Despatches from China

[Rodne Gold]

As some of you know , I am on a trip to China to source and see the quality of various items that most of us laser engravers use or buy.
I have come to see and buy and visit factories that produce
Trophies , Metal cups , crystal awards , acrylic awards , medals , marble bases , wood shields and plaques , trophy trimming, fittings, laser engraving laminates , perspex sheets , Co2 lasers, Yag and fibre lasers and some creative art stuff like statues , ornate woodwork, blown Glass , leds , magnets and any other stuff I consider a good opportunity
I flew 15000 km to get here - a 24 hour trip including a stopover of 5 hours in Dubai (It's no shopping mecca , its pretty expensive)
I ,landed in Guangzhou at midnight so saw nothing of it and flew internally to the market city of Yiwu - local airline wasnt bad.
Let me tell you right now - China is not backward and cheap cheap quality is not the watchword here right now - perhaps a few years ago .. but not now!!
Anyway I landed in Yiwu which is the melting pot of the world for those wishing to buy just about anything under the sun. It is one HUGE wholesale markets with 10 of thousands of factories and other industries having permanent showrooms. Apart from the many many off market offices , there is a market/fair as well.
To describe this as a market is rediculous , it is a city within a city of 3-4 million people, there are 5 districts (huge buildings , bigger than 100 malls) each with 4 floors and on each floor you will find about 5-8000 manufacturers "showrooms" (they are small)
You can find anything here - from jewellery to rubber bands to whatever.
Anyway , I am spending a week here looking for trophies , acrylic , crystal , awards, creative arts etc - primarily for trophies
From Monday to Wed I have been visiting various factory showrooms of trophy factories and it has been an eye opener.
Metal cups: You get 3 classes , low quality , medium and high. Low quality is perfectly acceptable for the price , its actually pretty good for the price, medium quality is actually "exceptional" quality and high quality is not that much better than medium , but a lot more expensive.
Actually low quality is not the same type and range of medium and high , medium consists of high polish and very thick metal and plated items , high quality is also similar but over the top designs and thick gold or silver or polished stainless steel finishes.
The pricing is rediculously low for any trophy in $ terms , a 15" plastic trophy (a large cup with a lid) on a heavy plastic (filled with plaster of paris) base is under $2. a "low" quality metal bodied cup with a metal final and smaller plastic stem on a decent base , 20" high and really big is about $7-9. HUGE high quality trophies , gold plated , 30" high (massive cup type things) are around $60 (they would sell for at least 5x that)
PDU type figurines and wreaths of "ok" quality are 30-50c
Medals , 3" diameter , heavy (50 grams) and thick , with superb detail and HEAVY and beautifully polished plating (I have not seen such good quality before) , Round 70c
Crystal stuff abounds , also at rediculous prices , innovative designs , stuff I have never seen before , at prices like $5 for 10-12" examples, heavy stuff!!
Plastic components , like tubing , cups , pdu type stuff etc is so cheap that I can't even credit how it is made at those prices , I'm not really looking at that type of stuff as it's "old hat" and you can get better trophies and awards fully assembled for a little more.
I have visited around 15 trophy supply houses , who sell directly from factory and am suffering from product/information overload , the variety is so vast and the ranges so extensive , I don't know what to order or where to start placing one.
These places also stock acrylics, plaques from ordinary to extremely ornate , cast frames , trays , badge fittings and so on.
I have catalogues for most of these places and have taken a zillion pictures and inspected the items for flaws and for quality.
Most of the people manning the market/showrooms dont speak english , but the agent you appoint in China/Yiwu provides a translator and someone to show you around , find the places etc for $35 a day.
You have to have an agent , they pick you up from the airport , meet you at the hotel , translate , take you to the places and factories you need to see , help place orders , find the best prices , deal with the factories , do the quality control , disburse funds only if the factories deliver the right stuff , warehouse the various factories stuff as they deliver , see its the right stuff , pack the container/s and ship for you , for 3% of your order amount. They probably get kick backs from the factories and make up some money in other ways ..but they are essential. Most of the factories have high minimum order quantities , some as low as 12 pieces of one design and size to 100+ pieces and 500/1000 piece orders for stuff like figurines. You can buy from a reseller type agent at about 15-30%higher and order much lower quantities - like 1's
Yiwu itself is mental and mind boggling , it is packed with people , there is nothing to see and do apart from shop..it is a town of high rises , huge markets , and huge retail markets - like the night market which starts at 6pm and ends at 4 am , the biggest flea market you have ever seen and then x that by 100.....
Traffic is mental , traffic lights , pedestrian crossings , scooter drivers and other cars are ignored , its like one huge racetrack/bumper derby - no one indicates and ppl change lanes at will , there is a constant blare of hooters and despite about 100 near misses , I havent seen any accidents , normal people cannot drive there and crossing a road is taking your life in your hands. Taxis are cheap .. a 5 mile journey will cost you $2 or less.
Food at supermarkets is cheap too - a can of coke is 40c , I bought some stuff at a supermarket , snack type stuff (like twinkies) and a huge bag including 2 packs of 20's marlborough came to about $15. It must be said , the snacks especially the chocolate covered stuff wasnt the best tasting..ok , but not as rich or flavoursome as nice western snacks.
Ppl smoke anywhere and everywhere in China..
Here are some pics....

[Dan Hintz]

Many questions, Rodney, but I'll try to distill to the essentials, and you may not be able ot answer some until you start receiving goods:
1) You say the displayed stuff is of surprisingly good quality... will the delivered goods be of the same quality or will you be at the end of a bait and switch?
2) 3% sounds very fair for the agent's services... I'd call it almost unfair to the agent. A $5k order would net him a mere $150... quite a few US agents wouldn't even bother giving you the time of day for that. I wonder what extras they might throw in if you threw a little "bonus" their way from time to time...
3) Will the agents work in a similar fashion (and cost?) for one-time large equipment orders? If so, that may prove helpful on cutting down DOA equipment.
4) Does it make sense to start at one end of the market(s) and wander from showroom to showroom, or is it so jumbled that it's better to tell the agent what you're after and he takes you to the correct booth?
5) Any unique designs for awards not seen in the typical JDS/Marco/etc. catalogs? If so, do these companies offer catalogs/websites with images of their wares? Could be a useful source for the guys who want to offer more than just the standard fair but don't have artistic talent enough to come up with our own (<cough cough> Me <cough cough>).
6) Any list of what is being offered (in general terms)? Like shopping for tools, sometimes I don't know what I need until I see it.
7) For those of us who do not order in container quantities, how does that affect pricing, shipping times, etc.? Do the agents take that sort of thing into account, or do they generally only work with container-sized orders (even if it's small quantities from many many vendors)?
8) That's good for starters :)

[Larry Bratton]

That is AWESOME! (in the true sense of the word)
Rodney, thanks for thinking of all of us folks that will probably never get to see these sights. It brings home to me as to why the U.S. seems to be falling behind in this economic battle we are in. To my knowledge there are not any places like you describe in this country. There are of course trade shows and furniture markets and the like but not like this.

