an omen that made me believe a sawstop would be the wise choice due to the fact that my day job would be impossible without one of my digits.“
--R. Phlipo

I think you have answered your own question and gave a valid reason for buying a Saw Stop, but you just haven’t realized it yet.

But as one poster mentioned, it will not stop kickbacks and this is something that most people overlook.

[David Kumm]

Quote "BTW, I see no reason why my Sawstop won't still be cutting wood in 40 years. I'd put it up against "Old Quality" any day."

The sawstop may be cutting in 40 years and is a great saw from a safety standpoint and well built for the price, but it can't compare to the "old quality" available at a $4000 price. You can get a rehabbed Oliver 88, 270, or a Northfield 4 for that. The new Northfields go for in excess of $13000. Delta Rockwell 12-14 and Powermatic 72, both a step or three down go for less but still have trunnions and castings huge in comparison to current offerings. Used Altendorfs can be found as well if you are patient and a little lucky. Safety is the reason to consider sawstop and in comparison to similar new saws it is a standout. Most comparable are coming out of China so the labor savings helps the price point. Comparing quality among them is fair, but don't think they are in the same league quality wise at a $4000 price as the old stuff selling for that. Dave

[C Scott McDonald]

I am really enjoying my Hammer k3 winner. It has made woodworking fun again compared to the old contractors saw I had.

[Doug Colombo]

It looks like you really want to go with the SS - go for it - I am sure that you will be happy. I just got a new TS about 3 months ago and was looking at SS, Grizzly, PM, and Delta. I found myself getting drawn back to the new Delta Unisaw each time I would look at the saws. I struggled and then figured that if I kept going back to the same saw, it was time to buy it. I love it and have never looked back. Sounds like you may be there with the SS.

[David Hostetler]

Since it fits in your budget, if you can cope with the way the company does business, get the SawStop... They are a nice saw with a great safety feature, but they are spendy...

Both Woodcraft and Rockler in my area carry them. I do not think you can buy them online though...

[Mike Henderson]

Since it fits in your budget, if you can cope with the way the company does business, get the SawStop... They are a nice saw with a great safety feature, but they are spendy...

Both Woodcraft and Rockler in my area carry them. I do not think you can buy them online though...

I have a SawStop and don't regret buying it. It's a quality saw and I like the insurance against cutting off my fingers.

I don't know what the reference to "the way the company does business" refers to. I've found the company to be quite good - good product, good support, no problems at all.

Mike

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Robert,

Welcome to Sawmill Creek.

As for a suggestion on buying a new table saw, I have about an 8 year old Unisaw that I bought new. I doubt I will ever replace it but if if did I think I would take a hard look at something like the Hammer K3 or similar.

Good luck with your purchase.

PHM

[John Coloccia]

If I had it to do over again, I would have probably bought a combination Euro Slider and Jointer/Planer....maybe even with a shaper in there. I have a SS Contractor saw, btw, because the PCS was not available at the time...it has all the upgrades on it that can be had but I wish the PCS were available at the time!

If I had to do it all over again and I couldn't get a slider for whatever reason, I can't think of any reason in the world I would buy anything but another SawStop. The new Delta Unisaw is pretty hot too, but I would lean towards the SS.

[rick sawyers]

I got a Hammer K3 with the 75 inch slide capacity and 51 inch rip a few months ago. It was the best decision I could make. It is such a time saver and so accurate. I love the fact that I can cut numerous precision cross cuts in a fration of the time thanks to the flip stop and the sliding tables accuracy.
Also it is useful when your sliding compount miter saws capacity is unable to be used you can use the K3 to easily cut a long angle very quickly with the adjustable mite on the crosscut fence.
In terms of safety I think it has to be almost as safe as the saw-stop because you and your fingers are usually off to the side and don't have to worry about being in the path of kick-back. It took a little getting used to but I love the saw and it has really allowed me to speed up the production process in my one man shop.
I would recommend you consider the upgrade to the Hammer K3 even though the price is about 5500 with delivery and the extras.

