Trends in tool purchasing - voice in....

[Chris DeHut]

Having been involved in woodworking in some way shape or form since I was a little feller, it seems as though i am seeing a new trend within the hobby.

For many years (the last 15~20) buying on price seemed to be the driving force as to which tool a person would purchase. This is what drove many tool mfgs. to outsource manufacturing to China and elsewhere in the world. Several of the remaining tool companies have annouced further oursourcing of manufacturing to keep costs down and to remain price competitive. As we all know, this has been going on for many years now.

However, recently, within the last 2 or maybe 3 years, the shift seems to be moving back towards top-end tools as the sought after choice. For example, many of the European saws (table and band) are making pretty impressive in-roads within hobby shops. These machines are generally much more costly than the western (or far eastern) built tools. Then there is the Festool brand that is gaining much popularity in the home workshop. These tools again, are priced high relative to many of the other tools available.

The other thread running on dust collection seems to also bring out some of the changes (buy american or buy chinese made to save money).

Over the years, I have purchased tools based primarily on "will it do the job" and "will it last for a while or end up in the trash can in a few months". The cost of the tool has not been a primary focus for me, but certainly weighs heavy on many of the purchases.

In your recent tool purchases, have you found yourself looking more towards "Quality at any price" or "Price first"?

Note, for what it is worth...

Everyone has their own budget for tools. I have owned plenty of very low cost tools over the years. Sometimes, I have had to purchase a tool that I knew would only last long enough to get me through a couple of jobs. However, the choice between not having a tool because I couldn't afford the best and having a tool to allow me to do the job, was always and easy decision. When something needs to be done, I need to do it. Like many things in life, there is a progression of purchases to get to the pinnacle.

Just curious what you folks are thinking about when making your purchases and if there really is a new trend happening.

Chris

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I would say that your reflections are accurate amoung the Saw Mill Creek demographic. However, most at Saw Mill Creek are very dedicated woodworkers that strive for perfection. Sure there are a lot of newbies, like me, but the member base seems to be more of a highly refined group of tradesmen. I think that these people are looking for more quality than cost.

However, I still see many people buying based on cost, especially, those new to the game. I mean how could you justify $2000 on a tool, or more, if you don't even know if you will like the hobby. Some don't. Everyone looks at price, for some it is more important than quality, others quality comes first.

[Ralph Steffey]

Since I make a living with my tools I always buy on quality first and price second but I still look for the best deal I can find

[Greg Mann]

There is certainly a demographic element to this. Many of us are at a point of convergence in our lives. We can afford to spend more for a higher quality tool and we recognize that is, very often, economical to do just that. There is a circular logic to all of this. 1. We aspire to do higher quality work. 2. We recognize that higher quality tools aid in this process. 3. We recognize that higher quality tools cost more. 4. We can afford higher quality tools. 5. We appreciate the satisfaction derived from the results. Some of you may argue these points in total or individually but I maintain that they are generally true.

In my day job, we constantly try to get our customers to understand the difference between cost and price. We try to buy high performing products that give us high return. "Expensive to buy, cheap to use." And, conversely, we aspire to provide high performance products that assemble correctly, perform to expectations, eliminate warranty costs, etc. I try to use the same philosophies in my woodworking life.


Greg

[Bob Johnson2]

I agree with Jeff observations, go look around at some other forums, you'll find the majority are looking mostly at price. This group attracts the opposite from what I've seen in the short while I've been spending time here, of course that's why I hang here instead of there. It'd be interesting (although probably not suprising) to see the demographics of the different groups.

Go Pats!

[Frank Pellow]

I would like to think that quality tools are becoming important again, but I fear that as mentioned by Jeff and Greg, that the quality of tools is only important to a small segment of the woodworking community.

[Jim Becker]

After making a few "ill-advised" tool purchases when I first started woodworking about 7 years ago, I've pretty much consistently bought quality/features over price. In fact, I often say, "The most expensive tool is the one you need to replace early and often"...and I sincerely believe that.

About the only place in my "purchasing life" that I tend to buy on price is clothing. For tools, automobiles, appliances, etc., I buy the best I can afford, even if it means waiting a little longer to get it.

Chris, I think that the trend you've noticed is still not fully mainstream, although it's moving in a positive direction. More and more folks are moving on the premium stuff. But part of that is because of the resurgence in woodworking within the younger generation again, especially with professionals in various industries that pay well but leave people needing serious hobbies to stay sane. And due to the Internet and forum sites like SMC, more and more folks are becoming aware that there is life beyond the numerically more common brands.

