Moderator Notice - please read

[Ken Salisbury]

Some posters are including their web site link in their "signature" information. Please edit your signature information to remove the web site link.

Please read Keith's post regarding this subject:


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/announcement.php?s=&forumid=7

<p align="center">
This will save me from having to edit your posts.

"YOUR FRIENDLY MODERATOR"

[Lee Schierer]

Does this mean that if some one asks me how to make raised panels on a table saw, that I can't post a link to my web site where I have the instructions and photos for doing that?

Lee:confused: :confused:

[Keith Outten]

Our forum software provides a button to link to your personal or professional web site. Everyone is free to use the www button to link to any woodworking site they choose, when people use their web site in tag lines and in the body of messages it starts looking too commercial and lots of people are getting concerned. When our messages start looking like advertisements "VISIT MY WEBSITE" too many people get upset as we have promised that there would not be any commercial content.

Lee,
You can certainly let people know that you have information on your web site that is applicable to a particular post or message, tell them to use the www button for more information or I've got that on my web site, in your message. The advertisement style taglines are the real problem.

We just want to keep SMC clean and enjoyable.

Every message has a WWW button at the bottom of the message. Use the UserCP button to enter the URL of your web site.

[Bob Janka]

Originally posted by Lee Schierer
Does this mean that if some one asks me how to make raised panels on a table saw, that I can't post a link to my web site where I have the instructions and photos for doing that?

Lee:confused: :confused:

I'm hoping that my fellow waders at SawMillCreek will NOT perceive "informative" links as "commercial".

Sounds to me like a link such as Lee describes would and should be acceptable in a message, whereas a link to someone's e-store should be placed in that person's user profile and referenced indirectly.

Such a policy helped me immensely in the last few months. I have recently started turning pens and hope to make it a break-even, if not profitable, hobby. Informational links to what specialized equipment is required for pen-turning was provided when I requested it. I am very grateful for that sharing.

On the other hand, I understand the concerns and will not directly reference any web-pages I have which provide a personal gain. Any such references will hide in my user profile and I will direct people who are interested to go through the "WWW" button to access those pages.

Is this a fair and accurate statement of the intent expressed in this policy? If not, please help me understand how to be a good "creek citizen".

Cheers,
Bob
pen-turner (hobby first, profits later?)

[Ron Meadows]

Keith,

I agree with the previous post. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a direct link if pertinent information is being presented. What gives? This is the first time I've smelled a hint of the Pond and King Wayne's multitude of rules and regulations.......too bad.....I was really enjoying this place.

Ron

[Glenn Clabo]

Do I hear a....

[Ron Meadows]

No....just the sound of disappointment. I may be in the minority, but I really never cared for all the rules and regulations about this and that on the pond. (The fact that they were selectively enforced is another conversation). That is the biggest reason that I rarely posted there. Granted it's their forum and they can choose the rule set....I'll just browse here too then.


Ron

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

I'm getting a little bored with where this is going..... I would certainly like to hear from those that were getting concerned of the "creeping commercialism".

My signature was linked to a message about how much I liked this forum but, while I'm here: "Does anyone here have crooked teeth and good insurance? Call Dr. Zack at BR549"

I personally don't see a problem. Obviously Keith and Ken are more perceptive than I. Of course, I always was a trouble maker...... I guess I can't help it.

An observation Most of the blatant ads were from honest woodworkers that, more than anything else, have worked hard on a little Mom & Pop website. 99.9% of us are not going to buy crafts, etc. from another woodworker and yes, we can click on the WWW button. But.... was this really a problem ? ? Sawmill Creek is obviously sucessful. Will it be more so with this new rule. I think not? Have any of these so called ads brought fame or fortune to any poster? I think not.

[Steve K]

There is a really fine line between ruining a forum with no rules and ruining one with too many rules. I always thought it was an assinine rule of the pond not to allow links to personal webistes, esspecially when asked for, pertinent information was available. Having the "www" button on this forum makes it a little easier to accept. Don't post a lot so I don't have a lot to say about this. it's unfortunate that some users are concerned that personal links are posted. I'm concerned that they're not allowed anymore.
Steve K

[Jim McFall]

Sorry Doc. !! Can't resist, I have crooked Insurance, Straight teeth. :D

[Jim Izat]

The folks who both support and moderate this board are doing so at no cost to those of us who use and benefit from it. As it is for all intents and purposes a free <b>and</b> very valuable resource, (how many others can you name?) I don't get why people take issue about what the "rules" may or may not be. If it were a subscription service for which certain benefits were promised for the fee charged, then it might make more sense to me.

