A disston 12 I was watching on an auction site

[lowell holmes]

It went for $432.

I had idle thoughts about buying a D12.

You could buy two Wenzloff saws for not much more than that new.

Gee!

[john brenton]

Oh God. Was it new old stock? Or with some kind of "ultra rare" medallion?

Wow.


It went for $432.

I had idle thoughts about buying a D12.

You could buy two Wenzloff saws for not much more than that new.

Gee!

[David Weaver]

I just looked that up out of curiosity.

It's a tooth pattern that brings a lot of money, relative old with the tasteful wheat on it, full plate, and exceptionally clean.

Not what you would look for as a user saw.

I have three of them. I got all three from dealers, and paid $65 for two and $55 for one. They are 90% as good as those saws, but two of them are "dark" (without pitting) and the third, well, I don't know why it was as cheap as it was.

Ebay is not the place to go for clean #12s.

All of that said, they are not the only London pattern ( or whatever you would call it when the tote is off the back of the saw instead of set in ) saws out there. A good #7, a good spear and jackson, etc are all just as good in use - especially well filed. I have a spear and jackson saw similar pattern to that #12 you referenced, 12 tpi, long saw (26"), nice machined medallion, and it was $17 plus shipping on ebay. It's a pearl to use, but I did have to blow a few files on it working the frown out of it and cutting new teeth. Just landed a Groves rip saw from FTJ, very clean, just as nice to use as a #12, even if a little heavier (nib, stamped name in plate, etc) for $35.

There are all kinds of great user saws out there that you can find if you keep your eyes open - and you don't have to go to flea markets to find them, you just have to know what you're looking for. Quite often the "greatest ever" thing mentioned online is so blown out of proportion cost wise that it becomes the "poorest value", especially for users. In fact, I can't think of anything mentioned on a blog that has gone to nosebleed prices that's really that great compared to an affordable alternative.

I'll bet there are a lot of clean and very expensive miter boxes sitting around not getting much use.

[john brenton]

Now that you've said that, you'll never find another old Spear and Jackson without having to compete with bidders going at it with 6d 7hrs to go. haha.

[David Weaver]

Safe to say it and another 16" arrow straight back saw (that was about $20) were both good deals - at least for the type of folks like me who don't get out much and depend on internet sniping for most tools. Both with the old hand-done tasteful handles (somewhat common looking lamb's tongue, but still good), and both with split nuts.

I'm done buying saws, so I can talk up things a little bit - I think somewhere along the line I missed the part where I had enough saws already and ended up with twice as many as that.

The great door-opener with saws is being able to sharpen a saw and recognize what would keep you from being able to do that effectively or efficiently (i.e, tooth lines that are just in awful shape on saws that will never be worth much, or pitting on crosscut saws, etc), that's it.

The 12s and a lot of the old saws are nice with their taper, they cut with little set in dry wood (arguably so do any tapered saws, though), but the chance is they're going to have more set than you want when you get them, anyway, so you won't get that benefit right away. And sometimes, the older saws with a little less taper and that saw with some authority because of being kind of front heavy are nice saws to use, anyway, and cut just as fast.

[Tony Shea]

I am just amazed everyday I decide to go to ebay and look for tools that I've read about somewhere or just killing time checking out LN, LV, BC, etc tools. I really don't understand why or how people are so willing to pay what they do over there for items that get a bit of recognition by the Schwarz and the likes. Although it has inspired me to set up selling accounts to cash in on the rampant spending. I have yet to post my first item but have plenty waiting for their new homes. And it's also nice to know that my LN tools are basically just a good investment that I can almost get 100% of what I paid depending on how old they are.

I agree with David 100% about there being other saws out there that perform as good as a nice #12 user. I have a great resource locally called the Tool Barn that I've picked most of my vintage user saws from. My favorite being a Simonds #5 Blue Ribbon. Just an amazing saw that I paid $17 for. But also have a Disston #7, D7, D8 that perform great after some tlc and filing.

194099194100194101194102

[john brenton]

I've never gotten on the saw kick, thank God. I pick up back saws and occasionally keep one, and buy popular large models when I can, but only for resale. I don't enjoy sawing....at all, and getting a top quality bandsaw is all I want. That being said, I am getting a ton of mileage out of my larger bow saws. I like being able to rip without using the sawing bench or leaning over.

[Jim Matthews]

$400 for a handsaw?

Not even painted with a barnyard scene?
I'm digging my twenny-dalla Sandvik more and more...

God must feel sorry for some people, just look who He gives all the money to!

[george wilson]

There's a Disston 12 for sale for $625.00 on Ebay. Someone needs to learn the true meaning of "pristine" though. the blade is nice,but NOT pristine. Nor is the owner's name punched into the handle with dots a PRISTINE feature.

