Whet stone v. wet stone

[michael case]

Hi Neanders,

Just looking for some opinions or theories on sharpening stones. I just can't seem to make natural Arkansas's work for me. This is not the end of the world. I have a Tormek and Japanese water stones. I can get a razor sharp edge out lickety split with a 6000 water stone. But I all seem to do when I use a natural is to dull my plane irons. I like to understand the why of things. So I came over to the Haven for some thoughts on this. What I have for naturals are a Pro Edge white hard and a surgical black. My idea was to have them for quick touch ups at the bench rather than getting out the water stones. So far not much luck. Sometimes a light refreshing on the surgical does some good, but any degree of sharpening demanding the use of the hard white followed by the black never gets the edge back to where I had it. In the end, I give up and get out the 6000 water stone. I draw the edge backwards a couple of times, then take a couple deburring strokes on the back of the iron and right away I'm back up to razor sharp. Like I said its not the end of the world. I can just be a water stone guy the rest of my life, but I liked to know what I'm doing wrong with the oil stones.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on this

[Jim Koepke]

I draw the edge backwards a couple of times, then take a couple deburring strokes on the back of the iron and right away I'm back up to razor sharp.

I am not quite sure of what you are doing. Are you pushing the edge on the oil stones? I believe they will sharpen better that way.

From the different information that has come to me, a water stone and maybe a diamond stone do not need the edge to be pressed into them. From what one person taught me, an oil stone does require some pressure on the edge as it is pushed on the stone.

I find the feel of the oil stones and water stones much different.

Also, if my memory is working a 6000 water stone may be a bit finer than a hard, black or translucent Arkansas stone.

jtk

[David Weaver]

What kind of steel are you using?

I have the same oil stones you do (at least the black, my white stones came from a cutter in arkansas and are unbranded). The edge is different coming off of them than it is coming off a waterstone.

If you refresh the black, I think you'll find it cuts pretty fast and you get a reasonably sharp edge with it at a common angle (say upper mid 20s in degrees), one that can shave hair albeit not like you would shave hair with a razor.

If you let it settle in some, it will cut more slowly but give you a finer edge if you stick with it. I think a strop does a lot more for an oil stone edge than it does for a fine waterstone, too. Just a plain leather strop is fine (with nothing on it), can be hard or not hard, paddle strop, whatever.

That said, i can't see a reason to use oil stones now unless you use all very simple steel and it's not that hard, or unless you need a really hard stone.

If you don't have a strop, it might be a good chance to get some vegetable tanned leather 1/8" thick and experiment with different types of strops. I believe you can get it on ebay for about $10 a sq foot. No matter how fine the final stone, a strop will always move it around some, and learning to use a strop and figuring out how it moves the edge and what the results are is a good thing to know.

[David Keller NC]

Hi Neanders,

My idea was to have them for quick touch ups at the bench rather than getting out the water stones.

As David noted, probably the best way to refresh an edge while working in the shop isn't going back to your stones (water or oil), but to strop the edge. IMO, the best way to do this is to glue a piece of hard leather, fuzzy side up, onto a 3/4" thick, planed-straight-'n-flat piece of wood, and use a light coating of stropping compound. Generally, it takes 2 or 3 strokes on the bevel, followed by one stroke only on the back to get back to new-honing-off-the-stone sharpness. This is definitely a case where more is not better - many strokes on the strop will tend to round the edge, forcing you to go back to your stones or grinder.

[george wilson]

David is correct: Too many licks across a strop will begin to round off your edge.

I know everyone uses their leather flesh side out,but I have always done the opposite,and used the hair(smooth) side out. I think the fuzzy side will present too soft a surface to the edge,and round it more quickly. You must be careful to not nick the hair side,though. Then it has a lump in it.

[David Weaver]

I also use the smooth side. For some reason, the concept of moving the edge in the direction I want it to go seems easier with the smooth side. It's also easier for me to see if there have been any bits of wire edge that broke off into it and stuck, before I run another tool over it and mark up the edge.