Jim Izat

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

..........I appreciate the precious time that the originators and moderators dedicate to this board. I REALLY like it here, and there has to be SOME organization and regulation in order to maintain the integrity of Sawmill Creek. If someone has a Website or Online realm that they would like others to be aware of, just use the "WWW" button like Keith politely requested. If members or visitors are really into the information here at the Creek, they will eventually check out every feature, including the WWW button utilized by many of us. I have been going thru the member list when I get a chance, and I have been visiting the sites........and will eventually get to them all. I look at them as a tributary of Sawmill Creek! Anyway, I applaud the job those who make this board possible are doing, and I don't think a few rules to abide by is too much to ask.

[Paul Kunkel]

Originally posted by Kevin Gersty
..........I appreciate the precious time that the originators and moderators dedicate to this board. I REALLY like it here, and there has to be SOME organization and regulation in order to maintain the integrity of Sawmill Creek. If someone has a Website or Online realm that they would like others to be aware of, just use the "WWW" button like Keith politely requested. If members or visitors are really into the information here at the Creek, they will eventually check out every feature, including the WWW button utilized by many of us. I have been going thru the member list when I get a chance, and I have been visiting the sites........and will eventually get to them all. I look at them as a tributary of Sawmill Creek! Anyway, I applaud the job those who make this board possible are doing, and I don't think a few rules to abide by is too much to ask.
:( The rules should then be prominently posted or no one should be banned for a minor infraction. After I was banned from the Pond, I came here hoping for a democratic society. I thought I'd found it until yesterday. 'Nuf said for now!!! :mad:

[John Weber]

I think I was one of the rule breakers, I simply included my web site in the signature file so it showed up on every post. It's a "commerical" venture, however my real job is a stay at home Dad, so the woodworking related business is part time. On the site I try to provide help as well as make sales. Did I like being able include it with my post - yes, did it increase sales - hard to say, will I delete it - yes. In general I think including web sites make the site a bit more of a resource for woodworkers, but I understand the reason we are not allowed. So no biggie, I just though I would put my 2 cents in...

John

P.S. I had some graphics made for my web site on my new trailer (see trailer update post), maybe I should just include a photo with every post - just kidding...

[John Christiansen]

I guess I have to agree with all of those that have taken exception to this latest definement of the rule against posting a link to private sites in the message or signature. What brought that on? I'm thinking maybe you've got yourselves another King.

Although I don't post often, I was starting to like the open attitude that I believed this site was trying to exhibit. I'll have to reassess my opinion now.

Carefull folks! When the "Moderator" starts arbitrarily editing your post and daming up the creek, Your just gonna find yourselves with a stagnant pond.

[Tom Sweeney]

As if anyone cares ;)

Guys - Keith & company own this here web site. It's a pretty darn good one! They have worked their tails off to give us Ponder refugee's a home. Do you all really want a community with no rules? Anarchy can be a pretty ugly deal.

We all have rules we have to deal with - some are good some aren't. I own a 66 mustang that my township will not let me park on my own driveway that I own 80' off a public road. Should I sell my house & move to a more lenient township or just express my displeasure with the rule - I believe privately to the people that made it - & move on with my life. And in this case I pay these folks a lot of $$ each year in property taxes. I pay Keith $0 for this here forum.

Is Keith acting like a King? I don't think so, but he is acting like the owner & moderator of this forum that he has put together for us for free. Do you have any idea how much$ it costs for something like this? How about these estimates:
Sparq20 server $1,200 do they have a RAID setup? - $6,000
Direct pipeline to the backbone of the Internet? $4,500 / month (OK we don't use all of that let's call it $300 /month) - Programing time - let's see $75 / hour - how many hours do you think they have in this - 100, 200? Upkeep & maintenance - $20 / hour. Gosh couldn't Keith - I don't know spend the time he spends here building his own businesses? $5,000 - $50,000 /year. All this & we really don't think he has the right to set any rules??? I believe we need to cut some slack here IMHO.

Of course there are rules that are worth fighting for & against - I just think it's prudent to pick your fights & try to understand the other side first.

Maybe sometimes Keith & co. will go overboard with the rules. I think I even might have made a mistake one time - many years ago. IE: they are only human.