[McKay Sleight]

Robert, I will tell you up front that I am not a fan of the SS. I taught at a high school and for that reason I liked the peace of mind that a SS gives you. (I did find that numerous firings occurred because the students got lazy with the safety instruction and took chances that were unacceptable). We had 3 SS and a Laguna slider. The SS switches have gone bad, the break needs to be FINELY adjusted after each blade change, you are NOT able to switch between a saw and dado blade w/o changing the break. I visited the school last week where I retired from, and the instructor asked me if I had ever had the saw turn itself on. (it did turn on by itself when he was about 10 feet away). As an educator, education is better than any technology. The quality of Hammer, Rojek et.al. are all substantially better and 30 years down the road you will have a saw that will turn on and run when the SS may or may not. I found that the machining of the SS was not that good and that the rams, (the same type that hold up the back window of your car), that assist in the raising and lowering of the blade and tilt of the blade wore out and the saw was difficult to adjust. The main motor drive belt is expensive and difficult to replace. I had to have a tech. come and put mine in. This was very unusual because I am very good at working on WW machines. Get better education, exercise proper safety procedures and buy a saw that you can pass on to two or three other generations.

[Paul Ryan]

I own 1 of the 1st PCS saws out there and I am still very happy with it. The brake has never fired and I plan on keeping it that way. It has not changed my saftey habits at all either. I have used a slider recently and since it is such a change it is hard to be objective. I still prefer the american style saw because that is what I am used to I guess. I find it easier to do some cuts. The sliding design is much safer than the american design but there still is nothing to stop the blade. So if you ask me the sawstop is still the safest saw out there. Now if I had unlimited space in my shop and in my bank account I would own both a slider and a sawstop. You cant beat the slider for sheet goods. But the take up considerable more room than my 36" sawstop. Even the smaller K3 saws. And I think they are inferior for some operations like continuous ripping of smaller stock, and fine tuning joints. Just my opinion but if I had to choose one it would be the sawstop.

[Homer Faucett]

I find the criticism of the SS reliability surprising, as I have had an ICS now for over 4 years in an unheated, uninsulated, detached barn. Not exactly ideal conditions. Further, I have used it in below freezing temperatures, humid weather, and for a variety of situations in between. I've never had the saw switch itself on. I have never had a problem getting it to switch the saw off. Further, the belts and blade adjustment mechanisms work as well now as when it was bought. Changing blades is a snap, and does not require the FINE adjustment suggested above--simply place a nickle between the blade and brake, adjust the brake and blade to just touch both, lock down, and go. Fit and finish are every bit as good on the SS as the 1953 Unisaw I had.

The cast iron on the SS does tend to rust a bit more quickly than the Unisaw top under humid conditions, though. I can see where swapping out the dado cartridge is a drawback, but I never bought a dado cartridge or blade for my SS. I use a monster RAS for dados.

If you're concerned about your fingers and want an American style tablesaw, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the SS. I bought mine when I was 29 for the exact same reasons . . . although my wife was the one pushing for me to do so. I have no regrets, and no desire to upgrade to a slider, but that's a personal preference, IMHO. If I was starting over, I might consider a used combo machine with a J/P and shaper built in, but there are trade-offs you make there, as well. Go with your gut, make the decision, and proceed with making the sawdust. Never look back.

Good luck.

[Chuong Nguyen]

Just want to throw this out there, since no one's mentioned it. For me, money was/is an object, so I opted for the Jet Deluxe Xacta saw, during one those Jet/PM sales.
It includes the modern saftey features, and is very easy to remove and install it, which is a plus for me, since I will actually use it (and may not have if it was a royal pain).
It also has a pretty decent under the table dust collection.
Looking back, I should've went with the PM 2000 since it has built in 4 swivel casters, which would be very useful in my small shop. I have my Jet on a mobile base, but only one end swivels. I'm getting ready to fabricate a base with 4 swiveles.

[Kent A Bathurst]

... I have about an 8 year old Unisaw that I bought new. I doubt I will ever replace it but if if did I think I would take a hard look at something like the Hammer K3 or similar. ..