I'm thinking more about selling my #12 so I can buy a Ferrari.:) Nah,though,it's not pristine,either,but it is nice.

[David Weaver]

I pick up back saws and occasionally keep one, and buy popular large models when I can, but only for resale.

If I ran into a #12 like the one in that auction, I would flip it in a second, too. It would be a nice saw to have, I guess, but I'd rather have the money. Any sharp saw with some taper would do just as well in the cut.

[David Weaver]

There's a Disston 12 for sale for $625.00 on Ebay.

There are so many listings like that on ebay that it makes it a hassle to go through and put together a good search. That one has been on there for what seems like eons. Ever since ebay started offering free listing, it's just become polluted with BIN stuff at goofy prices and people with false BIN or Best Offer. There seems to be a new school of thought with pricing such that folks feel like if they want $50 for something that should be $25, they'll start it out at $100 and see if they can get someone to feel like they got a deal by getting it back down to $50.

When I was buying saws, I set up a custom search and took out all of the sellers who had high prices on BIN saws, looked for auctions ending during the week and used esnipe. I probably halved (or less) the price I paid for saws using that, and I didn't have to pay any attention and I didn't have to look at any of the listings from the jerky sellers who pollute ebay with scads of overpriced listings.

[john brenton]

Although these yahoos make it suck to be a buyer, it's awesome to be a seller. They make $80 for a beat up D12 look like a steal. I had a very imperfect scraper plane go for something like $120 within hours of posting. I need to get back on the hunt...if only I could get a jump on what they'll be raving about in FWW and get a chance to hoard up before it hits the press.

[george wilson]

There was a show on about an ancient Greek math whiz who somehow predicted that there would be a bumper crop of olives forthcoming. He bought up ALL the olive presses,so everyone had to pay him to get their olives made into oil.

If you could do the same thing with tools,John,you could score a minor money haul(compared to the olive press story.)

[David Weaver]

If you do what George says, you'd have to change your last name to ...

... you can guess.

Maybe you could set up an ebay ID and call yourself "2LWhale"

[Jim Neeley]

That or 2L-12Step!! :-)

[john brenton]

What would be sad is if it was a creeker and he was going to share the gloat here. "hey guys, look at this ((reads this thread)) uhhhh, nevermind. Ill just crawl into a hole now...with my 500 dollar saw and Lie Nielson boxes."

[george wilson]

If anyone here wants to give me $500 for my #12,I promise to not make fun of him.

[David Keller NC]

There are several reasons for Disston #12s going for several hundred dollars on fleabay. Some of it is indeed the ignorance of buyers.

But not all. The US dollar is very, very cheap relative to other currencies, so what seems extravagant to us may not be to a buyer in France. Many of those countries also levy extraordinarily high import duties on new goods, yet impose no taxes on second-hand items. That's one of the reasons for L-N tools going for more than the new price on the bay.

Moreover, many of the folks paying $350-$400 for a #12 in 95%+ condition are collectors. To a collector, the kinds of things that don't bother users, like owner's stamps, shortened and re-shaped horns, refinished handles, or faint etches are deal-breakers, and depress the value of a saw radically.

Also, collectors in general are not interested in the kinds of Disstons that one can pick up for $50 or less at the flea market. Those are generally not the saws from the golden age of Disston, and are typified by the era of saws that Tony posted pics of earlier in the thread. That might not matter to a user, particularly one that's willing to re-shape the tote with a rasp to a more pleasing form.

That doesn't mean that one can't luck into a pre 1917 #12 that's never been rusty and has an untouched and unrefinished tote at the flea market for much, much less than what the saw would sell for on fleabay, the major tool auctions, or from a dealer, but that price doesn't really reflect what the saw is worth, either.

One calibration worth looking at are the saws for sale at Pete Tarran's site. You'll notice that the post 1917 Disstons sell for roughly 1/2 to 1/3 or a golden-age saw in nice shape, and even these are usually less than what a collector wants (and is willing to pay a lot for). And Pete generally can't keep his saws in stock (though he's an expert sharpener, so that adds to the appeal).

[David Weaver]

I think the places like pete tarrans site are examples of buyers who are into the premium pricing model.

Here are saws I have, i think representative of what you can get as users. 3 12s, all pre 1917, all purchased from dealers for $55-$65 relatively recently (eddie jones and walt quadrato). I did have to sharpen them (well, i haven't done the middle one yet, despite the teeth looking coarse and dull, they still cut unexpectedly well) and there is no visible etch on the one in the middle, but they all have unrefinished totes, and the top one has a clear etch and the bottom readable.

