noob questions: waterstone selection criteria?

[miguel bernardo]

Hi all! My name is Miguel, i am new to this forum and to tool sharpening in general. hope it is help-the-noob week around here...

so, here´s my case, for those interested: i tried oil stones and it didn´t click with me... i´m trying to find a suitable waterstone set to take care of all my sharpening / honing duties instead. problem is i have more questions than certainties.
I want (don´t we all...) the stones to cut quickly (enough), don´t wear down too quick and stay flat for as much as possible. I also would like if just a spritz of water would be enough... of course i can´t get all of these on a single stone, which are made of compromises, but i would like to know if someone would suggest me stones that would come close.

i´ve been looking particularly at naniwa (superstones and chosera), but also at shapton pro and imanishi stones. from i´ve gathered the imanishi need to be soaked for a while before use, but the others i don´t know.

besides this, i´m planning on buying a 400, a 1000 and a 8000 stones for starters. would that be OK?



thanks to all for reading and for any input. hope this isn´t beaten to death (i didn´t find much regarding naniwa on the searches). and sorry for any english mistakes, i´m portuguese and try my best :)...


cheers,
Miguel.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I have a King 1000/8000 combo stone. I like it. I let it soak in water all the time though. I don't have the money for the better stones, but this one gets my blades sharp so I can work.
I know that's not the best answer, but it's another option. For major work on a blade, I use sand paper on glass or granite before using my stone.
One other thing to think about when getting a water stone, is a method to flatten it. Lie-Nielsen has a good video about flattening water stones on their web site.

[Trevor Walsh]

After switching from scary sharp to a set of combination Nortons. I can say that I certainly like the Nortons for the higher grits. The 8000 doesn't seem to wear as fast as say the 220. I think when I wear out the coarser stones I'll switch to sandpaper or DMT stones for coarse work and do the 4k/8k polish on the waterstones Norton or Shapton.

[Gary Hodgin]

Miguel,
I have Norton combinations 220/1000 and 4000/8000 plus an older Shapton M15 12000g. These stones have served my needs for several years, but I don't like having to soak the Norton's and there are better choices out there today.

Stu Teirney at Tools From Japan sells a large selection and has a good blog. I've never ordered and I have no idea what shipping costs would be, but Stu sells a large selection of water stones and knows them in detail. His website has quite a bit of useful information on it.
Gary

http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=335&zenid=336cb0103907cd5cccf826acb26fdc60

[Pam Niedermayer]

First question is what type of steel you'll need to sharpen. Carbon? Get anything you want. A2? May need to be more selective. And on it goes.

Pam

[Jim Koepke]

Miguel,

Welcome to the Creek.

Your location is not listed in your profile. You may live close to one of us who would be willing to let you test drive their stones.

I have found that the work of a coarse stone like a 400 may be best left to abrasive papers. They seem to wear fast and cut slow.

You mention that you did not like your oil stones. What problems did you encounter?

In my experience, I was not any good at sharpening on oil stones until I learned how to sharpen on water stones. Now I use both.

I have not used Spyderco stones, but some people like them.

Currently, I have King and Norton stones. The only King stone of mine is a 4000 grit. It seems to stay flat longer than the Norton stones.

As Pam mentions, the material you are trying to bring to an edge will have a lot to do with what material you will need to bring it to an edge.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I have a King 1000/8000 combo stone. I like it. I let it soak in water all the time though. I don't have the money for the better stones, but this one gets my blades sharp so I can work.
I know that's not the best answer....

Seems like a pretty good answer to me. You can get any standard tool steel very sharp with it, especially considering what you can get out of it for the price.

[David Weaver]

besides this, i´m planning on buying a 400, a 1000 and a 8000 stones for starters. would that be OK?



Superstones are good straightforward easy to use stones that don't need soaking, and do well on common tool steels. they leave a nice bright polish and a sharp edge, and have a smooth feel like a good natural stone.

Choseras might be a little bit more of a specialty stone, but I haven't yet seen an artificial stone better than the Chosera 10k when it's soaked (in terms of feel and results). Different and less impressive stone if you just try to splash on it, at least what of mine I've used it. I use a shapton pro stones more often because of the convenience. I think the choseras are a bit of an indulgence, and each different one has a different reputation. I like the 400 chosera, though, regardless of the circumstances, and it's not too expensive. It's the best stone i've seen below 800 grit, but it may not be necessary for you to have a stone below 1000 grit.