[Mike Null]

Larry

Markets do exist here for a number of commodities. Perhaps not as big as China but still sizable. The gift market is an example and there is one in NY, Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas, SF to name the ones which come to mind.

I think the big difference is that the ones Rodney is visiting are mostly mfrs exhibits where ours are more reps and dists. Our trade shows do have many mfrs and the housewares show is one of the big ones in the world as is the CES. (electronics)

Before I retired we used to source a number of items from Taiwan and Korea. WE found that we had to have somebody on site to maintain spec. I retired 15 years ago so those things may have changed.

[Larry Bratton]

"Anyway I landed in Yiwu which is the melting pot of the world for those wishing to buy just about anything under the sun. It is one HUGE wholesale markets with 10 of thousands of factories and other industries having permanent showrooms. Apart from the many many off market offices , there is a market/fair as well.
To describe this as a market is rediculous , it is a city within a city of 3-4 million people, there are 5 districts (huge buildings , bigger than 100 malls) each with 4 floors and on each floor you will find about 5-8000 manufacturers "showrooms" (they are small)"

Not as described here Mike.

[Dean Fowell]

Thanks Rodney,

Very good to hear some of the details. Have a safe trip.

[Ron Hartl]

Rodney-thanks for great thread, I appreciate your sharing this journey with us!

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Thank you for sharing this info with us and describing what you have seen. This is an experience very few of us on this forum will ever witness. For those of us who do not live in big cities .... wow. To imagine what you are looking at just standing on a street corner watching the traffic and life whiz by about you....

[Hilton Lister]

My thanks too Rodney. Your posts are always informative.
By the way, have you yet taken delivery of your chinese laser equipment? I have
been waiting eagerly for your thoughts on your intended purchases.

[Dee Gallo]

Hey, Rodney, that was such a great post! I felt overwhelmed just reading about what you saw, it must be intense being there in person. Like Mike said, those of us from tiny places would never see so much merchandise, so many people and traffic, such large scale living. Thanks for the glimpse... and commentary... very informative!

cheers, dee

[David Fairfield]

Pretty interesting. How did you find your agent, and where do you recommend one should start looking for an agent?

Dave

[Rodne Gold]

Dan , the final quality of what you get is fairly consistent with what you see.. China is business oriented these days and has high tech mnfgring processes.. yes you do have to keep an eye on quality , but your agent checks the quality when items are delivered. They don't do a bait and switch as that would be very counterproductive to doing business with the west or east. The chinese will manufacture to a price point , if you want to pay $1 instead of the quoted $1.10 , then you will get a decrease in quality of the $1 product. That seems to be the problem with "cheap chinese goods" , not the mnfgrs , but the buyers.
In terms of Agents , well Im a small player here , I intend to buy around $30-50k in awards , but Im pretty certain that 3% isnt all they will make off this , I too can't believe they will offer all those services for $1-1.5k.. I think they are getting kickbacks from the factory , shippers and govt subsidies. I use my own shippers in SA tho , and they are headed by a chinese guy who I have been dealing with for many years and he takes over as soon as the container reaches a port in China , so I never get shafted on the actual shipping.
Im not sure what the situation would be on a one time large equipment order - my shippers, not agents, have offices all over China and they have overseen the shippingof my lasers , which arrive in Cape town on the 19th of may , I am seeing the laser ppl on the 21/22nd of May , so if there are issues with my machines , I will be there to beat em up :) (I have a pal that has bought one of their machines setting em up and checking all the stuff is theree - but they sent documents and a few spares they didnt have in stock via TNT and it arrived in 3 days and the spares looked just fine quality to me..especially for the price) Hilton , I plan to document the whole laser saga really well , including a video tour of their factory etc.
The market is divided into sections , it took me over 2 days just to do the Stationery section (trophies for some reason fall into stationery) and you walk for miles to find the trophy shops inbetween the other mnfgrs shops, it would be impossible to wander the markets unless you had a month or 2 to spare and walked a marathon each day - you have to more or less know what you want here and have someone to guide you. I recon it would take a good 6 months to see ony a smallk part of what is on offer here. Factories from all over China use this as their showcases. there are also about 7 "smaller" markets , like the furniture market (which has only about 15 000 factories represented there)
There are tons of designs that I havent seen in any western catalogue , lots of catalogues available , you struggle to get a full price list of the whole catalogue as the general thing is that you mail em what you interested in and they quote - a lot of the factories there are geared to producing what YOU want as well , doing samples and making up tooling in days at low low cost for that. the factories will send ppl to come fetch you , think nothing of taking you on a 2 hr drive to em and then back , will wine you and dine you etc. They will think nothing of working a 15 hr day with you. (BTW there are not many ramshackle cars here - mostly quite new stuff and classy stuff - none of the "cheap" chinese cars we see at home , those they export :) )
You can order smaller orders from the myriad of resellers/tradng co's here in yiwu , but you will pay higher prices due to small quantities and shipping will be more expensive , time would probably be the same as a lot of co's use shippers that consolidate freight , butt sharingpart of a container is way more expensive - a 20ft container is $1500 to cape town , a 40ft double that , its probably $7-900 to the USA as more freight goes that way - but I don't know .

I am off to Beijing on Saturday , gonna see the great wall , forbidden city and meet the factory/supplier of laserable engraving laminates, acrylic sheeting , sublimation metal , mirrored acrylic etc - I have imported 700 odd sheets of laserable stuff and want to get their acrylic sheeting , but their MOQ (min order qty) of 5 tonnes is too big for me , so want to get it reduced to 2.5 tonnes and want to represent em in south africa for some of their products.
BTW those BIG trophies in the 1st pic are like $5-6 and the crystal awards around the same price.

[AL Ursich]

WOW what an adventure..... Any sign of 2 sided Gloss White Sublimation FRP in something thicker than we can get here at about 1/8 of and inch..... Just in case you happen to see some... I tried to get some here but no go...

Reminds me of my Navy days visiting 27 countries...

Have a Safe Trip.

AL

[Rodne Gold]

I will be seeing the Co that does subli metal in Beijing , considering I don't do sublimation , explain exactly what you need (when i did do sublimation , we coated our own stuff)
I visited the "creative arts" section today and it was an eye opener, extremely creative , some "furniture" caught my eye. These wood cabinets are priced at $13!!!!!!
Thinking of bringing some in , here's some pics of em
Also pics of what Yiwu looks loke thru my hotel window , cept its about 30x what you see... Scenic ..ain't it :)

[Dan Hintz]

BTW those BIG trophies in the 1st pic are like $5-6 and the crystal awards around the same price.
Yeah, those crystal awards look awfully familiar (JDS, among others) that are being sold here for ten times the price. If I ever get in a big order, I may have to skip the "local" guys...

