Learning to saw dovetails and other joinery

[Jay Maiers]

So I bought some toys yesterday...
194984
***Props to Highland Hardware: I ordered yesterday morning and my package arrived today via UPS!***

I know next to nothing about saw techniques. Is it reasonable to expect to learn the basics from a book or a DVD? I've been eyeballing the Schwarz fundamentals DVD and / or the Cosman Dovetail video. Since joinery is likely to be the only saw work I do, will the dovetail video contain enough pointers to get me on the right track?

I'm hoping my schedule clears enough to take a dovetail class at Highland Harware next month. If I miss that one, I don't think there's another for quite some time. :(
Until then, I'd like to practice a bit, but don't know if I'll learn a bunch of bad habits and have to be re-trained to do things properly.

[David Weaver]

Robert Wearing's book will give you a lot of information.

Cosman's dovetail video is good. I haven't seen the schwartz video, but in sawing (and i think dovetails) you can get far along by marking things properly and not ham-handing things. Let the tools work, and pay attention to your errors and think about why you made them. Practice the things that are not good. if they don't improve, seek more information.

[Jim Matthews]

Note the polished surface of your saw blade.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/ar...really-do-that

When you have the blade properly aligned (for a cut perpendicular to the board's edge) you will see the board reflected as a continuous line.
(The angle of reflection is equal to the angle of incidence.)

I saw this demonstrated in one of Chris Schwarz's videos.

This little observation has really helped me to cut square to the edge of the board.

[Zahid Naqvi]

A lot of learning is in doing. Once you start making joints like dovetails etc you will figure out some stuff on your own. Video tutorials and write ups are good help to give you options on what various ways exist of doing the same work. Once you start practicing you start leaning towards certain ways of doing things. The variety of techniques of making the same joint should tell you that all people are not made the same and some mechanics feel natural to you and some awkward. Practice allows you to try out various options, determine you comfort zone and then repeat the technique to become proficient. I don't think the well known teachers (Cosman, Schwarz, Kalus etc.) will teach you any bad habits/technique. If I had to wait to get into a class to learn something I'd never learn anything. But that's just me, I like the trial and error process of learning. I'd say go for it, try out a few things and see how your joints come out. It might be beneficial because when you do go to that class you can ask specific questions, for example why can't I cut on a line? or how come my dovetail always have gaps on the inside etc.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I recommend Jim Kingshott's Dovetail dvd (http://www.amazon.com/DVD-Dovetails-Techniques-Master-Woodworker/dp/1565233522/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1305683400&sr=8-2), a lot cheaper, too.

Pam

[Jay Maiers]

When you have the blade properly aligned (for a cut perpendicular to the board's edge) you will see the board reflected as a continuous line.
(The angle of reflection is equal to the angle of incidence.)

I saw this demonstrated in one of Chris Schwarz's videos.

This little observation has really helped me to cut square to the edge of the board.

Since I have now toys, I just had to play for a little while tonight. I find it odd that I can cut a straight line just by looking at a reflection in the saw blade and not at the line itself. Granted, my version of straight is probably not what others would call straight, but it's still pretty neat!

Thanks all for the recommendations. I'd agree that a little trial and error is in order, if for no other reason than to understand some of what I don't know. I can also see that I need to get some task lighting sooner rather than later...

[Mark Baldwin III]

I second Pam for Jim Kingshott's video. I love watching him.
As for your new saw, I'm lucky enough to have the full set of LV back saws. They are great saws, and they won't let you down.

[Steve Branam]

One of the standard practice exercises is to do a bunch of end grain cuts on a piece. Mark a bunch of lines square across the end grain, about a quarter inch apart, and then mark them straight down the board about an inch. Saw each of these on the lines. Then cut off that end and repeat, with lines angled across the end grain. Cut that off, and repeat with lines square across the end, but angled down. These are the basic cuts of tenons and dovetails.

After repeating this a few times, you should find your accuracy holding to the line improving quickly as your hand and eyes learn to control the saw. It's also worth repeating this exercise after a few days, or any time you haven't used the saw in a while, like a batter taking practice swings. The corrections are very subtle, but trust your eye-hand coordination to sort it out over a few dozen cuts.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I recently heard some advice to try cutting dovetails in MDF because then you know that the MDF is flat. The other plus (that I am not sure is a plus) is that the MDF is fragile so if you try to force it it will break. Maybe the plus is that you know where it was tight.

[Terry Beadle]

I had read ( some where...? ) that MDF has some metal in it. I wouldn't use my dove tail saw on it.

Put me down on Kingshott's dove tail video. He's got style !

David Weaver's advice above is dead on. Practice is important. I would also say it's easier to do tails first than pins ( it's just my opinion ! ). Hoot!

