Is Rob Cosman dovetail seminar worth the cost?

[Chris Atzinger]

Hi,

I am struggling a bit to make sound, good looking handcut dovetails. I have actually challenged my self to make a dovetail-a-day. Unfortunately my day 3 dovetails aren't that much different from my day 18 dovetails!

My local woodcraft is hosting Rob Cosman in June, and there is a 4hr seminar that has some open spots. I was told that this really isn't a hands-on type of session, but mostly Rob teaching and taking questions. The cost is $75.

Has anyone done this before? Was it helpful? Is there somewhere else I should be looking for some tutelage?

Thanks!
Chris

[Mike Henderson]

Making a good dovetail is mostly a matter of practice once you understand the process. You can buy Rob's DVD and get sufficient instruction to get started. If you're having problems, the best thing would be to work with someone more experienced who can look at what you're doing and offer suggestions.

If I was in your situation, I'd look for some hands-on instruction. It doesn't have to be Rob Cosman - many people can do good dovetails, and could provide you the help you need.

Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I expect that sitting and watching would not help significantly more than watching the video except that you can perhaps see the fine details of what is done. As an example, does he split the line or run directly against the line while cutting.

My limited experience is cutting dovetails for one drawer out of hard maple. The fit is rock solid but it looks nothing like those pretty dovetails that I admire by others.

How is your sawing? The one thing that I did do is to practice my cutting. My cutting is not great, but it is at least ok. I do believe that for those perfect dovetails, you must be able to to do a few things (with which I struggle):



Cut a straight line. I found that while cutting the tails I sometimes do not cut a perfectly flat as is seen by placing a straight edge along it.
Cut perpendicular to the face of the board. If it is not straight, you probably need the wider end to be towards the inside of the joint so that it will snug up as you the joint is pushed together.
I cut the tails first and then I cut the pins, so, I must be able to hold the items securely and mark along the joint. When I did this, I noticed that some of my tails are not perfectly straight (because I see a slightly curved line). That is a good indicator that I need more practice in step (1) and that there will be fitting problems. Perhaps I should check this before marking.
Now the item with which i struggled the most; Where exactly must I cut for a good tight fit? I rarely see anyone show a really tight image of the cut with the line showing or not when the joint is cut, so, I must guess. I admit that much depends on how well you get close while marking. If you were at the class, you might be able to peek at how this looks.


I considered practice dovetails, and I decided that if I did this, then I would have only two tails so that I could more accurately and quickly judge how things fit based on what I cut. I found it difficult to determine which set was off I cut eight tails on my drawer.

The people that I know that met Rob Cosman were all impressed with him on many fronts. Given the opportunity, I would likely attend, but, if I were able to find someone that would hand cut dovetails with me and correct me as I go and perhaps show me how they do it one on one, I would do that instead.

[David Keller NC]

Chris - From the standpoint of "worth it", it depends on how you think about it. If you're really having trouble with something, nothing beats a person to talk to that has conquered the difficulties. One can't ask questions (and expect an answer) from a book or a video.

4 hours of instruction for $75 is very little money, unless the class size is 75 people - but I doubt that at a local Woodcraft store.

Whether $75 is worth it to you might depend a bit on your income & expenses. To many, $75 isn't all that much money. To a graduate student, it might be....

[Sean Hughto]

If your 18th are not much better than your 3rd, I think you may be making some fundamental mistake. You may be setting up you sawing such that your body is out of position. You may be failing to make careful enough marks. Something fundamental is wrong. The question is to find out what. A DVD - some pictures and posts here - a class - a friend nearby -a club nearby. Once you figure out the major error, you'll start to see improvement.

[Andrew Gibson]

If you make your way down to florida, you can hang out in my shop all day and we can cut joints out of wood in my scrap bin till your hearts content.
I don't claim to be the best at dovetails but I am confident in my abilities to make tight fitting and strong joints.

[Brian Kent]

A $75 workshop sounds like a very fair price. Not the only way to learn, but a good way.

[Mike Siemsen]

Chris,
If it is not a hands on workshop where the instructor can see what you are doing wrong it probably won't be much help. Most of the people I teach dovetailing to have to be taught how to saw, and how to sharpen and use a chisel. There are several different videos on youtube that you could watch. You are Cincinatti, while it is a bit more money for a hands on workshop I would think Kelly Mehler's School would be a good option. If you can wait until October come to WIA in Covington, KY, I will help you myself. I run the Handtool Olympics and dovetailing is one of the events. We always give tutorials to any one that wants one. We are in the Marketplace so it costs about $5 to get in. Rob Cosman was there last year and I wouldn't be surprised if he is there again this year cutting dovetails and selling plane irons and such. Chuck Bender is doing a workshop on cutting dovetails if you plan on attending the conference. He would also probably help you at his booth.
Mike Siemsen

[Mike Henderson]

4 hours of instruction for $75 is very little money, unless the class size is 75 people - but I doubt that at a local Woodcraft store.

Check on the number of people in the class. Rob Cosman would have to get a decent fee for offering the class, especially since he's not local. Unless the store is subsidizing the cost there'd have to be a fair number of people in the class to make it worth Rob's while.

Mike

[Chris Atzinger]

Thanks for the replies.

Andrew, I am in Cincy, so trip to Florida to practice dovetails might be a hard sell at home, but I genuinely appreciate the offer.

Mike, I went to the vendor show at WIA last year and will definitely go back this year. I have toyed with the idea of taking classes there. The idea is sounding better everyday.

I have pasted a link to some pics of the first dozen or so joints that I cut by hand. The improvement from #1 to-#4 is dramatic (considering the first set would never go together), to give you an idea of where I am.

https://picasaweb.google.com/catzinger/5132011?authkey=Gv1sRgCKSG6rrzodqnYw&feat=directlink

I would agree that I am making a fundamental mistake, consistently. I also agree that I definitely need more sawing practice. I'll keep plugging away until I run out of wood!

Thanks for the suggestions!

-Chris

[Jim Koepke]

My experience with dovetails is nothing to shout about.

Most of my learning has been on my own and reading everything I can find on the subject and watching videos on Youtube.

The most important thing in my experience is learning to saw square to the stock and keeping to the line.

My biggest mistake was thinking that not sawing to the line could be corrected on the second board. In theory, it can be corrected. In reality, if one can not saw straight on the first piece, how will it get any better on the second piece?

Notice there isn't anyone saying it works best if you do pins first or tails first. The only person for whom that makes a difference is the one cutting the joint.

One of my biggest mistakes may be working in pine or fir all the time. Just because it is a soft wood doesn't make it easy to work.

One of my recent changes was to saw from the outside faces toward the inside faces of the work. This tends to hide the chip out look where the saw exits. Outside faces are the faces that will show when the joint is assembled.