[Mike Null]

There's no question that those prices are outstanding and if you are a large buyer or buying group (there is a closed group of larger engravers who buy from China) then it makes sense but you're implying that JDS is gouging us. First, their selling price is rarely 10 times their cost, and there are additional fees and duties to be paid plus shipping and from POE there's land transportation. In the case of JDS there are multiple shipping costs to break the goods to all their warehouses so you can have one or two day service. That doesn't begin to consider the cost of their investment in inventory, warehousing and people.

Rodney's example on magnets from another thread is as follows:


I got prices on the magnets and the bars , top quality magnets are 3.5c each and the bars are about 5c for both flat one and the one the magnets need to be glued into. prolly cost 20c-25c landed and glued....

I just bought a thousand from JDS at $0.25 each.

JDS also guarantees their goods which is probably not shared by the Chinese mfr.

[Dan Hintz]

Mike,

I never made such an implication, or if it came off that way it certainly wasn't my intent. I was trying to say that if a big order came in I would skip the middleman, something I did not realize how "easy" (if you can call it that) it was to do until now. When you consider Rodney's "local distributor" prices are usually much higher than ours in the US, his direct-ship price matching ours from distributors says a lot. If Rodney's comment is true about landed quality being as good as what's displayed, one could likely suffer some loss of material (breakage and such) and still make out like a bandit in the long run.

[Richard Rumancik]

Rodne's report from China has been really interesting. It is hard to understand how they are able to manufacture goods and sell at such low prices.

However, I really have some doubts that most members are in a position to buy direct from China. Rodne is buying $50K worth of stuff and he considers it small potatoes as far as the other players. I don't do trophies, but I doubt most members want to bring in even $5000 worth of stuff at a time. If your typical order to JDS (or whoever) is $1000, then I suggest that is where you should continue to buy. Rodne has spent some money up front with his trip and setting up credible contacts. If you just want to find someone on the Internet in China and send them some money, it's possible that the savings will vaporize (along with the ware that you ordered.) Don't forget that if you buy a year's supply of inventory that you need a good place to store it as well.

[Doug Griffith]

it's possible that the savings will vaporize (along with the ware that you ordered.)

On a similar note. I work with a company who thought they would do well by setting up a plant in Mexico. 6 months later and the equipment and tooling are nowhere to be found. Over a $million in value. The guy that orchestrated it was an employee from the states and is now long gone.

Security and trust have a high value in my book.

[Dan Hintz]

I work with a company who thought they would do well by setting up a plant in Mexico. 6 months later and the equipment and tooling are nowhere to be found. Over a $million in value. The guy that orchestrated it was an employee from the states and is now long gone.
This is why hit men exist ;)

[Rodne Gold]

Trust is a huge issue , that is why I have actually gone to china , to see and feel the goods and see the ppl. We dont have the same type of distributors like JDS here and those that do distribute stuff here are greedy and gouge us.
In respect of the Trophies/awards and medals ..a trip to china will cost $3k or less (hotels like $80 a night etc) and with a further 20-30k , you can set up a distributorship in the USA selling different stuff to anyone else and make a tidy profit doing so.
When in China or dealing with a china co , ask em for copies of their Business registration and Tax certs, if they don't have , dont deal with em. Heres a pic of Boxes inside that shop , they are like babushka boxes , a box within that box and another within that - price is $3.50

[Ross Moshinsky]

Not apples to apples comparison, but please check out the documentary "The Entrepreneur" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1437272/). Very interesting stuff about how the Chinese run their businesses.

My personal belief is there is money to be made with importing goods from China but I also know it's a risky business where you can easily end up losing a lot of money.

[Rodne Gold]

Well, I arrived in Beijing on Saturday evening and went straight to my hotel , the Park Plaza , right in the centre of Beijing. Beijing is mind boggling , 25 million people and High rises , skyscrapers , apartment blocks for many many kilometers , you can drive 15km's and it still lookls like you are in the centre of any major city ..my Hotel is 15 minutes walk from the forbidden city and Tianimin sq (not worth a visit, its just an empty square)
On Sunday I took a tour of the forbidden city , the temple of heaven and the summer palace , on the way stopped off at a silk emporium and pearl house (both rip off tourist traps) to see the processes and obviously to "BUY"..(no one bought a thing as it was gouge city), Went to an "authentic" (read cr--py tourist trap) chinese restaurant where we had worse food than I can get from the local chinese take away at home.
There were round about 50 000 people at the forbidden city , sooo crowded , all chinese with the merest sprinkling of westerners - tons of ppl hawking you cheap rubbish souveneirs at hugely inflated prices and ripping you off by giving you fake money as change.
As an example for being ripped off if you arent sharp , I took a moped type scooter rickshaw thing to the Wangfujian market (big shopping street) and the guy quoted me 3 yuan for the trip (40c) , when we got there he insisted it was 300 Yuan ($40) for a 1 mile ride , I got REALLY pissed when he became abusive to me and isnsited that was what he said it was and I took him by the collar into a dept store there and was shouting to call the police , he VERY quickly backed down.
Oddly enough , near the Forbidden city , there were about 8 or 10 trophy shops , crammed to the rafters with crystal etc , selling retail , but they were in real run down shack type shops - was very surreal to see this - I wanted to go back there and stop in at a few of them , but I have run out of time.
Nothing really cheap to buy in Beijing unless you go to dodgy places , my hotel is round the corner from the rolls royce, aston martin, lamborghini and bugatti showrooms and there is gucci etc to shop at (not fake gucci) , the wangfujian street market also has very westernised and expensive stores.

nyway , today I went to see a supplier of laser and rotary engraving laminates , cast and extruded acrylic , laser rubber, sublimation metals , mirror acrylic and anodised aluminum plate (like the anacoil trophy plates). To my surprise , the quality was the BEST I have ever seen in ALL the product I saw, yes there was a "b" grade which wasnt as good (albeit acceptable) but the price difference between A grade and B is less than 10% , not at ALL worth even considering B grade.

To give some examples of pricing , a 1200 x 600 (4ft x 2ft) sheet of laser engraving lams is $8-10, depending on colour and finish , 3mm (1/8") clear cast acrylic runs to $11 a sq meter (around $1 a sq ft), I wasnt interested in laser rubber or the anodised sheeting .

