Buying rough cut lumber

[Charles Goodwin]

I'm new enough that I'm clueless as to the most efficient way to buy rough lumber. My local dealer is not long on customer service, so I'm coming here for help.

Here's a simplified cut list on a project I am making out of spanish cedar:

15 boards @ 4/4, 6 inches wide x 6 feet long (i.e., 15 six foot 1x6s)
20 boards @ 8/4, 4 inches wide x 6 feet long (i.e., 20 six foot 2x4s)

So how do I place that order in terms of board feet? The point where I get confused is that I need boards of a minimum length (6 feet), but lumber is sold in boards of varying length and on a per board foot price. So if the dealer has boards of 8 or 10 feet, I'll have significant waste - driving up my price and making any prior calculation by me of the total board feet I need wrong.

Can I specify no boards less than 6.5 feet or more than 7 feet? Should I give the dealer the actual cut list? Or do I just live with the overages?

Thanks,
Charles

[Shawn Christ]

I like to pick out my own boards for my projects. In doing so, I grab only those boards that meet the minimum widths and lengths needed for the job to help minimize waste. Let the employee calculate the board feet. In my opinion you can tell the dealer exactly what you want and he should try to accommodate you, assuming he wants your business. Anything less than 6 feet in length will obviously do you no good. I've noticed some hardwood suppliers sell "shorts" in the 6 to 7 foot range at a discount. Otherwise, if you have a means to haul something longer, you could ask for boards at least 12+ feet in length.

[Leo Graywacz]

If you are asking for specific boards then you are in retail land. When you are buying rough lumber usually you are buying wholesale and in such have less choice. When I am buying lumber I usually ad at least 30% to the order for such reasons you state. If you need 6' clean boards then you will likely want to get 13-14' lengths and you can cut the two 6' lengths out of them.

And with rough lumber if you want a 6" wide board you will want to order 7-8" wide as you can get some wane or curve in the board that will limit how wide of a straight pc of lumber you can get out of it.

Technically you have 45 BF of 4/4 and 80 BF of 8/4. If I was doing your order I would probably 70BF of 4/4 and 110 BF 8/4 I would order the 4/4 as 7-8 wide 13-14 long and the 8/4 5-6 wide 13-14 long.

It also depends on what the wholesaler inventory. They should be able to tell you what they have in stock and you will need to decide from there. Also have to remember that every board you get will likely have some sort of a small defect in it. You need to work around them and some boards will have to be put aside for another project as they may not be usable for this particular project.

[scott vroom]

Rough lumber is typically sold in varying lengths and widths. At the end of the day you need to work with your supplier to find out what's available. It may be possible to order minimum lengths and widths, possibly for an upcharge. If your supplier won't work with you on this then there are numerous on-line retailers that will.

What is your project?

[Howard Acheson]

You don't buy lumber by the "board foot". That's the way you are charged for the lumber you need. You also need to know about the nominal sizes of the wood you need. For example a 4/4 board x 6 x 8 feet with be actually 1" x 5 1/2 by 8 feet or more. So you will have to take 4/4 x 8" (actually 7 1/4") x 8 feet.

You should certainly discuss your needs with the lumber yard but he is going to sell you what he has. You may be charged for any cutting and you may end up with the scrap. Your lumberyard probably will not have 4" wide stock. You'll need to by 8" or more wide stock and rip it to 4" yourself.

Keep in mind that a lumberyard selling roughsawn lumber is used to dealing with folks who know how things work. If you can, it's best to see if you can choose the boards yourself. Bring your tape measure and a small plane so you can get a peek at the grain and figure in the boards. Be sure to get permission before you plane any boards. And be sure to re-stack any lumber stacks you mess up.

[Myk Rian]

I buy lumber as a pile and sort it as I need it.
For instance, this pile of cherry;
194615
Turned into this;
194614
With extra for other projects.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

The comment about nominal dimension is critical...not just because the boards you find in the stacks that are 4/4 x 6" x 8' may not actually be those exact dimensions...but by the time you take any warp, twist, bow/cup out of the board, get to S4S and then sticker overnight and inspect for movement you will likely loose 20-25%. So if you need 4/4 milled stock, then you need to buy 5/4 rough. Assuming you want clear boards with limited knots and defects then you will be buying FAS (firsts and seconds), which also means boards at least 6" wide and 8" long.

I don't know where you are geographically, all the rough lumber suppliers and small mills around Philly and NJ will assume you want to dig through their stacks to pick exactly what you want. If I were looking at your cut list here is how I might budget the rough lumber.