I for one am willing to give the people in charge the benefit of the doubt that they are doing everything they can to make this an enjoyable place & I think they are succeeding. I think the idea here, and Keith please correct me if I am wrong,

but there are a lot of very informative web sites here - Jim Becker's comes to mind. Lets say I'm looking for info on a fold down outfeed table. Jim can reply with hey Tom check out my website for how I made one - I think it might help - just click on the WWW link below.

Is this really a big deal? I don't think so - I can click on the WWW button just as easy as if he posted a link in the body of the message. basically his website is on all his messages.

Now should a person be banned for a first offense of a rule we might not yet be 100% clear on - NO & I hope that has not happened.

Personally - I don't think it's a big deal to have links in your sig file - then again I don't think it's a big deal to not be able to have links in your sig file. I can find almost anything on the Internet in less than 5 minutes anyway. I just opened another browser - went to google - typed "Jim Becker" woodworking - & came up with 71 results -including his saws N dust web site on the first page of results. Less than 2 minutes total time.

Well that's my 4¢ on the matter (inflation)
Climbing down off my soapbox

I appologize if anyone takes this as personal - it's not meant to be - just adding another opinion to the dialog.

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

Ooops.......

I don't think I encouraged some of the comments I've just read, I only meant to offer a contrary opinion. I hope that this discussion does not prompt anyone to leave the forum as some have made vague mention.

Also, I didn't know anyone had been banned from the Pond and I see no reason to predict that that might happen here. I'm happy at Sawmill Creek and would mourn the loss of any of the participants.

I'm pleased to see some defenders of this policy show thier faces. That makes me reconsider some of my thinking. Changing my signature is not that big a deal to me, I just don't welcome more rules. I am more concerned about some of the stronger responses here.

I didn't see anything in Keith's statement that precludes adding a direct link in the body of your message to someone's outfeed table or a neat jig on Joe Shmoe's Website. The rule is about links in the signature automatically added to each post.

I would be saddened by having to get cryptic with "see my shop tour" etc. type messages. I enjoyed the "Pond" but I hated the tricky little "work arounds" people were forced to use.
<center> Most of all: I'm glad I didn't start this Thread.
I've caused enough trouble. I'm trying to do better.

"As if anyone cares"

Tom started his reponse; "As if anyone cares". I think everyone responding here cares. We care about Keith's opinions and have opinions of our own that we care enough to express. I've read and digested very carefully the opinions of all participants not just on this thread but previous threads discussing rules. I hope that dessenting views are never unwelcome. After all, We are not living in fear, I hope.

[David Rose]

don't like. Evidently some like one thing and some another. This isn't a democracy. It is a private property. The owner can do as he wishes. If it *was* a democracy there would be rules. Rules curtail freedom, but hopefully the good ones do protect someone.

Since Keith has provided another way to link to a site, I really don't see the problem for anyone.

For you dissenters, please don't give up your support of us on the Creek over something like this. Division is never good.

David, who believes freedom is worth blood

[Jerry P. Doan]

I don't have a problem with Keith's or Ken's request at all.

If a person would like to share some information on their personal web site, then it is an easy matter to just refer to their website in the body of the message and direct the reader to click on the www button at the bottom of the page.

I am unaware of any prohibition against including links to other informative websites in the body of the message though. Of course, I am more apt to consider such links more seriously if the poster includes a disclaimer stating that they have no stake in the site.

[Ian Barley]

Keith - Ken - No problem. Thanks for clarifying and thanks for hosting / moderating this party.

[Ian MacDonald]

I guess I agree with Keith's restriction.

I think most reasonable people should be able to see the difference between including a link to your web site related to the topic of discussion versus a link to your website in every post you make by way of a tagline.

Regards,

-- Ian

[Phil B]

I was just going to fade away but since there is a discussion I'll add to it. I do think it is great that someone has given their time and effort to provide a spot on the web for woodworkers to exchange ideas. I also think the format of this forum is one of the best on the web. I understand the function of the www button but don't believe that it's as convenient, mainly though I do not wish to alter my sig line for one board, it makes me feel unwelcome.

I really don't see the problem with someone including their web site in the sig line. I haven't seen any flagrant ads in sig lines so I'm inclined to think the objections are against sites like mine. I'm one of the main "offenders" on the net for this sort of thing so maybe my view is a little skewed. I am a little disappointed that the pond rules are creeping in here, I don't know if I want to stick around to see what else works it way in. I understand the benefits of some rules but too many restrict the flow of useful information which is exactly what was happening on the pond and what I fear is starting to happen here.