Another big moment in learning was when the light went on over my head about the chisel movement when chopping out the waste caused a loose look at the bottom edges of the joint. Many prefer to use a coping or fret saw to cut the waste down before paring the bottom of the joint. For me it is just as easy to chop it out. I now am very careful with the first bit of chopping and waste removal. The outside edge's bottom line is established first.

Then back to the most important issue, in my experience, the sawing.

Being able to saw straight and square, leaving a smooth cut, is in my opinion the most important part of making dovetails work.

Sloppy layout can lead to sloppy sawing.

Starting with stock that is square and flat is also important. This is another difficult part of working with big box fir. If it is flat today, it will likely change by tomorrow. Especially in places like here in the humidity rich Pacific Northwest.

I have practice dovetails laying around until they get used to heat the house. I try to look at each one and see what mistakes were made and how to correct those mistakes. They get dates and numbers if more are done the same day. There are circles and arrows to point to the errors.

Over time, my skills have become better. Especially the skills of saw and chisel sharpening.

One other thing I have learned about cutting dovetails is to cut the ones that show the most last. When first starting to cut dovetails, I noticed on drawers that the last dovetails cut always looked better than the first ones cut.

jtk

[Greg Portland]

If it is not a hands on workshop where the instructor can see what you are doing wrong it probably won't be much help.+1000. I had watched all the videos and tried the different methods but 5 minutes with someone who knew what they were doing improved my DTs significantly.

[john brenton]

If it weren't for all the videos on the internet I'd say that even going to watch him would be worth it. But with all the vids on youtube and elsewhere I doubt it'd be worth the money. But, it could be worth it just to meet other wwers and hang out.

[Jim Koepke]

After looking at your pictures my first question is about your saw. My suggestion would be to mark lines on the end of a piece of wood square across and down and then cut them to make sure the saw is tracking properly. if it is, good. If not, then one has to determine if it is the saw or the hand guiding the saw. Go slow and watch to make sure the saw is staying in the same plane forward and back. Just like typing, work for accuracy and the speed will come with time.

My second suggestion is to make you bottom line a bit further from the edge. This is what people mean when they say make them proud. The depth of your cuts should be just a bit deeper than the thickness of the stock used. When carefully planed down, this can make the joint look better.

It also looks like you may be having trouble deciding on which side of the line to saw. Always saw on the waste side if you are not splitting the line. A little waste can be removed easier than putting back a hair of stock.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Just one more note. Looking at another post brought up this web site. I think I have seen it or another like it in the past, but it is a treasure trove of information.

http://www.amgron.clara.net/

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I would agree that I am making a fundamental mistake, consistently. I also agree that I definitely need more sawing practice. I'll keep plugging away until I run out of wood!...

While I appreciate your persistance, plugging away doesn't always help, one tends to keep making the same mistake. It may help a lot if you have a video camera of some sort and a way to aim it at yourself while you saw.

Based on scanning a couple of your photos, I'd suggest the following:

1) Make sure that the ends you're dovetails are absolutely square, 90° cut

2) Be careful with marking the baseline: set your marking gauge to the board thickness (I assume both boards are the same thickness), then mark both boards, careful that the gauge is holding the setting. Saw precisely to that baseline.

3) Just for kicks and to help get you out of a rut, saw the first board without any markings but the baseline. It's very easy for humans to bifurcate distances, so do that starting in the board's middle and work out. Then mark the second board based on the first and saw that.

4) If you haven't discovered the problem by now, try putting the boards in a vise at 6° off vertical, so you'll saw straight down for the angle cut. Do one side of each tail/pin, then offset the board to the vise in the other direction and saw the other side of each tail/pin.

Pam

[Jerome Hanby]

I can't say from first hand experience, but that seems like too good a chance to miss. If you pick up one little trick or get a better understanding of one little detail, then $75 is cheap. And Having Rob is a darn sight more of a sure thing than having Wood Craft employee John Smith as instructor.

[Jim Koepke]

4) If you haven't discovered the problem by now, try putting the boards in a vise at 6° off vertical, so you'll saw straight down for the angle cut. Do one side of each tail/pin, then offset the board to the vise in the other direction and saw the other side of each tail/pin.

As a comment on this, it is also easier when sawing without a tilt to saw all of one side and then the other of the tails and pins.

Much better than trying to change the angle with each cut.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Chris-
I looked at your pix. I am no expert, but am learning as are you. First, it appears that you are indeed improving - just not fast enough for your own liking.

I think you might make a lot of progress right here on the 'Creek, by simply posting pix of a single attempt: after marking the tails, after cutting the tails, after cleaning the sockets, after marking the pins, after cutting the pins, after cleaning the sockets.

To my eye, it appears that you are having trouble cutting the pins properly; you appear to be cutting fairly straight - just a little wide. I think the problem may be the marking of the pins. What are you using to transfer the marks? A pencil?

Try starting with smaller, wider spaced tails, too. I know small pins look nicer, but having more space eases the ability to accurately xfer the marks to the pin board.

A last trick is to cut a 1/32" rabbet on the inside of the tail board down to the base line. It greatly eases the registering and marking of the pin board.

[john brenton]

My revalation in cutting dovetails was seeing the layout as ONE line, not two. Instead of seeing it as one straight line on the end grain, and a skewed line down to the scribe line, if you change the way you're looking at the lines they become one straight line. One line, one straight saw cut.

[Jim Koepke]

My revalation in cutting dovetails was seeing the layout as ONE line, not two. Instead of seeing it as one straight line on the end grain, and a skewed line down to the scribe line, if you change the way you're looking at the lines they become one straight line. One line, one straight saw cut.

There is one of those little gems of information right here.

That will likely lead to the next improvement in my dovetailing ability.

Thanks John.

jtk

[Mitchell Garnett]

<Is the seminar worth the cost?>

I took the seminar as a prelude to the "dovetail degree" when both were offered in Seattle earlier this year. I'd previously never cut a dovetail by hand. The total package was worth it to me but it is hard for me to single out just the seminar for an honest opinion. Thinking about the seminar: being able to watch Rob work and to ask him questions is a definite plus over the video. But with the video, you can watch it over and over. And the shop copy workbook has close up photos and details that are helpful. If you go for the video, look for the 2.0 version just out.

I didn't answer your question but maybe I gave you some other points to consider.

BTW, Rob is a pleasure to meet and have as a teacher.

[john brenton]

Cool Jim. I was thinking about doing a tutorial on that, showing the difference in perspective to show that its really just a straight line, but I never got around to it....and as you of all people should know, a lot of well thought out tutorials get lost in the sea of "which X should I get" stuff.

I've looked at dovetail tutorials specifically looking for that straight line explanation but never see it...or at least in a way that seems straight forward.

You may feel like you need to contort your body to cut the way you're seeing it, but the body works it out. If your dt's are good now, I bet they'll be perfect after you apply a new perspective. I haven't made a bad dovetail since.


There is one of those little gems of information right here.

