How do I stain Ash?

[Dan Chouinard]

Making a bathroom vanity with Ash. Customer wants it stained dark, 2 parts ebony 1 part dark walnut blend (minwax). Trial today on mdf core ash plywood resulted in a greenish color. Why is this and what is the remedy?
Thanks

[Steve Schoene]

Don't know precisely, but then again I don't use Minwax stains on anything. An aniline dye would be my first step in achieving a dark finish. Then I would follow with a pigment only stain with the color just a bit darker than the dyed wood. There are other alternatives. If an even color (that still reveals the texture of the grain) is wanted I would use oil based paint in the desired shade. Thin about 20% and apply. A third alternative, one I haven't tried, is to us Jeff Jewitt's Java stain, one of his own formula. See http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/dyestains.htm at the bottom of the page.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks for the reply Steve,
I have very minimal finish experience, never worked with dye. How tricky would that be for a newbie to handle? What would you put on top of the pigmented stain to protect the piece and give it durability in a bathroom environment?

[Scott Holmes]

Ash usually stains very well. Dye then pigment only stain or a gel stain is a good approach.

Best varnish for a bathroom is Waterlox Original in either satin or gloss.

NOTE: Gloss highlights every flaw satin will hide most flaws.

[Dan Chouinard]

Thanks Scott,
Can you recommend some literature that would shed some light regarding dyeing?

[Dan Chouinard]

Just went to the Waterlox site. They say it is a tung oil finish. You called it a varnish. Whats the difference?
Thank you.

[glenn bradley]

I too was disappointed when I tried some Dark Mission Brown on ash and it turned green. I assume the amount of yellow in ash is the culprit. I ended up with Olympic oil based Early American doctored up with Transtint Brown Mahogany to warm it up and just a touch of the Transtint Dark Mission Brown.

[Steve Schoene]

They write a bit ambiquously on the Waterlox web pages. It is a varnish that was manufactured using tung oil as an ingredient. Tung oil seems to be a magic term to marketing people, but pure tung oil is very hard to use--you need to wait several days between each coat for example, and when finished it is only a bit more water resistant than boiled linseed oil. Consequently Tung Oil Finish is never pure tung oil unless it says so specifically. And Waterlox is definately varnish. Formby's Tung Oil Finish is also a varnish--but it's based around soya oil. If there is any tung oil it is minescule. Minwax Tung Oil Finish is a mix of oil and varnish, also with little if any tung oil as an ingredient. Why is this not a legal deception. The product they are selling is named Finishand the words Tung Oil are just adjectives specifying what the finish is supposed to look like--in the manufactures opinion.

[Scott Holmes]

To add to what Steve said...

Varnish made from tung oil is better at waterproofing and blocking water vapor than vanish made from linseed oil or soya oil.
tHis is really the only claim for fame for tung oil vs linseed oil. Marketing and hype have made it "special".

Pure oil as a finish; my bet is boiled linseed oil will out perform 100% tung oil in every application, e.g. wooden garden tool handles. My reason metal driers in the BLO will cure it better than pure tung oil.

Formby's and Minwax Tung Oil finishes have tung oil on the label only; none, zero, zip in the container.

[Bob Wingard]

Get used to the idea of using dyes ... you'll never regret the transition. Dyes are not at all difficult to use .. only different. Most stains contain some form of "binder". That's what keeps the large chunks of pigment stuck to and in the pores of your wood. Once you apply a coat of this type of finish, you will notice that additional coats do little or nothing to enhance the color. That is due to the binder sealing the surface to a large extent.

Dyes, on the other hand, are either a) extremely finely ground pigments or b) true solubles. Either way, their carrier (usually water/alcohol/ethylene glycol) does nothing to seal the wood, so you can sneak up on a color's intensity, or change it drastically with additional coats and/or colors. Look up COLOR WHEEL or buy one and briefly study the effects of one primary color on top of another. With dyes, you can "build" the color you want by enhancing or reducing the complementary colors. It sounds like a lot of hocus pocus, but, once you acquire the most basic understanding of how dyes interact, you will be amazed at what you can accomplish, colorwise. Dyes have the added quality of coloring the wood without muddying or obscuring the grain. With a small colloection of powdered or liquid dyes, you will never again be at the mercy of any of the big box stores when you're trying to match "Golden Oak" or "Mission Brown" ... you will be able to mix up whatever suits your needs, and be sure of it, because you can modify it at will if your first attempt isn't right on the money. Dyes can be overlaid and changed right up till they are topcoated.

[charlie spencer]

Don't know precisely, but then again I don't use Minwax stains on anything. An aniline dye would be my first step in achieving a dark finish. Then I would follow with a pigment only stain with the color just a bit darker than the dyed wood. There are other alternatives. If an even color (that still reveals the texture of the grain) is wanted I would use oil based paint in the desired shade. Thin about 20% and apply. A third alternative, one I haven't tried, is to us Jeff Jewitt's Java stain, one of his own formula. See http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/dyestains.htm at the bottom of the page.

what is an example of pigment only stain?