Shapton pros are a good working stone - a 15k shapton isn't quite as nice as a soaked chosera, but more convenient on a whim, and plenty sharp for anything and then some, and very fast to use.

If you get into more exotic steels, the conversation is different, but there are good cheap and very effective ways to do those, too. You could have a very functional sharpening setup for high speed steels for about $40.

Nothing beats a good stone for feel, though.

[Stuart Tierney]

I want (don´t we all...) the stones to cut quickly (enough), don´t wear down too quick and stay flat for as much as possible. I also would like if just a spritz of water would be enough... of course i can´t get all of these on a single stone, which are made of compromises, but i would like to know if someone would suggest me stones that would come close.

i´ve been looking particularly at naniwa (superstones and chosera), but also at shapton pro and imanishi stones. from i´ve gathered the imanishi need to be soaked for a while before use, but the others i don´t know.

besides this, i´m planning on buying a 400, a 1000 and a 8000 stones for starters. would that be OK?



thanks to all for reading and for any input. hope this isn´t beaten to death (i didn´t find much regarding naniwa on the searches). and sorry for any english mistakes, i´m portuguese and try my best :)...


cheers,
Miguel.

Hi Miguel, and welcome to the forum.

I'm the Stu mentioned by Gary previously.

What you're looking for in your stones is pretty much the same set of wishes everyone has in sharpening stones. I am pleased to see that you are aware that compromises need to be made, because there's ALWAYS a compromise.

Straight up, skip the Superstones. They fail at being fast. They don't need soaking at any grit level, which is nice, but it slows them down greatly. I have them, I've used them and I like them, but I'm using them on Japanese tools with only a small amount of hard steel, and in that capacity they are good. If you can limit yourself to microbevels on every tool you own, then they will work well.

Chosera, these stones DO need soaking. Regardless of what you might have read, they need soaking. They are VERY good stones, but do not stay as flat as some. They are quite fast, very high quality and quite expensive. They are also quite fragile and need to be taken care of correctly.

Shapton Professional are quite good, can be used without soaking effectively (but do benefit from a short soak), stay very, very flat and cut relatively quickly. They're popular because they work very well. They are thinner than most stones though and the grit number on the stone does not match all other stones out there. The #1000 is equivalent to an #800 in Naniwa/Imanishi, the Shapton #8000 equivalent to a #6000 stone from Naniwa/Imanishi.

Shapton Glass Stones, again they work quite well if you can limit yourself to microbevels only. If you put a lot of bevel on the stone, these stones don't like it. They are also expensive and very thin. I've not seen much genuine evidence that they last 'as long as' any other stone. Very convenient and portable.

Imanishi/Bester are quite good. I've only used #700-#1000-#2000 and they are not bad at all. They do need soaking and do need constant watering during use. Very thirsty stones, but they stay quite flat and cut quite quickly.

King, they're cheap and effective but they don't stay flat and they most definitely need soaking. They are also not as fast as most other modern stones, but they are cheap. Since you'll need to have them shipped to you, they aren't really that cheap since the cost of shipping is the same regardless of what the stone is.

There are other stones out there. Because I sell stones, I can't do much more than tell you about the stones you've mentioned and what you're likely to expect from them. I've used a lot of stones on a variety of blades. Enough so that I'm finding that stones tend to stay fairly constant regardless of what the blade is, but they do differ depending on the steel used.

If you can let us know what tools you have and need to sharpen, and especially the steel in them (if you know) it can make a difference as to which stones might work best for you.

Stu.



(Who's starting to think that maybe heavy advertising might be required very, very soon...)

[Curt Putnam]

It might also work if you were to send Stuart Tierny a private mail or contact him through his website - after reading his site well. Everyone I know who has (privately) asked Stu for purchasing advice on their specific needs has been happy with the results. Just be prepared with a list of what you currently have to sharpen, might have and what your budget is. He is a busy man these days so get him before it gets worse.

[Jim Matthews]

+1 on Shapton glass backed stones.

If you only draw the blade toward you, they'll last a long time.

