My First Mortises

[Joe A Faulkner]

I am in the process of building an outfeed table for my TS. I'm using some materials I have on hand for this - including some old 4x4 yellow pine for the legs. One day, I plan to build a work bench, so I thought I'd get some practice with M&T joinery using hand tools. I'm curious, how long does it take you seasoned Neanders to chop a 3/4" wide x 3 1/2" long, by 2 1/2" deep mortise in a softwood like yellow pine? I'm enjoying the process, but am somewhat discouraged by progress. I'm planning 2x6 stretchers at the top and bottom, running between all of the posts.

I have some decent chisels that are nice and sharp. I'm using a 1/2" mortise chisel, and bench chisels of various sizes for cleaning up the corners and ends.

At this rate, it seems like it will take me a month to chop 16 mortises for what I thought was a simple projet.

[Zahid Naqvi]

I'm not really an experienced neander by any stretch. But despite looking simple M&T joins take a lot of practice to become proficient in. At least in my case I learned the dovetails much faster than m&t. I was stumped for the longest time at getting the mortises perfectly vertical, as even slight variations would get exaggerated at the other end of the stretcher. Like most other hand tool techniques it's a process and you need to build some muscle memory through practice to get the thing down and improve speed. Have you seen some of the videos available online? these videos use techniques which will over time increase your speed.
Personally I think that after some experimentation you need to find a process which you feel comfortable with, and just stick to it. Practicing the same technique builds proficiency over time. Me I just enjoy any shop time I can get, so I never really think about the time it takes me to build anything. The wife gave up on me being productive long time ago :o

[John Tallyn]

If you have a drill press you might try drilling out the majority of the waste between the mortise lines, makes the job go much faster, or if you can drill straight you can try doing it with a handheld drill. The other thing to consider, what are you using as a base to to lay the wood on while you chop the mortises? It's possible that whatever you have the wood placed on while you chop may be absorbing a great deal of the force from the mallet. Main thing is, don't get discouraged, every project, every joint is a learning experience.

[Steve Branam]

When I built my Roubo workbench and worked on the mortises (including big wide ones around 2" wide), I didn't have full-width mortise chisels. That makes it a lot more time-consuming, because not only are you having to make multiple passes down the length of the mortise for depth, now you have to make multiple passes for width, and the width wanders. That then takes more time-consuming cleanup.

For big mortises like that, I get the bulk of the work done in a quarter of the total time. The remaining three quarters is fine-tuning and fitting. Each of these mortises ended up taking me nearly an hour. The last few were quicker, showing that it's partly just a matter of putting the time in for practice. But it's the fine detail work that always takes the time.

Just visualize the day when you'll be able to slip the tenon into the mortise with a little hand pressure first try before any final cleanup. You'll get there. I watched Peter Follansbee do exactly that on Saturday (though with a more normal-width mortise). But he's been doing that for nearly 20 years, so he's done it a few more times than I have. Experience counts!

[Mike Henderson]

Like John Tallyn, I drill out big mortises first, then clean up with the chisel. If you want to stay neander, use a brace and bit. A well sharpened hand bit will cut pretty quickly.

Or use a drill press or cordless drill by hand.

Mike

[Alan Schwabacher]

I think Roy Underhill said it best. When someone asks whether you should drill out your mortises or simply chop them out with a chisel, the correct answer is "yes". That's because it depends on the size of the mortise. Small ones can be quickly chopped out, and drilling does not help you much. But large mortises for timber framing or workbenches require so much stock removal that it is a very good idea to bore first. A brace and bit work well if you want to do it all by hand. You can watch Roy on various episodes of Woodwright's shop, many episodes of which are available on line. The gate episode of this season should show the process for large mortises.

[john brenton]

I may be late on a reply (not like you were waiting for ME to reply or anything), but first thing is that yellow pine really isn't all that soft. I mean, yes it is relatively soft, but its not like a soft cedar where you can practically make a mortise with hand pressure.

Like most things, I've found that my body position changes everything. I like to chop standing at the end of the bench with my body in line with the length of the mortise. I also prefer to chisel towards myself and will do as much as I can this way. I also hold the chisel as close to the edge as I can for control...I am interested in the Narex chisels because they look light and make hold the bottom of the chisel easier...my current mortise chisels are heavy as heck and I have to devote too much effort to holding them upright...at least until the mortise is deep enough.