That will likely lead to the next improvement in my dovetailing ability.

Thanks John.

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I saw a video where Chris Schwarz (I believe) aligned the saw blade by viewing the reflection of the board on the blade itself.

The angle of incidence being equal to the angle of reflection, this resulted in a cut perpendicular to the board's edge. It was so obvious, but had escaped me entirely.

The pictures in Bob Lang's article attached show this, with some clarity.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/you-can-really-do-that

This does not help in cutting your angle, either for the pins (where I compound errors) or the tails, where either the board or saw must be tilted. (I tilt the board.)

I try to mark the pins off the tails, as the tails are easier to layout.

A really solid, small square helps with this. I mark with a knife, and sharpen the line
with a pencil afterwards. The knife mark also helps me start the saw.

If your pin cuts are deviating as you move down through the board, you may be swinging your arm through an arc, rather than traveling in a straight line.

Despair not.

Rob's class might be fun, but I would want more time to practice.

CVWWS has a full week with Mario Rodriguez, July 18-22nd. Section 071811A
I would take that class, over a 4 hour seminar, even with the tuition and housing cost.

[Jim Koepke]

I was thinking about doing a tutorial on that, showing the difference in perspective to show that its really just a straight line, but I never got around to it....and as you of all people should know, a lot of well thought out tutorials get lost in the sea of "which X should I get" stuff.


This is why I read everything I can find on the subject. So often it is just different words saying the same thing. But then there are times when something is said in a different way and soaks in or there is something that is another little piece of the puzzle.

Like the last line in the article Jim Matthews linked:


Frank Klausz once said, “if you’re learning to cut dovetails, and you can’t stay on the line you shouldn’t be practicing dovetails. You should be practicing sawing to a line.”

I think I will try marking and sawing to lines tonight.

jtk

[gary Zimmel]

Hi Chris.
I have had the pleasure to of been taught how to cut dovetails by Rob a few years ago, as a bunch of our fellow Creekers have.
When I went to my first course, put on by Rob, I had never even attempted to do a dovetail by hand.
In my opinion he is an excellent teacher and came away being able to to do what I would call a very acceptable handcut dovetail.
Mine really haven't got any better since then but I can do them faster now with out sacrificing quality.
Over the past few years I have helped at a few of Rob's courses and still learn more from him "just watching". I always pick up a few more tid bits of information.
And as a bonus met more than a couple of our neander creekers...
A hands on class would be my first pick. But if you have the opportunity to see someone like Rob in person and watch and ask questions, you will gain a lot.
Just my 2 cents.....

[Larry Frank]

I took the course from Rob awhile ago and it was well worth it for me. I went home with a hand cut dovetail that I had made and it did not look too bad. I learned a lot from the class. I also learned that having good sharp tools is absolutely necessary and you must be able to sharpen them to cut dovetails.

Given the chance, I would gladly pay and take a class from Rob again.

[george wilson]

I deleted my post because I thought it came across as condescending,though I didn't intend that. I have had to teach myself nearly everything. I grew up in the most isolated, or non cultured areas. Three light houses,then Alaska,where I first began to try to make guitars at 13. It has been a lot uphill,and I got no encouragement from my parents,either.

My biggest source of help was not in making things,but in refining my sense of design and taste. This was in college,from William Reimann,a foremost sculptor and artist,and not even really one of my teachers except by great fortune. Our Industrial Arts teacher got mad and quit. Mr. Reimann was asked to stand in for the rest of the year till a new teacher could be had. I was already pretty well along as a craftsman by then,but he straightened me out on design some,and generally got me on the right track.

I had never cut dovetails when I first got to Williamsburg. As a dedicated guitar maker,I just didn't have the occasion to do it that I can recall. I simply learned to cut them myself. You have to be able to saw squarely across the width of the wood,and be able to accurately stay on a line. If you can do this,the rest falls easily in place.

I hope this does not offend anyone.

[David Keller NC]

Chris - A few observations based on your photos:

1) What Pam said - the ends of your boards must be absolutely square to the faces/edges of your boards. Anything else, and you're already starting off with a misalignment. Most of us plane the end grain of our work pieces on a shooting board. There are 2 reasons for this - one is to make sure they're 90 degrees. The second is that it makes knife cuts that mark the lines much more visible.

2) Examine your tools. You don't need really expensive tools, but you do need reasonable quality ones that are tuned to do the job. Specifically, that starts with your marking equipment - you absolutely require a highly accurate small square. The plastic kind from Home Despot won't cut it.

You also require a marking knife. Preferably, this should be a very sharp, one-bevel knife. It's possible to do it with a double-bevel xacto, but it's more difficult, which adds to your learning curve.

You need a bevel gage, or a dovetail template. Eventually, you will be able to do dovetails without this, because you can eyeball the angles and cut straight. But when you're a beginner, you have to have it, because you're trying to analyze whether you cut the line straight. If you don't have a line that's straight to begin with, you can't analyze the saw cut.

You need a decent dovetail saw. Again, the saws they sell in Home Despot won't do the deed. They can be made to work, but that typically requires taking out the extreme set of these saws and re-profiling the teeth into a rip cut, not a cross-cut. This is not a job for a beginner. There are many decent dovetail saws, but the hands-down least expensive western saw that's actually a saw instead of a saw-shaped object is the Lee Valley new-age dovetail saw. If you prefer the traditional look, the Lie-Nielsens are the second cheapest that are very effective. If you don't want to spend that kind of money, post a note in the SMC classifieds asking for an antique dovetail saw sharpened by someone that knows what they're doing (do not accept a "well, it cuts well for me" - you will wind up with 2 or 3 losers that you will then need to send out to someone that knows what they're doing).

You must either have a very sharp dovetail bevel chisel (harder) or a fretsaw and a very sharp dovetail saw (easier). The fretsaw is the exception - it can be a reasonably cheap Olson with a coarse blade (about $15).

3) Choose your woods carefully. Oak, maple and walnut are all abyssymal choices for beginning dovetail work. The are too hard, too dark, or too coarse. You need a reasonably soft wood that will take knife cuts well, and will not fight you on the saw strokes. I choose eastern white pine when I teach someone to do this for the first time. It works wonderfully, is cheap, generally has well-behaved grain, and is relatively easy to chop. It has one failing that is actually an advantage to a beginner - it crushes easily. That property teaches someone why you can't just put the chisel in the knifed baseline and whack away - it must be "sneaked up on". If you can't get EWP, then poplar, butternut, aspen, basswood and (less so) south american mahogany are all good 2nd choices.

4) This is extremely important - you must be able to see what you're doing. And I don't mean just generally see your workbench and where the saw handle is. It's absolutely critical that you have a supernova's amount of light on the workpiece, and that your eyes be good enough to see the lines well enough to distinguish the left and right sides of the knife cut. For most of us over the age of 35, that means reading glasses.