The mirror acrylic comes in thicknesses from 1.5mm to 6mm (25mm per inch) and comes in some most amazing colours , not just gold , silver and bronze , about 20 different colours. It can be lasered , laser cut , routered , rotary engraved , vacuum formed , bent and glued
Pricing is very good , I am interested in the 2mm thickness (nice and thin) and 3mm (1/8th ")
Pricing for a 1.2m x 1.8m sheet (4'x 6.2ft) sheet in 2mm is around $28 or just over $1 per sq ft , 3mm is $42 a sheet and that is $1.70 a sq ft. I can see some serious applicatons for that.
Finally the subli metal - the quality is just amazing!!!!
Thicknesses vary from 0.3mm to 0.65mm (0.012" to 0.026"- mostly aluminum core/base but some come in steel as well if you want) Some also come double sided
Sheet sizes come in 24" x 12" to 48" x 24" , colours and finishes are amazing , pearlised silver , brushed silver , white , pearlised white , pearlised gold , brushed gold , shiny gold , titanium colours , some rose/copper type colours.
But to give some examples of pricing , a 0.02" (0.45mm) thickness of brushed gold in a 4ft x 2ft sheet is $7 or round 80c a sq ft..most of the stuff is that price ..not sure whether that is a good price , but it seems cheap.. Im maybe going to get back into subli...

Anyway after that meeting we went for lunch , and what a lunch it was , mountains of stuff , peking duck , 3 varieties of it , prawns , pork, dumplings , soup , tea, a variety of amazing vegetables, fish , tempura , rice , pancakes etc , a feast fit for a king and so tasty it was to drool over and the whole meal for 3 came to $40!!!!

After lunch , they offered to take me to the great wall of China - and considering I couldnt get there yesterday , I said yes . I was no trouble for them to drive 2 hours to get there and 2 hours back..!!! I went to the real authentic great wall , not the "western tourist" pristinely restored great wall part - it was amazing , tried to climb to the highest part of the wall in china , but the gradient was way too steep , some steps but some real steep ramp parts..no westerners or tour busses there - just chinese folk.

Once again , tons of stalls selling t- shirts and jade bracelets and other great wall momentos. I bought a TON of stuff for my wife and kid there - but you got to haggle.. and haggling in china takes a skill you soon learn.
They start off at 85 Yuan (about $11 for a t shirt) , you offer them 5 yuan - they say 50 yuan , you offer 7 , they say 35 , you offer 10 ($1.50) and they say no , you walk away and they come back with an offer of "10 is ok" - you buy 4 T-shirts and then say 30 yuan for all 4 , they beg and plead and shake head , you walk away and they come back with 30 yuan for all 4 ($4)
Then they see you pull out a 100 yuan note and then the price goes up to 60 yuan for all 4 , you walk away , they come back with the 4 t-shirts and 70 Yuan change for your 100 Yuan.
So called "jade" bracelets (they are some stone , not plastic , doubt if they real jade) come in at 50c a bracelet using that same haggling technique. Anyway , my suppliers picked me up at 10 am , and brought me back to my hotel at 7 pm , all in all a fruitful day.

I'm leaving early tommorow for Jinan and Liaocheng city , where I am spending 2 days seeing the laser and CnC router factory - will report more extensively on that , as its an area of great interest to us all.
Regards from China

[Dee Gallo]

Trust is a huge issue , that is why I have actually gone to china , to see and feel the goods and see the ppl. We dont have the same type of distributors like JDS here and those that do distribute stuff here are greedy and gouge us.
In respect of the Trophies/awards and medals ..a trip to china will cost $3k or less (hotels like $80 a night etc) and with a further 20-30k , you can set up a distributorship in the USA selling different stuff to anyone else and make a tidy profit doing so.
When in China or dealing with a china co , ask em for copies of their Business registration and Tax certs, if they don't have , dont deal with em. Heres a pic of Boxes inside that shop , they are like babushka boxes , a box within that box and another within that - price is $3.50

OMG - those boxes are great!

[Rodne Gold]

Now the real meaty part - the laser factory. I arrived in Jinan from Beijing and was collected at the airport by Blanca (sales) and a driver of Liaocheng Shenhui laser R&D and we proceeded to take a 100 mile journey from jinan to Liaocheng city , a super toll road high way passing thru rural china , a thin smog of pollution was evident all the way
Suddenly out of the blue , there was Liocheng city, a town in the middle of nowhere that is mainly factories.. we had taken an off ramp from the super highway , but it was like surreal in L/city , the roads are 5 -8 lane super wide boulevards each way , vast expanses of road with no cars and a few pedestrians , it was like they have built the roads for a city 3 x the size of beijing , but the city never came about. There is only one hotel in the town , the something hot springs , its like a cross between some bates motel and a hotel from the 50's that has never been renovated, with a seedy but probably grand entrance (was grand 40 yrs ago )
To cut a long story short , this is a disgusting hotel , dirty rooms , a bathroom from hell , bed as hard as a wooden plank, no aircon , a dining room that serves the most disgusting food . Lunch was a plate of steamed broccoli , tasteless noodles in dishwater and the beef was strips of tripe , I nearly puked. I have chained my door tonite - scared of getting robbed and more scared of the obvious prostitute roaming the dark corridors looking for customers.. luckily im here one night.

Shenhui laser is a BIG operation, 4 huge aircraft hanger sized factory areas and a big office block/showroom. No it's not like a high tech ubermodern car manufacturing concern with automated robotic welding and a moving production line etc, but it's not garden shed manufacturing concern

200 employees , R&D dept , sales staff , QC (each machine is tested for a day before shipping , however alignment can go out due to shipping as the tubes are removed)
They weld and make and spray all their own frames , casework , Use massive Rofin sinar lasers to cut stuff, do all their own wiring harnesses and control software as well as making all the gantrys, slides , bearings themselves, they buy in sources and some mainboards as well as steppers.
They offer ordinary glass tubes with a 3 month warrantee , Reci beijing glass tubes with an 8000 hr life and 10 month warrantee and a chinese metal type tube as well as mainstream tubes - they do not do servo motors on lasers - Yet!!