Sometimes drilling is better, sometimes chopping it out is better. Although I've done deeper mortises, as a rule 2.5" is a deep mortise for me, so I don't know which way is better, but I do suggest checking your work with a chincy little depth gauge. It may not be NASA perfect, but it at least provides something of a square that you can get inside the narrow mortise, and that'll let you know if the walls are right or not.


I'm curious, how long does it take you seasoned Neanders to chop a 3/4" wide x 3 1/2" long, by 2 1/2" deep mortise in a softwood like yellow pine? I'm enjoying the process, but am somewhat discouraged by progress. I'm planning 2x6 stretchers at the top and bottom, running between all of the posts.

I have some decent chisels that are nice and sharp. I'm using a 1/2" mortise chisel, and bench chisels of various sizes for cleaning up the corners and ends.

At this rate, it seems like it will take me a month to chop 16 mortises for what I thought was a simple projet.

[Pam Niedermayer]

I think the two methods require different attention. If you drill and pare, you must pay a lot of attention to the lines, two of which I never even draw that well. If you chop, you pay attention to your tool. Since I prefer a tool centric process, I don't drill. Plus, when I've tried the drilling approach my results have been like trimming a bush (for me), a stub. And another plus, it didn't save me any time.

Pam

[john brenton]

I'm still on the fence about whether drilling is a time saver or not. I just finally really put a nice honed edge on my lock mortise chisel too, so I have to give that a go. I had a mediocre edge on it and never bothered to really dial it in.


I think the two methods require different attention. If you drill and pare, you must pay a lot of attention to the lines, two of which I never even draw that well. If you chop, you pay attention to your tool. Since I prefer a tool centric process, I don't drill. Plus, when I've tried the drilling approach my results have been like trimming a bush (for me), a stub. And another plus, it didn't save me any time.

Pam

[john brenton]

I'm still on the fence about whether drilling is a time saver or not. Its kind of like that other route to work...I can't tell if its faster because every time I take it there's a jam or I get stuck behind a senior citizen or some yuppie dope readin a book, eating a breakfast sandwich and yapping on the cell phone. With mortising, every time I try to see which one is faster I make a mistake, or the wood is funky.

I just finally really put a nice honed edge on my lock mortise chisel too, so I have to give that a go and see if its really worth having. I had a mediocre edge on it and never bothered to really dial it in.


I think the two methods require different attention. If you drill and pare, you must pay a lot of attention to the lines, two of which I never even draw that well. If you chop, you pay attention to your tool. Since I prefer a tool centric process, I don't drill. Plus, when I've tried the drilling approach my results have been like trimming a bush (for me), a stub. And another plus, it didn't save me any time.

Pam

[Joe A Faulkner]

Thanks for all of the replies and comments on technique and approach. I'm somewhat curious as to what my expectations should be. I know my milage may very, but Steve noted that his mortises took about an hour each. Is that in the ball park? If so, I think I'm in the parking lot!!!

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I just finally really put a nice honed edge on my lock mortise chisel too, so I have to give that a go and see if its really worth having. I had a mediocre edge on it and never bothered to really dial it in.

Yes, it's a good idea to not pry, so I use the Japanese shoji tools to clean out the mortise; however, when I'm in the groove and following the bevel, there's little to clean out.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks for all of the replies and comments on technique and approach. I'm somewhat curious as to what my expectations should be. I know my milage may very, but Steve noted that his mortises took about an hour each. Is that in the ball park? If so, I think I'm in the parking lot!!!

If they're wide, deep, and long, I suppose it could take an hour per; but once you get the hang of it, things go much more quickly. I recommend studying Jeff Gorman's site (http://www.amgron.clara.net/), for many issues, but especially on mortising where he displays the results of two or three types of chiseling. Brilliant stuff.

Pam

[Steve Branam]

If they're wide, deep, and long, I suppose it could take an hour per; but once you get the hang of it, things go much more quickly.

Yes, and I would further mention that the bulk of the waste comes out in the first 15 minutes, but it's so rough that it leaves a lot of cleanup and fiddly fitting work. As your skill improves in leaving it better from the first stage, the remainder will rapidly improve. You might only reduce the rough part to 10 minutes, but you can probably improve the cleanup to 5 minutes. I'm not there yet!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I also hold the chisel as close to the edge as I can for control...I am interested in the Narex chisels because they look light and make hold the bottom of the chisel easier...