[Herb Blair]

Chris,
I guess the old axiom is approriate here... buy quality, buy it once, buy cheap, and you'll buy it again.... and again.
When I started out in woodworking, cost was very important to me, as I didn't have a lot of money to spend on tools, I was busy raising a family and all of the expenses that entails. In recent years, as my nest has emptied, I've started replacing some of those purchases with a much higher quaility tool. What was adequate 20 years ago, just don't cut it (no pun intended) these days.
Not only do I see a trend in folks like me going to higher cost (and quality) tools, but I also see a love for the old tools, such as planes, chisels and saws.
Several years ago I upgraded from a Craftsman dovetail jig to a Leigh Jig, and hadn't even considered hand cutting dovetails, but through this and other forums, I found that others were learning how. So, I started out with a inexpensive saw. I stuggled with it, but taught myself how to hand cut dovetails in a couple of weeks. To reward myself, I bought a LN Dovetail saw, and found that it made the task easier and even more enjoyable. Looking back, had I had the LN to begin with, it would have made the learning easy.
So, I think that two forces are playing here on the demographics of woodworkers. First, the population is aging (therefore the descresionary income is growing), and communication with other woodworkers through this and other forums. An example of this is a recent posting saying that one distrubutor had a couple of rasps on sale. There was an immediate flurry of orders for those rasps. (Keep up with the Joneses?)

[Doug Shepard]

I suspect part of the resurgence in the costlier, quality tools isn't something that's limited to WW tools. A lot of baby boomers getting older, with kids out of the house, and they've suddenly got disposable income to buy toys they've wanted for 30 years. Whether that's WW tools, Harleys, Honda Goldwings, Complete workshops, Vacation homes, etc., etc.

My personal approach is to shop and compare on quality and features. But once I've decided on a particular model or brand, I'll shop til I drop to try to find the best price I can.

[John Weber]

Chris,

There are many factors that come into play. First disposable income is at an all time high – or so it seems. People now spend fortunes on hobbies of all sorts. I don’t think this type of spending ever occurred in the past. Just think of any subject or interest you have and there are 1,000’s of other people doing the same thing, from Photography, cars, woodworking, sewing, scrap booking, you name it… The other half of the coin is most woodworking tools are commodity items, and purchased primarily on cost. Even though a woodworker can afford most any tool in any given category, he simply choices what best meets his needs and often that is the low cost.

Years ago we took shop class in a shop full of Delta or Powermatic equipment. Many kids thought when I grow up that is what I want. Then Jet, Grizzly, and other importers came on the scene, Jet following a traditional path of retailers and a service and distribution network, Grizzly following a mail order route. Jet, for the most part always spec'd their equipment fairly well and has grown and is now regarded at top player in woodworking tools. Grizzly was hampered by shoddy products and quality until recently (last 5 years), but developed a reputation of good bang for the buck. What seemed to develop was two camps, the Delta/Powermatic/General guys, willing to pay more for well respected equipment, excellent service, and superior fit and finish. And the Grizzly camp, where guys feel they are saving hard earned cash by buying an imported tool and they can live without a local service network or some of attention to detail as long as the tool does the job. Jet seems to fall in the middle offering better value then the North American built machines, and still having a strong service network.

Now we have the ultra high end guys, I believe this group is an off-shoot of the traditional US built tool group. They have the resources available and want the best tool available. That is why we are seeing the growth of companies such as Felder, MiniMax, Laguna, etc… However to enter this group substantial resources must be available to support the hobby. And we’ll always have the cobbler down the block that makes wonderful stuff on equipment we would toss in the trash.

Much of this is also reflected on the hand tool side, with plenty of guys happy with old Stanleys, a large segment values the new offerings from Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, and others, and finally the ultra high end with English smoothers, rare Stanleys, and other planes I’ll never own.

Now we are seeing a bit of this in the portable hand tool market, although most name brands tools still offer the best compromise in cost and performance. Cheap tools from Harbor Freight and others will always be “cheap”, sometimes doing the job and other times not. The recent influx of European tools demonstrates there is demand for higher quality, more function, and/or both. It seems like the first area we saw a big influx was the quiet high efficiency vacs, as woodworkers dumped their shop vacs in favor of a machine that cost several times as much, but was quite and well designed.

