Wide or narrow boards for large oak glue up?

[scott vroom]

I'm getting ready to glue up a 12' long slab from 5/4 QSWO. The boards are flat and straight and are the following widths: 5", 6", 8", 9".

My gut tells me I should rip at least the 2 wider boards in half, leaving me with a 6 board glue up. Does anyone have any hands-on experience to know whether it's always better to glue up more narrow boards vs fewer wider boards? Am I less likely to get movement with more narrow boards? Final application is a desk top so each end of the slab will be secured to a heavy base cabinet at each end.

I seems the further I go with woodworking the less I know.

Thanks for any advice...

[Neil Brooks]

Yeah.

All things being equal, you're less likely to get warp/cupping with narrower boards, and alternating direction of your annular growth rings.

I think the QS will *minimize* the need for that, but -- since it won't *eliminate* it ... I'd probably minimize the risk, and rip some of the wider boards.

Good luck. Fun project ... and ... with beautiful stock :)

[Chip Lindley]

The thing about using narrow boards in a glue-up is being able to alternate the grain of each; smile, frown, smile, frown. But, with QS wood there is no smile/frown. Unless you flip half of each ripped board, it's trouble for nothing, and still may serve no purpose.

Providing stability beneath the slab by attaching it to the drawer banks to allow for expansion while holding flat, and a couple of battens beneath the slab in the knee space, hidden by the apron will go a long way to keep the slab flat once glued up.

[Steve Schoene]

I disagree. No advantage in ripping boards, especially quartersawn boards as narrow as 9". If you need to eliminate sapwood for esthetic reasons rip away, but if the boards will warp they will warp at 5" as at 9". Glue ups of lots of narrow boards just look cheap, in my opinion.

In particular I don't recommend alternating growth rings--following Tage Frid. If boards glued alternatively do cup, then you have a washboard. If the growth rings are all in the same direction, then the warp can pretty easily be tamed by the attachment on the ends to the heavy base cabinets.

[Prashun Patel]

I think you'll be fine as is. If it were me, I'd probably rip the two large boards just to end up with all boards roughly the same width, so if any seams were visible, they'd at least look uniform. Further, it's a little cheap added insurance to rip and flip. I do my big glue ups like this one board at a time. If you're gluing everything at once, then leaving the 2 large ones in tact apriori will lower the sweat-shimmy-bang-bang factor.

[John TenEyck]

I disagree. No advantage in ripping boards, especially quartersawn boards as narrow as 9". If you need to eliminate sapwood for esthetic reasons rip away, but if the boards will warp they will warp at 5" as at 9". Glue ups of lots of narrow boards just look cheap, in my opinion.

In particular I don't recommend alternating growth rings--following Tage Frid. If boards glued alternatively do cup, then you have a washboard. If the growth rings are all in the same direction, then the warp can pretty easily be tamed by the attachment on the ends to the heavy base cabinets.

+1 I agree. Even when I make a slab out of plain sawn wood, I match the boards for best appearance, first, and worry about which way the growth rings are pointing second. I have a unused slab in my basement made with 5 - 6" wide plain sawn red oak, which I oriented with alternating growth rings. It's a very nice washboard now - there would be no hope of flattening it except by planing the whole thing again.

[Scott T Smith]

Scott, if your material is quartersawn oak you should not need to worry about excessive wood movement (with the possible exception of any boards that have knots, crotchwood, feathered grain, etc. in them).

Inconsistent wood movement is usually related to the cellular orientation, exposure to moisture changes, or both. Quartersawn lumber has minimal inconsistent movement.

In support of that comment, attached are three photos. The first one is an edge photo of a pair of wide QSWO boards; you will note from viewing the edge that the board(s) behind it are flat. These started out as 5/4 boards, and have been S2S'd down to around 7/8".



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The second photo is a front shot of the same pair of QSWO boards from the first photo. The one on the left is 19" wide, the one on the right is 18". I S2S'd both of these boards about 7 months ago, and they have been exposed to the normal humidity changes that have occured in my shop over the fall, winter and spring. They have been standing up against a wall or in a rack ever since w/o any weight on them to "keep them flat". No cupping has been observed.


194861



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If 18" and 19" wide QSWO boards stay flat, I don't think that you need to worry.