Good luck and enjoy the process.

[Jerome Hanby]

I don't think it has metal, but all the glues and whatever else makes it a little hard on tools. I don't cut it with anything except carbide (and throw away blades on the saber saw).

[Jim Koepke]

I had read ( some where...? ) that MDF has some metal in it. I wouldn't use my dove tail saw on it.


Interesting, I never thought of this, but fiber board has never appealed to me, so it is never considered when my wallet is ready to be deployed.

Doing a search on > "MDF contains metal" < narrowed it down to three hits. One of the link's discussions led to the link below.

Possibly more accurate would be to say it "might have some metal" or other items that may not be nice to a saw's teeth.

http://fennerschool-associated.anu.edu.au/fpt/mdf/manufacture.html

Mentions this:


Mixing wood and other non-wood materials such as fibres of glass, steel, carbon and aramide have all resulted in successful MDF type products being produced.

Another response to a question says MDF may be made of recycled materials that may contain metal.

Then there are always those staples holding the bar code strip on the ends of the boards bought at the Borgs.

Pay attention, the saw you save may be your own.

jtk

[Jay Maiers]

One of the standard practice exercises is to do a bunch of end grain cuts on a piece. Mark a bunch of lines square across the end grain, about a quarter inch apart, and then mark them straight down the board about an inch. Saw each of these on the lines. Then cut off that end and repeat, with lines angled across the end grain. Cut that off, and repeat with lines square across the end, but angled down. These are the basic cuts of tenons and dovetails.

After repeating this a few times, you should find your accuracy holding to the line improving quickly as your hand and eyes learn to control the saw. It's also worth repeating this exercise after a few days, or any time you haven't used the saw in a while, like a batter taking practice swings. The corrections are very subtle, but trust your eye-hand coordination to sort it out over a few dozen cuts.

The cutting seems to be going well, but starting the cut is a whole 'nuther matter. Once out of every four or five attempts I get a really good start; the saw catches and starts cutting like a dream. The rest of the starts are slightly jumpy at best, and sometimes they are downright terrible. So far I haven't figured out the problem, but I expect that I will with more practice.

Speaking of practice, what type and thickness of wood should I use as practice fodder? I'm using 1/2" poplar right now, but I'll go get something else if poplar is not a good choice.



I recommend Jim Kingshott's Dovetail dvd (http://www.amazon.com/DVD-Dovetails-Techniques-Master-Woodworker/dp/1565233522/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1305683400&sr=8-2), a lot cheaper, too.

Jim Kingshott it is. I happened by a WW store at lunch; the video just jumped in to my hand!
Actually, after watching a few random dovetailing clips on the internet, I decided it would be a good idea to see a professional video. I really wanted to see some things that the amateurs weren't showing; body stance, work height, saw positioning, etc. I saw lots of close-ups of fingers, scribe lines, and sawdust, but very few overviews.

Re: MDF
I've cut a lot of MDF over the years, and have yet to see anything other than sawdust. That's not to say it doesn't happen, just that I'm not going to worry about debris ruining my saw. I'm going to take a scrap home tonight to see how it cuts. If there's any damage to be had, I'd think it would be the glue dulling the teeth.

Anyhow, thanks again to all for your thoughts on this subject. I'm looking forward to learnign and practicing.

[David Weaver]

I had read ( some where...? ) that MDF has some metal in it. I wouldn't use my dove tail saw on it.



Even if it doesn't have metal in it, it wears edge tools like a slow cutting stone.

I have a router table with an MDF top (one I made from pat warner's suggestions in a book). I don't exactly use it, but it's there. So much time goes by between each time (at least a year) that I use it that it goes out of flat, probably from moisture, and I plane it.

If you ever want to see an exercise in making a plane iron dull fast, plane an MDF surface flat.

The only thing I can say for it is at least it makes the edge uniformly dull, and doesn't chip, so resharpening is uneventful (and I'd rather plane it than sand it - the dust is probably some bad stuff).

I wouldn't put a saw in it unless it's one of those really cheap impulse tooth saws from HF or maybe HD, and not intended to do anything other than cut ply and MDF.

[greg Forster]

Regarding a comment often made about using the reflection on the polished saw blade; it's useful for some-what precise (imprecise) cuts, but you can still be several degrees off in either direction of your intended cut, the reflection is just not that accurate. I would not fixate on this procedure for precision cuts.

[Tony Shea]

David,

Thats interesting that you plane your router table top of MDF with a hand plane. I've often wondered what the results of this would be but have never tried it myself. My first and only bench top is made of this horrible stuff laminated together. I don't have the ability to make a new one at the moment. But my top is out of flat and just never dared trying to flatten it as I was affraid the surface would no longer be smooth but end up dusty and chippy. Is the surface created by this planning come out ok?

