Another wagon vise thread

[Jay Maiers]

Hello all,
I'm working out details for a DIY wagon vise. Most of the DIY builds seem to use the Lee Valley tail vise screw; is it really necessary to use a 1-1/8" screw for this application? That seems like serious overkill... I'm considering using a 3/4-6 left hand screw for my build and wanted to double check before buying the components.

Provided I have a solid and tight guide plate, will the 3/4-6 screw be good enough?

I don't see why it wouldn't work, but I've never used a wagon vise. I understand how it works and what it does / does not do (thankk you Mr. Schwarz!), but I don't have first hand experience with the forces involved with this particular project.

FWIW, I intend on building a full scale prototype before building it into my bench. Drawings are nearly complete and parts are less than a day away thanks to McMaster Carr. All I have to do is hit the order button... :D

Thanks,
Jay

ETA: I'm assuming that most of the folks that have built a wagon vise used the Lee Valley screw out of convenience and available parts, and not because the vise really needs that much beef. However, we all know about assumptions, and I've made more than one mistake in my life because of them...

[Johnny Kleso]

Most boards I plane I only use a table stop the tail dog is just a added plus..
The new mortice in screw dog from LV uses only a 3/8-1/2 screw I think..

3/4" is plenty I think unless you want to snap boards in two..

[Jay Maiers]

3/4" is plenty I think unless you want to snap boards in two..

195540

That's my thought as well, but I wonder if there aren't other uses for the vise that I have not considered. The Schwarz book points out the fact that a wagon vise can be used as a spreader or a clamp for holding dovetail work upright; neither of which I would have considered on my own.
Again, I'd think that a 3/4 screw would suffice, but inexperience is a plague in my shop. :rolleyes:

[Tom Vanzant]

In a tail vise or wagon vise, its not so much the diameter of the screw, but the pitch of the thread... how far does one turn of the screw advance the vise? A 3/8" dia screw may be strong enough to hold the workpiece, but a 3/8"-16 UNC screw would take 16 turns to move the vise only an inch. The earlier wooden vise screws were much larger in diameter but also had a much larger thread profile that advanced the vise much quicker... maybe 2 or 4 turns per inch. When designing a vise, its not just a matter of "is it strong enough?" Screw diameter and pitch both need to be considered, as well as how you are going to turn the vise screw... Tommy bar or handwheel crank?

[Chuck Nickerson]

If you every use your wagon vise to pull apart an old M&T joint, you may well want the larger screw.
I recently did chair repair for a co-worker, and I was glad to have all the strength the BC vise offered.

Also, there's the aesthetic issue: a massive becnh just looks better with massive hardware.
Of course, YMMV.

[Johnny Kleso]

3/4"-6 vs the 1"-5 or 1 1/8"-4 your just talking 1-2 turns per inch

Most machine shop milling vises only use a 3/4" screw and are in use 8-24 hours a day, ever day and last 10-20 years..

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

I'm interested to see the progress of your build. Is this something that can be done with just hand tools, or would it be something that would require a lathe/mill?

[Jay Maiers]

I'm interested to see the progress of your build. Is this something that can be done with just hand tools, or would it be something that would require a lathe/mill?


Well, I don't have an answer to that just yet. I think it will depend on the kind of accuracy you want, the tolerances that you can live with, and, of course, your skill with tools.
I can tell you that I'm using a CNC router to accomplish parts of this design. We'll see if my material selection works out.

Tom: Very valid points. Ultimately I chose the 3/4-6 for two reasons: economy and available space. I would have spent the extra on a faster thread, but the bonus of less required space almost made the choice for me. As far as the handle is concerned, I really don't know. I was thinking a handle similar to the one on pipe clamps would work, although the handwheel idea is tempting... I guess it depends on my clearance from the center of the screw to the top of the table. Having the entire handle below the top surface of the bench is really high on my design list.

The screw should handle pulling an M&T. The dog block / captured nut design might be a different story. I'm going to have to do some additional work on that point.

[Tony Shea]

Like has been stated above, typically the larger diameter screw the coarser the thread. Which odviously effects the speed at which it works. But again, the difference between the two options will not be that significant.

Just bust out the extra cash and go Benchcraft. Wish I personally could right now... just beautiful stuff and functions like a Bently. Got a chance to try one a bit and will absolutely be putting these on my next bench.

[Jay Maiers]

Just bust out the extra cash and go Benchcraft. Wish I personally could right now... just beautiful stuff and functions like a Bently. Got a chance to try one a bit and will absolutely be putting these on my next bench.

I've not had the pleasure of examining or using the Benchcrafted vise, but I believe it to be everything you say and more. I've done a lot of research and have yet to encounter a single negative or even a neutral comment about it, and that's a rare thing indeed.