Regards,

Scott

[Rod Sheridan]

Scott, I've made many table tops from QSWO, and use the boards as wide as they can be.

I really dislike the table tops I see that look like they're glued up out of 1 X 2's.

Regards, Rod.

[Chip Lindley]

...Even when I make a slab out of plain sawn wood, I match the boards for best appearance, first, and worry about which way the growth rings are pointing second. I have a unused slab in my basement made with 5 - 6" wide plain sawn red oak, which I oriented with alternating growth rings. It's a very nice washboard now - there would be no hope of flattening it except by planing the whole thing again.

Isn't that why they make wide-belt or wide-drum sanders? Any slab I glue up will be over-thickness to allow for final finishing.

If all boards were oriented with growth rings in the same direction, you would have a very pronounced cup in the whole panel now. How would you propose to flatten that one?

[scott vroom]

OK, wide boards it is! Here's pics of the lumber going through the planer and jointer....using the room adjacent to the shop for the outfeed. The roller stands worked great.

The final project will be 25.5" wide so we ended up ripping an inch or so of sapwood off the edges of 2 boards.

Next is the glue up....proabably on the tile kitchen floor. We're going to do two 2-board glue ups, run each through the planer then do a final single seam glue up.

We're going to end up with a 1" slab.....any thoughts on how to treat the desk front edge? I was thinking about a double roundover (but not a full bullnose). Maybe running a 1/2" roundover on the top and bottom edges? Appreciate any inputs and ideas....thx!

[Jim Becker]

I'm one of those folks that will never rip a nice wide board for gluing up a panel. The movement across the width will be the same and how you incorporate the panel into a project will insure that it stays flat. I also don't do the "alternating growth rings" thing, either...best face always goes on top. I will take great pains with grain and color matching so that any glue joints I do have will disappear or nearly disappear if at all possible. In my ideal world, a panel would be from one board with no glue joint... :)

[John TenEyck]

Isn't that why they make wide-belt or wide-drum sanders? Any slab I glue up will be over-thickness to allow for final finishing.

If all boards were oriented with growth rings in the same direction, you would have a very pronounced cup in the whole panel now. How would you propose to flatten that one?

The slab I referenced was drum sanded flat after glue-up but now, months later, it is a washboard. If I had attached that slab when it was flat to a table it would still be a washboard today. If I had attached a slab made from boards with the growth rings all in the same direction, it might have cupped a little in one direction or the other, but it would be hard to notice compared to how a washboard one looks and feels. If I had left it in the shop as a slab it probably would have a great big curl in it now. But the point is to attach it to your project while it's flat, and it will stay flat.

[Kent A Bathurst]

........We're going to end up with a 1" slab.....any thoughts on how to treat the desk front edge? I was thinking about a double roundover (but not a full bullnose). Maybe running a 1/2" roundover on the top and bottom edges?

I round-over the edges of some stuff, but 1/2" would be a bit too extreme for me, even for something on the scale of what you are making. I'd prolly hang out in the 1/4" - 5/16" range. If I might make a suggestion - start with something smaller, like one of those. See what you think. You can always increase the radius with a subsequent pass if you don't like it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Scott, in my opinion, I wouldn't use a round over on that desk top.

I would put a shallow bevel on the underside and just break the top edge with a gentle sanding.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Griffin]

I'm one of those folks that will never rip a nice wide board for gluing up a panel. The movement across the width will be the same and how you incorporate the panel into a project will insure that it stays flat. I also don't do the "alternating growth rings" thing, either...best face always goes on top. I will take great pains with grain and color matching so that any glue joints I do have will disappear or nearly disappear if at all possible. In my ideal world, a panel would be from one board with no glue joint... :)


Yep. Last time I glued up a 26" wide x 11' dresser top out of oak I used 2 boards!

Scott--Since we're throwing out roundover opinions, I'd just ease the bottom edge and use 1/4" round on top. A large roundover on the bottom only makes your top look thinner.

-Steve

[Frank Drew]

I disagree. No advantage in ripping boards, especially quartersawn boards as narrow as 9". If you need to eliminate sapwood for esthetic reasons rip away, but if the boards will warp they will warp at 5" as at 9". Glue ups of lots of narrow boards just look cheap, in my opinion.