[dave toney]

MDF has a lot of grit (dirt) in it.
I posted on the general woodworking forum the other day that I worked in a hardboard plant for many years.
Wood chips come in and are scooped up with front end loaders to enter the process.
Wood chips come from sawmills and a lot of dirt is scooped up there also.
The chips are washed, but a lot of grit remains.
I would never put a plane blade to mdf, only carbide bits.
MDF is wood fiber and dirt held together by toxic chemicals i.e.: formaldehyde, wax, and resins
I hate the stuff and never ever use it.
Dave

[Russell Sansom]

Poplar is an excellent wood for dovetails. 1/2" and 3/4" are probably the most common thicknesses you'll use for drawers, carcasses, boxes, and panels, so practice with those.
A tip I'd pass on to someone starting out that isn't immediately self evident: Start your dovetail work with boards that are "gems." I mean, square, flat, and well-finished all around, especially on the end grain. These will take an accurate mark and variations in the cut will be due to your sawing, not to imperfections in the wood's geometry.
For tenons and dovetails in thicker lumber, it's good to have the appropriate saw ( say around 6 teeth in the cut --- just a general guideline ) for removing the waste efficiently.

[Jay Maiers]

Thanks Russel. I've been working off of a couple of decent poplar blanks from the borg, mostly practicing the start of my cuts. I'm having a bit of trouble keeping the saw where I want it, but things seem to be gitting a little better. Your point about properly finished ends is a good one. I've been chopping the practice boards on my power miter saw, but I think I'd be better served by setting up a shooting board and plane to smooth out the cuts. Between that and a mallet, looks like I've got a couple of shop projects for this weekend!

[Zach England]

Regarding a comment often made about using the reflection on the polished saw blade; it's useful for some-what precise (imprecise) cuts, but you can still be several degrees off in either direction of your intended cut, the reflection is just not that accurate. I would not fixate on this procedure for precision cuts.

Do you have any advice on how to do this? I am trying to cut some slots in saw handles with my DT saw and the cut looks accurate for 3/4 inch down, then it starts to wander from the line a bit. In my case it is always to the right, and I doubt it is the saw because I have tried the same operation with three different (good) dovetail saws and it still tends to the right.

[David Weaver]

Zach - get an old saw with a plate about the thickness of the plate you'll be using in the new saw.

No set, take all of the set off - you want the slot dead straight because if it isn't, the plate will be bent at best at the back of the saw (i.e., it'll be straight for a while and take a turn) and at worst, it'll telegraph a fair bit up the saw plate.

Another option is to get a ryoba and stone enough set off of it that it will cut the slot the thickness you want. They flex and you have to take the cut slowly and be absolutely sure you're not flexing the plate (this is how I did my first two, and they were the old style handles with large cheeks and a very long/deep slot. The longer and deeper the slot, the harder it is to get that cut perfect.

Unfortunately, it's something you get better at with practice, so you might want to cut a few blanks out of some hardwood scrap and make test saw handle cheeks until you are able to make them such that when you put the cheeks on the saw plate and clamp them tight against the saw plate, you don't get any flex in the saw blade.

Interestingly, my old nurse dovetail saw has a very straight plate until the last two inches, and then the saw handle flexes the plate a little. i'm assuming it was cut by hand.

something else just popped into my head - if you have a new saw plate, you can cut a blank of stock that is the thickness of the cheek on the saw handle (the thickness outside of the slot), sharpen (but don't set) the saw plate and clamp the saw plate to the blank in plane with your bench top. You can then cut the slot on the saw handle by putting it on the bench top and moving it back and forth past the plate. I didn't have any luck with that because the apple that I am using is too hard, but I've seen a lot of people who did have luck with it.

[Zach England]

Zach - get an old saw with a plate about the thickness of the plate you'll be using in the new saw.

No set, take all of the set off - you want the slot dead straight because if it isn't, the plate will be bent at best at the back of the saw (i.e., it'll be straight for a while and take a turn) and at worst, it'll telegraph a fair bit up the saw plate.

Another option is to get a ryoba and stone enough set off of it that it will cut the slot the thickness you want. They flex and you have to take the cut slowly and be absolutely sure you're not flexing the plate (this is how I did my first two, and they were the old style handles with large cheeks and a very long/deep slot. The longer and deeper the slot, the harder it is to get that cut perfect.

Unfortunately, it's something you get better at with practice, so you might want to cut a few blanks out of some hardwood scrap and make test saw handle cheeks until you are able to make them such that when you put the cheeks on the saw plate and clamp them tight against the saw plate, you don't get any flex in the saw blade.

