Pocket hole joints vs mortise & tenon joints

[dennis thompson]

When I make joints using my Kreg pocket hole jig I get nice tight clean joints but feel that maybe I'm cheating? I'm building a kitchen table & have determined to use mortise & tenon joints. I've finished the first one & have to say it's not nearly as clean, squared up, without gaps, etc as my pocket hole joints. What do you use? Do you think the pocket hole joints are as strong as the mortise & tenon joints? Anyone else feel the same "guilt":o about pocket hole joints ? I'm just a hobbiest not a pro.
Thanks
Dennis

[John TenEyck]

Pocket hole joints are fine for many non-structural applications, like connecting faceframes together, but I wouldn't use it someplace where strength is important during use, like table leg/apron joints. There, I would use a M&T. M&T joints aren't hard to make nice and tight as long as you start with square stock and set up your equipment to cut square. Those are usually the source for why joints don't fit together well. I mostly use mortise and loose tenon joints these days. I find them much easier and faster to cut, and the tenons always fit well w/o having to tweak them. You might consider that approach with your table.

[jonathan eagle]

When I make joints using my Kreg pocket hole jig I get nice tight clean joints but feel that maybe I'm cheating? I'm building a kitchen table & have determined to use mortise & tenon joints. I've finished the first one & have to say it's not nearly as clean, squared up, without gaps, etc as my pocket hole joints. What do you use? Do you think the pocket hole joints are as strong as the mortise & tenon joints? Anyone else feel the same "guilt":o about pocket hole joints ? I'm just a hobbiest not a pro.
Thanks
Dennis
What exactly is the source of your guilt? I am sure someone may tell you you MUST use MT joints, otherwise you are a bum. But one can always tell them that they should be using hand tools and they should feel guilty for that! Maybe one should be making all their own tools, as well. Or maybe smelting their own iron? This is really a personal decision and you shouldn't feel bad about any of it. Just worry about meeting the need for strength etc..
Jonathan

[Prashun Patel]

People around here don't prefer M&T over pocket hole for structural joints because they're purists, it's because it's a stronger joint here. There are other fine choices, like a loose tenon, bridle, or even a sufficiently doweled joint.

A pocket hole joint depends on a couple screws for holding power, since one side of the joint will be end grain and hence won't hold well under glue. Some of the other joint types increase the amount of face or mating edge surfaces so that any glue can really do its job well. IMHO, that's the real benefit of an alternate joint here.

[Mike Monroe]

I second the suggestion to looking into loose tenon joints. IMHO making two mortises and one loose tenon is easier than a M&T. I don't think the loose tenon joint is any weaker than a M&T.

[Stephen Cherry]

Mortise and tenon is easy as can be, if you make an investment in a little tooling. The trick is to match your tenon cutter with your mortising tool so that the thickness of the tenon is a function of the tooling.

Lot's of ways to do this. Most basic is router bit with tenon jig for the table saw. The tenon is cut using a spacer that is shifted from one side of the board to the other to give a tenon of the right thickness. Basically, the spacer is the thickness of the router bit, plus a saw curf.

I use a shaper with special cutters, but a bandsaw will also work. Just pick your method, and practice it.

[glenn bradley]

I use pocket holes for convenience on some things. I too would shy away from using them on structural things that I wanted to outlast me. Pocket holes are stronger than one might think if any of the joint stress test articles are accurate. They are reportedly stronger than biscuits and the Domino but, they're no m&t. Even dowels test better in the few tests I've seen. This does not mean they don't have their place. Depending on the piece I will use various joints. My go-to for jointing end to face is a floating m&t. I use a Mortise Pal.

[Frank Drew]

I I don't think the loose tenon joint is any weaker than a M&T. It might be slightly weaker than an integral tenon joint because a glued tenon can work loose but an integral tenon can't. In practical terms, though, a loose tenon is plenty strong as long as it's cut well and there's enough glue surface.

Is a pocket hole joint just a plain butt joint reinforced with screws, or is there at least a stub tenon?

[Gene Waara]

Funny because I had a conversation with LOML on this subject just last night. She makes quilts as a hobby and took a class on Saturday to learn some new techniques. In the class were “purists” who thought a task should only be done one way and there were those who favored easier methods. I told her same with ww’ers using pocket holes as the example. I told her I use pocket holes for face frames but many purists will only use M & T. My point was 99% of the population will not know the difference when looking at the face frame and as a hobbyist I’ll pursue the easiest path that gives me the best result. Like Dennis, however, I sometime feel a bit guilty knowing that I could be improving my skills using more traditional methods. I have been doing that with recent furniture projects using floating tenons. A table I plan to make in the near future will allow will test my first M & T joinery. That said, until I retire and have unlimited time to pursue my hobby, I’ll use pocket holes for face frames without guilt saving more time for those projects that really need M & T joinery.

[Myk Rian]

I'm not a purist, but I feel pocket hole joints put a piece in a class similar to Wal-Mart furniture.
I prefer to take the time to do it right. If not M&T, I'll use dowels.
OK all, slam me. I can take it.

[glenn bradley]

Is a pocket hole joint just a plain butt joint reinforced with screws, or is there at least a stub tenon?

Just butted and screwed. The pan-head screw seated in the flat bottom hole and screwed into long grain provides the mechanical strength (versus screwed into end grain) but, I glue mine too when I use them.

