Stacking tires on Band Saw wheels

[Mike Cruz]

Okay, I know this sounds crazy. Believe me, I know. And I'm sure I'm gonna get some head tilts, eye rolls, and head shakes. But here it goes...

I got a 1958 Delta/Rockwell 20" band saw a few months back. I've got her running really nicely, but with one issue... When I replaced the tires with Carter urethane tires (blue ones), the blade moved closer to the body of the saw (just under the table) because the replacement tires are about 1/2 the thickness of the old tires. The blade runs between a 1/16 and an 1/8 of an inch form the metal saw body. If there is any vibration of the blade, 1/2 the teeth would get dull instantly.

So, I'm wondering if anyone has had this problem and came up with a fix for it. One of my thoughts is to get another set of urethane tires and put them on, too. Thus increasing the overall tire thickness, and getting the blade another 1/16"+ away from the metal body. Any thoughts?

[Gary Herrmann]

Is the blade a standard length? Does your blade fall outside of the recommended length maybe?

If it were me, I'd measure that and consider buying a different length or even custom sized. Although I don't know how many blades you'd need to replace.

Personally I don't like the idea of an additional set of tires. Especially if it's running as smoothly as you say.

[Andrew Kertesz]

Are the wheels/tires crowned or flat? If they are crowned personally I wouldn't trust it, flat might be worth a try.

[Michael Peet]

Is the blade a standard length? Does your blade fall outside of the recommended length maybe?

I think the issue is that the thinner tires make the overall wheel diameter smaller. Blade length would not have an effect.

I don't have a solution though.

Mike

[John McClanahan]

If you can't come up with a better idea, I would give it a try. Worst case, you would have to carefully cut the second tire off. Anything else will require getting the new tires off somehow.

John

[Chris Parks]

Take a grinder to the table and create the clearance?

[Mike Cruz]

Yes, Michael, you got it right. But to answer Gary's question, it does not take standard sizes. Well, it will take them, but the upper wheel is almost at its limit...puting the wheel almost up against the upper casing. And I just got my two new blades in. :)

Andrew, yes they are flat. The original tires were crowned, but these are flat.

John, I don't really mind trying it, but at $36 a tire (and I already have two on) if the second set of tires doesn't work and I ruin both sets, thats an easy $150 out the window. Rather not waste the money if I don't have to. But if it'll work...

[Myk Rian]

I think you got better advice on OWWM.

[Mike Cruz]

Saw that did ya, Myk? I thought I'd ask in both places. Funny how the answers differed. But I expect that. Many there are purists and probalby don't even know what those funky blue tires are anyway. But then again, those guys wouldn't be in my position right now 'cause they would have bought factory replacement tires that would fit just right...

The folks at Carter say that they've heard of people putting two layers on, but can't actually recommend it. That's why I thought I'd ask. To see if anyone's tried it, and if so, to what extent of success or failure.

[John McClanahan]

I hear ya on the cost! But you already have a new set mounted on the wheels. Could you even reuse the tires if you could remove them? In order to increase the overall diameter of the wheels to get the clearance where you need it, there seems to be few choices. I'm guessing a blade cost almost as much as a tire. As you said, if the blade scuffs the frame, it will be damaged.

I use a smaller specialty band saw at work that has the opposite problem. It is as if the wheels are a bit too big. The blade guides are are adjusted over to their limits as a result. I have done some frame trimming to allow clearance, but I dread doing it. Once the metal is removed, it can't be put back.

John

[Myk Rian]

I think the pressure and release cycles of stacked tires would lead to them separating from the wheels in short order, if not immediately.
As one stated on OWWM, Woodworkers tool works has 1/4" tires. I would go that route.
Even machine restorers use the urethane tires. I did.

By the way, they do need to be crowned. Any band saw with flat wheels needs it. If the saw has crowned wheels, such as a Delta 14", you don't need to do it. It needs to be done for the same reasons flat belt pulleys have a crown. It keeps a flat blade running true. The ridges in the wheels are for the cement, if used.
For a vintage saw, the last thing you want to do is grind the table for clearance.

[Lee Schierer]

Havve you checked to see if other manufacturers make thicker tires? I'm not familiar with the "blue ones", but as I recall, teh orange tires I obtained from Suffolk Machine for my Dad's 18" saw were about 1/4" thick.

[Salvatore Buscemi]

John, I don't really mind trying it, but at $36 a tire (and I already have two on) if the second set of tires doesn't work and I ruin both sets, thats an easy $150 out the window. Rather not waste the money if I don't have to. But if it'll work...

Take the first set off, I would imagine they haven't had much use, right? Since they weren't glued on, you should be able to re-sell them to someone who can use those tires, and then go buy the correct tires for that saw.

[Norman Hitt]

I think the pressure and release cycles of stacked tires would lead to them separating from the wheels in short order, if not immediately.
As one stated on OWWM, Woodworkers tool works has 1/4" tires. I would go that route.
Even machine restorers use the urethane tires. I did.