Finally the buying decisions also drift into politics, most woodworkers hate to see the announcement of losing more US jobs (like the PC notice a couple weeks ago), and many dislike the idea of supporting a company that has manufacturing in places were we don’t agree with the politics or policies. Although with more and more companies moving to these countries it often becomes difficult to voice our decision with our purchasing power.

So, yes there is a trend toward high end tool and fully outfitted shops. I grew up with old American iron and that is what I like. Many are just as satisfied with an imported machine and that is fine. Hopefully the market is moving away from lowest cost and toward quality and choice. I think as long as we vote with our wallets, then at least some tool makers will go after the higher niches, and not focus on the lowest common dominator – low price. The influx of disposable income has helped our hobby, but at the same time woodworking equipment and tools are the best value I believe they have ever been as a percentage of income.

Now if I just had a little more time and money…

John

[Dave Avery]

Wow...... I agree with almost everything everyone has said..... that's pretty rare :)

I'll only add that time is much more valuable to me than money, so I now buy only high quality tools. And those tools not only improve the quality of my work and reduce the time it takes to makes things, they make the entire process more enjoyable. As an example, the Festool Rotex sander turned drudgery in to something I don't mind doing.

One final note, and a well hidden gloat..... my new Festool router arrived this evening, so I'll be reading the manual and playing around with it a little later.


Dave.

[Bob Marino]

Funny, I just wrote several paragraphs as a reply to this thread, went to preview my post and the reply got "lost". But it turns out, it is very much a reitteration of the other replies here. I, like Dave, find myself in agreement with the replies posted so far.
I don't think it marketing hype that's responsible for high end companies (or rather companies producing high quality tools) seeing their sales on the increase. Yes, I suppose there's a bit of that, but there would never be repeat business -, snob appeal doesn't work if the tools don't perform!!!
The most expensive tools are those which waste one's time because of poor...or unsafe performance.

Bob

[Dennis Peacock]

I purchase based on quality FIRST and then price. Festool, Jet, Delta, DeWalt, Hitachi, Porter-Cable, Laguna and others. But....I have a better understanding of tools and what quality tools can do better for a person as well as saving in time and materials.

Sure wish I knew what I know about.....but only about 20 years EARLIER!!! :rolleyes:

[Dale Thompson]

Chris,

In my humble opinion, it is mainly the fault of the "baby boomers" who are "empty nesters" and have beaucoup bucks to spend. These folks are much smarter than I am and invested wisely. I'm selling my Enron stock for only half of what I paid. Is anyone interested? :D ;) :D

In the late sixties, I had a well paying middle management job. However, the welfare of my family took priority over my infant woodworking hobby. The only "stationary" tool that I had was a $99.00 9" Sears Radial Arm Saw. I finished two basement recreation rooms with it. The thing was used for cross cutting, ripping, planing, shaping, molding, dadoing, ploughing, pin routing, disc sanding, drum sanding, miters, bevels and a combination of the two. It was also used as a horizontal boring machine and a short-stroke drill press. I think that the thing is still in use. As time passed, I added other, more specialized, tools to my shop. Even then, Sears was the best cost/value product for the home woodworker. There were no other choices.

When I took off the hand-cuff, known as a watch, and "retired" seven years ago, I had a "tool fund"! REPLACE EVERYTHING WITH THE BEST!! I think that I did. I monitored forums, asked a lot of stupid questions and made my decisions according to the experts. Since I found a "home" on the CREEK, I don't think that I made too many mistakes. :cool:

Whether the color was a pucky, baby-excrement yellow, a nice black and yellow, blue and red, white, green, whatever, I followed the crowd. :confused: :)

The bottom line: We are paying 300-400% more for a tool which MIGHT increase our accuracy by 10-20%. Is it worth it?

YES!!!!! YES!!!!! YES!!!! :) :)

I STILL miss my little 9" RAS. :( :(

Dale T.

[JayStPeter]

Well, I switch back and forth. I have been really liking the Festool stuff. But, with the big machines, I have to fall back for price. Every so often I can spend $500 on my hobby. Getting $2500 together is a different story. So, I have a Grizzly bandsaw instead of Minimax. I would if I could though :D

I do agree with the others that we are a real minority.