I fully realize that I'm not paying for the site here so my options are either to conform or not participate. I don't see the problem with the links, they aren't obtrusive; I actually find them beneficial.

PMB
(Who has some information about woodworking on his own web site so feel free to click the www button to see what it is if you are interested. Or just ignore this part of the message if it in some way offends you.)

[Lee Schierer]

My comment to Ken's post was not a criticism.

It was not questioning the right to limit what is or isn't displayed in a post.

It was not a challenge to the rules.

It was simply a question that probably should have been addressed privately.

I agree with not linking to any site where I have a commercial interest. Providing a link to a site with the relevant information requested by the user is probably legitimate if the hosts say it is. If I ran a commercial site that had the relevant information, then a PM to the requestor gets the same information to them. So does saying you can find the info on my site, just click www below.

[Ken Salisbury]

<p align="center">
See my reply to another thread on the same subject:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=12365#post12365

[Tom Gattiker]

What if my personal site has no commercial content? Can I include a link to content on my site in my posts.

Another issue. I have stuff on my site (including woodworking stuff) that you cannot link to from the main url (The url that on would get by clliking the www button on sawmill creek). Under the current rule, I cannot direct someone to that material. (my personal site primarily supports my job as a college professor, and I do not want too much non-job stuff linked to it). I can live with the rules, but it is important to recognize that this is a limitation that the rules create.

[Dan Bussiere]

I guess I joined this site to get info and interact with others about woodworking. Can we get back to that, please! This is starting to look ugly!
Dan

[Ken Salisbury]

Originally posted by John Christiansen


Carefull folks! When the "Moderator" starts arbitrarily editing your post and daming up the creek, Your just gonna find yourselves with a stagnant pond.

John,

Posts are not arbitraily edited. As a matter of fact only a few posts on the Power Tool Forum have been edited-- most of those were to fix pics and to remove duplicate posts when someone posted the same message twice - by mistake.

Recent editing of links as a result of Keith's decision about them were only for 4 individuals who had the links in their signature blocks (including my own - which was removed).

It would be a real chore to determine which are commercial sites and which are personal sites without the "Moderator" surfing all the sites to determine that.

"Stagnation doesn't occur in a creek because the water is always flowing - unlike a pond in which the water is at a standstill."

[Bill Grumbine]

Originally posted by David Rose
This isn't a democracy. It is a private property. The owner can do as he wishes.

My thoughts exactly David. This isn't a public place, although it might have that appearance. It is whatever Keith wants it to be. No one is being forced to click on the link and come here.

My home isn't a democracy either. I make the rules, and they are my rules, like them or not. We welcome lots of people into our home from the the Pond, from here, and from many other internet fora. There are a few people who would not be welcome in my home, and if any of them would ever attempt it, he would be told (politely of course) to get lost. If he doesn't like it, too bad.

This is Keith's place, and if people don't like the way he is running it, too bad. If people really have a problem with this place there is another on the web where complainers, whiners, and bashers are more than welcome, they are encouraged.

A significant portion of my income is derived from people on these fora, but no one will see me advertising my services or linking to my sites. I will mention encounters in passing, and others often post regarding their experiences, but if someone wants to come see me, they have to find me, and the process is working just fine.

One more thing about links being posted. Sure, there is lots of good info out there, some of it on my personal site. The issue isn't whether or not a link is innocuous, it is whether or not someone is going to have to take the time to sort the good from the bad, or rather the legitimate from the nonlegitimate. That is time consuming, and no matter what the outcome, someone is always going to cry foul.

Maybe I'll be told about being so direct here but you know what? That is the right of the people who built and own this place.

Bill

[Sam Chambers]

...don't let 'em get to you. You, Keith and the others are doing a great job, and I for one truly appreciate what you do. I've managed a few web sites before, and it's alot more work than most people think it is.

Regarding the issue of hyperlinks to personal web sites, it must be noted that some folks have "arrangements" whereby they receive advertising revenue for their sites based on the number of "hits". There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but linking to those sites is not in keeping with the rules of this site. It is not reasonable for us to expect Ken or Keith to personally follow up on each and every link in an effort to weed out those that violate SMC policy. It is up to us to police ourselves.

