Wood Price Rant

[Bob Winkler]

:confused: I can't believe the high cost and poor quality of wood these days. I promised my daughter a maple and cherry bookcase for her birthday, and we've been looking at wood together.

Last week we tried my usual source in Enfield, and the figured maple (curly/tiger) looked terrible and wasn't worth buying. The cherry was even worse, and the prices were insane.

Today we went to Harris, which is closer to home, but is usually avoided because they are more expensive. Well, I bought a few nice boards of tiger maple and regualr hard maple -- $300 to do the sides and back of the bookcase:eek: . At least they had some decent quality maple, even if I did pay $8.90/bd ft. Forget the cherry, what they had was very limited and tough to justify the cost.

So now I'm not sure what to do. The thought of spending $800 or more total for a bookcase really irks me. I'm actually considering making a road trip to New York or PA to try to get better quality and lower prices. It may be worth the effort. Heck, my daughter suggests that I buy wooded property somewhere and start cutting my own! I wish it were that easy.

What does everyone else do about this problem? Maybe CT is more expensive than some areas, but I'm sure wood prices are high everywhere.

Bob

[Mike Tempel]

Wood prices are outrageous - I think it is a nationwide thing with some spots being cheaper than others. I don't know for sure but I would imagine that in some parts, where wood is more plentiful and mills are more widely available, that prices are not an issue. For me in Houston this is not always the case. Some friends and I have found an "underground" source for some QS red oak. Hence, I have about 400 bd ft in my shop and that is what I will use for some time to come. In fact, at the rate I get time to spend in my shop it is not out of the realm of possibility that my current stock will last me for 3 years or more. I may be more of a tightwad than others but when it comes to big projects I simply must think of the costs associated with the lumber as justification for doing it or not. Often times I won't build something just because of what you ran into - $800 is a lot of money for a bookcase. This is also why I find it hard to justify building stuff for friends or neighbors as they simply don't understand the cost of lumber alone - not to mention time, wear and tear, etc.

[Doug Shepard]

Haven't bought maple in a few years, but I'm with you on the quality of the cherry. The suppliers around here have plently of it, but the amount of sapwood left on boards is getting worse and worse at least on 4/4 stock. I think maybe mills are paying a bit more attention when they cut the thicker stuff - 8/4 thru 12/4. I've sometimes ended up going that route, then resawing. It costs more per BF that way, but overall it might be a wash as there seems to be less waste due to cutting around sapwood. If I'm strictly planning on buying 4/4, I have to resign myself to spending 3 or 4 hours at the suppliers. That's usually how long it takes to pick through their boards to find enough usable wood.

[Joseph N. Myers]

Bob,

Not sure what it is with CT, supply and demand, maybe something in the water or whatever. Seems that CT has about the highest prices I've seen (except some places in CA).

First thing you want to do is to check out www.woodfinder.com (http://www.woodfinder.com/), put in your zip code, distance you would travel, type of wood you want and it will spit out local supplier (that entered themselves in the data base). Best way to find a local sawyer.

Next for bookcases, etc., you may want to use veneer plywood with real wood for the edges. Granted, good veneer plywood , not the HD type, goes for upwards to $100 a sheet (more for figured), but your talking under $4.00/bf and sure cuts down on the work. (I have a good 10,000 bf of oak, maple, walnut, etc., and rarely use real wood for bookcases, shelving, etc. unless requested, just not worth it).

UPS packages, the 20bf for around $100 including shipping/handling might be a good thing in your situation. Some of the ones that come to mind are:

www.walllumber.com (http://www.walllumber.com/)
www.woodworkers.net (http://www.woodworkers.net/)
www.niagaralumber.com (http://www.niagaralumber.com/)
www.westpennhardwoods.com (http://www.westpennhardwoods.com/)

And of course, heading for NY/PA is not too bad of an idea. Heading north might be a little better for you because of your location but prices up there are also somewhat high. (woodfinder.com might be a big help in this area).

Regards, and good luck, Joe

[Bob Winkler]

Thanks for the good links and advice. I first planned on using maple veneer plywood with solid wood edging for the back and shelves. In fact, I built a whole walk-in closet organizer from cherry plywood and cherry edging. It turned out real nice.

But my daughter nixed the idea of any plywood, because she wanted it as a heirloom and something that she'll cherish always. She gets her good (and expensive) taste from her mother.

I might be able to convince her that plywood would work well, but if I'm going through the time and effort, I'd rather have her as happy as possible.
Bob

[Jim Becker]

Bob, although I personally don't like using plywood in my furniture projects (and generally don't) because I truly enjoy working with solid stock, using it does not disqualify a piece from being an "heirloom". The quality of your design, construction and finishing as well as the profound personal relationship or the receiver to the piece is what makes it an heirloom that will be passed down over the generations. In other words, it's the expression not the execution that counts!