I teach beginners in either full sunlight, or preferably with 2 or 3 of those inexpensive, clamp-on aluminum reflectors that you can buy for $6 at Home Despot, with 150 watt spiral fluorescent bulbs. It may sound like overkill, but it isn't.

5) Your body stance is important - your wrist, forearm, upper arm, dominant eye and dominant side of your body should all be in the single plane of the saw stroke.

6) The start of your saw kerf is critically important - if it isn't exactly positioned so that it will obliterate one side of the knifed line (the waste side) and leaves the other sidewall of the knifed line, you're pretty much hosed on the joint fitting together from the saw. No amount of correction during the sawing of the tail or pin will correct for this. In fact, trying to correct the course of the saw when sawing down to the baseline guarantees that your joint won't go together. You will eventually develop a feel for this - you want to control the cut so that the saw balances from left to right on the point of the teeth, and the side of the saw doesn't put any pressure on either sidewall of the kerf. If the saw binds, it means that you've let the saw lean one way or another for a couple of strokes, then corrected it - so the kerf is now a bit jagged and isn't straight.

7) Your grip is equally important to your body stance - most beginners want to strangle the saw handle, which creates torsion forces that take them off of their line. I've heard it said that you want to grip the saw like a bird - not os tight as to crush it, but not so loose that if flies away. In my experience, this is good advice.

8) Don't attempt to pare the sides of your tails or pins to get the joint to go together. David Charlesworth may be the only person alive on this planet that can do that sort of paring accurately enough to get a result that's pristine. For the rest of us, paring the sides of the tails or pins is pretty much a garantee for an ugly joint.

Remember that the air-tight joints straight from the saw that you see in dovetail videos is also completely unnecessary - you don't typically see that on furniture from the age of handwork - you see neat, decently fitting but not-quite-perfect dovetails.

If all of this sounds ridiculously anal, it is. But it absolutely is not out of reach of the average woodworker - it just takes analysis and critical thinking of what result you're getting from marking your lines, sawing the kerfs, and chopping out the waste, and then making adjustments to your technique, workspace or tools to get each of those operations up to your expectations.

Hope this helps - keep sawing, you'll get there.

[Jim Koepke]

I hope this does not offend anyone.

If it does, it is likely because they had sour grapes for dinner.

Even though my woodworking started much later in life, my good fortune was to find a lot of information through the internet and books. Much of this was not available more than 20 or 30 years ago. The internet seems to grow daily.

I have not reached any great heights, but I am enjoying the journey.

jtk

[george wilson]

With all the wealth of information available now about dovetailing,and nearly every issue of the woodworking magazines having another article on it,new woodworkers today are most fortunate to have these resources so easily at hand. In 1970,you had only the option of getting a book out of a library to at least study proportions,angles,etc. of dovetails.

When I began to make harpsichord cases was when dovetailing became necessary to me,except that guitars and mandolins have a large single dovetail to hold their necks on,along with glue. Today,some makers simply glue them flat onto the guitar's sides. I would never do this myself,but some do. One sharp whack,and such a neck could pop right off,ripping the fingerboard as it went.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Chris

I can see a few errors that you are likely to be making. The most important of these is that you are not sawing to the line, and not on the the correct side of the line. Are you marking the waste before sawing?

Have a look through this article of mine. It provides tips on "making better dovetails": http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MakingBetter%20Dovetails.html

Hopefully that will cause a lightbulb to come on. If not, I think $75 on Rob Cosman would be money well spent. I would love to attend one of his tutorials!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Couldn't a person see that by observation when he tried to fit the joints together?

I have always taught that learning to be very careful in observing is one of the most important skills to acquire.

[Derek Cohen]

Pretty obvious to you and I, George, but not necessarily to a novice. I recall from the early days being afraid to saw too close to the line. My sawing was not confident. I tried to correct my sawing with chisels, and this made it worse - that is what it looks like here, hence the lines wandering. The simple factor is that a dovetail is just a butt joint, and this means that joining pieces must be complimentary (square makes this easier), plus the individual joints (on each edge) must compensate for saw kerfs width in the total length of the joints. After that it is easy :) :) :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Atzinger]

Hi George,

No offense taken. I learned to make things by working on rental property with my grandfather. I was pretty lucky that way. Coincidentally, it was in making my first guitar that I got really interested in hand tools. I now view cutting dovetails as a sort of "rite of passage" for hand tool work.

-Chris

[Tom Henderson2]

I took that seminar last year. It was.... fair.

Essentially it is Rob doing a narrated demo. You have some opportunity to ask questions, which is good. But due to the classroom nature you won't get a close-up view.

Rob's video and workbook combo are excellent. If you have those already you have seen most of what will be demonstrated in the class. So the big benefit is the ability to ask questions, which has value but it isn't the same as having hands-on training with an instructor watching you work and providing pointers.

Rob does a great job, is very entertaining and an excellent teacher. But a narrated demo is not substitute for hands-on instruction.

-TH

[Chris Atzinger]

Hi David,

Your post is almost an article by itself! Very helpful and concise. Here are my comments:
1. I have been using scrap wood, poplar for the first sets and maple for the last few. The maple had a slight twist to it, which i am sure contributed to some of the misalignment.

2. I think my tools are OK. I am using a VERY OLD dovetail saw that I had tuned up and sharpened for a rip cut last month. I got nice Ashley Isles chisels as a gift. They are sharp and ready to go! I lay them out with dividers, and started marking the tails with a bevel gauge, but recently made dovetail marker from some 3/8 scrap with 1:6 and 1:8 angles. I use a small 3" machinists square for everything else. I cut out most of the waste with a coping saw. I usually use the line left by the marking gauge to register the chisel and trim from there. Sounds like that may not be the right approach. I need to sneak up to that line.

3. I think I'll stick to some softer poplar for a bit.

4. I could definitely use some added light. I have a few of those reflectors on the shelf. Time to use them.

5. working on my position....

6. I have been practicing starting the kerf. I take most of the weight of the saw to get it started and "pinch" the edge of the board with my other hand to use my finger tips as a guide. I need to be better at that.

7. I think I have the right grip, i don't think my arm position is the best, though.

8. Paring the sides always makes it look worse, as the cut often gets away from me!

Thanks for you comments!
-Chris

[george wilson]

Actually,learning to be very observant is the very best advice I can give to any one. The whole future of a person's success depends upon learning to do this. these wood joints are not so complicated that a person cannot learn if they are going to fit properly,or be too loose,or an interference fit by simply observing how they go together. It also has the most influence when you try to learn the "rules" of doing good design of inlay and carving. Observe great works,and having made careful studies of them,design your own work based upon your observations. Even if you learn good classical designs,and do something more modern,like an Art Deco design,the lessons you learned by close,retained observation will contribute.