I saw the new version of their software , support for corel , acad , illustrator with time estimating functions , job notes and even an optional nesting package.
They make twin tubed double head lasers and lasers that fire from the bottom and the top (for double sided die boards) they offer from a 200x 300mm (crappy) machine for chinese seals right thru to a massive 2m x 1.4m enclosed machine. Optical recognition as well
They do Co2 galvos from 50w with either a glass tube or a metal chinese one (round $6000 all in) and they have glavo yags starting at 50w , fibre lasers in a 10w and 20w model. I saw these in action , the 20w fibre is blindingly fast , 3 x faster than the galvo yags and holds a line width that is almost invisible to the naked eye
All these galvo machines are VERY well made and have a seriously good 4th axis available. There were about 30-50 of each of the galvo models being built and about the same ready for shipping
Musta been about 500 C02 lasers of all sizes waiting for shipping and about the same being built. They are busy developing a 600w YAG with a galvo head on a gantry for metal cutting and marking , can do a 2.5 x 1.25m sheet
Saw it cutting 8mm steel and 3mm stainless with great results
They also developing a water jet cutter.
They also do CnC routers , offering servo motor High frquency spindles monster 3ton wight machines to a very cute 300x 200 3d machine (they are building 500 of them ,an order from Saudi arabia) .. they were pretty honest with me , saying that they have only been doing CnC's for 3 years and theirs werent as good as some other manufactureres in the area. These are built like tanks.
They do a 4 head stone carving cnC router too , 3d , output was good.
Their head tech honcho is VERY clued up , talks damn good engrish too and can understand pretty much anything highly technocal you throw at him.
They will build to a price point if you wish , if you want real cheap , you will NOT get premium parts , but the difference in price is never worth using the el cheapo options. They keep massive stocks of spares as well , mirrors and lenses are either imported or local , depends what you want to pay.
They had a young indian guy there that they were training as a techy , his dad is the Indian distributor of their machines , been doing business with em for 4 years and has sent his son there for 2 weeks to learn all the machines. He speaks excellent english and was very complimentary about the Co.
I took a ton of pics and 1080p vids of their operation. I was , to say the least , mightily impressed!!! Also seriously reassured about the machines that I bought as to quality and backup.
Heres a few Pics to whet the appetitie , Internet is real slow in China , so uploading high def vids and pics is a no no.
Tommorow Im off to the factory to go thru the new software and to get explanations on what every setting and feature does. Off after that to Xiamen to see suppliers of wood plaques , shields and bases as well as see a Co about resin figurines and marble/granit bases and other stone and resin products , back home after that.

[Dan Hintz]

Rodney,

We'll need to have a little phone conversation when you get back. ;)

Can someone say "group buy"? :D

[Jiten Patel]

Prices sound incredible!!!

What an incredible place hey. When my wife and I were on our world tour, we spend 5 weeks in mainland China. If you can get past the spitting, staring and touching, it is an amazing place. Did you do the Jinsaling part of the wall Rodney? We did a 10km hike which was tough, bits of the walls falling apart as you climb.

Now the galvos look appealing. I would want a 100w with a bespoke delivery system (autofeed). Is that something they can do?

[Rodne Gold]

Dan, they will happily sell you a single machine , you can specify your build , you cant have servos or metal type tubes on the normal non galvo C02's tho.
Jiten , their prices are incredible , a 50w YAG galvo goes for $10k. the 20w Fibre is 20k, I think they said their bigger marking fields are 200mm x 200mm. To be frank , I dont think they have the capacity to develop and auto feed , but Im going back there , so will ask..they are inventive people.
I think the Fibre , for your application , is the way to go. Its a nice small machine and needs no specialised chiller - 3 year warrantee too.
I hate the hawking and spitting up of phlegm , its disgusting - they spit anywhere. When I got to this provincial hotel ,the whole staff paraded out to gawk at me , like they never seen a westerner before :)
I have a partial amputation of one of my feet and had 2 neck operations , a 10km hike would be beyond me, was enough for me to stand on , see and walk a bit of the wall. Here's a pic of the wall I saw and went on.

[Jiten Patel]

Fiber hey, not really seen a fibre in action or know much about them...... are they any good for paper/card? 200x200 would just about do for us. 10k sounds so cheap. Add another 5k on for shipping, we are talking maybe £8000 all in. Bloody hell! Could have had three for the price of mine. What sort of life do they have on them and warranty etc?

Yes the spitting gets a bit much. We were sitting in a really nice restaurant when a really pretty lady, brought up something aweful and discharged it next to me. I was like HELLLLLO! Have you had your face stroked yet. We had it loads....like I had painted my skin colour on!!!

Wall looks incredible, but IT HAS STAIRS. That's cheating. Lol. We had no stairs, just piles of rubble. Here is pics of us.....

[Dan Hintz]

Jit,

(Good to put a face to a name :)) You say the 200x200 field would likely work for you... what are you working with now? That's a bit shy of 8"x8", and I can't imagine an entire wedding invitation fitting into that space... are you doing one half and then flipping around?




Rodney,

Any chance they have something with a slightly bigger field? Say 250x250, but 300x300 would be even better. After seeing Jit's previous pics, I'm seriously considering getting one.

[Jiten Patel]

Dan,

Dont believe the face, I was blackened by 5 months of 40 degree heat by that point of the trip. lol.

At the moment I am running two lens'. one is a 400mm lens which gives me a marking field of 280mmx280mm and the new 250mm lens gives one of 175mmx175mm. I use the new one for cards which are 150x150 and all the smaller things like place cards and Reply cards. I get a little more details and speed when using it but still troubleshooting with Trotec as I am not getting the results I was expecting. They seem to think something with the focus. Need to play around with it for a day or so to nail it, but at the moment, we have order coming out of our ears!

If you look at my designs Dan, usually its just the front on the invitation that is cut, or a smart corner patch, which in reality is only tiny. Some of our most popular designs only take up about 50mmx50mm of card real estate.

[Albert Nix]

Great post Rodne. I can't imagine tring navigate a place like that. Makes my feet, knees and back hurt just thinking about it.
WOW!!. Thanks for the post.

[Rodne Gold]

jiten , I got a price on a 80w Reci tube Glavo , $6500 with everything , they do do RF tube galvos , but not cheap... I saw the 80w cut paper (c02) and it was seriously fast - you could buy 3 - the spot size is slightly bigger than the RF tube , but it's perfectly serviceable , serious filligree and some unbelievably thin bridges etc. Dan , as the marking field goes bigger , the spot size does too - they can do a 300 x 300.
They suggested a sort of folded over conveyor belt as an auto feed (======) as the conveyor rotates the paper and the cut out bits drop off and you can load the next piece , they said you could probably use a stepper to drive it and link it to a paper feeder , ie the belt rotates , stops , you laser , it rotates , the piece and dross drop off and then it stops for the next piece.
they also offer a CCD system for the big co2's , where the ccd reads shapes and crop marks and then cuts around them , like if you print on acrylic , the ccd will pick up the images and allow you to cut around them. Costs around $2k extra.
That small mini cnc machine , does 3d and comes with software (which they admit is a copy), controller box and a 800w (1 hp) 0-24000 rpm spindle - $2k.