As to the cost of lumber, since you appear to be looking for domestics, start searching out the "little guys"...folks who cut lumber, usually with a band-mill, and then sell it either green or as quality air-dried material. I buy a lot of my lumber that way and get "premium" quality for about half what most of the larger retailers are getting. The last cherry I bought (not including what I stole from Dan Smith... ;) ) was about $3.00 bd/ft. The seller is a small operator that has been cutting lumber for over 45 years; cash only and a large inventory of very nice, furniture grade air-dried lumber that I can pick through to my little heart's content. He also keeps the stacks small so it's easy to find things without being buried in wood. Since he only cuts local wood, cherry, maple, walnut, ash and oak are pretty much what's common in his barn. That's fine for me and if I need something really special for a table top or something, I'm more than willing to drive the miles and pay the price to source from a larger specialty shop, especially since I save so much on the more basic material.

[Bob Winkler]

I hope I didn't offend anyone by implying that building with plywood is "second rate". As I said in my post, I do use plywood when it makes sense, and I'm sure that our ancestors would have surely used it if it was available.

I think my wife and daughter feel that using solid wood differentiates what I build from what I could buy anywhere. To them, the extra effort and time spent makes that piece that much more valuable, regardless of the material costs.

And I also like using solid wood, because I end up with lots of cutoffs that often end up in smaller projects.:)

Bob

[Dave Avery]

Bob,

I had the same experience at CWG and haven't been back since. I can personally vouch for Westpennhardwoods and Niagaralumber. Also, I've traveled to Northampton MA. and bought wood from Copperbeech millwork. Good luck. Dave.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

What's up with those prices? They are way higher than I pay here in SA. 4/4 cherry goes for about $5.50 a board foot, maple a little less. Curly maple goes for less than $6.00 a BF, but the last time I bought regular maple I found some with curly figure at regular prices.

[James Carmichael]

Bob,

I stumbled on this link late last night and got numbers for a couple of small sawyers/kiln operators in my area. I haven't contacted them yet and don't know if the links are currenlt or not.

I feel your pain. I'm thinking the best bet is going to be finding a WW club or something in my area and network. One is farily near my family's ranch which is covered with post and blackjack oaks with some ash and mesquite, so I'm thinking that might be a good option, at least for domestics.

http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSSDG.html

[Todd Davidson]

Bob,

There's a small mill in Barkhamstead (860) 379-7645 that may suit your needs

[Dennis Peacock]

I get Curly Maple that is rough cut and kiln dried for $2.60 BDFT and Ash Alder, Oak (white and red) as well as soft maple for just over $2.10 BDFT. About 2 years ago....Red / White Oak was $1.29 BDFT. It all relates back to the cost of FUEL which raised the operating costs of the mills and loggers. So the higher costs get passed on to us consumers. From the looks of things, it's not going to get any cheaper any time soon. :(

[Bob Winkler]

Wow, I can't believe it---curly maple for under $3 bd/ft. Some of you guys are pretty lucky.

I think I might give either Niagra Lumber or West Penn Hardwoods a try. I never tried them because I worry about not seeing the wood before buying it. But until I find a better source, it's worth the chance.

Thanks for all the great comments.

Bob

[Mike Cutler]

Bob. I feel your pain bro'. Wood is very expensive up here, I am building a large book shelf system for SWMBO out of Brazillian cherry. I lucked into a deal at the Woodcraft in W. Greenwich RI and bought all they had at $3.10-3.70 bd/ft. I've heard good things about Hearne Hardwood in Pa and Mike Mastin, here on the board has gotten good remarks for" Mail Order Wood". You may also want to check out Steve Wall Lumber on the net.
If the sizes that you need are within the ability for UPS shipment, that may be the way to go, cause not only are the prices high here in CT, but the quality is very sketchy.
One other factor is that we are still in the middle of winter :( ,and the demand may not be sufficient for the Enfield store to order any new lumber. They may not want to carry the inventory 'til spring. The last time I was in there they looked like they were really concentrating on flooring, but that was before they moved their location.
Good luck looking, If I see anything worth looking at I'll Pm ya'

[Rich Konopka]

:confused: I can't believe the high cost and poor quality of wood these days. I promised my daughter a maple and cherry bookcase for her birthday, and we've been looking at wood together.

Last week we tried my usual source in Enfield, and the figured maple (curly/tiger) looked terrible and wasn't worth buying. The cherry was even worse, and the prices were insane.