[Scott Holmes]

Charlie,

Without naming names, there are many stains that are oil soluable dyes and pigment; others stains are pigment only. Most gel stains are what I would call "easy to obtain" pigment only stains. Although I suspect some of them contain dyes as well. Pigment sits on top of the wood, albeit in the nooks and crannies. That is the object of a pigment only stain, to color the wood by leaving pigment behind, mostly in the grain and sanding scratches. These stains can be left on the surface a bit thicker than your OTC stains that should be wiped dry after 5 -15 minutes. Pigment only stains are much better as glaze coats than thin body stains.

[charlie spencer]

thanks , you are a terrific resource

[Dan Chouinard]

experimented with gel stains on scrap ash plywood. i bought java from woodcraft and my dad had 3 others gels on hand. mixed up some nice options to show the customer. turns out she likes green! i hated it at first but by the time it was completed it actually looked really cool.

i liked working with gel.

someone had suggested dying 1st with pigment only stain on top of that. what would be the point of covering up the dye color with stain?

[Steve Schoene]

The dye would get the wood dark. The pigment stain wouldn't completely cover the dye just add some depth and complexity to the finish. You could also limit the degree to which the pigment would "take" by using a wash coat over the dye before using the pigment stain.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The dye would get the wood dark. The pigment stain wouldn't completely cover the dye just add some depth and complexity to the finish. You could also limit the degree to which the pigment would "take" by using a wash coat over the dye before using the pigment stain.

Too funny.....I am right in the middle of exactly this.....not ash - QSWO: dye, then 3/4#-1# extra/ultra/super-duper pale dewaxed shellac, then gel stain - wiped cross-grain until rag comes up clean. Fills the pores [exactly as noted by Scott above], and "pops" the ray flecks.

Drawer fronts, approx 30 minutes after applying + wiping gel stain:

194718

[Chris Fournier]

Ash dyes well but is a bit of a pain because the pores resist taking on the dye so you have the added step of glazing to fill the pores with pigment. With aniline, dye it is no big deal to get ash to jet black.

As for naming the "best" varnish for a bathroom, this is a bit pointless. Unless you have done destructive testing on all the types and manufacturers offerings out there you are merely spouting opinion, personal bias or letting us know what you have on your finishing room shelf. Quite frankly any conversion varnish will outperform the varnish that Scott has recommended, perhaps this is why industry uses it?

The attached image is ash, dyed and glazed.

[Scott Holmes]

Chris,

"Quite frankly any conversion varnish will outperform the varnish that Scott has recommended, perhaps this is why industry uses it?"

Industry probably likes the fact that CV completely cures in hours; NOT WEEKS! I cannot imagine a factory with a warehouse full of dining tables waiting a month to cure; before they can be buffed, packed and shipped. Perhaps that is the reason they use CV.

Yes CONVERSION varnish is much more durable. One of the best finishes out there.

I was mearly suggesting a readily available VARNISH.

[Chris Fournier]

Scott, my concern with your recommendation of a varnish to the OP is the manner in which you did it. I threw the CV option out there because contrary to your unqualified recommendation it is superior in this application (on many fronts I should add) and it is quite readily available as well.

I was objecting to your "Brand X is the best varnish for this application" because it is not a supportable position and comes across as a bit too "expert" and not enough "factual". Think "adspeak". My guess is that you like and use the varnish that you recommended because it is one of the few brands that you source locally and happen to prefer. that's great and would have been worth mentioning. But to call Brand X the best is not helpful nor likely true and certainly not based on any rigourous testing.

I agree with your observations about CV and industry.

[Steve Schoene]

Conversion varnish is absolutely the wrong recommendation for the OP. He tells us, in his second post that he is a newby, with minimal finish experience. The chances that he has the spray facilities to handle flammable and toxic finishes is zero. The only thing out there that would be reasonable for him to use is an oil based varnish. Varnishes formulated around tung oil are particularly desirable where moisture is an issue. Hence, Scotts recommendation. Yes, for industry conversion varnish may be desirable, but for people in home shops it just isn't feasible. Conversion varnish really is a pro-only finish.

[Chris Fournier]

Conversion varnish is absolutely the wrong recommendation for the OP. He tells us, in his second post that he is a newby, with minimal finish experience. The chances that he has the spray facilities to handle flammable and toxic finishes is zero. The only thing out there that would be reasonable for him to use is an oil based varnish. Varnishes formulated around tung oil are particularly desirable where moisture is an issue. Hence, Scotts recommendation. Yes, for industry conversion varnish may be desirable, but for people in home shops it just isn't feasible. Conversion varnish really is a pro-only finish.

I did not recommend conversion varnish to the OP Steve. I was merely commenting on Scott's "Brand X is best for bathroom vanities" recommendation. I used CV as a serious hobbiest for years. Of course I invested in a proper spray booth.