[Rodne Gold]

I actually spent about 3 hours at Shenhui today , I went thru the software item by item , learning exactly what everything does and also spent some time on technical aspects of the machines (troubleshooting) , their tech guy is seriously clued up. The labels on their software need to be rewritten as does the manual - I will do that , some of the choices in their driver are not that understandable and the manul is too Chingrish and does not explain stuff that well. Just to give you some examples of what their new software can do
1) Multiple array cutting with only one item being drawn , you set the spacing and quantity
2) Start points , top left , middle left , right left , middle left , centre , middle right bottom left ,bottom middle , bottom right ie
- - -
- - -
- - -
3) time estimation and job notes
4) Simulation of the job on screen
5) Ordering items by object or layer
6) Offsets to compensate for kerf width
7) nesting
8) User definable paths that the head will follow when going from one item to another
9) user defineable start points for vectoring and direction
10) different optimisation technioques
11) elimination of overlapping lines
12) joining multiple line type drawings (Ie if the drawing comes in as segments , the laser will treat the segments as a single entity)
13) scan optimisation in terms of forward and reverse lines lining up
14) User defineable non cutting speeds, ramps , acceleration , dwell
15) Shoulder type engraving , automatic bass relief as well
16) the laser will automatically cut a square that bounds all entities
17) the laser will do a dry run of a square that bounds all entities
18) Perforation cutting with user defineable perf per inch , length of perfs and well for perfs
19) 2 type of rotary attachment settings , easy to use.
20) Work from ACAD, Corel , Illustrator and import embrodery machine files too
21) Has its own design paackage too - real easy and powerful
22) Allow selection of entites to process , or all entities etc

[Belinda Barfield]

Fascinating thread Rodney. Thanks for taking the time to share with us.

[Greg Bednar]

Rodney - It is all VERY impressive! Thank you very much for sharing your travels and your observations.

[Jiten Patel]

Rodney,

Thank you for the info. That is incredible and something I will be looking into. Just out of curiosity, did you manage to get a video of it in action? I know it's too big to post up, but when you get back home, maybe drop it in an email?

Honestly speaking, I hate you though, as you have me salivating and all excited like a little child now. Expansion is going to be a lot easier and cheaper. At that sort of cost, if it runs for a year or two, I would be happy, any more would be a bonus!

[Rodne Gold]

I didnt take a vid of the co2 laser in action but took a vid of the yag , a very short vid cos it was all over before it began.....BZZT and it was done.
Yag and Co2 the same speed , the fibre 2x as fast and incredibly thin linewidth. My attitude at the pricinng is that a year or 2 is fine and anything over is a bonus - if it gets difficult to fix , well I'll just dunp it and buy another..not like a $25k machine. The vids are too big to post , 1080p high definition , will send via mail,

[Jiten Patel]

Think it is the right attitude. 25k is a lot of money and if my Trotec which ran in at around 30k broke down, I would be extremly agree. If it doesnt last me at least 10 years, I will be knocking on Austria's door!!!

But for $6k, you would make your money back with a month or two. Incredible. I look forward to seeing the video.

Are fiber lasers good for cutting organics like paper/card? What are they typically used for?

[Rodne Gold]

The fibre has the same wavelength as the YAG , just a different and more efficient delivery type system (as far as I can tell)
I think you should stick to co2 - I did see the Fibre cut the sort of work you do on VERY thin anodised aluminium....

[Scott Shepherd]

Rodney, thanks for posting your adventures through China. It's very interesting to read. I would be curious on your take, while there, on just how they make things complete for less than anyone else in the world can buy just the material. It's great that they sell a box for $1, but when it's got wood, hinges, a liner, and a faux finish on it, just how's that possible to sell for $1?

What's your take on that after seeing it in person?

[Rodne Gold]

Economies of scale, local production , no middle men , low cost of living , strong work ethic and productivity , no environmental concerns , massive govt support/subsidisation for industry, pals with everyone , no wars draining the coffers and an artifically low currency.

[Dan Hintz]

Steve,

We ship our scrap metal to them at rock bottom prices rather than process it here. I've never bothered to look into the economics of why this is the case. Our idea of (ready-to-use) material cost is significantly higher than theirs.

[Doug Griffith]

The artifically low currency is the main one. It's also something the rest of the world should do something about.

Thanks Rodne for the great updates. That list of software features is something other laser manufactures should take note of.

[Scott Challoner]

The fibre has the same wavelength as the YAG , just a different and more efficient delivery type system (as far as I can tell)
I think you should stick to co2 - I did see the Fibre cut the sort of work you do on VERY thin anodised aluminium....

Would either of these cut polyimide? I would be happy to spend that much for something that could cut polyimide without char.

[Rodne Gold]

Im not so sure its mainly the low currency , I think its really a combination of all the things, the currency is not held so low as to make some of the prices as low as they are , some pricing is 1/4 that of equivalent western products ...
there is no sense of oppression or lack of freedom here , granted , some things are goverened (like how many kids you can have) m but the average citizen has plenty "freedoms" , they can drive like lunatics without being locked up , smoke all over the place , live where they want etc. Their system seems to work well for them and their culture and our traditional view of democracy or the "best" culture etc might not.
Anyway , I am In xiamen right now , saw a woodwork supplier yestrerday..The make amazing products , all MDF based but all exposed surfaces and edges of bases are veneered , the finishes are superb and most of theur stuff is indistinguishable from real solid wood. Pricing is also very good , a 7" x 5" 3/4" thick plaque in a roseweood , cherry or mahogany is 80c a piece (however the minimum order quantity is 500 of a style/size which is high - I have negotiated it down to 200) , they supply JDS as far as I can gather. they actually have a wonderful range , initially I went there to buy for my own use , but due to the MOQ's , I might consider distributing if there is a strong market for stuff like that in South Africa. the range is extensive to say the least - bases , plaques , shields , glass trophy holders , boxes , certificate holders and so on.
I am off today to see a marble/granite/resinstone trophybase manufacturer and a resin figurine manufacturer.
Last night , at the Xiamen Ramada (a very nice hotel) I went for their chinese buffet supper ($15 - eat all you can and drink as muck keg beer as you can) , about 200 different dishes , from sushi and sashimi to amazing deserts.
Some items I saw but refused to try. Fried chicken feet , deep fried salmon heads , fried whole terrapins, braised tripe and various other offals, rabbit brains, sea slug etc. Was actually a feast there with a ton of stuff you could eat - all for $15 -and at hotels prices are about 3x street prices. My hotel has 100's of small shops scattered around it , taking this opportunity to buy trinkets , gifts , clothers , shoes , bags etc for my wife and kid back home.

[Jiten Patel]

Sounds a treat. I managed to stomach some snake on a stick out there. Was tempted to try the live scorpion on a stick, they just deep fry it alive, add salt and pepper and voila, but I bottled it. All sorts of bugs as snacks, pretty scary stuff!!!