The only reason I've not bought one: this vise is part of a much larger vice.
I like making stuff and tinkering. This project is something that I consider fun and challenging; it's not a just a chore, a stepping stone, or a box to check on my bench to-do list. I'm sure many folks will disagree with that or think I'm nuts, and that's OK as long as I'm still having fun with it. :)

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I agree with the other posters that the smaller diameter rod would be fine but you do want a pretty coarse pitch. The other thing I feel is important is the type of thread. ACME thread will hold up much better and move much smoother.

Good luck with whatever your choose and post pictures!
Salem

[Richard Line]

Something to keep in mind in the design of the vise is whether the screw needs to react all, some, or none of the resulting moment when you clamp against something. If none of the resulting moment is reacted into the screw, then a very small screw will suffice, as in the new LV wagon vice. I suspect the LV tail vice screw is that large to both react possible moments and to have a low tpi.

Reacting the moment into the screw, or keeping it out of the screw, is a function of the design of the carrier and how it does or doesn't transfer the loads to the bench top.

[Johnny Kleso]

You can buy handles at MSC
http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Hardware/Machine-Equipment-Hardware/Handwheels-Levers-Handles-Knobs/Handwheels/Angular-Handwheels/_/N-77fh8?cm_re=Category-_-BodyLink-_-Angular+Handwheels

You would have to drill them to 3/4"and I would cross drill it with a tapered pin
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=2071&PMITEM=67548206&PMCTLG=00


You will also need a Taper Pin Reamer which can be found at eBay cheap..

[Walter Plummer]

Hello Jay. I built my vises. I used left hand 1/2"-10 Acme threaded rod and nuts from MSC. They also have it in 5/8"-6. The nut is captured inside the "wagon". I have a little over 9" of travel and from fully closed to fully open and it takes 30 seconds of turning. I added a second dog hole so at most I might have to turn for 15 seconds to clamp something. The design is a merger of things I found here at SMC and on the net. Yes, I am still using bolts for handles and I still need to make escutcheons for the outside but so far they work great. Her are photos of the bottom of the vise, the garter, and the handle made from pipe tees.

[Jay Maiers]

Update:
I've decided to go ahead with this project. I bought the 3/4-6 left hand rod, a few nust, several bronze flange bushings, a couple of bronze thrust washers, and a pair of 2-piece clamp collars. Using the very non-neander CNC router at work I've cut a prototype board and hope to get everything assembled this weekend. I've put the threaded rod in place already; with the flange bushings at each end and the clamp collars acting as garters I'm pretty happy with the way it turns. Precision ACME rod and nuts would no doubt be a bit smoother, but this is more than good enough for my purposes.

Johnny, thanks for the handwheels source, but I'm too chicken to drill something like that out :o I was able to find pre-drilled handwheels at the hardware store near my office (Handy ACE, Tucker Ga: hands down the best stocked hardware store I've visited).

Walter; that vise looks great. I'm trying to use square corner aluminum u-channel and some delrin blocks for my sliding mechanism, but I might be over thinking things. The slotted bar stock is probably a lot easier. Any regrets or details that you would change?

[Johnny Kleso]

For Guide bars I would use a three piece steel sandwich IE: 1", 1/2" and 1" and I would steel on steel the delron will wear over time and tail dog will become sloppy and cause board to lift when clamped..

I have been meaning to contact Jameel and tell him this info instead of machining long slots in single piece steel bars..

[Gary Curtis]

This is only a guess, but I suspect that the larger diameter of Acme threaded shafts on vises is to help clearing sawdust from the threads. And offer more thread surface to absorb the clamping pressure.

[Johnny Kleso]

Main reason for acme is the low pitch of thread 4-5 turns and it moves 1" vs 8-10 turns
Plus it is a much stronger thread due to the fat threads..

[felix gess]

hi
i thought of using ascrew from a car lift , i dont need.
just my 2cents

[Matthew N. Masail]

I used a 3\4 inch threaded rod for my DIY build. it works great and is surprizingly powerful. I shot all the deatails here in the
video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlmIO-ZkCbI
jump forward to about 5:30 until the end. it's in Hebrew so you can shut the sound off - it's pretty much self explanatory. the nut's are the "nylock" type.

[Charlie Stanford]

I'm interested in using one of these on a, well, a wagon. Can anybody help me out?

[Steve Bates]

I'm curious about the length of rod you're thinking about using on your vise. I've just looked at McMaster-Carr's site and noticed three pitches, 5,6,8 in 0.750" diameter ACME threaded rod with lengths at a foot, a yard, two yards, and four yards. The one foot length prices all seem similar in adjacent diameters.