[miguel bernardo]

Hi again, and thanks all for chiming in! all the answers are much appreciated. also thank you for welcoming me, this seems to be a nice and supportive forum.

well, let´s see... so many answers, i don´t even know where to begin...

first, could give some short background: i´m from Portugal, EU. i´m 34 and have just recently started building a guitar. prior to that i had no experience whatsoever of woodworking or hand tools, much less sharpening. i´ve been working with a luthier for half an year now, and am starting to build a small set-up to have permanently with me so i can work by myself also.

re: what type of steel?
that´s all a bit new to me too... i have several vintage stanley planes that i´m bringing back to working conditions (a no 4 and a no 5 from the sixties, a 60 1/2 and a 9 block planes, and then a very vintage sweethart 112 and 12 1/2 scraper planes). all but one have the original irons, which i suppose are not A2 :) ... like stated, i also have some vintage sheffield chisels being rescued (ffotprint and r. sorsby, maybe a marples). as for new tools i plan on buying a lie-nielsen low angle smoother plane (which should be an A2, right?) and some new chisels (maybe two cherries, maybe pfeil). i don´t know much about this, are there many advantages for A2?

re: why not using oilstones?
well, i tried and found them too slow and dislike the idea of oiling them and my tools (and hands, and paper,...) in the 1st place... when someone told me that the newer ceramic waterstones didn´t need much flattening and could be used with just a spritz of water, i got VERY excited, as those were my main concerns with waterstones. besides all this, my sharpening technique is rudimentary at best, and my luthier friend told me that wetstones could be more forgiving towards such lack of technique.

re:not using king stones.
i´m not that interested in them because they need to be - IIRC - used very soaked and kept in water, and that would be too much hassle. besides, they tend to need more flattening, right? the less work on sharpening the better, at least when i´, concerned. the cost factor is not that important ATM, as i´ve been saving some dough just for this in the last couple of months.

cheers,
Miguel.

[miguel bernardo]

Hi Miguel, and welcome to the forum.

I'm the Stu mentioned by Gary previously.

What you're looking for in your stones is pretty much the same set of wishes everyone has in sharpening stones. I am pleased to see that you are aware that compromises need to be made, because there's ALWAYS a compromise.

Straight up, skip the Superstones. They fail at being fast. They don't need soaking at any grit level, which is nice, but it slows them down greatly. I have them, I've used them and I like them, but I'm using them on Japanese tools with only a small amount of hard steel, and in that capacity they are good. If you can limit yourself to microbevels on every tool you own, then they will work well.

Chosera, these stones DO need soaking. Regardless of what you might have read, they need soaking. They are VERY good stones, but do not stay as flat as some. They are quite fast, very high quality and quite expensive. They are also quite fragile and need to be taken care of correctly.

Shapton Professional are quite good, can be used without soaking effectively (but do benefit from a short soak), stay very, very flat and cut relatively quickly. They're popular because they work very well. They are thinner than most stones though and the grit number on the stone does not match all other stones out there. The #1000 is equivalent to an #800 in Naniwa/Imanishi, the Shapton #8000 equivalent to a #6000 stone from Naniwa/Imanishi.

Shapton Glass Stones, again they work quite well if you can limit yourself to microbevels only. If you put a lot of bevel on the stone, these stones don't like it. They are also expensive and very thin. I've not seen much genuine evidence that they last 'as long as' any other stone. Very convenient and portable.

Imanishi/Bester are quite good. I've only used #700-#1000-#2000 and they are not bad at all. They do need soaking and do need constant watering during use. Very thirsty stones, but they stay quite flat and cut quite quickly.

King, they're cheap and effective but they don't stay flat and they most definitely need soaking. They are also not as fast as most other modern stones, but they are cheap. Since you'll need to have them shipped to you, they aren't really that cheap since the cost of shipping is the same regardless of what the stone is.

There are other stones out there. Because I sell stones, I can't do much more than tell you about the stones you've mentioned and what you're likely to expect from them. I've used a lot of stones on a variety of blades. Enough so that I'm finding that stones tend to stay fairly constant regardless of what the blade is, but they do differ depending on the steel used.

If you can let us know what tools you have and need to sharpen, and especially the steel in them (if you know) it can make a difference as to which stones might work best for you.

Stu.



(Who's starting to think that maybe heavy advertising might be required very, very soon...)wow! thanks stu for this very detailed answer. much appreciated. i feel bad not buying the stones from you already, but i have a dealer nearer me and the shipping costs are - understandably - lower than ordering from Japan, and without added VAT and import tax. the prices are comparable, though, with yours a bit lower.

you advise me to skip the naniwa ss? really? that´s too bad, because those were the ones i was most inclined to take the plunge at. and the chosera needs saoaking? i din´t knew that... i´ll have to consider all the options again.

my main criteria is that the stones don´t need to be flattened much often and that they don´t need to be soaked for a long time prior to use. then it comes actual speed of use and wear. your info will be invaluable! thanks again!

cheers,
Miguel.