Today we went to Harris, which is closer to home, but is usually avoided because they are more expensive. Well, I bought a few nice boards of tiger maple and regualr hard maple -- $300 to do the sides and back of the bookcase:eek: . At least they had some decent quality maple, even if I did pay $8.90/bd ft. Forget the cherry, what they had was very limited and tough to justify the cost.

So now I'm not sure what to do. The thought of spending $800 or more total for a bookcase really irks me. I'm actually considering making a road trip to New York or PA to try to get better quality and lower prices. It may be worth the effort. Heck, my daughter suggests that I buy wooded property somewhere and start cutting my own! I wish it were that easy.

What does everyone else do about this problem? Maybe CT is more expensive than some areas, but I'm sure wood prices are high everywhere.

Bob
Bob,

There are a few small time guys who sell through bargainnews.com (http://bargainnews.com/BNO/CatResult.cfm?RequestTimeout=5000&make=Building%20Supplies) look under Lumber. They offer mostly green but they also sell kiln dried. Also,
you may want to give Moore's (http://www.mooressawmill.com/products.html) a call. He is not any cheaper that CWG but he does have some real nice stock.

[fred woltersdorf]

bob,maybe this guy can help you out.i was going to get some wood from him,but didn't have the room to store it at the time.he's got some curly maple 10''-14'' wide by 5'-8' longx6/4.his name is lou sansone and is located in sterling,ct.email address is lsansone@csiences.com

[Jim Becker]

Bob, one other thought...consider getting several woodworkers together and make a bulk buy from a mill or supplier in a state that typically produces a lot of the species you desire. In that manner, you drive down the cost of the material per board foot and also spread the cost of transportation. You may very well be able to source material that way for about half the retail cost. It just requires some cooperation, committing some space for proper storage and investing in material you may not yet have a project or three for. (You can always get back your money if you need it for an emergency by selling it off to someone local)

[Scott Coffelt]

And Dennis isn't revealing his sources either. I'd be on the highway as soon as I knew where that place was. Curly is $13bdft around these parts.

[Bob Smalser]

:confused:
What does everyone else do about this problem? Maybe CT is more expensive than some areas, but I'm sure wood prices are high everywhere.

Bob

Move out here and I've got a job for ya.

I've got timber rights to 28 acres of hard Bigleaf Maple I haven't touched yet because it's in a tough spot. You can get a 4wd one-ton in there, but it's 6 miles up a steep 2000' climb then 6 miles down to the river bottom on the other side via twisty logging road.

It's going for 700 bucks a thousand BF in the log right now, and you can generally recover nearly twice the log BF scale. That's 35 cents a BF less milling costs and trucking. That's not counting any figure...called "music wood" here and sold seperately in flitches for bigger bucks. All maple has figure under the limbs, and some trees have it throughout at least one side of the trunk. In 28 acres of bottom land you'll find plenty of figure.

I've got the mill and I've got the trucks if you have the biceps. ;)

I just had a logger pal drop off a dead-straight, 30" by 21' maple log two days ago he didn't want to bother hauling to the local mill that buys hardwoods all by its lonesome. Too big for my Pete dump without bucking, I paid him 70 bucks for his trucking costs and a promise of any flooring stock he wanted out of it...but he'll never take me up on that. I'll get 1200 BF or so of flooring and architectural turning stock out of it.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I just bought Red Oak for 1.85 a BF today and maple for 1.25. He gave me about 10 extra BF total too. :) It is a small sayer, but he is great, just have to work around what he has in stock. Right now he is low on cherry, but he gets $2.50 for it.

[Greg Scott]

Jeff,
Is the maple hard or soft maple? If it is hard it may be worth a 3 1/2 hour drive for me since hard maple down here runs about $3.00 to $3.50 a bf. Oak is $2.50 minimum and cherry is at least $4.00.
Greg


I just bought Red Oak for 1.85 a BF today and maple for 1.25. He gave me about 10 extra BF total too. :) It is a small sayer, but he is great, just have to work around what he has in stock. Right now he is low on cherry, but he gets $2.50 for it.

[Matthew Poeller]

I had posted this once before when someone was looking to buy from West Penn Hardwoods but I thought that I would post this again.

I live about 5 minutes from West Penn and would be willing to go look at the wood lot that they have picked out before it is shipped for anyone. I cannot tell you though that West Penn has always done a good job for me. They are the only ones that I buy wood from.

Rocky the owner is a good guy and always gets quality wood.

I am not affiliated with WestPenn I just spend a lot of money there.