Let's be careful about the personal attacks, folks. Accusations that the leaders and moderators of this board will start "arbitrarily editing your posts" on a whim are irrseponsible, in my opinion. These comments really shouldn't be made unless you have specific evidence that one of your posts has been edited for content, rather than to enforce the posting rules.

Now, can we please get back to the woodworking discussions?

[Bob Nazro]

I'm the new kid on the block and not being a "Ponder" don't know about the old rules and I can't seem to find the new rules. I looked at the FAQ and didn't see anything about format. I don't have my own site and may occasionally reference a site where I obtained some information in a post. If this is wrong I am sorry, but for the new guys: If you can you put the rules out there I will be glad to follow them. And for all of us remember we have a choice where we go. I like it here so far and will stay for a while:confused:

[Steve Clardy]

I usually don't respond to this kind of posts, I usually just read and leave.
#1- I really like this site.
#2- I also do not like where this post is going.
#3- It doesn't bother me one way or another whether there are links to commercial sites.
#4- I do like the links to personnal and commercial sites for the information that is provided for woodworking.
#5- I do like the help that I receive from this site. I have numerous ones helping me out with picture posting, ideas, etc.
#6- I do like to post my ideas when someone has asked a question that I feel like I can respond to.
#7- I do not post to questions I feel like I cannot answer.
#8- If I post a response to a question and another member posts that maybe that is not a good idea and they would do something different, it does not bother me. They have their opinion and I have mine.
#9- If the rules get to strict for my likings, I will leave.
#10- I do not and will not criticize others here. If I do let me know.
#11- When the criticizim starts, rules are changed to stop it, I leave.
#12- This is and has been a very friendly site.

I really hope that this site stays calm and friendly. The Pond got rough at times and I could see why Wayne had to be strict. If it gets out of hand here and strict rules are put in place, this site does not need to be here for anyone.
This site is not intended to be a place where the rules are so strict that people are banned from posting and posts are deleted.
I got fed up with Oak as there wasn't hardly any woodworking related info there anymore, just everything else.
I do like humor and jokes. I will be one of the first to jump in and put in my 2 cents and add my own humor, not to degrade, just to have a little fun.
Thats what this site is all about, to have fun and gather help when needed.
I will get off the sop box now.
Steve

[Tom Sweeney]

I posted my response, to this thread, late last night. In re-reading it I might have crossed over the line.

I stand by the opinions I expressed but I think I could have done it better. Not to mention it is extremely wordy. If I offended anyone I sincerely appologize.

This is a great forum & I'd hate to see this get out of hand - or anyone leave because of it.

I think there might still be some confusion as to what exactly is allowed & what isn't - I'm sure it will be cleared up by those in charge.

[Ron McNeil]

Originally posted by Tom Sweeney
I posted my response, to this thread, late last night. In re-reading it I might have crossed over the line.

I stand by the opinions I expressed but I think I could have done it better. Not to mention it is extremely wordy. If I offended anyone I sincerely appologize.

This is a great forum & I'd hate to see this get out of hand - or anyone leave because of it.

I think there might still be some confusion as to what exactly is allowed & what isn't - I'm sure it will be cleared up by those in charge.

Tom,

You might have posted late last night but I agreed with what you said. As far as there might be some confusion as to what is allowed and what isn't. I think there is always confusion about rules and regulations especially when the rules havn't been posted. It seems to me most of the fuss is over what Keith has said he doesn't want. It doesn't matter how the rules are made someone is going to complain. I do hope Keith prints the rules for all to see and then let people decide what they are going to do. I enjoy this forum very much and I'm learning a lot. However, Sawmill Creek cost me nothing except my time to open it and read. I hope no one leaves but after the rules are made and posted then if anyone doesn't like them then it's their choice. Keith, Aaron, Jackie and Ken thank you so much for your time and effort and keep up the good work.

[Steve Nelson]

Originally posted by Bill Grumbine
My thoughts exactly David. This isn't a public place, although it might have that appearance. It is whatever Keith wants it to be. No one is being forced to click on the link and come here.

My home isn't a democracy either. I make the rules, and they are my rules, like them or not. We welcome lots of people into our home from the the Pond, from here, and from many other internet fora. There are a few people who would not be welcome in my home, and if any of them would ever attempt it, he would be told (politely of course) to get lost. If he doesn't like it, too bad.

This is Keith's place, and if people don't like the way he is running it, too bad. If people really have a problem with this place there is another on the web where complainers, whiners, and bashers are more than welcome, they are encouraged.