[miguel bernardo]

Superstones are good straightforward easy to use stones that don't need soaking, and do well on common tool steels. they leave a nice bright polish and a sharp edge, and have a smooth feel like a good natural stone.

Choseras might be a little bit more of a specialty stone, but I haven't yet seen an artificial stone better than the Chosera 10k when it's soaked (in terms of feel and results). Different and less impressive stone if you just try to splash on it, at least what of mine I've used it. I use a shapton pro stones more often because of the convenience. I think the choseras are a bit of an indulgence, and each different one has a different reputation. I like the 400 chosera, though, regardless of the circumstances, and it's not too expensive. It's the best stone i've seen below 800 grit, but it may not be necessary for you to have a stone below 1000 grit.

Shapton pros are a good working stone - a 15k shapton isn't quite as nice as a soaked chosera, but more convenient on a whim, and plenty sharp for anything and then some, and very fast to use.

If you get into more exotic steels, the conversation is different, but there are good cheap and very effective ways to do those, too. You could have a very functional sharpening setup for high speed steels for about $40.

Nothing beats a good stone for feel, though. thanks so much for this short description / introduction, David! it has the info i need.
cheers,
Miguel.

[David Weaver]

Based on what you said, shapton pros, look around on ebay or whatever, or japan - you want japan market stones because something stupid happens between japan and being officially distributed in the US (i.e., someone is adding a lot to the cost for doing nothing). Glue them to a substrate (quartersawn wood, etc) to make them nicer to use and to protect yourself from dropping them. They will cut the steels you mentioned very quickly, allow you to skip soaking and minimize your time spent flattening them.

A 1000 and 8000 would do excellent for your steels. If you think you need sharper than the 8000, then you can add a fine honing paste on a hard surface to run the iron across after the 8000 stone. I suppose you could also get the 12000 instead of the 8000 if you use microbevels or hollow grind (you will want to do one of those two to minimize your efforts and maximize sharpness for the amount of time it takes to get there).

A2 doesn't provide great advantages over good high carbon steels. It wears a little longer, but it's not something you need to go out and buy to replace high carbon steels that you already have. It has its own set of problems in some cases.

I think it's going to look like antiquated stuff (A2) in 5 or 10 years, anyway, so if you ever decide you want newer better stuff, wait for the next generation of tool steels to be more common.

I see looking around briefly that a 1000 pro and an 8000 or 12000 pro can be had for the equivalent $140 plus shipping and whatever other taxes you might have in portugal.

By the way, i mentioned a 15k stone above, and a 12k here. They are pretty much the same thing.

(I have a lot of stones... a number I should be ashamed of, and I keep going back to a dry grinder and a shapton 1k and 15k glued to some dense wood as being the fastest precise way to keep something really sharp and not have to spend too much time fiddling with stones).

[miguel bernardo]

thanks again for the tips David. 8000 should be more than enough for now. i intend to use mainly quarter-sawn european spruce, so it´s not gooing to be an hard wood to deal with... i might try to find a good honing paste to see how it works out, never tried it before.

cheers,
Miguel.

[john brenton]

Dang David, is there anything you haven't tried? I'm in awe of your tool purchasing prowess. You're like an enciclopedic one man customer review.


Superstones are good straightforward easy to use stones that don't need soaking, and do well on common tool steels. they leave a nice bright polish and a sharp edge, and have a smooth feel like a good natural stone.

Choseras might be a little bit more of a specialty stone, but I haven't yet seen an artificial stone better than the Chosera 10k when it's soaked (in terms of feel and results). Different and less impressive stone if you just try to splash on it, at least what of mine I've used it. I use a shapton pro stones more often because of the convenience. I think the choseras are a bit of an indulgence, and each different one has a different reputation. I like the 400 chosera, though, regardless of the circumstances, and it's not too expensive. It's the best stone i've seen below 800 grit, but it may not be necessary for you to have a stone below 1000 grit.

Shapton pros are a good working stone - a 15k shapton isn't quite as nice as a soaked chosera, but more convenient on a whim, and plenty sharp for anything and then some, and very fast to use.

If you get into more exotic steels, the conversation is different, but there are good cheap and very effective ways to do those, too. You could have a very functional sharpening setup for high speed steels for about $40.