By the way, they do need to be crowned. Any band saw with flat wheels needs it. If the saw has crowned wheels, such as a Delta 14", you don't need to do it. It needs to be done for the same reasons flat belt pulleys have a crown. It keeps a flat blade running true. The ridges in the wheels are for the cement, if used.
For a vintage saw, the last thing you want to do is grind the table for clearance.

That isn't exactly correct, because NONE of the MiniMax bandsaws have either crowned wheels OR tires, and the tires are not glued to the wheels either. I "think" most of the Italian Bandsaws are the same as the MiniMax Saws in regard to being flat.

Note: I have no idea if the crowned tires are absolutely essential on his Delta Saw though, but he does need thicker tires, and I would be a little skeptical as to whether glue would hold two urethane tires together or not.

[Mike Cruz]

Again, thanks to all for the comments and suggestions. Here's where I stand:

No the tires are not glued down, so yes, they can be and will be resold to someone that can use them. I found a set of tires from Sulpher Grove (they have an Ebay store). Each set comes with an upper and lower tire (orange, thicker than the blue ones) and a set of very thin tires (actually more like a narrow band) that goes into the grove of the wheel. This band is slightly thicker than the groove is deep. So, when you put the tire on, it creates a crown. The price is quite reasonable...even free shipping. I'm going to try these. If this doesn't work, I'll sell these, too, and just spend the money for OEM tires.

[Bobby Knourek]

I guess it is never too late to reinvent the wheel.

The correct product is available, as well as other solutions that have worked.

Stacking tires has worked, but at a very low precentage and can create a dangerous crash.

You may want to try to buid your wheel up in dia. with BONDO and machine the wheel concentric to the bore.
Use a epoxy to adhere the tires, you can crown the Bondo and be quite accurate with the thin tire epoxied
and conforming to the crowned wheel.

Even though you did not purchase the tires from Woodworkers Tool Works.com feel free to give them a call for help.
800 475 9991

[Myk Rian]

That isn't exactly correct, because NONE of the MiniMax bandsaws have either crowned wheels OR tires, and the tires are not glued to the wheels either. I "think" most of the Italian Bandsaws are the same as the MiniMax Saws in regard to being flat.

Note: I have no idea if the crowned tires are absolutely essential on his Delta Saw though, but he does need thicker tires, and I would be a little skeptical as to whether glue would hold two urethane tires together or not.
Since the saw is a 1958 Delta, and not a MiniMax, and Delta recommended crowning tires, he needs to crown them. Either by an inner band on the wheel, or grinding them.

[bob hertle]

I guess it is never too late to reinvent the wheel.

The correct product is available, as well as other solutions that have worked.

Stacking tires has worked, but at a very low precentage and can create a dangerous crash.

You may want to try to buid your wheel up in dia. with BONDO and machine the wheel concentric to the bore.
Use a epoxy to adhere the tires, you can crown the Bondo and be quite accurate with the thin tire epoxied
and conforming to the crowned wheel.

Even though you did not purchase the tires from Woodworkers Tool Works.com feel free to give them a call for help.
800 475 9991

Bobby,

The tires he's getting are orange urethane, and I've never found an epoxy that will bond urethane to metal. (cast iron, steel, aluminum)
The only adhesive that I have used successfully for this purpose is 3M 5200 marine adhesive. Over on OWWM, some have used urethane construction adhesive, but I have no first hand experience with that. If you know of an epoxy that will bond urethane to metal, I'd like to know about it! The 3M 5200 has a 7-day cure--if conditions are right!

Regards,
Bob

[Mike Cruz]

Ok, just in case anyone sees this thread and didn't catch my last post, here is my solution, for now:

I found a set of tires from Sulpher Grove (they have an Ebay store). Each set comes with an upper and lower tire (orange, thicker than the blue ones) and a set of very thin tires (actually more like a narrow band) that goes into the grove of the wheel. This band is slightly thicker than the groove is deep. So, when you put the tire on, it creates a crown. The price is quite reasonable...even free shipping. I'm going to try these. If this doesn't work, I'll sell these, too, and just spend the money for OEM tires.

Also, for S's and G's, I took a couple of pics of the problem. Hope you can see it clearly enough.

[Myk Rian]

Also, for S's and G's, I took a couple of pics of the problem. Hope you can see it clearly enough.
Yeah. I see you have chipped paint. Shame. :)

[Norman Hitt]

Since the saw is a 1958 Delta, and not a MiniMax, and Delta recommended crowning tires, he needs to crown them. Either by an inner band on the wheel, or grinding them.

Yeah Myk, my computer somehow ditched my first post when I clicked to post it, and in it, I stated that it was only for clarification that not all Bandsaws were designed to use crowned tires, so someone reading this thread that was unfamiliar, would not think they needed to crown the tires on a MM or other saw that was not designed to use them. (I got lazy in my second attempt to post), sorry about that.:D The difference in designs is interesting, in the way they affect tuneup also, such as with crowned tires or wheels, it is much more important for the wheels to be coplaner, but when you get a flat tired BS tuned properly and then check the wheels, they are rarely coplaner.

Mike, I'm glad you documented this thread with the pictures, because they really show how important maintaining the original tire thickness is to maintain a safe clearance of the blade to the table and or frame slot.