A significant portion of my income is derived from people on these fora, but no one will see me advertising my services or linking to my sites. I will mention encounters in passing, and others often post regarding their experiences, but if someone wants to come see me, they have to find me, and the process is working just fine.

One more thing about links being posted. Sure, there is lots of good info out there, some of it on my personal site. The issue isn't whether or not a link is innocuous, it is whether or not someone is going to have to take the time to sort the good from the bad, or rather the legitimate from the nonlegitimate. That is time consuming, and no matter what the outcome, someone is always going to cry foul.

Maybe I'll be told about being so direct here but you know what? That is the right of the people who built and own this place.

Bill

[Dave Avery]

It REALLY bothers me, Mr. Grumbine, that you manage to say EXACTLY what I'm thinking much more eloquently than I ca. That said, WELL SAID! Dave.

[Randy Gleckler]

I PM'd with Keith about this yesterday. Did you all know there is a www link at the bottom that people can use to link to sites? I didn't...

Anyway, that being said, you guys should check out the other threads going on... were talking about woodworking, neat projects, great ideas, and getting along. :p


randy

[Bill Esposito]

I go through great pains to make sure that I enter information on my Web site that other people can benifit from. If you consider the satisfaction I derive from the occasional email thanking me for that information as profit, then I guess I'm guilty as charged! Hopefully my new tag line is acceptable.

It just seems like an unnecessary rule:confused:

[Paul Geer]

if I have this right, if you have a link to your own personal web site, commercial or not, it goes to the WWW button? Right?

[Ken Salisbury]

These are replies to questions in this thread. They are listed in reverse order as asked (last post first). I am doing this to keep from having to respond to the posts individually. I hope this helps everyone understand what was and is intended. If you have individual questions feel free to either e-mail me or send a private message.

Paul Geer:

"if I have this right, if you have a link to your own personal web site, commercial or not, it goes to the WWW button? Right?"

Correct Paul


Ron McNeil:

It doesn't matter how the rules are made someone is going to complain. I do hope Keith prints the rules for all to see and then let people decide what they are going to do.

The rules will eventually get posted when they are finally complied by Keith's crew. They have worked hard and diligently on other things. The rules section is being worked on and will be posted hopefully by Sunday night.



Bob Nazaro:

"I looked at the FAQ and didn't see anything about format. I don't have my own site and may occasionally reference a site where I obtained some information in a post. If this is wrong I am sorry, but for the new guys: ."

You can reference a site where the information in question can be obtained. You can link directly to your own site (either commercial or personal web site) in thr body of any message as long as the link is pertinent to the topic. Use the WWW button at the bottom of your post to post a permanent link to your web site, but do not link to your web site in your signature.

If you can you put the rules out there I will be glad to follow them

Same as the answer to Ron above, hopefully by Sunday night.

Tom Gattiker:

"What if my personal site has no commercial content? Can I include a link to content on my site in my posts"

Yes, but not in your signature.

"I have stuff on my site (including woodworking stuff) that you cannot link to from the main url (The url that on would get by clliking the www button on sawmill creek). "

Links to sub-pages of your site are acceptable in the body of messages when the link is on topic, do not use links in your signature.

Jerry Doan:

"I am unaware of any prohibition against including links to other informative websites in the body of the message though.

Your are correct -- no prohibition for those types of links

Paul Kunkel:

The rules should then be prominently posted or no one should be banned for a minor infraction.

Not one person has been banned from this forum yet. If there is a major problem you would be contacted via Private Message before any action would be taken or we would dicuss it over the phone.

Bob Janka:

"On the other hand, I understand the concerns and will not directly reference any web-pages I have which provide a personal gain. Any such references will hide in my user profile and I will direct people who are interested to go through the "WWW" button to access those pages.

Is this a fair and accurate statement of the intent expressed in this policy? If not, please help me understand how to be a good "creek citizen".

You are not allowed to conduct business at SawMill Creek. You may include links to any web page that has information that is pertinent to any message topic. You may not link to any online store or shopping cart. Let's don't be cute or cunning by using workarounds to bend the intent of any SMC rules. When this happens it is an insult to our members and the staff.

From Keith Outten - I have edited Kens post to try and clarify the links situation, I have also adjusted the links policy in an effort to compromise and make it easier for everyone to comply. When the final rules are posted I will try to be as specific as possible but I will not write a huge book in an effort to address every possible scenerio.