And while lots of discoloration, no significant rust damage in terms of affecting use (even the dark black marks on the top saw are discoloration, you can see the evidence of the surface rust on it by the etch, but it is very light). This is the type of saw an internet buyer should be looking for as a user, and I think what should be expected for price. It might take a bit of time to find one or two of them, but you're going to have them for a long time.

Also attached is a picture of the $35 groves saw, as received from FTJ's newsletter sale (even sharp) and the $12 S&J saw (it does have a busted top horn), which I did a functional cleaning to. I'm not really into cleaning a saw hard for looks, it doesn't make it work better.

Not sure why the groves teeth look funny where it transitions from light to dark on the saw plate from the reflection of the overhead height. Whoever had the saw was particular - despite the way the light is reflected, it has very very little set, just next to binding and cuts like an arrow. I'm kind of partial to the looks of the english saws, I think they look better than the 12s. I like the stamp better than the etch, the split nuts and sunken medallion, the orientation of the tote and the style of the totes. I guess i could say I like them better than the 12s, that'd be fair. Especially when you consider what you can get them for.

These saws all have issues that would make them uncollectable, I suppose, but they are very fit users and where people who have a budget should be looking - admittedly I don't use the middle #12 crosscut, I thought I would like to have a 7 point crosscut saw around for thicker material, it is still a good user saw and would be great freshly sharpened.

[David Weaver]

By the way, does anyone know why the color of the etch on the 12s is so light? Has it been rubbed off? Both of them are a bit light.

i suppose after looking at the etch picture of mine and looking at the one that went for bucks on ebay, to say it is 90% as good is off the mark a good bit - trying to take a picture of something really does put it in perspective a little (condition) and that one that was on ebay was really exceptional.

[David Keller NC]

By the way, does anyone know why the color of the etch on the 12s is so light? Has it been rubbed off? Both of them are a bit light.

i suppose after looking at the etch picture of mine and looking at the one that went for bucks on ebay, to say it is 90% as good is off the mark a good bit - trying to take a picture of something really does put it in perspective a little (condition) and that one that was on ebay was really exceptional.

David - There's a possibility that your saws have been cleaned with a rust-dissolving agent; I have a 16" #12 that has a similar extremely light etch - I suspect that it was de-rusted with naval jelly (phosphoric acid). Most of the common de-rustification (is that a word? :)) agents will remove the dark color that makes an etch really visible. I suspect that's why the usual recommendation for saws is scraping with mineral spirits & a razor blade.

[David Weaver]

I think you're probably right, as the less visible etch is still black. I had assumed (without looking at both saws) that the 12s may have had a lighter etch because I've seen several like that, but thinking back now, it's likely they were just all saws that were cleaned/derustified wrong. I've never cleaned a saw plate with anything other than a razor blade and a rigid block. I wish people would put away the phosphoric acid (or any acid) on anything that matters. I've used it myself, but never on something that wasn't a basket case or on something that matters.

[john brenton]

Those are all sweet lookin saws David. Agreed on the English saws...and all English tools for that matter. The shape, the transfer or stamp, the style...sometimes I'm tempted to sell all my non-english tools and get an all English set-up going on. It's pure vanity, but they are pleasing to the eye.

[george wilson]

I like the top saw the best. How old do you think it is? Certainly my 2 groves back saws have been very pleasing to my eyes. They had someone who knew how to design!

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure how old it is, it's hard to tell because it's very clean, the only rust on it to speak of is the speck of pitting at the teeth that you can see in the picture. The other side is just as clean, and the handle's got some staining and a bit of a chip a the top horn that you can see, but the whole thing is in good shape. If I ever build a panel saw, I'll copy the tote like a brainless drone - I like it in better than the 12 handles, though both are nice enough.

The #12 handles look to me like an effort at making a blingy handle that could still be made mostly by operators at machines (which disston's lit shows), and I think I'd like them better if they were more like the old #7 handles that had a lamb's tongue and no wheat, which itself is just something to collect dirt. At least they're apple, i guess.

Whoever had the groves saw before me sharpened the teeth basically in two steps (almost like a primary and secondary), there's a little bit of positive hook filed into them at an angle steeper than the file would've bedded against the backs of the teeth, and they are very shallow for the tooth count. Maybe the hook was just a quick resharpening. I almost filed it without trying it to make the teeth zero hook and full depth, assuming it would be grabby or not work that well as it's probaby 50% of the way to dull looking at the tooth tips, but I put it to wood and it cuts really well, clean, and like I mentioned, with almost no set if it starts on the line, it really behaves. It would bind right away in softwood, but I don't use much softwood of any thickness.