[Johnny Kleso]

What all of these instead...
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+cut+dovetail+joints+by +hand&aq=2&oq=how+to+cut+dovetail

[David Keller NC]

Hi David,

Your post is almost an article by itself! Very helpful and concise. Here are my comments:-Chris

No problem, I had some time last night to post, and it's the reason I joined the forum - like George, I wound up mostly self-taught, though I'm a bit younger so I had a few more books as resources, though no internet and few magazines. I remember that as a bad thing - way too much trying to figure it out on my own, so I figure if I can pay it forward a bit, it's a good use of my time. A few more comments based on the information you provided:


1. I have been using scrap wood, poplar for the first sets and maple for the last few. The maple had a slight twist to it, which i am sure contributed to some of the misalignment. Yeah, not good. Many folks have the instinct to use stuff destined for the woodstove for dt practice, but I don't recommend it. One way I've put it to someone that I was helping in person that was reluctant to buy a $30 board of mahogany and another $15 board of white pine to pair with it (we were working on half-blinds, and the combination of harder/softer makes the joint go together much more cleanly) was that even if we used it all (unlikely), was it worth it to spend $45 to make the learning process much easier, particularly after spending several hundred dollars on tools?


2. I think my tools are OK. I am using a VERY OLD dovetail saw that I had tuned up and sharpened for a rip cut last month. I got nice Ashley Isles chisels as a gift. They are sharp and ready to go! I lay them out with dividers, and started marking the tails with a bevel gauge, but recently made dovetail marker from some 3/8 scrap with 1:6 and 1:8 angles. I use a small 3" machinists square for everything else. I cut out most of the waste with a coping saw. I usually use the line left by the marking gauge to register the chisel and trim from there. Sounds like that may not be the right approach. I need to sneak up to that line.

Yep, no doubt about it - you might try knifing a line across the grain of the board, setting the chisel into the line, and giving it a few hard whacks. Then take the wood out of the vise and carefully compare where you've chopped to the portion of the line that hasn't been chopped with a magnifying glass. Everything about your tools sounds A-OK except that you don't say what sort of marking knife you use. If it's a double-bevel, I'd suggest getting a cheap xacto and grinding the blade back to give you one bevel and try that. Double bevel knives can be used, but you have to set the knife onto the wood so that the bevel next to the square is 90 degrees to the wood. That isn't easy, even for a more experienced user. Finally, I'll simply note that I've never seen any chisel, including $300 Japanese ones, that were so sharp out of the box that they didn't need at least touching up. A-I has quite a reputation for carving tools, and I would expect that to extend to their bench chisels. But I would still think they'll need a little touch-up. If so, you might want to try a strop - they're easy to make, cheap, and will bring a good-geometry grind to well beyond razor sharp in a few strokes.

And - buy a magnifying glass if you don't have one, and consider spending $8 in the grocery on +1.25 reading glasses. Even if your eyes are fine, the extra magnification makes analyzing you cuts far easier.

Regarding the saw, if it really is around 100 years old or older, then you've likely a fine tool. 50 years old might not be so good. But check the set on the saw - this is the usual defect, and causes the most trouble for beginners. You should be able to run your finger down the toothed edge of the saw and -barely- feel the teeth sticking up from the plane of the sawplate. Any more, and you've got an issue. Another way to check this is to saw down the grain on the end of the board about 1/2 - 1 inch. With the teeth resting in the bottom of the kerf, you should have no more than a few 32nds of side-to-side freedom of motion of the spine of the saw. Ideally, it should be less than that.


3. I think I'll stick to some softer poplar for a bit.

4. I could definitely use some added light. I have a few of those reflectors on the shelf. Time to use them.

5. working on my position....

No comments here, sounds like you're on the right track


6. I have been practicing starting the kerf. I take most of the weight of the saw to get it started and "pinch" the edge of the board with my other hand to use my finger tips as a guide. I need to be better at that.

Here's an alternative that should have you dead on the line by this afternoon - consciously push the end of your fingertips of your "off" hand lightly into the sawplate, and exert a -slight- sideways force with your sawing hand in the opposite direction against them. Using just the saw's weight, lightly push forward across the entire width of the end of the board. Then stop, get your magnifying glass and look at the result. This feedback should let you make small adjustments to get exactly on the waste side of the knife line. Once you've established the kerf with perhaps one or two more very light strokes, remove your off hand - you definitely do not want to have lateral force on the saw of any kind once 1/2 of the tooth depth is in the cut.


7. I think I have the right grip, i don't think my arm position is the best, though.

8. Paring the sides always makes it look worse, as the cut often gets away from me!

Thanks for you comments!
-Chris

I was serious about David Charlesworth being about the only WW alive that can pare to the accuracy required to retrofit dovetails that have been mis-sawn. I've never seen anyone get one of those "airtight" dt joints by paring. And it's a bad habit to get into anyway - if you've ever seen one of David's videos, you recognize very quickly that the guy's going to take half a century or more to cut the through and half blind dovetails for a case of drawers.

Finally - what George said, and what I put more detail on (and what Pam alluded to), is that analysis of what you're doing is absolutely critical - stop and examine your lines after you mark the dts out with a magnifying glass - if the lines that are on the face of the board and the lines on the end grain do not meet exactly, you're screwed when it comes to putting the joint together, even if your sawing is exemplary. Once you've established that you're marking everything out precisely, establish the kerf on your first cut, but stop and examine the result with your magnifying glass before you saw down to the line. If your kerf is mis-aligned with your knifed line, then no amount of skill in swinging the saw will help - you have to correct the alignment first. Finally, saw down to the baseline, stop, and look at your cut. If it's otherwise straight but has wandered from your line knifed down the face grain, then the saw plate wasn't held perpendicular to the end grain while you were sawing. To help with this, use your small square and set the edge of your board exactly perpendicular to the top of your bench, use a pencil to darken the line that you knifed into the board, position your portable lamp so that you can see this line while in sawing position, and try again.

Generally speaking, the marking and sawing of the dovetails is the biggest hurdle, and the skill that will make the most difference in appearance of the finished product. Sawing or chopping the waste is also important, but not nearly as difficult to correct.

Finally, realize that an end-grain cut with a powered miter saw, or a cross-cut with a hand saw isn't going to do it for what you need to set your 2 practice boards up. An accurate cross-cut sled on a table saw is probably adequate, but a shooting board and a plane is much better. If you're off by about 2 degrees from a perfectly square cut across the grain, or off by that much from the end of the board being perpendicular to the sides, then it will throw off your marked lines, your saw kerfs, and likely the whole joint. Check the squareness/perpendicularness of these ends carefully with a very accurate square. You won't need to do this forever, but it's really critical that you not throw more obstacles in your way when you're learning for the first time.

Post some pics for us after you put some practice in this weekend - all of us would like to help you imporove (because we can all remember our first time doing these, how difficult or impossible it seemed, and how easy it was after a few lightbulbs went off!)