[john brenton]

Maybe the problem is comparing your oil stone to your water stones. I also keep a black arkansas on my bench for a quick touch-up, but I'm never as happy with the result, and it does take a lot longer than the water stone. I have a leather strop, and some balsa paddle strops with rouge and that does work. A few passes with the black arkansas to whet the edge, then on to the strops for does do the job of not having to soak the stones.

BUT, usually the 4,000/8000 norton could do that job too, and doesn't really need any soaking. You still have a little mess, and the wear on the stone.

And, as Jim said, a good edge on the oil stones does require some pressure, which I'd rather not do. You've got a razor sharp edge gliding on oil, with oil on your hands...not a good idea, especially when you're used to going faster and lighter with the water stones. I had a near slice the other day as the chisel slipped off the stone and my reflexes went to grab the chisel. Luckily I caught myself and let the chisel go.

[michael case]

Thanks to all, for the knowledgeable advice. Its great coming to the Haven. You guys have never steered me wrong with BS advice and I appreciate it. You have given me lot to think about - HMM, yes I have been drawing the iron back and not pushing and yes I have been using light pressure. So I could occasionally use the surgical black by pushing with pressure, but with care. Yes its simple steel. I've taken a rather perverse pride in taking off-the-shelf modern Stanleys and tuning them so they actually work. But why am I bothering with oils stones simple steel or not? It seems none of you guys use oils stones for much except touch up and even here a strop seems to be the preffered choice. I'm such a power-tool flunky I don't own a strop, but I will get one. It seems to be the way to go for what I want. Thanks again guys.

[john brenton]

A strop is just a piece of leather affixed to a flat surface. You can go to Tandy and get a little piece, (no less than 3" wide and 12" long...imo) and glue it so some glass, or a piece of stable wood. I use strop dressing but I don't think it's all that necessary. There are other creams/oils that will do the job... even oil from your hand and face should keep it nice and healthy.

You could add some diamond paste to it, but that's overkill. I don't see any necessity in going beyond 8000k for something that doesn't touch your face.

I mention all of this because there may be a temptation to buy something called a "strop", when that's silly. You'll beat the life out of that strop fairly quickly, especially as you're getting started, and you wouldn't want to have some expensive store bought strop. That, and a lot of the store stuff is imitation leather...there's nothing like real leather, and I wouldn't use the synthetic stuff.


Thanks to all, for the knowledgeable advice. Its great coming to the Haven. You guys have never steered me wrong with BS advice and I appreciate it. You have given me lot to think about - HMM, yes I have been drawing the iron back and not pushing and yes I have been using light pressure. So I could occasionally use the surgical black by pushing with pressure, but with care. Yes its simple steel. I've taken a rather perverse pride in taking off-the-shelf modern Stanleys and tuning them so they actually work. But why am I bothering with oils stones simple steel or not? It seems none of you guys use oils stones for much except touch up and even here a strop seems to be the preffered choice. I'm such a power-tool flunky I don't own a strop, but I will get one. It seems to be the way to go for what I want. Thanks again guys.

[Jim Koepke]

That said, i can't see a reason to use oil stones now unless you use all very simple steel and it's not that hard, or unless you need a really hard stone.

When the water in my shop is solid, the oil stones get used.

I have also come to like the oil stones for gouges and small chisels that tend to dig in on a water stone.



Thanks to all, for the knowledgeable advice. Its great coming to the Haven. You guys have never steered me wrong with BS advice and I appreciate it. You have given me lot to think about - HMM, yes I have been drawing the iron back and not pushing and yes I have been using light pressure. So I could occasionally use the surgical black by pushing with pressure, but with care. Yes its simple steel. I've taken a rather perverse pride in taking off-the-shelf modern Stanleys and tuning them so they actually work. But why am I bothering with oils stones simple steel or not? It seems none of you guys use oils stones for much except touch up and even here a strop seems to be the preffered choice. I'm such a power-tool flunky I don't own a strop, but I will get one. It seems to be the way to go for what I want. Thanks again guys.