There are other issues that we have not discussed concerning our position on links and commercial content at SawMill Creek, specifically the cost of bandwidth and hardware. Our sponsor has allocated plenty of bandwidth and server capacity for this forum but it is not unlimited. If we are not conservative and careful with our resources the performance of this site could suffer. We can support thousands of woodworkers but we will not provide any free support for businesses who can and should fund their own advertising.

[robertfsmith]

I don't think the private messeges or emailing of a personal link is a very good idea. If I got PM's or emails with someone telling me about their site, I would consider that spam.

So if I'm following the rules, I could PM or email everyone registered here to see if they wanted to enter my contest, and that would be considered alright? I don't think so! I think you would be getting 100x more emails about the spam people are recieving.

I think the link in the sig line was toatlly acceptable, as long as it wasn't a giant font size in bright colors flashing "click here..." As far as the WWW button is concerned, it is easily overlooked. I liked being able to see if someone had a webpage without having to scan the boarders of the frames to see if someone has a WWW button. A simple title under their name was nice.

Just out of curiousity, are women allowed here or is this another one of the those Exculsive hard to be a member of country clubs? Do I have to start wearing a black tie when visiting the forum?

[Keith Outten]

I think that most of the people interested in this topic have read all the posts and probably understand the whens whats and whys concerning posting links to other sites. Sharing links to informative and even commercial web sites can be totally acceptable when it's done properly. When people post a direct link to a particular web page that has a comparison or review of a tool that can be valuable information. When we are discussing routers do we need to see someone's link to his/her web site for laser engraving. Use the WWW Button for these types of links, it does not put your web address in everyones face on every post you make. Don't use any web address in your signature.

I doubt that there is one person here that doesn't understand when someone is throwing their advertising in your face. Consider the spam problems with email and totally unwanted/unsolicited blasts we all receive which absolutely ruins the public email system. This type of problem will not be allowed to develope here at SawMill Creek, it wil destroy or render useless everything we all enjoy about this community.

[Bill Esposito]

Keith,

Now I'm confused. Example, in a post regarding scrapers I put a direct link to an article on a web site about scrapers....is that ok?

Second, I linked to a pic on my site which showed how shavings should look...was that ok?

Lastly, rather than have someone browse my site for something, I often post a direct link to the specific non-comercial information...is that ok? I'm guessing not but would it be ok to post that information like this: Here's how I modified my Bies Splitter. (http://cerealport.net/woodworking/biespliter.html) ????

Now this is really the last question. Reading your post I noticed you seemed concerned with web addresses "in your face" In my signature line it did not show my actual web address but instead it was My Woodworking Page and Pics (http://cerealport.net/woodworking) ????

Thanks

[Dr. Zack Jennings]

Hey Ken You Stated:

"You can reference a site where the information is question can be obtained. If you are referencing your own site (either commercial or personal web site) then you must reference the reader to use the WWW button at the bottom of your post (provided you have listed your web site URL in your User Profile/Options)"

The rule is against putting direct links to your personal website in the Tagline , the signature posted by the software. Direct Links to information on your personal web-site in the message body are still OK.<center>
Keith Stated:
"When we are discussing routers do we need to see someone's link to his/her web site for laser engraving. Use the WWW Button for these types of links, it does not put your web address in everyones face on every post you make. Don't use any web address in your signature."

[Terry Hatfield]

Well folks....guess I'm guilty also.

First I must say that I FULLY SUPPORT Keith's right to have ANY rule he sees fit for the site just as I supported Wayne's right to do so on the Pond.

Now with that being said, I do have one problem with the way this rule came down and this thread in general. Wayne's rules were posted and easy to understand...not necessarily good...but still posted for all to see and agree to or not post.

You guy's are enforcing rules that no one knows about. I understand that rules are in the works but why could rules enforcement not wait for the rules to be posted? Was there that much of a problem with web sites in the signatures???

Ken stated in an earlier response that the rules are not the highest priority...but it seems that rules enforcement is. I don't understand the difference.

This is in no way means that I don't like this site or that I will not post or participate here. I truly appreciate what Keith has done for us and this is my home and will continue to be my home. Ken has donated a tremendous amount of time to this also and I certainly appreciate his efforts also. I just feel like a bomb was dropped on us without any warning and rules that are not posted for all too see should not be being enforced. I understand that Keith posted this but I'm talking about a hard and fast rules sections being posted.