In particular I don't recommend alternating growth rings--following Tage Frid. If boards glued alternatively do cup, then you have a washboard. If the growth rings are all in the same direction, then the warp can pretty easily be tamed by the attachment on the ends to the heavy base cabinets.

+2.

As noted by others, the alternating growth rings strategy wouldn't apply in this case since the wood is quartered. With flat sawn stock, aside from the washboard effect, you often get an alternating light/dark effect in the finished panel when you turn every other board over.

For the best visual effect, I'd probably put the 8" and 9" boards in the center and the 5" and 6" outside, but the wood will have the final say.

[Steve Jenkins]

I always use best face up and don't pay any attention to the rings. Equal finish on both faces and I don't have any warping problems. Doesn't matter what the cut is quartered,flatsawn,rift. You need to make sure that the panel is dead flat when you clamp it. Alternating faces against the jointer fence will go a long way toward insuring this.

[Maik Tobin]

I always use best face up and don't pay any attention to the rings. Equal finish on both faces and I don't have any warping problems. Doesn't matter what the cut is quartered,flatsawn,rift. You need to make sure that the panel is dead flat when you clamp it. Alternating faces against the jointer fence will go a long way toward insuring this.

Totally agree. I make approximately 40-50 tables per year and that is how I do it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I round-over the edges of some stuff, but 1/2" would be a bit too extreme for me, even for something on the scale of what you are making. I'd prolly hang out in the 1/4" - 5/16" range. If I might make a suggestion - start with something smaller, like one of those. See what you think. You can always increase the radius with a subsequent pass if you don't like it.


Quoting myself....:D...I should have emphasized the some ....I'm making a bunch of tables for a set - DR table, end tables, couple others....and all I'm doing is running a block plane down the edge to break it a bit...when I'm done, the 45* face is maybe 3/32" to 1/8" wide, and then the final hand-sanding pretty much obsures that anyway. I wasn't taking a position on "should I use a roundover bit" because that's a personal preference/design thing.

On a couple other hall tables that will be following those, I intend to make pretty serious bevels, to take the 13/16" floating tops down to about half that on the "show edges" - again, personal preference/design issue [fortunately, the client simply says "do what you want" so I will].

[Rob Cunningham]

I'm one of those folks that will never rip a nice wide board for gluing up a panel. The movement across the width will be the same and how you incorporate the panel into a project will insure that it stays flat. I also don't do the "alternating growth rings" thing, either...best face always goes on top. I will take great pains with grain and color matching so that any glue joints I do have will disappear or nearly disappear if at all possible. In my ideal world, a panel would be from one board with no glue joint... :)

What Jim said.

[scott vroom]

Here's a couple of update pics. We glued up 2 pairs of boards and ran through the planer with none of the difficulties we experienced when planing the individual boards. We cranked the 2 table lock knobs very tightly and were more careful to keep the stock stable and well supported. We then glued up the 2 planed halves into the final 13' x 26" slab without difficulty.

I'm considering whether to try and find a shop willing to run the slab through an industrial sized drum sander or just sand ourselves using our ROS's. All we need to do is knock off the glue line and smooth the plank so will probably save time and cost and do it ourselves.

Tomorrow we'll begin the finishing process. The plan is to apply GF Seal-A-Cell, GF Antique Walnut Gel Stain to pop the grain, GF Clear Enduro Poly with crosslock added for extra hardness. We're not going to attempt to fill the grain; our experiments showed that we can get a top suitable for writing with 5 or 6 sprayed coats of the poly (2 coats/day to allow time for curing/hardening between coats).

We'll let the slab cure in our shop for several days; the customer has agreed to allow the desktop to cure in place at least a week before using.

[Curt Putnam]

How wide is your planer?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Scott - looking at the photos again, 2 observations:
1] sure is nice to have the heavy machines on wheels, eh?
2] I use QSWO quite a lot. Over time, I finally figured out something that should have been easier to deduce: The open pores of the QSWO make for a lot of work in getting out glue that gets smeared in there, so I have grooves [maybe 1/2" wide by 3/8" deep] cut into my cauls. These grooves ride over the glue line, and the squeeze-out bead lifts off pretty easily with a card scraper after 60 - 90 minutes [while it is still rubbery]. Saves a lot of time with scrapers and sanders.

Looks very nice - big-scale stuff always presents new challenges.