I am sure all of us extend a, "you are welcome."

I also like to fix up the old Stanleys into fine working planes.

Your location doesn't show in your profile. If you are anywhere near SW Washington, shoot me a PM if you would like to get together for some knowledge exchange.

jtk

[David Weaver]

and you wouldn't want to have some expensive store bought strop.

I agree. Save the nice strops for razor sharpening. When you inevitably get something on the strop that you don't want on it, if it's $2 worth of leather, you can just make another one without pulling out your hair and straning yourself over how much shipping will be for another, etc.

When I want another one, I pull a thin offcut of 4/4 wood out of my scrap bin, glue it to the edge of a large piece of leather with hide glue and then when the glue is dry, just cut it off the leather piece.

I *wish* there was a tandy leather store around here.

[Jim Koepke]

I *wish* there was a tandy leather store around here.

One time when the wife and I were traveling we were in a small town and shopping in the business district. I happened upon a leather shop where the owner sold me a bunch of scrap pieces.

There is probably a leathersmith (is that the right word) somewhere near by that has scraps to be bought for a song.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Could be. There's a tandy on the other side of the city, but it's literally an hour and $20 worth of gas away. The stuff on ebay is song-ish. I see 8/9 oz veggie tanned leather 2 1/2 inches wide and 4 feet long for $16 shipped.

Anyone ever try a shoe repair shop? They have to have some. I know some folks are probably thinking about how shoe repair shops disappeared long ago, but there are several here, and they seem to stay surprisingly busy in areas that are really high rent.

[john brenton]

I'm lucky in that I get to travel quite a bit. I go to the Tandy in Columbia, South Carolina. That may be the closest one to me. Funny that this comes up because I was just going through downtown Savannah in and saw a leather supply shop. I got to get over there and check it out.

Some big time upholsterers, like Gulfstream Jets here in Savannah probably give away massive amounts of leather for a minimal price. A friend of mine here (who transfered to Europe before I could buy some leather through him:() does the upholstering for those jets and boooooooy do they do some fancy work. You know, Saudi Princes want the baby kid skin with eel skin accents and gold leaf that lights up etc etc. I doubt you'd have much luck with a cobbler though. One of my best friends in Fresno, CA, was an awesome cobbler/bootmaker, and getting a scrap of leather from him would be like getting a scrap of hardwood from me.

Just for anyone into leatherwork and boots...here's my buddy's site. He made a pair for George Bush Jr.
http://www.luisjovelboots.com/


Could be. There's a tandy on the other side of the city, but it's literally an hour and $20 worth of gas away. The stuff on ebay is song-ish. I see 8/9 oz veggie tanned leather 2 1/2 inches wide and 4 feet long for $16 shipped.

Anyone ever try a shoe repair shop? They have to have some. I know some folks are probably thinking about how shoe repair shops disappeared long ago, but there are several here, and they seem to stay surprisingly busy in areas that are really high rent.

[Terry Beadle]

I use a strop made from rock maple. Dead flat and applied green rouge. The cost is insignificant and it can be recharged easily. An initial coating of the rouge uses a bit of mineral spirits and then left over night to dry.

I think it's my ham hands that make a rock maple strop surface work for me as I can't stop at one or two strokes...but that's just me. Also the rock maple strops allow you to put more pressure on the edge.

To get a good idea of a strop's use ( what ever material used ) go on youtube and look at the shaving razor vid's. Lots of good sharpener's have put their techniques there.

For the fastest bench available reliable edge touch up, a white ceramic finest grit stone with a bit of spit will do the job.

Good Luck !

[Alan Schwabacher]

Another thing is that the oil is just to help keep the swarf from clogging the stone. You don't really want to lubricate it, because that keeps it from cutting well. Very thin oil will allow faster cutting than thicker oil, which might be part of why your stone is cutting slowly.