15 boards @ 4/4, 6 inches wide x 6 feet long (i.e., 15 six foot 1x6s) -- So, consider this 15ea x 5/4 x 7"w x 96-126"/144 = approximately between 88 bf and 115bf (based on getting no board shorter than 8' or longer than 10.5')
20 boards @ 8/4, 4 inches wide x 6 feet long (i.e., 20 six foot 2x4s) -- So, consider this 10ea x 10/4 x 9"w x 96-120"/144 = approximately between 150bf and 197 bf (based on same assumption as above, but also ripping 9" wide stock yourself to make two 4" wide boards)

For the total order your high estimate is approaching 400 board feet...enough that many dealers in the mid-atlantic would offer you a volume price, work with you to get dimensions that meet your needs and many would be willing to deliver to you for free. Its worth calling more than a few. Use woodfinder.com

BTW, what are you building? Time to get the jointer and planer knives sharpened eh?

[Mark Salomon]

First, I go to the lumber yard and find out what typical lengths that carry. It seems like most of the rough woods I buy tend to come in 10-12 footers with some 8 footers thrown in. Knowing this, I go back and draw boards on a sheet(s) of graph paper that are the size of the rough lumber that I'll be buying. Then, I lay out each roughly dimensioned part of my project on the graph paper trying to both recognize the likely waste of that type of wood as well as the waste from defects, etc. Once I have all of the parts of a project laid out I know how many boards that I'll need. I usually end up buying an extra board (if it's 4/4 or 6/4) to allow me to discard a bad piece or two and allow me to fine tune the grain selection. I don't bother trying to have the yard sell me short pieces unless it's 8/4 and I need only enough for some legs. In most cases the yard will only cut a long board if they can keep a minimum of, say, 6 feet.

[Carl Civitella]

The comment about nominal dimension is critical...not just because the boards you find in the stacks that are 4/4 x 6" x 8' may not actually be those exact dimensions...but by the time you take any warp, twist, bow/cup out of the board, get to S4S and then sticker overnight and inspect for movement you will likely loose 20-25%. So if you need 4/4 milled stock, then you need to buy 5/4 rough. Assuming you want clear boards with limited knots and defects then you will be buying FAS (firsts and seconds), which also means boards at least 6" wide and 8" long.

I don't know where you are geographically, all the rough lumber suppliers and small mills around Philly and NJ will assume you want to dig through their stacks to pick exactly what you want. If I were looking at your cut list here is how I might budget the rough lumber.

15 boards @ 4/4, 6 inches wide x 6 feet long (i.e., 15 six foot 1x6s) -- So, consider this 15ea x 5/4 x 7"w x 96-126"/144 = approximately between 88 bf and 115bf (based on getting no board shorter than 8' or longer than 10.5')
20 boards @ 8/4, 4 inches wide x 6 feet long (i.e., 20 six foot 2x4s) -- So, consider this 10ea x 10/4 x 9"w x 96-120"/144 = approximately between 150bf and 197 bf (based on same assumption as above, but also ripping 9" wide stock yourself to make two 4" wide boards)

For the total order your high estimate is approaching 400 board feet...enough that many dealers in the mid-atlantic would offer you a volume price, work with you to get dimensions that meet your needs and many would be willing to deliver to you for free. Its worth calling more than a few. Use woodfinder.com

BTW, what are you building? Time to get the jointer and planer knives sharpened eh?

If you want 4/4 to take down to 3/4 why on earth would buy 5/4 and so on. If it is that crooked or bowed, don`t buy it period. Good luck.... Carl

[Mark Carlson]

If you want 4/4 to take down to 3/4 why on earth would buy 5/4 and so on. If it is that crooked or bowed, don`t buy it period. Good luck.... Carl

He said if you need 4/4 milled buy 5/4 rough not if you need 3/4 milled buy 5/4 rough.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

He said if you need 4/4 milled buy 5/4 rough not if you need 3/4 milled buy 5/4 rough.

Yep, thanks Mark!

And Carl, the post was about buying rough lumber not S4S...making rough boards into flat, square and parallel stock is why they make jointers and planers.

[Mike Harrison]

Charles, do you have a jointer and planer or are you expecting the lumberyard to do that for you?

[Charles Goodwin]

Thanks for all the information. It sounds like the first step is to go to the lumber yard, ask to sort through the stock myself, and select the boards I need to fit my minimum lengths and widths (with some extra).

I'm in Oklahoma City. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be too many choices as far as local dealers. Perhaps I just haven't found the right place yet. The idea of buying online hadn't occurred to me -- I would have assumed shipping costs would overcome any convenience factor.

I have a combo jointer/planer, but am just getting to the point of expanding into larger projects, where I can really put it to use. My plan is to ask for S2S, with a straight line ripped edge. Let me know if you'd recommend a different approach.

The wood is for an outdoor kitchen area that will house a grill. I like the look of spanish cedar, but haven't worked with it. If it all turns out, I'll post pictures.

Thanks again- Charles

[Carl Civitella]

Matt, i have a jointer and planer and use them and buy nothing but rough cut lumber. I don`t buy S4S because by the time you use it it changes cups or bows. I guess i just misunderstood the answer. Sorry,disregard my answer. Carl

[Jerry Olexa]

Examine the stack yourself and pick out pieces you want...They should be fine with that...