[Charlie Plesums]

I hope I didn't offend anyone by implying that building with plywood is "second rate". --snip-- <SNIP>I think my wife and daughter feel that using solid wood differentiates what I build from what I could buy anywhere. --snip--<SNIP>
Bob
You need to give your wife and daughter a tour ... I just went through some high-end model homes with lots of built-ins ... all made from particle board with little or no edge banding. Many shelves only 1/2 inch particle board (can you say sag?) The drawer sides were baltic birch but only about half the height of the drawer, and were nailed to the fronts with square joints - no interlocking wood and certainly no dovetail.

We went through a well known chain furniture store.... Expensive piece was labeled Cherry, Cherry veneer, and cherry stained birch. What I saw was cherry stained home depot grade birch plywood, but I couldn't find any solid cherry anywhere on the piece.

Plywood can be a huge step up, and pretty good material for lots of uses.

High end use of plywood may include 1/2 inch or more of solid edging rather than just veneer edge banding - takes dings better and allows for machining the edge.

All that said, I find that I have to stock up on material when I find good stuff available. I had to turn down a commission for a walnut bedroom set because I couldn't get good walnut at the time. Now I have over 200 bf in storage.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Jeff,
Is the maple hard or soft maple? If it is hard it may be worth a 3 1/2 hour drive for me since hard maple down here runs about $3.00 to $3.50 a bf. Oak is $2.50 minimum and cherry is at least $4.00.
Greg

You know Greg, I am not sure... he calls it "red maple"... I am using it for the secondary wood in a dresser. I will try to find out if it is hard, and if it is, I will let you know.

[Bob Johnson2]

Bob

I've been using Forest Products Associates in Greenfield Ma. It's just before the Vt. line if that's not too far. They have a web page that has their prices but make sure you give her a call before you go to make sure they have what you want. Would be worth verifing the price at the time too, the web is not always up to date.

[Mark Riegsecker]

HELP! I have search until I'm lost:mad: One of you guys had mentioned lumber sources somewhere on this board several months ago. I called this source to find prices and other info. I never thought I would forget the name but now that I'm about to purchase some wood, I can't find the phone # or remember the name.

This post I'm referring to was here at SMC several months ago. At that time I called the secretary of the mill and she told me they were located South of Ft. Wayne, IN ( I don't think it was even 50 miles) and according to the secretary they have acquired another mill across the Ohio state line. I looked on the map at the time, they were quite close together just in different states. I was planing to drive there to see what they had and get some lumber at that time. However, when she said something about free shipping, well that changed things:) .

That's the only information I have. If anyone of you can add any information to what little I have provided I would certainly appreciate your input.

Thanks Mark

[thomas prevost]

western NY and PA are great sources of native hardwoods. When buying by the board West Penn, Niagara, Bristol Valley, Pittsford Lumber all sell kiln dried lumber. South of Rochseter and Buffalo NY are a multitude of small mills that sell green and air dried. some better quality than others. There are also some large mills that sell only by the lift near Jamestown NY and Warren Pa. Wood by the lift is about 50% cheaper than by the board. i.e. select and better cherry for $1.70 per bdft. Creekers should consider getting together with neigboring Creekers/friends and buying by the lift-(700-900 bdft) Two pickups could handle the whole lift.

Could be great road trip. Almost any where in the US there are some large mills within 6 hours of any Creeker. Just a thought.

[Andy London]

The only wood I am having issues with and the price/quality is Cherry. I can get Curly Soft/Hard for $2.50 to $5.00, regular woods like Maple, Oak, Birch are $1.50 to $2.50 all K.D. Birdseye/Quilted is all over the map at the moment, sometimes I get it for as little as $5.00 for AAA or vaneer grade, other times I have paid as much as $12.50 so when I find the quality I want and the price is right I buy a large quanity which is what I did this spring, I have a two to three year supply..(3,000 BF)

I have been doing what Jim Becker mentions above, find the small operators and pay cash. At the moment I have 8 small operators on my list I buy from, each seems to specialize in a specie. For a long time I was using a local wood called Cherry Birch as Cherry, other than the weight it was next to impossible to tell them apart however the market cought on and now the cherry birch is pretty much gone.

I had planned on doing a trip this summer to Beckers and just but a load of Cherry, plans are somewhat delayed at the moment...So I am stuck paying $10.90 + 15% tax for a so so quality....

Having said that, make contacts in these forums and do a day trip, buy as much as you can haul and even sell a bit if you want to offset your costs.

[Mark Riegsecker]

Thanks for your replies. I got a quote from a local (50 mi.) mill of $2.70 bf for quarter sawn oak and $4 bf for cherry. To get some figured and curly cherry is pretty much luck or a sorting expedition. I like to get it rough sawn but it's hard to see what one is buying. I'll be interested to see the quality of this QS oak.