[george wilson]

David has clearly elucidated the"being very observant" tip I gave. Those reprints of early 20th.C. woodworking books by Hasluck and others have been around for years. (The ones where the woodworker is dressed in white shirt and tie!!) They are still good books to look up.

[Chris Atzinger]

Hi David,


I have a set of left/right crown marking knives, but I have only been using the pencil to mark the pins. Perhaps I should put them to use? As for the saw, it is definitely 100+ years old. I had it rejointed and retoothed a month ago. The set is good. I also agree about the chisels. The AIs are great, but still needed some work to flatten the backs. I use 1000, 5000, and 8000 shapton ceramic stones to sharpen, and a course DMT stone to flatten the shaptons. If I really want to get a polish, i move to microfilms.

I'll also try using my cutoff sled to trim the edges of the boards this weekend. Thanks again for all the guidance!

Thanks!
Chris

[george wilson]

Though for most of my earlier years,I used ordinary old Disston back saws,I now much prefer the .015" thick blades on the best dovetail saws. They cut a very thin kerf,which helps you see exactly where you are cutting on a thin line.

The most popular dovetail saws we made for the
historic
area were the little .015 ones.

[Scott Stafford]

Hello Chris,

In answer to your question of if attending Rob's class would be helpful... yes. Not only is Rob a very good craftsman, but more importantly, he is a very good instructor; a very experienced teacher. He has seen every possible bad habit and every mistake any of us has ever made and can show you effect steps to eliminate them. While opinions on tails first or pins first vary, Rob's method comes from decades of experience and the teachings Rob has received from others who have generations of experience. It's a good place to start.

An afternoon with a quality instructor will accelerate your learning curve dramatically as well as boost your your enthusiasm and moral.

I attended Rob's week long class last summer in Calgary and am very happy that I did. The class was not limited to dovetails but also thoroughly covered sharpening by hand, mortising, stock preparation and more. While my skills were improved while at the class, the biggest advancements have come in the year since I attended. With correct instruction under my belt, my skills have really improved with lots of practice in the comfort of my own shop, at my own pace.

If the Woodcraft class has less than 18 enrolled, I would think that it would be very beneficial to your skill set. Again, Rob is a very experience instructor and will probably have another experienced craftsman there to help as well.

In my own personal experience, working on my general sawing skills have yielded my biggest improvements. I practice making plumb cut after plumb cut along the edge of a piece of scrap; maybe eight to an inch. Practice cutting right to the your drawn line. Rob really helped me here by showing me how to improve my stance and alignment. Immediately after his correction my sawing improved noticeably. Heck, that would be worth the $75 alone. A lesson that will be with me for a lifetime.

I'd attend!

Best regards,

Scott in Montana

[David Keller NC]

I have a set of left/right crown marking knives, but I have only been using the pencil to mark the pins. Perhaps I should put them to use?

Absolutely. A knifed line is exceedingly helpful when learning dovetails, particularly when you're learning how to accurately start the kerf across the end grain, and follow the face knife line down to your baseline. What is especially important is to closely examine the result after the various steps in sawing - the ideal is to leave 1/2 of the knife kerf. This takes some getting used to, because the natural tendency of the saw is to settle into the bottom of the knifed line, which is exactly what you don't want.

The pencil, by the way, is OK for the tails (assuming you're sawing tails first), because you're marking the other half of the joint from the tails. But - when learning I would still advise marking both halves of the joint with a knife, because you can examine the result with a magnifying glass to be certain that you've got the intersection of the end-grain and face-grain lines dead on. If it's not, and you do a good job of sawing, the joint won't go together because the second half wasn't marked accurately from the first half.



I'll also try using my cutoff sled to trim the edges of the boards this weekend. Thanks again for all the guidance!

Thanks!
Chris

Chris - I think others would second me here, but I would strongly consider making a shooting board and planing the ends of your practice pieces exactly 90 degrees. Assuming you've a plane (I'm guessing yes because of the sharpening equipment you have), the cost is only 1/2 an hour in the shop. There are many plans for shooting boards on this and other forums. It definitely doesn't need to be fancy, have an adjustable fence, or anything else to work beautifully - the only critical aspect is to get the fence exactly 90 degrees to the running track for the plane, and you're off to the races.

[Robert Joseph]

Another way-

Self taught with the aid of a library book from the late 1800's.....but I cheated. I started out using a power scroll saw, but I imagine you could use a band saw, table saw or even hand held jig saw. Point was, I learned how to layout and where/how to cut first then moved on to a dovetail saw and chisels. Did two chests of drawers and a dresser with the power before moving to hand cutting.

Then it was just a matter of learning to saw and chisel straight.

[Jim Neeley]

This thread reminds me of a comment made to me by a honest-to-goodness brain surgeon I met.

Knowing some of the "miracle cases" he'd performed, I told him I really admired his skills. His response? "Brain surgery isn't hard. You just have to know where to cut and how to sew!"

That's what led me to want to migrate from pure power into more neander work. I figured if he could learn to cut brains, I should be able to <eventually> learn to cut dovetails!! :D

[Jim Koepke]

There are a pair of instructive videos on cutting dovetails at woodtreks.com.

Craig Vandall Stevens is a cabinet maker and demonstrates making dovetails. I do not recall exactly what tip it was I picked up there, but did find it useful.

He works from the inside of the joint when he is sawing because he is using a pull saw. Earlier my comment was to saw from the outside. This is when using a push cut saw.

jtk

[Josh Rudolph]

Hi,

I I have actually challenged my self to make a dovetail-a-day. Unfortunately my day 3 dovetails aren't that much different from my day 18 dovetails!

My local woodcraft is hosting Rob Cosman in June, and there is a 4hr seminar that has some open spots. I was told that this really isn't a hands-on type of session, but mostly Rob teaching and taking questions. The cost is $75.

Has anyone done this before? Was it helpful? Is there somewhere else I should be looking for some tutelage?

Thanks!
Chris

Chris,

Keep up the dovetail-a-day. I did it for about a month. What worked best for me was learning to leave my line and sneaking up on the fit. I don't know why I felt I needed to get it done on the first fitting. Now I think I can cut a decent functional dovetail. The one thing that made things easier for me was after WIA and watching Klausz cut his dovetails. He really presents it in a very simple manner and reminds you that they don't have to be air-tight like we all strive to achieve. He told us to look at valuable antiques and see what those DT's look like. After doing the DT-a-day I made the Shaker inspired stepstool that Thomas MacDonald does. It was a good project at the end of the exercise and the results were good enough for me to be willing to give it as a Christmas present.

I cut DT's either method. For Drawers inside I will use pins first. Fro half-blinds and show DT's I will do tails first.

The tails first method, I learned from Cosman's video. His video is a good investment if your teaching yourself IMO.