Kent

[Lee Schierer]

I always use best face up and don't pay any attention to the rings. Equal finish on both faces and I don't have any warping problems. Doesn't matter what the cut is quartered,flatsawn,rift. You need to make sure that the panel is dead flat when you clamp it. Alternating faces against the jointer fence will go a long way toward insuring this.

I agree completely. Go for appearance and don't worry about the board orientation. Finish both sides equally and secure the top so it can move without warping or cupping.

[scott vroom]

Kent, grooves in the cauls over the glue lines is a great idea...thx! Yeah, the cauls really smooshed the glue on this job.

Here's a couple of update pics of the newly stained slab. We sanded top and bottom with 150 grit ROS and put a 3/16 roundover on the top and bottom edges. I'm happy with the look.

You'll notice one of the boards is a different color, which really accentuates the seam :(. It took us a long time to locate a supply of 13' 5/4 QSWO and when we did, the selection was crappy. Still, it's all beautiful lumber.

We changed our finishing schedule to GF Antique Walnut Gell Stain and GF Arm-R-Seal topcoat. We decided we didn't like the look of the Enduro Clear Poly. Tomorrow we'll lay on 2 coats of the Arm-R-Seal and then install the slab onto the base cabinets (right side base pictured). It'll be nice to get this big slab out of the shop!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Looks nice, Scott.

I can tell you where you can get 13' 5/4 QSWO - bookmatched, no less. But - you probably don't wanna know the cost.

[scott vroom]

Kent, 5/4 goes for $6.54/BF here in nor cal....and it's not easy to find in the longer lengths. Go ahead, tell me what you pay...I can take it :)

....and Happy 70th to Bob Dylan.

[Kent A Bathurst]

That's a very reasonable price - it ain't grown there on the Left Coast.......

PM on the other thing.......................

[Montgomery Scott]

Yeah.

All things being equal, you're less likely to get warp/cupping with narrower boards, and alternating direction of your annular growth rings.

I think the QS will *minimize* the need for that, but -- since it won't *eliminate* it ... I'd probably minimize the risk, and rip some of the wider boards.

Good luck. Fun project ... and ... with beautiful stock :)

Why do people continue to give this bad advice? This subject was dealt with and debunked decades ago in FWW. The only you'll achieve is a washboard if the boards warp. It is always best to have the growth rings the same direction. It is much easier to restrain a uniform curvilinear surface warpage than a washboard type distortion.

[Prashun Patel]

Why do people continue to give this bad advice?

Because it's either our experience or in my case or what we've read, or a combination of both. I think we have to take a grain of salt with any advice given here. Nothing is qualified, and the reader should be careful to take multiple inputs or from a trusted source b4 making a decision.

Unless I've lived and learned it, I try to preface my posts with "If it were me..." or "here's what I would do".

I don't think you need to get testy and make it seem like we're idiots or have bad intentions. If you want people to stop giving 'bad' advice, and ask the mods to create a forum that only qualified experts can post answers to. Don't slam people like me or Neil for trying to help.

[Mike Heidrick]

Glue it up teh way it looks best to you. 1/8" roundover makes a nice eased consistent edge.

[Peter Quinn]

Top looks great Scott. Nice finishing there. I'm a big fan of the general finishes enduro var my self. I like to start with it then switch to a water white clear for build once I'm at the sort of amber color I like. Seems to do nice things for brown species and even hard maple. I make a lot of tops at work and am in the "never rip a wide board" school unless it is already cupped and must be ripped to get the cup out, mostly on flat sawn but also on some qs material too. I'll rip those on the BS to minimize the kerf loss and keep the grain match decent, sometimes you cant even tell the board was ripped. I've also found the "perfect" board had a crack up the whole length, and ripped this out on the BS too, joint, reglue, nearly invisible. Other wise, it doesn't matter to me if you add or multiply to get to finished width, the tendency to cup remains the same. Good support from below or bread board ends, battens, these things deal with cupping. Ripping and flipping? Nonsense IMO. Nobody likes to work on a washboard. The only time I'll rip boards is to make edge grain butcher blocks.