I'll get some of that for now but as Tom suggested, that a few Creekers should consider getting together with neighboring Creekers/friends and buying by the lift-(700-900 bdft) sounds like a good idea.

I often wonder if golf isn't a less expensive hobby:D . Buying lumber at some of these prices makes one fearful of mistakes on the cutting side of the project hence taking away much of the joy; However, if the best wood cost $1 per 1000 bf wouldn't that take something away as well? But who would turn that down? It's a dilemma:eek:

[Bob Nieman]

Sigh. This weekend I drove 600 miles one way and stopped at two wood stores, 1 in Tucson and the other in Phoenix. I specifically looked for cherry since my newly discovered local source doesn't have any. At the $7/BF for shorts place, I looked through the pile and came away with only three narrow (<4") boards for $20. The quality was generally awful, assuming I wanted some color. The full price boards were too big and I was only looking for enough to play with. At the other store, $12/BF would get me some decent stuff, $14/BF had some curl, but as I have no project in mind and limited space and money I just bought a cutoff from the bin out front for $6 (need to measure and see how that came out/BF. It wasn't a bargain). Mesquite might be native to Arizona and New Mexico, but it sure isn't cheap (and besides, what is for sale is either from Texas or South America) @$12-$16/BF.
QS White oak is more like $9/BF. I did find a lot of nice stuff in Albuquerque at that price (a 300 mile drive). When it was rung up it was at $5.50/BF. I didn't complain (actually "cool" was my response). I'll be back.
I did find a local lumber yard that has domestic hardwoods, some of which are at great prices (maple and birch around $2.50) and some which aren't (red oak at 5:50!). Their walnut is long and narrow, but at $7.50 I might save my pennies and buy all of it.
There aren't any local sawyers around here because there really aren't any trees (local mesquite is HUGE at 4" diameter and the local oaks are only 24 inches tall).
I like living here, but maybe woodworking isn't the hobby to pick up.

[Dale Rodabaugh]

Seems to me everything is expensive in CT,and that part of the country.I buy mostly rough oak,4/4 white oak I get for $.80 a board foot.If I buy 200 board feet the price drops to $.70. If I go to 8/4 the price jumps to $2.65.red oak is a little more.around $1.10 for 4/4.This is all kiln dried wood from the Amish country of NE Ohio.Took a little trip last month into VT,NH,and upstate NY.I could not believe how expensive everything was.:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Jim Tobias]

I have bought and do buy different types from different sources, but I buy most of my wood supply from walllumber.com. It is about an 1hr and 15 minutes from me, but I have occasionally bought one of the "UPS" packages and have always been satisfied with the quality.

Jim

[Alden Miller]

Now I know why I haven't moved yet. Although, I think Bob's offer is pretty tempting (It'd take me a year to work up to it since I have a desk job but it does sound nice!).

There's a mill in western maryland that has good prices. If you haven't pulled the trigger yet, come on down.

-Alden

[Vaughn McMillan]

You Easterners (anyone east of about...oh...Tucumcari) are breakin' my heart. Last weekend the curly maple S4S I was seeing was ranging from $10.00 to $15.00 per BF. I've found two relatively local (20 minutes away) hardwood stores, Rockler and Arroyo Hardwoods, both in Pasadena. The stock at Rockler was not real good looking, and I ended up paying $15.00 BF for decent stuff at Arroyo. They also had some big, rough, VERY figured curly maple for $35.00 per BF, but thay's way too rich for my skills. I don't have a surface planer, so I have to buy things that are already surfaced, or that I can square up on the TS.

I know there must be somewhere in the general LA area that has better prices, but I sure haven't found it yet. Mail order is looking like a possibility.

- Vaughn

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

Welcome to my world. :o

Sometimes I just about choke when I think too hard about how much I'm gonna have to spend on a mesquite project.

KC

[Lee DeRaud]

I know there must be somewhere in the general LA area that has better prices, but I sure haven't found it yet.Have you tried Ganahl or Reel down here in Orange County? (I haven't checked their prices lately...for my small projects the Rockler prices are steep but acceptable.)

[Sam Chambers]

Bob, the prices at my local supplier are $3.07 for 5/4 soft maple, $3.58 for 5/4 hard maple. They don't usually carry figured maple, but there's occasionally some in the stack. 4/4 cherry is $4.50, 4/4 red oak is $2.65. All those prices are for quantities less than 100 board feet.

They also have a "discount" rack, where their commercial customers returned part of an order, for various reasons. If I hit it on the right day, some of the prices are half!