Interestingly, my old nurse dovetail saw has a very straight plate until the last two inches, and then the saw handle flexes the plate a little. i'm assuming it was cut by hand.

something else just popped into my head - if you have a new saw plate, you can cut a blank of stock that is the thickness of the cheek on the saw handle (the thickness outside of the slot), sharpen (but don't set) the saw plate and clamp the saw plate to the blank in plane with your bench top. You can then cut the slot on the saw handle by putting it on the bench top and moving it back and forth past the plate. I didn't have any luck with that because the apple that I am using is too hard, but I've seen a lot of people who did have luck with it.

Interesting. Thanks. I do have new saw plates, so the last trick sounds like a good one. I tried that at one point with my LN thin-plate dovetail saw and I actually bent the saw a little bit (but was able to re-bend it and it still cuts straight). The LN saw, with set, cuts a kerf just a hair thinner than what I need for the thicker plates I got from Mike W. My Adria DT saw cut a kerf just slightly too big. The wood I am using is not as hard as apple. I was using walnut, but I have successfully mangled all the walnut pieces I had in that thickness, so I am going to have to either surface more walnut or move on to some maple or cherry I have. Suffice it to say I have a lot of funny shaped kindling. For the past few I got to the point where I'd just rough out the handle on the band saw then try to cut the kerf, so I didn't put any more effort into it before screwing up.

I will have to check to see if Wenzloff's plates have any set on them. I don't think they do.

[David Weaver]

David,

Thats interesting that you plane your router table top of MDF with a hand plane. I've often wondered what the results of this would be but have never tried it myself. My first and only bench top is made of this horrible stuff laminated together. I don't have the ability to make a new one at the moment. But my top is out of flat and just never dared trying to flatten it as I was affraid the surface would no longer be smooth but end up dusty and chippy. Is the surface created by this planning come out ok?

Tony, I missed this.

The surface that you plane out of MDF is as flat as any other planed surface. When you plane it, you might have the tendency to keep increasing the depth of cut until the plane stops cutting, but even at that, my planed surface on the router table top has been very good to work with in terms of flatness. cost was the issue, I don't like spending money on power tools, and especially on gadgets, and warner's router table design can be built for about $25 if you go without an insert, or $25+insert if you go with one.

There are no chips in the surface from planing, the surface is uniform and I wax it each time I plane it which makes it slick and not "fuzzy". It's really not bad to work with, and you can make another top any time out of a single sheet of MDF. I do not have all of the gadgets and T tracks that a hard core router user uses, just a top with a PC7518 under an aluminum insert, so the cheapie version suits me well, it just dulls (but doesn't damage) irons quickly to do the planing, but is by no means difficult to do and get good results.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

The cutting seems to be going well, but starting the cut is a whole 'nuther matter. Once out of every four or five attempts I get a really good start; the saw catches and starts cutting like a dream. The rest of the starts are slightly jumpy at best, and sometimes they are downright terrible. So far I haven't figured out the problem, but I expect that I will with more practice.

You reminded me of a blog entry by Derek Cohen (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?2150-Derek-Cohen) that he has linked to many times.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails.html

Scroll down to his fifth image and you will see that he started a little divot using a chisel. I have not yet tried this. See if it helps.

[David Weaver]

The cutting seems to be going well, but starting the cut is a whole 'nuther matter.

I missed this, too. Two things that could fix this:
1) relax (by filing) the rake on the first few inches of teeth to about 15 degrees. You only have to take a tiny tiny bit off of each tooth - one very light pass with a small file at 15 degrees, the tooth doesn't need to be filed 15 degrees in its entire height.
2) improve your technique, and the easiest way to see what you need to do is watch how someone starts a cut. Jameel had a video showing off one of his vises a long time ago, and he started several dovetail saw cuts.

I think Rob C starts cuts the same way in a video. Eventually, I think you will get to the point where you start the cuts the way those two guys do it, but no reason not to start doing it right now.

Rake at 15 degrees *never* catches, so if you don't mind filing a little bit of rake on the first couple of inches of teeth, that'll ease you into things and keep you from skipping the saw across the end of a board.

[Richard Gonzalez]

The cutting seems to be going well, but starting the cut is a whole 'nuther matter. Once out of every four or five attempts I get a really good start; the saw catches and starts cutting like a dream. The rest of the starts are slightly jumpy at best, and sometimes they are downright terrible. So far I haven't figured out the problem, but I expect that I will with more practice.

One thing I have recently learned from Joel Moskowitz' blog at Tools for Working Wood where he talks about starting the cut "uphill" (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=161).

Joel posted this some time ago, but I just recently found it (he referred back to it in a more recent post about sawing straight (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=NEXT&StoreCode=toolstore&nextpage=/extra/blogpage.html&BlogID=270&BG=1)). I am just a beginner, and this has been helping me get "started".