[Dan Hintz]

Would either of these cut polyimide? I would be happy to spend that much for something that could cut polyimide without char.
YAG/fiber wavelengths are ideal for polyimide... they're used in the electronics industry to cut flexible circuits (which are made mostly from polyimide). It's one of the few plastics guys like us would use that a fiber wavelength is better at. If you intend to cut a lot of it, consider having them tweak the wavelength specifically for polyimide (if memory serves, it's in the mid-300 nm range).

[Rodne Gold]

Saw my last supplier today , the marble block man and he does resin casting as well, not too sure if it was a worthwhile trip but we shall see , I got very few prices. However did see the stone capital of the world , a huge city that just processes stone from all over the world and china , huge lorrys carting off 10 ton stone and marble blocks to be made into tiles , cladding etc. The guy took me first to the tresin factory - its retty basic , silicone moulds are used and its all hand poured , degassed and then demoulded , goes for hand painting..prices are cheap and quality is actually surprisingly good , some pics attached. There are literally many 1000's of stone processing factories , the air is thick with stone dust all over the city , everything is coated in dust.. huge warehouses with cut slabs of everytype of granite , marble , whatever you can imagine. I am looking for quite big quantities of marble bases , at least 25000 pieces of black 2.3" x2.3" x 1" , drilled and countersunk , polished 5 surfaces...I need price of 20-30c each to make it worthwhile for me. Lets see what they come up with...lots of other sizes as well , but smaller qtys. We went for lunch att some tacky cheaply decorated restaurant , with swinging garden type seats , the young 22 year old very enthusiastic , but unfortunately ugly translator was sighing about how romantic it was and how she would like her boyfriend to take her on a date there..I was thinking if I were a girl and my boyfreind thought that the last word in romance , he would bemy ex shortly.
Drank interminable cups of chinese tea , served in a thimble type cup , its insipid pale green water with no tea flavour , eventually got tired of it and told them I wasnt a big tea drinker , but my wife was , wherapon they went out and bought me this HUGE pack of tea and a serving kit - the tea actually looks like marijuana - hope the customs dont lock me up :)
Coming back to this stone city , it is truly unbelievable , the stone carving is amazing , I saw 2 huge chines dragon type lions on pedastels , they must have been 5-6ft high and about 4 ft square round the base - carved in an amazing marble with beautiful detail , weight is 10 000 lbs each , price is $1500 a pop , I am sorely tempted to buy these for my house entrance - not too sure how I will get them here .....
At some of the prices for the cladding and tiles , I am also sorely tempted to start importing that stuff too...so many opportunities in china , so little money.
In Xaimin , where my hotel is , there are 1000;s of small shops , selling all sorts of stuff , but importantly , shoes (well to my wife and kid) I bought 6 pairs of killer type shoes , really nice fancy stylish stuff for $80 for al 6 pairs (leather mostly)
I leave for Guangzhou on the morrow and am spending sunday there , having lunch with a guy that imports and sources all types of sublimatable items (mugs etc) ,not to do business , but just to chat and hopefully to go to the electronics market there , I am lookinfg for high end Chinese valve based hifi for myself , will see whatever else there is to be seen.
First pic is a very nice plaque , under $1 - think its 8" x 10"
2nd pic is the "high tech" casting plant
3rd pic is the apinting dept
4th pic is finished producs , all well under $2, min order qty is 300
5th pic is a very small warehouse of cut and polished peces , it really is small compared to the gargantuan others I saw , the size of a city block
6th pic is a multibladed saw that cuts the blocks into slices , its really big
7th pic is a carved turtle , $500 , its pretty big.

[Scott Challoner]

YAG/fiber wavelengths are ideal for polyimide... they're used in the electronics industry to cut flexible circuits (which are made mostly from polyimide). It's one of the few plastics guys like us would use that a fiber wavelength is better at. If you intend to cut a lot of it, consider having them tweak the wavelength specifically for polyimide (if memory serves, it's in the mid-300 nm range).

That's what I wanted to hear Dan. Thanks. Now to find a US distributer.

[Dan Hintz]

Now to find a US distributer.
Coherent sells a wide range of frequency-converter fibers and diode packs... I'd probably start with them.

Expect to pay serious money, though...

[Rodne Gold]

Finally back home, tons of work to do. I will post more full sized pics and HD vids on a site a bit later this week. I will also start another thread detailing unpacking , construction and settting up our 2 lasers , with lots of pics etc.

[Frank Corker]

Rodney thanks for the whole update it has been quite facinating reading.

[Mike Chance in Iowa]

Thank you for sharing this adventure with us. Simply amazing to read.

[Rangarajan Saravana kumar]

Thanks a lot Rodney,

Like a fish swimming in pool, excellent narration as if we were in China....

Regards,
Saravana kumar

[Rodne Gold]

At the final analysis , the trip was very fruitful , both in seeing the products and quality and meeting the suppliers. Apart from that , I saw many many opportunities in items unrelated to my reasons for going , if I had more time and a LOT more money to spend , I would branch into these , maybe next year ?:)
At the end of it all , I am going to import a 40ft container of trophies , crystal . medals, figurines , wreaths and other awards from the trophy factories

I had already ordered 650 sheets of various laser engraving laminates from the Beijing suppliers , but am placing an order for 2.5 tonnes of Acrylic sheeting and a small trial order of 150 sheets (1220 x 1820) of various coloured 1.5mm thick mirrored acrylic to act as cladding on my custom award and to make small jewellery items and promo items to sell. They have 15 colours or so , really nice stuff , its extruded tho , so reverse engraving needs colour filling to look good.

I am ordering a Galvo laser from the laser ppl and will be ordering more lasers from them as needed.

The stone place has quoted me on marble bases and they are not any cheaper than my European suppliers and I feel that their quality is not as good , so I wont be changing suppliers right now , even tho my Euro suppliers DO get their stuff from China
I can also order smaller quantities from them and they have a bigger variety of colours.

Even tho the woodwork guys were extremely well priced and had exceptional quality , they too had very high MOQ's , 1000 per item. I would want 3 sizes of plaques in 4 designs , 3 sizes of shields in 3 designs , 4 sizes of bases in 4 designs , that would come to 36 "items" and that is 36 000 pieces , way more than I can possibly sell or use ..even if the MOQ had to drop to 250-500 , it's still way too much. The Resin figurines I might do something with, but some of the trophy factory suppliers also sell em , smaller MOQ's than the 300 or so my suppliuers want and a bigger variety , although at a slightly higher price

So in essence the last leg of my trip in Xiamen was interesting but not that fruitful in terms of buying.

The trip itself , with all airtickets , hotels , spending money came to around $5000 for the 2 weeks.
I would strongly suggest , if you had the cash and are looking for really good opportunities , to go over there and see for yourself.