We have had customers call insisting on "QSWO in the 18" to 20" wide range" that didn't want glue ups! My boss does get some material as wide as 12"-14" in QSWO, but its a bit rare, and rarely yields more than a 9"10" face once milled. We have to tell these people "Sorry, you missed that lumber by about 125 years, but good luck in finding it."! Not many WO trees left with a base diameter big enough to produce 20" QS lumber, but if I found one, I wouldn't rip that material either!

[scott vroom]

Thanks, Peter.

I was looking at the gf enduro var for this project but the customer wants to stay away from the amber look. This job is antique walnut stain and gf arm-r-seal, which is much clearer than the enduro-var. I'm fairly new to natural wood finishing so am still finding my way through the huge array of products out there.

I'm really digging working on qswo on this project.....man o man it's nice stuff.

[scott vroom]

Finally finished the 12' x 26" QSWO desktop slab and installed it yesterday. Going to put in some oak side splashes to trim it out. We designed in a 1" gap between the rear edge of the desktop and the wall for access to a wire channel we built into the base cabinets. Here's a few pics including an early-on mockup of the wire channel.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Looks cool, Scott. I like the design of the cable chase.

[Neil Brooks]

Bravo !

Excellent result !

One question: I see that baseboard radiator ... right underneath your clear span of the top. What measures, if any, have you taken (or ... do others think he SHOULD take) to keep the heat from drying out one side, and inducing warp.

I know we're dealing with quarter-sawn, but ... my gut tells me that's a fairly extreme circumstance, and that .... something (radiant barrier foil on the underside ???) might be needed, there.

Anybody agree ? Disagree ?

Our wonderful SMC QSWO sawyer, Scott ??

Great job !!

[scott vroom]

Neil, thanks for the nice words.

As for the heater, you ask a good question; I never considered the possibility. Looking forward to comments from others that may have experience with this. There is a 1" gap along the back of the desktop which will allow heat to rise. By the way, I did apply equal coats of finish to top and bottom to address normal movement.

[Jim Becker]

Really looks beautiful, Scott!

[scott vroom]

Thanks guys....and for the helpful suggestions along the way :)

[Scott T Smith]

Bravo !

Excellent result !

One question: I see that baseboard radiator ... right underneath your clear span of the top. What measures, if any, have you taken (or ... do others think he SHOULD take) to keep the heat from drying out one side, and inducing warp.

I know we're dealing with quarter-sawn, but ... my gut tells me that's a fairly extreme circumstance, and that .... something (radiant barrier foil on the underside ???) might be needed, there.

Anybody agree ? Disagree ?

Our wonderful SMC QSWO sawyer, Scott ??

Great job !!

Neil, that was a very good catch regarding the heater.

Scott, if it were mine, I would be a little bit concerned. If the heater was only used occasionally, for relatively short periods of time on a low setting, then it would probably be ok. If it is used more frequently on a higher setting, then problems may result due to temperature differences across the desk top. The center portion may be up to 90 degrees, and the sides around 65. Also, the back side of the desk top may be colder than the front (fan forcing heat forward).

It sounds like you've done all the right things in the installation (using QS, sealing both sides, using KD material, etc). I can understand the customers desire to have warm feet, and they may not want to disable the heater (probably the best course of action). So, as a safety measure, if it were me I would have someone sit at the desk and turn the heater on for 20 minutes or so, and check the bottom side of the boards with an infrared thermometer. If the temps are notable, I would add some Tekfoil or equivalent (foil, bubble, bubble, white poly) and foam board insulation on the bottom side of the open portion of the deak, with the foil side down. Tekfoil does an excellent job of reflecting heat (I use it inside one of my kilns), and the foam board provides good passive insulation.

I think that most BORG's now carry some type of Tekfoil equivalent.

On a side note, the top really came out nice!

Scott

[scott vroom]

The risk is probably lowered due to 1) the house is located in San Jose, California where the winters are moderate and heaters typically don't stay on long enough to generate that much heat and 2) the desk is in an office that will be partially heated via forced air central heating in the adjacent room. The old baseboard heater that we removed was rarely used according to the homeowner; he wanted a new one installed for those California winter days when the outside temperature plunges into the 50's to keep his toesies warm :)

Good inputs though and I'll check out the Tekfoil at the Borg...looks like cheap insurance.

Thanks

[Prashun Patel]

That top looks really great. Really perfect. Nice color; nice decision to use wide planks. Just nice. Congrats.