Thanks,

Terry

[John Lucas]

Well, I have spent 20 minutes reading ALL the posts and frankly I am confused. I often post a single page and/or picture from my website www.woodshopdemos.com (posted only for sake of clarity.) I create my website as one of being totally educational. I sell nothing from the site. With the Pond, I knew of Wayne's rules and respected them, even if the only mentions of my site was from obedient Ponders. I guess the same goes here, more or less. I will certainly continue to read the posts. Thanks all.

[David Rose]

[i]I will certainly continue to read the posts. Thanks all. [/B]

I hope this doesn't mean you won't post! I've learned a lot from your posts and your site. WWW the sucker!

David

[Dave Arbuckle]

I'm certainly baffled.

This quote from Zack Jennings: The rule is against putting direct links to your personal website in the Tagline , the signature posted by the software. Direct Links to information on your personal web-site in the message body are still OK.

That's kind of how it looked to me, too. I don't -have- a web site, but I do have a few disconnected web pages. Can't put them, collectively, in a "WWW" button.

Guess I'll kinda mill about until a normative set of rules are published. Sorry, no pun was intended.

Dave

[Keith Outten]

I think Ian MacDonald has the idea concernng links, it's very simple actually. Although Badger Pond was very strict concerning links in messages SMC has actually promoted the use of links. As long as they are pertinent to the subject.

Signatures should not contain links or references to web pages, vBulletin provides a button for this purpose.

-------------

Ian MacDonald

I think most reasonable people should be able to see the difference between including a link to your web site related to the topic of discussion versus a link to your website in every post you make by way of a tagline.

-- Ian

--------------

[Jerry P. Doan]

That's good to know, Keith. So people like Dave Arbuckle and John Lucas will be able to continue posting links to parts of their websites, which are not easily reachable from their main URL, as long as the sites are pertinent to the conversation. Just nothing in their tag lines. Got it. Thanks.

[Bob Janka]

Originally posted by Ken Salisbury

...

Bob Janka:

"On the other hand, I understand the concerns and will not directly reference any web-pages I have which provide a personal gain. Any such references will hide in my user profile and I will direct people who are interested to go through the "WWW" button to access those pages.

Is this a fair and accurate statement of the intent expressed in this policy? If not, please help me understand how to be a good "creek citizen".

Yes your statement is a fair and accurate one [/B]

Thanks for ALL of your help, Ken. You have contribued much to the great effort of Keith, Aaron & Jackie. All of you deserve LOTS of credit for a job well-done!

Now, let me run this scenario by you...

For those of us who have personal web-sites, we can always borrow a page from Ken's book. He has hosted several picture galleries as sub-sites hanging off his primary web-site.

What I plan to do is set up a <myhomepage>/SawMillCreek web-page at my web-site. This will be the WWW target in my user profile here at the Creek. As I share articles, photos, or other content with fellow waders here at the Creek, I will add some sub-links off that page. For instance, a pen-making how-to page would be one link, a gallery of my pens would be another link. In my postings, I would refer people to my WWW button and tell them which link to follow. Another link, less prominent than these, would point people to my e-commerce web-site.

For example,

==========

Title: Bob's SawMillCreek Web-Page (http:/<bob's homepage>/SawMillCreek/)

Link1: How to turn pens on a wood lathe

Link2: Gallery of pens turned by Bob

Link3: Gallery of photos at SawMillCreek Gathering

. . .

LinkN: Visit Bob's e-commerce web-site (this might point to the root page or another sub-page at my site).

==========

It sounds to me like this might be a viable way to share information, yet honor the policy of no self-referential links in the postings.

An alternate option, resources permitting, might be to allow storage of useful articles at some portion of the SawMillCreek web-site itself.

One final thought: Moderators such as Ken should not have to actively keep track of ALL postings to their forum. Instead, users should utilize the "report this post to the moderator" link. Moderators would have the discretion to act on the suspect post after receiving 2,3, or N reports on the post. Of course, if the moderator agrees with the first report, then that counts for 2. :-)

Thanks MUCH for letting us discuss this issue publicly!

Cheers,
Bob

[Dave Arbuckle]

Bob, in light of Keith's statement above, seems like a lot of work for nothing.

Unless I'm still off looking the wrong direction, it looks like if someone asks about blivets, and I point them to my page on blivet construction, there's no problem.

If I put a link to my blivet construction page in every post, then there's a problem.

Sounds simple and workable to me.

Dave