[Andrea Weissenseel]

Thank's a lot Rodney, for sharing that wonderfull experience. Reading your updates is almost as exiting as being there :)

[Rodne Gold]

Well , just to put you all in the picture re my imports
My 5 tons of acrylic sheeting and mirror acrylic arrived 18 days ago , everything there , quality superb , we only imported clear in 3mm , 5mm and 8mm and black in 3 and 5 mm , thats about all we really use big qtys of , landed here at 1/2 local prices , enough for me for a year + , not going to wholesale as I cant make enough profit doing so. The Mirror hasnt been used much as its really too busy to be fiddling around with new designs etc.
Engraving lams I brought in are as good as Rowmark or IPI and a shed load (1/5th of the price) Cheaper... we been using it big time and I have supplied one or 2 other folk with it , comments are all positive. We are VERY happy with quality...

The trophies landed here around 3 weeks ago , I prepared storage space for the stock but SEVERELY underestimated how much is in a full 41 ft container , the weight was over 10 tons and there were 465 mostly massive cartons. Currently we are working in a warren of small alleyways in my factory/workshop , huge stacks of cartons all over... gotta sell it quick!!!!
EVERYTHING I ordered was delivered and the quality once again , is surprisingly good. I have some cheap items and some top quality stuff , the cheap stuff is well , "cheap" , the quality is acceptable , however at the price , the quality is sort of voerlook as it is exceptional value for money.
A 18" cup like this sells for $25....at that amt , my customers arent fussy. The medals I brought in (in excess of 70 000 , 2.2 tons) just blow anything out the water re their pricing and quality. The medal pictured here , 50mm diameter , sells for $1.50 including a centre and ribbon. I am almost all sold out of some of the smaller cheaper stuff I brought in ($5-15) and I can see myself placing a top up order fairly soon.
You really don't have to buy the qty's that I have , some items like acrylic sheeting and engraving lams have high Minimum order qtys , but the trophy guys will take small orders , I did discover that there is a bugbear to importing these into the USA , there is some law about what chemicals etc are used for plating and mnfgr an the cheap trophies do not conform (AZO and ROHS) , its , IMO, a sort of "protectionism"
At the end of it all , I have saved a ton of money by importing direct , the downside is that I have had to basically pay upfront for a years stock which hurts cashflow initially, the extra profit will more than make up

[Uros Sovilj]

Hi

If it's not buissiness secret can you share a link of sulpyers that you bought from.

regards Uros

[Jim Good]

Rodney, Did you specify how you wanted everything packed? I know if you aren't specific you may have some damaged boxes. It'll look like some exotic pets from Ohio wrestled around with the boxes! Also, how far away from your location did your cargo arrive once it hit port in Africa? What fraction of total shipping cost was it for delivery from your port to your physical location? Sometimes I think it is more costly to pay for ground freight once my cargo reaches the States that from the port in China to the States. Thanks! Jim

[Rodne Gold]

Packing was quite good , acrylic sheets came in custom wood pallets/boxes
Cheaper trophys : Each tophy comes in its own thin corrugated box (trophys plastic bagged inside) and then packed into cartons , x amt of boxes per carton. So far we have only one damaged award , ears broken off ..
Crystals and plaques in very nice silk lined display boxes , more expensive trophy/awards were individually or multiply crated , ie massive stuff , one per crate , medium size 4-6 per crate.
Medals , each in its own plastic baggy and wrapped in tissue paper inside that. Damages were minimal as the container was packed well and there was maybe 2-3 m3 to spare in a 68 m3.
I am about 10km from the docks where the container lands , cost to get stuff to me from the ship is not that material. My shipping costs totalled about $6500 all in. this included delivery charges from Yiwu to ningbo , 41 ft container , maritime insurance , all port fees , all agents/clearing/forwarding fees.
Land transport in china is expensive , part of my cost - $850 was to get the container 100km from yiwu to Ningbo in china...:

[Jim Good]

Wow, 10km from your local port. That is awesome. My shipment lands in LA, California and clears customs either in LA or in Madison, Alabama. Either way, the shipping is expensive relative to the cost of the goods. I'm also not a full container, I'm LCL. I'm small beans!

$5000 for a couple of weeks is a great price. I'd love to spend some time over there. It would be nice to meet my manufacturer over there.

Thanks for all the information. What a great adventure.

Jim

[Rodne Gold]

Basically , if you want to go over , you need a ticket to wherever you are going to base yourself in China (shenzen , Guangzhou, shanghai?)and then you use Ctrip to book all internal flights and hotels. In generall , air tickets are in the $100-$150 bracket one way wherever you go and a 4-5 star hotel is about $100 a night including breakfast. That gets you a VERY nice double room (prices are per room , not per person)
Ctrip, the chines booking agency , is amazing , you book online and just present your passport at the airport. I had NO issues at all with em and in fact their service was better than ANY western airline/booking agent. I had a few flights I wanted to change , was done over the phone , all credits to my CC were done VERY quickly.
Took 2 days to get my visa which was a 2 entry one , and another 2 days to get my new visa which is a year unlimited entry.
It's worth a trip just to go have a look , once you there , you will be astounded and kick yourself for not having gone over before. the opportunities are endless and you are spoilt for choice. On average , the price of stuff you buy is anything from 1/2 to 1/5th of the local price , some stuff even cheaper.
The medals I bought are either on parity with the metal price or below it!!!!

There is a guy from Ghana that I met there , he brings in all his stuff from china and he doesnt buy by the containerload at all , lots of small stuff and he uses an agent to consolidate it all. Goes over 2x a year.
Lots of the african ppl go over , buy the fake nikes and oakleys etc , bundle it all up and then take it back with em as excess baggage at $200 per 30kg (70 odd lbs) - they stand at checkin with like 5 airport trollies either with bales or 30 or 40 cheap chinese tog/duffelbags filled with their goods. One of the reasons they do this , is that shipping from any port to central africa is both extremely risky and VERY expensive. Therse guys go back and forth up to 6x a year.
Part container is bl--dy expensive , my acrylic , which was 8 m3 cost me in excess of $1500 for just freight!!!!! I could have got a whole 20 ft container for $1600!!!!
Next small stuff and top up orders I will consolidate and get my own container , fill it up with other stuff like some furniture , giftware , bling etc etc.
I am going to import a sublimation and photo crystal setup next year , the equipment is rediculously cheap , a epson 290 with a continuous ink system and 6 litres of ink is about $300 , a GOOD a3 heat press , digital etc is round $110 , mug presses are $70.....UV exposure unit , $100 and so on.

[Jim Good]

It definitely makes a difference if you can fill up a container versus a less than full container. The savings you get from the products more than pay for the trip over there. I would be like a kid in a candy store! I'd love to make it over there. Thanks again for sharing your experience! Jim