Ditto on everything Paul says, with modifications: My Uni is 13 years old; the slider won't fit in my current basement workshop, but that is the only thing that would stop me from that option, but, like Paul, I doubt I'll ever need another TS.

Well-respected people, such as Mike H above, attest to the quality of the SS, outside of the hotdog thing. Personally, I just have a bit of a bad taste in my mouth about the company - there seems to be a whiff of arrogance about them, but that's just me - no reason to fault the product.

Plus - after 25 years living in Michigan, constantly exposed those ubiquitous U of M grads, I am fairly well innoculated against arrogance from the ankle-biters :D - BOOM goes the dynamite!!

[Will Blick]

David offered great advise.... best choice depends on what size pieces you are cutting....

Other than the added cost, I doubt anyone today would regret a slider over a standard Cabinet Saw...
I have a PM2000, good solid saw, but if I had to buy again, it would clearly be a small slider....which IMO, is the weakness of cabinet saws...you are constantly manipulating ways to make the table larger...again, this assumes you cut wood larger than say 12" on cross cut and 20" on RIP cuts.. just wingin numbers...the point is, for small wood, like making doll houses, a slider offers no advantages (unless you are starting with big sheets)... but if you are building cabinets, sliders are the ticket.... fine furniture, well, between slider and CS. BTW, interesting comments about SS, thx for sharing... I would suggest that a slider would also be an amazing safety feature by the way its used, so it has tremendous safety value built-in, but not advertised...

[john lawson]

I have experience with most of the saws mentioned in this thread and would like to add a few comments about their features and overall safety.

First, I own a Rojek combo machine with a slider and riving knife. It is great and would buy one again. I also own an older Unisaw without a riving knife that I use as a backup saw and for plywood ripping. It works very well, but without the riving knife I don't use it as often as the Rojek. When our local woodworking guild was setting up their shop (and I bought most of the tools) we opted for two Sawstops; one for normal operations and one as a dedicated dado saw. In three years we have "saved" two fingers/hands with the Sawstops. We have also had 3 other instances of firing the cartridge when the operator hit metal or did something else wrong. If we had not had the Sawstops I truly believe we would have been sued out of existence. So, I am a big proponent of the Sawstop, but I still love my Rojek slider.

One other thing I would like to comment on. Several people mentioned that a Sawstop would not prevent "kickback". While nothing will prevent all kickbacks, a riving knife set properly will prevent almost all kickbacks. There are some good videos on Youtube that show kickback in slow motion, and a riving knife is a great safety tool.

So, get a Sawstop if you can afford it, or get a slider if you think you need the slider table option, but above all make sure you get a riving knife and set it properly.

good luck

john

[Roger Feeley]

I just got a SS Industrial. In doing the research beforehand, one objection sounded pretty strange to me. It was suggested that I would become lax in my habits and start depending on the safety system. I didn't think that was the case and it turned out not to be the case...sort of... My hope was that I could forget that the safety system was there and just use the same good habits that I have always used. I found that I couldn't ignore the system.

-- This is a little bit of the thinking mans saw. I have to be more careful about nails in the wood. I always checked for nails and stuff but now I have to be more vigilant. That's not a bad thing. It's just a thing.
-- I was used to my Delta Uniguard which I could use with my dado head. I can't use the SS guard with the dado head which is a little scary. I fixed the scary problem by machining the dado throat plate to take wood zero-clearance inserts. Now I have the equivalent of 30 throat plates and can make all I want. Still, using a dado head without any guard is something I never would have done before.
-- I have a Jess-Em miter gauge (aluminum). I found out the hard way that the screws holding the extrusion can come loose and the aluminum can slide. That's fixed now but I had a brake fire and ruined a dado head.

In summary, I am still getting used to the saw. I don't think I will ever be able to entirely forget the safety system. It's just a different animal.

[Alan Lightstone]

My first table saw was the SawStop Contractor's Saw. If I had to do over again I would probably buy their cabinet saw, but the SawStop has been great. No question I would buy a SawStop again. Very happy I bought it. And it's instructions are the best I have ever seen on any device. Truly amazing installation manual.