[Mike OMelia]

Create a model of your project in sketchup (google) and use the free Cutlist pluggin to layout your cuts. Enter the length and width you most commonly expect to find. Find wood where the wood is S2S so that the width dimension is 6" (or whatever) exactly (or a bit over). This way you minimize waste. There are issues with this approach, but if you take it, I will explain more. Avoid buying at the Borg. Their wood quality (and variety) is low and everything is surfaced on all sides. Always pick your own wood.

Mike

[Ole Anderson]

My local mill will thickness the stock for about $10 for 6-7 boards while I wait (and help). I have them plane it a sixteenth over final, then I take it to final on my lunchbox planer (with a digital thickness gage). Saves me a lot of wear and tear on my blades, not to mention a lot of passes and bags full of planings. Well worth it. If I just need one board (not often) I will take it as-is. My mill is only 10 minutes distant, which helps.

I cut the boards to an inch over final length before running it thru the jointer to minimize the loss due to wane.

[Scott T Smith]

Lots of good advice offered thus far; I would suggest an alternative to using the cut list programs though.

If you're going to be painting or using a dark stain on your project, then a cutlist program can help you to reduce material costs.

However, for projects that involve any type of glue-up, I suggest that you purchase about 25% - 40% more lumber than the bare minimum required for the project, skip plane the lumber, and then study the grain patterns and color on each board. This allows you to determine your cut lines in a manner that offers the most pleasing transitions between boards that are glued up side by side, or based upon where the wood will be used in your piece, as opposed to what uses the least amount of wood.

This will not provide for the most optimum use of your lumber from a "quantity" perspective, but it provides for the optimum use of your lumber from a "quality" perspective and the end result will be a much higher degree of craftsmanship and artistry on your finished piece.

[Tony Bilello]

.....I would suggest an alternative to using the cut list programs though.

If you're going to be painting or using a dark stain on your project, then a cutlist program can help you to reduce material costs.

However, for projects that involve any type of glue-up, I suggest that you purchase about 25% - 40% more lumber than the bare minimum required for the project, skip plane the lumber, and then study the grain patterns and color on each board. This allows you to determine your cut lines in a manner that offers the most pleasing transitions between boards that are glued up side by side, or based upon where the wood will be used in your piece, as opposed to what uses the least amount of wood.

This will not provide for the most optimum use of your lumber from a "quantity" perspective, but it provides for the optimum use of your lumber from a "quality" perspective and the end result will be a much higher degree of craftsmanship and artistry on your finished piece.

Amen brother, Amen

[Joe Angrisani]

I'll add a third amen....

[Jim Matthews]

I have received excellent guidance from the guys that run the woodlots.
I come in with a drawing, with a guesstimate for the amount of wood required.

I'm a hack, so I estimate 100% waste on anything I build for the first time. Some extra stock is certainly good to have on hand, rather than stopping to go shopping.

If the lot is busy, I find one of the guys that is willing and slip in a little "coffee money" for their assistance. This has been one of my few investments to pay dividends.

[Mike Harrison]

I agree with the guys about grain and color matching, it makes a big difference when you're done.

The project starts at the sawyer or lumber yard, I select my own stock, FAS only, no wind, cup, bow or other anomalies. Why pay good money just to make more work for yourself? I match color as close as possible, and get about 30% more than I need. What ever material is left at the end of the project is that much less I'll need next time. If you go through the stack yourself, BE SURE you re-stack whats left as neatly, or better than you found it. They remember that stuff.

I do all the milling myself because every thing THEY do is more money out of my pocket. If you're not satisfied with what they do, then you have just wasted both time and money. Since you have the tools I don't understand why you wouldn't want to do it all yourself. None of it is difficult.

[Troy Turner]

Charles -

If you buy online, call them and tell them what you are trying to do and need the specific lengths. Example, I'm making a desktop and the boards need to be at least 6' long. The place I'm buying from charges an extra $.50 a board for them to look through the pile...but I have no choice as I can't look through it myself and I don't have a lumber yard around here. Most projects, yeah, you can buy a bundle of board feet and rumage for what you need, but in this case, I have to pay the extra to get the lengths I need. Also, for an extra $.50 a brd they'll also put a straight edge on it to make it easier to rip down. Course, if you have a jig for that, no need in spending the extra.

Keep in mind though, there may be a minimum order from some online lumber places.

Good luck!

[Danny Hamsley]

I cut rough lumber on my sawmill, and I mill that wood and make projects. I have found that each board can be an individual, that is, every 6" board that is #1 common grade is not equal. You can sketch up the board sizes you need then determine where the pieces you need will come from in each board, but remember that a strategically placed knot that you want to eliminate in a cut piece can change the entire way that you will cut up the board. What I am saying is try not to be too precise in your expectations, and as been advised, buy about 25% more BF to allow you the flexibility in getting just what you need with good quality. You can always use any extra on another project.