If you pick one up, careful with those Narex. The back edges on mine are sharp, that trapezoidal shape meets quite crisply. I was chiseling that way with them, holding the blade for more control, and then wondering where the blood was coming from. Gave myself a series of nice paper-cut like slices on all most of my finger pads! I was going to dub them, but I've found they work quite well for scraping the sides of the mortise as you rock the mortise. Now I just wear a glove if I feel the need to hold by the blade.

[Joe A Faulkner]

If they're wide, deep, and long, I suppose it could take an hour per; but once you get the hang of it, things go much more quickly. I recommend studying Jeff Gorman's site (http://www.amgron.clara.net/), for many issues, but especially on mortising where he displays the results of two or three types of chiseling. Brilliant stuff.

Pam

Pam, Thanks for the pointer to Jeff's site. I found his article very helpful. So far, I've only chopped 4 of these deep, wide mortises. I plan on giving Jeff's "v" technique a try on the next one.

[Chris Fournier]

That's a good sized mortise but I could have it finished in about 15 minutes in SYP and that's no race. I would only use a full width chisel as this is a huge time saver and helps ensure parallel sides etc!

[Terry Beadle]

I use a combination of chisel width and drill press removal.

Say you have a 3/8th s mortise. Mark where one side of the tenon is to be. Then draw a square line across the stock. Put your 3/8ths mortise chisel on the line with one tip of the edge against the tenon line mark. Give the chisel a lite tap. Set your marking gauge on the tip of the opposite edge from the datum side. Use it to mark the length of the mortise. Be sure to extend the marking lines a bit past the ends of the tenon. At this point you have a accurately marked mortise socket.

This marked mortise can be put to the drill press or if it's a fine piece of furniture that needs extra care, then use the chisel to litely tap cuts the length of the mortise area and then remove them with the side of the chisel. This will create a sharp edge out line of the mortice. Stay 1/8th inch from the ends of the mortise as the final squareness and length will be pared at the end of the process.

Drill the marked mortise area. Be sure your drill cuts squarely. If I'm doing 3/8ths widths, I use a 5/16ths end mill in the drill press.

Once the bulk of the mortise material is removed, use the 3/8ths mortise chisel to make deeper cuts the length of the mortise area ( still not touching the ends by 1/8th ). I like to knock the mortise chisel down to about the 3/8ths to 1/2inch level and then remove the side material with a paring chisel. Be sure to view the paring chisel from the long end of the mortise. Keep it cutting square to the side. Use the edge cuts of the mortise chisel to connect the dots so to speak. This will assure you aren't taking too much from the sides and the chisel cuts give you a well defined line to follow. On longer mortises, use a wider paring chisel and seat the trailing cutting edge to the prior flattened square cut. This uses the marked area cut lines, the edge marked chisel cuts, and your ability to see square as you work across the mortise. The wider paring chisel will speed the long cuts and give better square/following cuts from one area of the tenon side to the next. Work you way to the depth setting of the mortise that the end mill really does a good job of establishing.

This whole process takes longer to describe than to do IMO, especially after practice.

Use the mortice chisel to pare the end cuts of the 1/8th inch reserved area, be sure to hold the mortise chisel litely from the side and not the end view so that you can judge the squareness of the end cut. The chisel will follow the square area you have already pared to. Make the end paring cuts less than a 1/16th cut at a time.

Two reasons I like this method over drilling/freehand or motise chisel only methods. One you get a very accurate mortise area marking. Two you have very fine control of the chisel cuts and enjoy the speed of the drill press rough stock removal.

[Joe A Faulkner]

That's a good sized mortise but I could have it finished in about 15 minutes in SYP and that's no race. I would only use a full width chisel as this is a huge time saver and helps ensure parallel sides etc!

Chris, what technique do you use? Jeff suggests starting in the middle, working the mortise chisel to full depth, creating a "void" in the center of the mortise, and then backing up from there.

[Zach England]

If you have the luxury of having some floats they are very helpful.

[john brenton]

Thanks for the heads up...I did that same thing with some stanley chisels ...I didn't even notice until I started using a solvent to clean something up afterward. ouch.


If you pick one up, careful with those Narex. The back edges on mine are sharp, that trapezoidal shape meets quite crisply. I was chiseling that way with them, holding the blade for more control, and then wondering where the blood was coming from. Gave myself a series of nice paper-cut like slices on all most of my finger pads! I was going to dub them, but I've found they work quite well for scraping the sides of the mortise as you rock the mortise. Now I just wear a glove if I feel the need to hold by the blade.