[Doug Palmer]

My biggest injury was due to kickback. Sawstop won't stop that.
Slider was my answer. Specifically MiniMax Combo. I could never go back.
+1
I know how to keep my fingers away from that blade, but the a piece of wood coming back at me cost me two broken fingers and a few weeks out of the shop.

Whatever your choice, focus on safety. Don't pinch the dollar and skimp on safety. You will recover the money soon enough.

[ken carroll]

BTW, I see no reason why my Sawstop won't still be cutting wood in 40 years. I'd put it up against "Old Quality" any day.

.


Oh puleeze!

I've looked at - and briefly played with - the Chinese made Sawstop and there's no way it is comparable to an "old quality" saw.

My 1945 Oliver 270 has a riving knife, has a micrometer adjutable short Euro style fence, weighs 1300lbs and will cut circles (metaphorically speaking) around a Sawstop.
There ain't nuthin' like the sound of a 14" blade driven by a direct drive 5HP motor - sounds like a gas turbine helicopter!

[John Coloccia]

Oh puleeze!

I've looked at - and briefly played with - the Chinese made Sawstop and there's no way it is comparable to an "old quality" saw.

My 1945 Oliver 270 has a riving knife, has a micrometer adjutable short Euro style fence, weighs 1300lbs and will cut circles (metaphorically speaking) around a Sawstop.
There ain't nuthin' like the sound of a 14" blade driven by a direct drive 5HP motor - sounds like a gas turbine helicopter!

Weren't we talking about table saws? Pretty soon we'll be making comparisons with saw mills.

[Richard Shaefer]

I went with the sawstop and have been happy with it.
I'll only add that if you are married or in a relationship where you share finance responsibility, it's a lot easier to justift a multithousand dollar tool purchase on the grounds of enhanced safety than on the grounds of "cooler", "bigger", or "more power". ;)

[John Paul Cummings]

I would also look at the Hammer saw series. Euro slider with a cabinet saw price. Also go to www.feldergroupusa.com - you can win a Hammer saw valued at $ 4,000-00. They tell me if you buy a machine before the draw is done you will get the money back.

[Tom Willoughby]

I purchased my professional cabinet SawStop (model below the Industrial cabinet saw) a couple of years ago because I type everyday at work and losing or injuring a finger would significantly impact how I work. Long story short, I paid a $1,000 premium for the SawStop professional cabinet saw over other comparable saws I was considering but today, I have long forgotten the pain of the additional money and enjoy the saw and the additional protection it provides.

Have fun making your decision.

Kind regards,
Tom

[Dan Hulbert]

While many or any of the saws recommended are appropriate, let me add something to consider. You're 30. Scince I was 30 I have moved my shop to 3 states (I'm now 56). Unless you are a rare bird these days, you can expect to do the same. None of the places I've owned have had 220 volts available in the shop. While I've lusted after a big cabinet saw for years, no power means no work. If I were to go out today, I'd buy the Sawstop but get the 110 volt model. BTW, I'm a hobbiest, not a professional.

[Don Bullock]

While many or any of the saws recommended are appropriate, let me add something to consider. You're 30. Scince I was 30 I have moved my shop to 3 states (I'm now 56). Unless you are a rare bird these days, you can expect to do the same. None of the places I've owned have had 220 volts available in the shop. While I've lusted after a big cabinet saw for years, no power means no work. If I were to go out today, I'd buy the Sawstop but get the 110 volt model. BTW, I'm a hobbiest, not a professional.

I fully agree with Dan.

My SawStop (early model before there was a choice) is fantastic!!!!!!!

When I bought it I had to have a 220 circuit installed in my garage. A few years later we moved to a new home with an even newer shop and I had the 220 installed before the concrete floor was set. Like Dan said, with the new saws you won't have to have a 220 circuit for the new SawStop table saw.

Having said that my SawStop is so fantastic if I were your age I might have looked at a Euro Slider and Jointer/Planer. I was not very familiar with sliders when I bought my SawStop besides at my age relearning how to use the saw wasn't something that I was interested in.