[dave toney]

I use mortise and tenon joints on most furniture and pocket hole joints on cabinet cases, and I do agree that mortise and tenon joints are stronger, but I have been amazed at how strong a pocket hole joint can be.
I have put cabinet face frames together incorrectly and had to disassemble them, most of the time the joint breaks on the stiles leaving pieces stuck to the end grain.
Dave

[Paul Symchych]

Dennis: I don't "do" guilt. There is no gain in it.
If something is meant to be temporary or relatively unstressed by all means use whatever gets the job done even if others may think it is quick and dirty.
In addition to their strength I happen to like making M&T joints. Nothing purist about it. Typically cross pegged as a decorative touch and to add even more strength. It just takes a little practice. I've done 'em by hand but its easier and quicker to use a plunge router; clean mortises out with a chisel and cut tenons on the bandsaw.
Will anyone notice or care? No. But I will know that once glued and pegged that joint isn't going to wobble or go anywhere. Ever.

[Mark Conde]

I have made (with confidence) many project with pocket holes and screws. And I have made many projects with MT, DT, and sliding dovetail joints. I just know in my head/heart which joint is best for the project that I am working on. I think it is silly to let others make you feel guilty for using one type of joinery over another.

I have made house filled of kid's furniture using pocket hole joinery and they have all held up very well. I also made many tables, desks and other case work using MT. They have been stood the test of time so far. You just kinda know which type of joinery is best suited for the project at hand. Often I will use MT and pocket holes in case work.

[Don Morris]

Dennis, I've made this comment a couple times. I use pocket joints when indicated. LOML doesn't like their looks and I agree in some places they are not aesthetic. A while ago we got in a high end piece of Stickley furniture. It was the right piece for the right place. While putting it into place I noticed that in several out of sight joints they used pocket joints. I called this to LOMLs attention. She now isn't so concerned about their usage. Surely Stickley wouldn't use them if they felt their reputation would suffer because they used them.

[Mike Harrison]

I'm in the M&T camp when it comes to any load bearing or structural application. A little tooling, and floating tenons are quick and easy to do. Pocket screws are just another assembly method, which to me is more expedient, but certainly not "Traditional." What ever method you use, practice helps.

[Max Coller]

Just to complicate things further (and when don't I enjoy a reasonably solid attempt at that?) there's a matrix in my mind with three axes. Left to right, you have an increasing scale of pride in your craftsmanship. From the bottom going up, you have increasing durability/strength. And, the z axis is of course the one some have to consider, and others might not care so much about - the return on the investment in your time. If you are making production furniture and time is money, there's an adequate compromise to be had between craftsmanship, strength, and time. It's a pocket screw. Or, perhaps a biscuit. If your reputation as a builder of high-quality furniture or personal pride in accomplishing something significant with each joint matters and cost/time invested doesn't quite as much, consider a M&T joint. I've never actually timed myself, but I would guess I could knock out three pocket screw joints for each M&T, setup time included. But, I know they're in there and for some pieces that will bother me. And I also know when I've used blind tenons and built a nearly indestructible piece of furniture that has taken me much more of the weekend when I really should have also mowed the lawn, taken the dog for a walk, cleaned out the garage, done the laundry and picked up the used dog food in the back yard. One of these gives me the warm fuzzies much more so than the other.

[Andrew Joiner]

Dennis, I've made this comment a couple times. I use pocket joints when indicated. LOML doesn't like their looks and I agree in some places they are not aesthetic. A while ago we got in a high end piece of Stickley furniture. It was the right piece for the right place. While putting it into place I noticed that in several out of sight joints they used pocket joints. I called this to LOMLs attention. She now isn't so concerned about their usage. Surely Stickley wouldn't use them if they felt their reputation would suffer because they used them.

Thanks Don.
Isn't it funny how us woodworkers see things. We LOOK at how things are built.
It's easy to see lots of pocket joints on low cost woodwork. But when you see it on a Stickley piece can we now say it's a sign of quality? It would be a good sales tool to point out to a client that Stickley uses them.

Egyptians were the first people known to make plywood. Can you imagine how the Egyptian woodworker who discovered laminating plys sold this idea to his clients? I would bet some samples were made to prove and sell the design. After all to some it looks weak and cheap.

I test all my joints with samples to the breaking point. Especially on new designs. This is the best way to know the true "quality" of the joint.

[Glen Blanchard]

I'm not a purist either, but I understand Dennis's thought process. I reserve pocket screws for plywood cabinets. I don't think I'd feel good about using them with fine furniture, but that's just me.

[Chris Friesen]

It's all about what's appropriate. Pocket holes have their place where strength isn't a major concern, nobody is likely to see the hole, or it's a utility piece. I wouldn't use them on leg-to-apron joints though.

Similarly, plywood and even mdf have places where they're the best choice of material.

[Erik Christensen]

I go with fabrication approaches that match my tooling - as I suspect pretty much everybody does.

I have both a loose tenon tool (Domino) and Kreg jig. I like pocket hole screws - they hold well, are easy to create & assemble and offer pretty good strength in tension along the axis of the screw - BUT I don't care for the tendency to mis-align when driving screws and the fact that even with glue there is not much strength perpendicular to the screw axis. A combo of loose tenons and pocket screws works great for joints where the screw holes won't show (or you can fill with a contrasting plug and make part of the design) - the tenon offers great perpendicular strength and prevents the screw insertion from causing mis-alignment while the screws eliminate the need to clamp the tenon joint.

I don't much care what others think about how I choose to design & build things (this is a hobby for me not a business) - if it meets my needs and I like how it looks that is all that matters to me.