To answer your question...I would buy a video over the Woodcraft seminar. I would be too concerned of the seminar being an infomercial. However...if I ever get the chance to take an independent Cosman class, I will do it in a blink of an eye.

Good luck,
Josh

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I suppose that I should add that those with whom I spoke that were at a Woodcraft seminar with Rob were all very pleased with the seminar and happy that they were there (I spoke with three people that were there). I paid for the class and intended to attend, but I had direct exposure to swine flue and then became ill, so I skipped so as to not expose others; I was very sad.

[Ed Looney]

Yes it's worth the money. Go to any of Rob's classes if you get a chance. I went to the two day dovetail class. On the Friday before the class my dovetails were horrible. By the end of the class on Sunday this is what the hand tool coach had me doing.
Education is going to cost you something. Trial and error will work but it usually produces more frustration than it does quality education. Someone coaching you past your mistakes produces faster results which makes the learning process enjoyable.

Ed

[Chris Atzinger]

Ed,

Those look perfect!

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I am never disappointed with the responses I get around here! I agree with ed, that education is going to cost, and I have absolutely no problem with that (working on degree #3!). The enrollment for this class is capped at 16, so it is small enough, plus it is apparently a pre-requisite for his Dovetail Degree 2-day course (seriously?). I went ahead and signed up today. I now have additional motivation to make that shooting board I have been putting off.

Thanks!
Chris

[Josh Rudolph]

Ed,

I went ahead and signed up today.

Chris,

Please let us know how the seminar goes.

Thanks,
Josh

[Mick Zelaska]

I just took Rob's hand plane class at Woodcraft with 7 people in the class. Later that day taught a 4 hour hand-cut dovetails class with 6 people. The Woodcraft people told me he likes to keep his classes small.

[Mike Cogswell]

I just the seminar and didn't find it all that useful. A good bit of the time was basically advertisements for his tools and his explanations of why every other toolmakers products are wrong. There was zero hands-on for the students. I was quite disappointed.

His two day class might be a lot better - but it's also a LOT more expensive.

Buy a good DVD - you'll be able to watch it over and over.

[Phillip J Allen]

Last year I took Rob's 2 day dove tail class. Two long 12 hour days by the way. I won't kid you for a second that it wasn't cheap. But at the end of the day I can now say that I can make a dove tail that I am proud of. Before I couldn't.

And if you have the money, spending it only hurts once but you can benefit from it over and over. There's my two cents.

[Chris Atzinger]

I just did the 4 hour seminar, but it was a small group, maybe just 4 of us. There was a little hands-on, where we were sawing straight lines, etc.. We were definitely not cutting dovetails. There were a few asides about the benefits of his tools, but that's to be expected. He is making a living and supporting a family. I didn't mind it. Rob was very personable, though and there was lots of Q&A and feedback.

I wouldn't say I was able to cut dovetails I was proud of after the seminar, but that really wasn't the point of the seminar. That's what the two day class is about. I did get some good pointers though, and the price wasn't bad. I would strongly consider doing the 2 day.

Rob seems to be a pretty likeable guy. I have seen him make some posts around here, that confirmed that as well. At the end of the day, like everything else, the more I do something, the easier it gets.

Good luck!
Chris

[george wilson]

Ed,good looking dovetails,especially since they are seen magnified. I think $75.00 is a low price,too. There's the cost of food,motel,too,but the class cost is pretty reasonable. I have thought of giving classes myself,but I'd have to destroy my machine shop area to install benches. Just too much of a tool pig(and machine tool pig,too!!)

[Carl Beckett]

A philosophical approach:

They say money and material things are not the path to happiness (by 'they', I mean various large research articles). That people in general gain a lot more satisfaction from 'experiences'. These create memories that are ever lasting (well... at least for some last a long time - I have young children and cant remember past last Tuesday)

So spending money on the 'experience' of a class that you would enjoy (and learning new skills), could be much more rewarding than upping the 'tool budget'.

And something that was pointed out to me recently that seemed profound. I was pressing to finish a project when I was asked by a non woodworking friend:

'Its a hobby, why do you want to get the project done? If you enjoy it, you want to drag it out dont you?"

[Jim Neeley]

A philosophical approach:

They say money and material things are not the path to happiness (by 'they', I mean various large research articles). That people in general gain a lot more satisfaction from 'experiences'. These create memories that are ever lasting (well... at least for some last a long time - I have young children and cant remember past last Tuesday)

So spending money on the 'experience' of a class that you would enjoy (and learning new skills), could be much more rewarding than upping the 'tool budget'.

And something that was pointed out to me recently that seemed profound. I was pressing to finish a project when I was asked by a non woodworking friend:

'Its a hobby, why do you want to get the project done? If you enjoy it, you want to drag it out dont you?"

+5, Carl... For me, woodworking is driven by far more by the *process* and doing those things by hand that I enjoy doing than by the speed or quantity of results. It's this very thing that lead me from spending 80% of my time using power tools to 80% working by hand.

Likewise Normite vs. Neanderthal isn't a theological issue; depending on the task at hand and how I feel that day I may perform a task by hand or power, whatever feels like more fun that day. As a result, as time goes on, more and more is done by hand.

If speed were my sole criteria, my dovetail saw would be mostly for show and my Katie jig and Incra fence would get a lot more use. The Katie and Incra just don't provide the "fun factor" of hand-cut joints.

Just my $0.02.. YMMV.

Jim in Alaska

[Ed Looney]

Ed,good looking dovetails,especially since they are seen magnified.

Thanks George a word of encouragement coming from a woodworker with your skills is very much appreciated.

Ed

[Jim Neeley]

Last year I took Rob's 2 day dove tail class. Two long 12 hour days by the way. I won't kid you for a second that it wasn't cheap. But at the end of the day I can now say that I can make a dove tail that I am proud of. Before I couldn't.

And if you have the money, spending it only hurts once but you can benefit from it over and over. There's my two cents.

Once a year, Rob teaches a 5-day, 12-hours/day class, max 12 students/class entitled "Training the Hand" where he covers everything from sharpening, planing, chiseling, dovetails, etc., etc. This year it was offered in August and was full before I learned of it.

Today they I signed up for the August 2013 class. It's going to be held in the Seattle Woodcraft which, since I live in Alaska, is the cheapest travel option.

Talk about being amped!!! :);):)

Jim in Alaska

[Bob Warfield]

Jim, Merry Christmas early! I'd love to be able to go to one of his workshops. For now I'm learning a lot watching his online school.
Happy Holidays
Bob

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I took his hand plane restoration class last year while I was totally deaf. Rob made provisions to accomodate my disability. It was a good class well worth the expense.

[Ed Looney]

Jim

Good for you!! The opportunity for taking woodworking classes when you live in Alaska must be difficult. Glad to see you wen't all out for the five day session in Washington. Rob is a good teacher you will probably feel mentally exhausted from trying to cram all the information in your head. The difference in taking a class and watching his online school is that he will be able to observe you and tell you what you are doing wrong with the tool. I found that extremely valuable.