[Mike Cruz]

Norman, I feel ya about getting lazy/sloppy at the second attempt on a post. It has happened to me all too often that I write a long post, hit send, then either my computer locks up or for some reason the forum didn't get it. Too lazy to start all over, I give a half-#%%ed second attempt.

Anyway, speaking of lazy, I should have just taken and posted those pics in the first place. I didn't think it would be necessary, but obviously my descriptions weren't as clear as I thought.

[Mike Cruz]

Had to point that out, didn't cha...

[Myk Rian]

Did you see this on owwm? http://www.owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95499

[Mike Cruz]

Very interestin, Myk. No, I hadn't seen it. Thanks.

[Rick Potter]

Let me get this straight.

A: You bought tires for your saw from Carter.

B: It's Delta, not some brand we never heard of.

C: The tires don't work correctly.

D: Thicker tires that will work are commercially available.

Seems to me Carter should refund your money, so you can get the correct ones. Have you asked them??
Even if they don't, I certainly wouldn't do something Micky Mouse to your saw, or stack tires when the right ones are available.

My two cents.

Rick Potter

[Mike Cruz]

Thanks, Rick. I agree that I shouldn't do something Mickey Mouse to the saw. That is why I was asking. I was asking to find out if it was a viable option, if it was a Mickey Mouse fix, or not even a possiblility. Not sure if you saw my later thread with the solution I've come up with... http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?165879-Stacking-tires-on-Band-Saw-wheels&p=1702721

[Mike Cruz]

Well, problem solved! I installed the orange tires and that thin orange mini tire that fills the groove in the tire. The directions call for one (or more if you want to) 1/2" strip of Gorilla Duct tape to go on top of that mini groove filling tire. Then the orange tire on top of that. Between the orange tire being thicker that the Carter blue ones, and the mini tire/duct tape strip (to create the crown), it moved the blade to about an 1/8" from the metal body, and now I have a crown...so the blade tracked great.

Thanks for everyone's two cents! I appreciate it.

[Phil Thien]

Well, problem solved! I installed the orange tires and that thin orange mini tire that fills the groove in the tire. The directions call for one (or more if you want to) 1/2" strip of Gorilla Duct tape to go on top of that mini groove filling tire. Then the orange tire on top of that. Between the orange tire being thicker that the Carter blue ones, and the mini tire/duct tape strip (to create the crown), it moved the blade to about an 1/8" from the metal body, and now I have a crown...so the blade tracked great.

Thanks for everyone's two cents! I appreciate it.

Are there rims on your wheels between which the tire sits?

The only saw I ever had which had a groove in the wheel, with a matching key in the tire, was an Inca. The key on the tire fitting in the groove on the wheel was the only thing which would keep the tire from sliding off the wheel.

On my current saw there are rims on the wheel which keep the tire from sliding off.

Does your saw's wheels have both grooves and rims?

[Rick Potter]

Great, Mike

glad you came up with a good solution. That is a nice saw you have there.

Rick P

[Curt Harms]

Well, problem solved! I installed the orange tires and that thin orange mini tire that fills the groove in the tire. The directions call for one (or more if you want to) 1/2" strip of Gorilla Duct tape to go on top of that mini groove filling tire. Then the orange tire on top of that. Between the orange tire being thicker that the Carter blue ones, and the mini tire/duct tape strip (to create the crown), it moved the blade to about an 1/8" from the metal body, and now I have a crown...so the blade tracked great.

Thanks for everyone's two cents! I appreciate it.

A fix with the Red Green stamp of approval :D. Glad it worked out.

[Homer Faucett]

Are there rims on your wheels between which the tire sits?

The only saw I ever had which had a groove in the wheel, with a matching key in the tire, was an Inca. The key on the tire fitting in the groove on the wheel was the only thing which would keep the tire from sliding off the wheel.

On my current saw there are rims on the wheel which keep the tire from sliding off.

Does your saw's wheels have both grooves and rims?

The old Delta 20" bandsaws used what was called a Carter Jiffy Tire. It had a metal band with a metal "keel" that protruded all the way around the band and inserted into the groove in the saw's wheel. On top of the metal band was the rubber tire adhered to the metal band. It's an odd beast, and neither Carter nor Delta carry those anymore, and they were about $100 each when they did carry them. I only know because I have a Yates American J120 that also used them, or a similar variant of those.

[Mike Cruz]

Phil, no there are no rims to keep it on. They are very tighly stretched. I think the crowing that keeps the blade in the middle of the wheel also keeps the tire on... The seller of the tires, Sulfer Grove, says that you can glue them down if you want, but probably isn't necessary. I pushed some thick old dry hard oak through to see if there would be any issues...and NONE. Worked like a charm.

This system is basically two tires and two "rings". You put the rings in the grooves, then the tires over the rings. The rings are slightly thicker (but the same width) as the groove. So, they protrude from the wheel surface a little...creating the crown when the tire is put on. The 1/2" strip of duct tape creates just a little more crown. You can add multiple layers of duct tape to create more crown if you want/need.