Nothing beats a good stone for feel, though.

[miguel bernardo]

OK, so to recap - and thanks again to all of you - from the info i got here i think i will go with shapton pros. i will get the 1000 stone (although there is also a 1200 grit stone available) and a 320 stone for coarser work. as for the 5000 stone, i´m still torned between the naniwa SS and the shapton pro.
i would also like to go with the chosera 400, but as stuart said, if they are rather fragile, need soaking (after all) and don´t stay as flat as shapton, i think thta i will - sadly - let them go.

once more, thank you all!
Miguel.

[George Beck]

I may have missed this discussion. I don't usually weigh in on these discussions as I feel woodworking is a personal journey and everyone has they own path. I have seen southeast asian kids using chisels made of old bar stock and achieving great results and I have seen guys using Hotley planes and also achieving great results. This is very much true of sharpening. My great uncle, a wonderful cabinet maker used a big whetstone wheel like Roy Underhill and two pocket Arkansas stones for 50 years. They looked terrible but they sure were sharp! I have chased Sharpening for the last 20 years and I think I have almost every stone and sure fire contraption out there. I started and used for years a hand crank grinder and two oil stones. I have a lap sharp and a Japanese round wheel water grinder, Naniwa stones, oil stones, Shapton stones, DMT stones and natural water-stones. I can say after all of this hoo ha that I have returned to a few swipes on a Baldor Grinder (western tools) and 3 stones 1000, 5000 and 15,000 Shapton Pro's flattened with a DMT diamond corse stone. Sharpening a Plane iron (unless damaged) takes about 7-10 minutes. From this I can say this,; You get your best edge, or at least I do, on the Shapton Pro Stones. The Naniwa superstones are too soft. The Chosera stones (I use for Japanese blades) can get out of flat very quickly, however they are much easier to flatten that the Shaptons. The Chosera 10,000 is a wonderful stone for Japanese blades and hand sharpening. Chosera's have a very nice feel more like a natural stone. However, if you use a jig, they may be too soft for the wheel. The Shaptons are harder.

In summation, The Shaptons Pros, from my experience will work best yeild the best results with the fewest stones. The Beston 500 grit and the Naniwa Chosera 600 are very nice corse stones. Also check out Chefs Knives to Go online. They have good prices on Bester, Naniwa, and shaptons.

Safe journey

George

[George Beck]

Oh, here is that link http://www.chefknivestogo.com/

I see they have Shapton two and three stone sets on sale and free shipping.

[David Weaver]

Dang David, is there anything you haven't tried? I'm in awe of your tool purchasing prowess. You're like an enciclopedic one man customer review.

I haven't tried any of stu's sigma stones nor any large sypdercos (though I have a couple of small spyderco sharpening thingies). I'm sure both are good, but I have other stones that are too similar. Oh, and no belgians - they are also expensive, and I can't see them being useful.

The only stones I wish I hadn't bought are all of the natural waterstones, because they're the most expensive, and most of them are inferior to synthetic stones, even some that were in the $200-$300 range (which is not that high for a natural stone, but you still expect something good). If I had just the one stone that came from alex gilmore, I could dump the rest and never really miss them. And I think I can admit that I just like it because it feels nice to use and it makes the bevel of a japanese tool look nice. It doesn't make a functionally sharper edge than green stuff on MDF.

The ones I have sold (and I have only sold ones I consider "good"), i've lost half the purchase price on. I've given a few away, but they would be summarized as "experimental" at best. The ones that aren't "good" are either not what they say they are (like stones that were called finish stones that are really so coarse as to be a step before finish), or they just aren't very good (i.e., fine cutting but so slow cutting that they are difficult to use, and will not cut anything but carbon steel to begin with).

( I did see on one experienced woodworker's site a comment along the lines of "woodworkers with one or two stones invariably have very sharp tools, and those with a lot of stones don't because they don't know how to sharpen". I thought that was kind of funny but mostly dumb. I haven't yet found a stone that's sold as a sharpening stone that I couldn't make a tool very sharp with, but the experimentation is more about speed and curiosity. It's nice to not dread sharpening, and it's nice for it to be as quick as it could possibly be with no compromise in the results. I could still be using my first king set and be fine, but I would much rather be using the stones that experimentation finds faster and finer).

[miguel bernardo]

ok, thanks once more (i really mean it, it´s been much helpful here). shaptons it will be.

cheers,
Miguel.