Whoever had the spear and jackson saw had filed fleam at 45 degrees and had sharpened it into a bit of a frown - some of the teeth were probably as big as 10tpi and some as small as 14tpi. I probably spent about 3 hours getting it filed right, getting the frown out and "moving the little teeth toward the big teeth", and even at that, there's so many teeth that i got distracted in the middle and got the fleam backwards on the teeth for a couple of inches (which doesn't make a difference in the cut with teeth that small - it cuts well and cleanly). If I had a toother with a 12tpi carrier bar, it would've been a quick job, and I might've had enough wits left to file it right all the way down and not booger up the fleam. It's old enough that it's got hard and soft spots. No file ruiner hard spots, and no garlick soft spots, but noticeable variation.

[george wilson]

Got some of the teeth filed backwards?? Are you trying to copy the famous"push me pull you saw",David?:) Don't try to get out of it. I KNOW you are secretly jealous of that saw.(No one knows what we are talking about!!)

[David Weaver]

no way!

I turned the plate around in a zona pull saw one time to try to get it to cut, and it had significant hook and wouldn't cut on the push - just dug in and hung up. So I filed it and made it about 5 degree negative rake, and then when I tried to use it on the pull again later, it cut really slow on the pull and gave the user the urge to push down on the spine to get it to cut faster - that can't be a good habit.

Better to get fleam mixed up than rake! The saw will still cut well with the fleam backwards on a few teeth, but it would feel like a dead spot if the teeth were turned around.

[george wilson]

Didn't take you long to see my post!!! Of course,just kidding about the fleam. I realize you didn't file the teeth backwards.

[john brenton]

I know what you're talking about...you just can't leave that poor guy alone:D. He hasn't been around in a while...I wonder why.


Got some of the teeth filed backwards?? Are you trying to copy the famous"push me pull you saw",David?:) Don't try to get out of it. I KNOW you are secretly jealous of that saw.(No one knows what we are talking about!!)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I recently picked up four old saws in an old toolbox I sort of got talked into buying at a yard sale. They might have been nice once; if nothing else, I'll get some good filing practice (it's been a long time) before I tackle that nicer No. 12 I picked up. They all have either almost no set, or a ridiculous amount of set. The teeth on one look like they've been used as a hacksaw, and someones sharpened them akin to what I'm imagining you guys are alluding to - negative rake to point where it's the same coming as going.

I picked up the box for the auger bits, planes, square, dividers and marking gear. The saws are turning into an exercise in frustration - the ones with good blades have bad handles (one that looks like bugs got it) and the ones with good handles have awful blades! (only one kinked) Still seeing what I can make of it all. Realizing how good a deal that 12 dollar No. 12 was.

[george wilson]

Let me clarify: I was referring to the great big 2 man crosscut saw used by the rural trades at Williamsburg,which has peg teeth that cut poorly in both directions. David and I have kidded about it privately. Each tooth is about 1" wide.

[David Weaver]

negative rake to point where it's the same coming as going.

I picked up the box for the auger bits, planes, square, dividers and marking gear. The saws are turning into an exercise in frustration - the ones with good blades have bad handles (one that looks like bugs got it) and the ones with good handles have awful blades! (only one kinked) Still seeing what I can make of it all. Realizing how good a deal that 12 dollar No. 12 was.

Yeah, I don't like negative rake greater than 15% for anything (specifically crosscutting - it's nice to have almost no rake on rip saws, the more you use saws, the less rake you want on rip, maybe with the exception of dovetail saws where a little rake can make for easier starting and you're not cutting that much to begin with).

If you keep up with it, you'll find saws that are cheap and don't require too much, but you will often find ones like you're mentioning, where there is several hours of work getting the plate clean and doing a good filing job on what may have been jackolantern teeth. Common saws with bad handles are a hassle, because they'll never be worth the trouble it takes to make an entire new handle.

Saws, more so than planes, seem to reward patient looking, and you can do an awful lot with one good crosscut in 5-6ppi and one good rip in 8-10ppi, so there isn't much rush to add on others.

[David Weaver]

Let me clarify: I was referring to the great big 2 man crosscut saw used by the rural trades at Williamsburg,which has peg teeth that cut poorly in both directions. David and I have kidded about it privately. Each tooth is about 1" wide.

Those log saws are the only ones I find commonly around here. Even my relatives had them (and they had almost nothing "extra" that they didn't need in terms of tools) where they heated with wood and had lots of kids to use axes and hand saws. I've never been tempted to buy one. As poor as they were, as soon as chainsaws had been around long enough to find a used one for cheap (the dangerous heavy old magnesium saws with no kickback protection and a geared sprocket), they abandoned those saws.