Ed

[rob cosman]

Jim

Good for you!! The opportunity for taking woodworking classes when you live in Alaska must be difficult. Glad to see you wen't all out for the five day session in Washington. Rob is a good teacher you will probably feel mentally exhausted from trying to cram all the information in your head. The difference in taking a class and watching his online school is that he will be able to observe you and tell you what you are doing wrong with the tool. I found that extremely valuable.

Ed

Saw this thread and thought I'd respond. You have to decide what is good value and what isnt but for those wanting a short cut to making decent dovetails I thought this would offer some evidence of what can happen in a short time. Had a one day (12 hour) workshop in Eugene, Oregon on the weekend, 7 students in the class. Age ranged from late 30's to late 70's. Joe's pictured dovetail was his second ever, near perfect. James has been cutting them for awhile and it showed, very good. The rest were mostly doing it for the first time or had a few ties at home before the class. http://robcosman.com/student_gallery.htm
May have to hit refresh since it just went up. No test fit on these, first and only time is with glue. You be the judge, did they spend thier money wisely!
CHeers
Rob

[Phil Thien]

Wow, those student result pictures are EXTREMELY impressive!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

And that is why I have been trying to find a class close enough for me to attend...

[Carl Beckett]

And that is why I have been trying to find a class close enough for me to attend...

Hey Andrew - Jim is flying from Alaska to Seattle for it. Im guessing Columbus to Seattle isnt that much farther...? ( ;) )

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hey Andrew - Jim is flying from Alaska to Seattle for it. Im guessing Columbus to Seattle isnt that much farther...? ( ;) )

I have attempted to sign up for some classes, but various things have conspired against me; for example traveling for work and family commitments. I managed to sign up for the shorter class, but the night before the class, I found out that I had the swine flu, so I chose to not attend so that I did not infect others. That was tough because I had really been looking forward to the class, even though I really wanted the longer class.

Side note: Although my local (Columbus, Ohio) woodcraft has a no refund policy based on no notification until the morning of the class, they graciously refunded my money when I told them why I missed. I did not ask for a refund, and I initially refused it, but they insisted.

I attempted to sign up for a few other classes that were from 2 to 5 hours drive, but they were always sold out. Seattle is a few time zones away (I am in EST), but you are correct, I could catch a plane and take a hotel room if things were on my radar sufficiently early... Then the only tricky part is freeing up the cash to deal with the added expense of air travel and hotels.

[Jim Neeley]

Seattle is a few time zones away (I am in EST), but you are correct, I could catch a plane and take a hotel room if things were on my radar sufficiently early... Then the only tricky part is freeing up the cash to deal with the added expense of air travel and hotels.

Hey, Andrew... The class is from the 19th to the 23rd of August next year. That puts it on your radar!!!

How's that for throwing out the bait? <g>

Hope to see you there.

Jim in Alaska

[Carl Beckett]

Hey guys,

When you are there in Seattle visit Northwest Woodworkers Gallery. One of my all time favorites for inspiration:

http://www.nwwoodgallery.com/

Probably some members here?

[Jim Neeley]

Great idea, Carl. It looks like a good place to spend a day!!

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi,

I am struggling a bit to make sound, good looking handcut dovetails. I have actually challenged my self to make a dovetail-a-day. Unfortunately my day 3 dovetails aren't that much different from my day 18 dovetails!

My local woodcraft is hosting Rob Cosman in June, and there is a 4hr seminar that has some open spots. I was told that this really isn't a hands-on type of session, but mostly Rob teaching and taking questions. The cost is $75.

Has anyone done this before? Was it helpful? Is there somewhere else I should be looking for some tutelage?

Thanks!
Chris

If you're having this much trouble I can practically promise you are making one of two mistakes and perhaps both. As others have mentioned this could be because your body is out of position; it could also be something like bifocals not being optimized for the distance you are away from the workpieces. Jim Kingshott had a special prescription for shop work if that makes a difference to you.

Your problems most likely are one or both of these:


Pin cuts are not 90* to the face of the board;
Tail cuts are not 90* to the endgrain of the board


These cuts have to be vertical, though referenced to a different part of the board. Persistently gappy dovetails are almost always a result of off-vertical cuts as listed above.

I doubt a dovetail seminar will help. Get in the shop and practice with the points I've made in mind.

[Chris Griggs]

Your problems most likely are one or both of these:


Pin cuts are not 90* to the face of the board;
Tail cuts are not 90* to the endgrain of the board



Agreed! (though I think those are listed in reverse - Pins need to be 90 degrees to endgrain, and tails need to be 90 degrees to face) No single thing had a bigger improvement when I was first learning dovetails then being extra careful to make that my initial tail cuts across the end grain were 90 degrees to the face. This is still the single biggest thing I focus on to maintain consistent dovetails. When I get gaps (which never happens anymore ;)) I find that 99% of the time it is because one of my initial tail cuts was a tad out of square.

[Charlie Stanford]

Agreed! (though I think those are listed in reverse - Pins need to be 90 degrees to endgrain, and tails need to be 90 degrees to face) No single thing had a bigger improvement when I was first learning dovetails then being extra careful to make that my initial tail cuts across the end grain were 90 degrees to the face. This is still the single biggest thing I focus on to maintain consistent dovetails. When I get gaps (which never happens anymore ;)) I find that 99% of the time it is because one of my initial tail cuts was a tad out of square.

'pends on how you look at it I suppose but you get my drift. I just evaluate where I make my 90* mark with a plain square, which is on the engrain for tail cuts and on face grain for pin cuts. But you're right too.

[Chris Griggs]

'pends on how you look at it I suppose but you get my drift. I just evaluate where I make my 90* mark with a plain square, which is on the engrain for tail cuts and on face grain for pin cuts. But you're right too.

Ah yes, we were just looking at/speaking about it differently. I was thinking in terms of where the line is sqaure too (for tails square to the face), you were speaking about where the square line is located (For tails, on the endgrain).

I thought that's maybe what you meant, but wasn't sure so I figured I'd try to clarify in my post on the off chance you had mistyped or something. We were both correct indeed.

For anyone who didn't get the gist, we were both really just saying, that the lines that are supposed to be square, REALLY NEED to be square.

[Charlie Stanford]

Ah yes, we were just looking at/speaking about it differently. I was thinking in terms of where the line is sqaure too (for tails square to the face), you were speaking about where the square line is located (For tails, on the endgrain).

I thought that's maybe what you meant, but wasn't sure so I figured I'd try to clarify in my post on the off chance you had mistyped or something. We were both correct indeed.

For anyone who didn't get the gist, we were both really just saying, that the lines that are supposed to be square, REALLY NEED to be square.

Yep, cuts not square when they're supposed to be is THE major reason joints go together with gaps.