[george wilson]

They are still made in Germany,which is where Wmsbg. was able to find them. With the German heritage in Pa.,I suppose they are found.

[David Weaver]

They are still made in Germany,which is where Wmsbg. was able to find them. With the German heritage in Pa.,I suppose they are found.

They are in every antique shop in droves. Sometimes painted, sometimes not. Usually disston, sometimes others.

Those and bucksaws (at least that's what we called them - the frame saws like the guys in little house and the prairie could be seen using). When I was a kid in the 70s and 80s, a lot of people had those buck saws hanging in their houses.

The pa germans around here (my relatives included) did a lot of work by hand long after other people stopped doing it - lots of skull numbing things, and they never really clung on to anything nostalgically when something just as cheap but faster came along (i.e., they didn't take care of the old tools, etc, once they had been replaced). They came from poor roots in germany and the german area of switzerland, so they spent just about all of their time worrying about money, and never spent a nickel to keep up anything that was no longer for productive use. They didn't have nice things, and even as the country got modernized and they got more comfortable, they still never did want nice things - they already had their brains trained.

Like I said, my dad's family had no money - 9 kids and one income (court clerk, too, not a big income), and they bought chainsaws. If they bought them, then you know you're wasting your time using a log saw anywhere that you can use a chainsaw. 6 of those kids were boys, and they could've made those kids use log saws all they wanted if they'd have thought they were any good.

[george wilson]

The flea markets in Pa. have been great,because it seems like no one ever threw anything away. At least they used to be great before Ebay.

[David Weaver]

If they were like a lot of the farmers, they either put old stuff in the attic or threw it in a machine shed. Being from farmers, our old stuff went into a dirt floor machine shed or a barn. That stuff never fared well - if you could ever recognize that there was something under a tent of spider webs.

People who were in the trades must've done a better job of taking care of everything. The flea markets in PA have pretty much been liquidated of anything good, at least the ones I've been to. There are a few antique shops that have decent booths in them, but they look like they're decent booths because they're full of tools that are too expensive to ever sell. There is one guy along route 30 between gettysburg and chambersburg who has a lot of stuff, but a serious user is likely to have most of it. Still refreshing to go to his stand, though, because he's got a lot of tools, he manages to find old stuff and he's reasonable. Only person I've ever seen who had a bunch of gimlet brace bits, and all for $1 or $2.

[george wilson]

I had gone there at least 2 times a Summer in the 70's and 80's. Last Summer,I took some friends there,and bought nearly nothing. There just wasn't anything I wanted. Been kicking myself for passing up a Disston thumbhole in decent shape for $12.00.

[Mark Wyatt]

Only person I've ever seen who had a bunch of gimlet brace bits, and all for $1 or $2.

I recently learned of this wonderful tool! Stumbled onto a bunch of them at a flea market. Fun, fun, fun to use! Fast and clean small holes. Now, I need a tutorial on how to sharpen them.

[David Weaver]

Good luck on that. I usually just try to buy them sharp. They are prohibitive to buy on the internet because of most sellers' shipping costs unless you find a really big bunch of them, but when I buy them locally, there are often plenty that are basket cases and totally incapable of cutting anything.

[David Keller NC]

I recently learned of this wonderful tool! Stumbled onto a bunch of them at a flea market. Fun, fun, fun to use! Fast and clean small holes. Now, I need a tutorial on how to sharpen them.

Mark - I've been successful at sharpening these with one of sharpening devices for my carving tools - the smallest size DMT diamond cone. The small one allows getting into the inside twist edge of the bit, and they come out quite sharp.

[george wilson]

David,have you worn the diamonds right off of your diamond cone? most likely not.

[Mark Wyatt]

David, thanks for the tip. I don't have the small sharpening cones, but I've rarely found a sharpening stone to be a bad investment.

[David Keller NC]

David,have you worn the diamonds right off of your diamond cone? most likely not.

George - no, these cones are pretty tough. That might have something to do with how I use them. Typically, it's just to shape the inside bevel on straight carving gouges (so they can be used upside down). That bevel isn't very wide - perhaps a 32nd or less. Once I've established that bevel on a new tool, it gets touched up with 8000 grit japanese waterstone slips and/or dowel strops. So I don't use these cones all that much, but when I need them, they're the only tool that I have that will do the job. Sharpening gimlet bits is a good example - I'm not sure how I'd get into the inside flutes otherwise (perhaps with a bit of rolled up sandpaper, but usually that's not stiff enough to do the job).

[george wilson]

There is a member here who will not use diamonds at all. I'ts no use trying to persuade him.