Jay

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I nearly always go for quality first, then budget. In the end it's the best quality I can afford. I would love to always buy American but......In the 60's, 70's and 80's I was a Chevy man. Then I bought my 83 Chevy Blazer. I've never lost a transmission in any other vehicle I've owned and in the 60's I should have lost some transmissions because of my stupid driving habits at that time! 5 transmissions.......5 transmission in 4 years and 41,000 miles of driving. I'd still be a Chevy man but the caloused, uncaring attitude of the Chevy factory reps drove me away! The local dealer kept trying and kept installing rebuilt transmissions at no cost to me but........I owned that vehicle for 4 /12 years....it spent 4 months in the garage for transmission and brake failures. When the 5th transmission started acting up, I bought a used(1 year old, 19,000 miles)...used Toyota 4-Runner. My wife drove it for 16 years and 163, 00 miles. Yes, I did several brake jobs on it. Yes at 123,000 miles I had to replace the timing chain. Yes, I replace the alternator twice. But....I consider those normal maintenance items and I was doing the mechanicing! We traded it in for a new 2002 Honda Accord LX V-6. I would love to buy American always American but when I'm making an investment of that value, I'll take quality everytime. That being said, I bought a t/s just a few weeks before I found this forum. Knowing then what I've learned here, I probably wouldn't buy that t/s today, though FWW recently reviewed the saw and said it was a lot of bang for the buck? My new shop...2x6 construction...poured footing, wall and floor..200 amp 220 service...square D service entry panel.....the best quality I can afford. In short, quality, service and price in that order.

[John Weber]

Ken,

Interesting, my Dad had a '84 Blazer that went through 3 or 4 trannies. The reasons were always well this wasn't aligned right or that went out. The final one was on my way back to school in Tennessee with three friends from Ohio. My Dad had to come get us. I borrowed my Dad's Blazer because it had more room then my Toyota xtra cab truck, well the truck completed the trip and it was the last Chevy anyone in my family ever bought. As for your Accord, they are built about 15 minutes from my hometown. Great cars and a super company, I have several relatives that work for Honda and they have all done well.

John

[Greg Mann]

I think the important point here is to encourage folks to do enough research that when they do make their purchases they don't reward mediocrity. If low end products don't sell the makers will improve or disappear, but if we continue to buy, and replace, then we have no one to blame but ourselves. Most of us have learned the false economy of buying on price point. We vote with our wallets, but we need to vote smartly.

[Randy Lisbona]

For the most part, I don't buy chinese. It sickens me to see so many good companies move their product overseas and the jobs with them. The american consumer has been conditioned by companies for years to buy based on price, not quality. I read somewhere that years ago, a good handplane cost several weeks wages. We complain now when good tools cost more than a few hours wages. The chinese don't engineer anything, they just make inferior copies.

Before I knew better, I bought based on price as well, but then I started getting into better tools. The sound, feel in your hand, ease of adjustments, quality of cut etc are things I have to live with everytime I use a tool. I only pay for it once. I now buy based on a combination of where it is made, quality, engineering, and features, cost is less important. If I can't afford it, I just wait until I can.

I can't imagine anyone saying we should eliminate the health and safety rules that our factory workers have but by buying chinese, we are essentially saying that price is more important and if a manufacturer can lower the price by copying our engineering designs, and eliminating a few safety procedures, so what if a few people get hurt or the company polluted a little more, or some poor sole here in the US lost their job, at least I got a cheaper product. I can't do that anymore so I don't buy from countries that I don't feel have the same working conditions as the US.

[Charlie Plesums]

Two things to add to the many points I agree with...

I find it interesting that people can spend $500 on a digital camera that will be obsolete in a couple years, spend $1,500 on a personal computer (upgraded from the one advertised for $500) that will be obsolete by the time it is installed, and then struggle about whether they can afford a contractor saw or a cabinet saw that will last 25 years or more. Often these people drive a big SUV or a sports car, and fret over the cost of a good saw blade. What is it that makes woodworking equipment so different?

I built the cabinets for two kitchens with only a radial arm saw. It took a year for the larger kitchen, so I later redid two more kitchens with store bought cabinets. If I had the equipment that I have now (a European combo) I would have built the cabinets for the latter kitchens in weeks not months, paid for the combo, saved money, and had a wonderful machine when it was done. The difference in the new combo and my old contractor saw is not how good a cut I can make, but how long it takes to make a good cut. So to my way of thinking, my mistake was not buying my combo 30 years ago, rather than waiting. I have run into a number of young woodworkers who are buying good equipment today so that they can efficiently build their own furniture.

If you are producing your own furniture and cabinetry, and enjoy doing it, is woodworking a hobby, or a way of creating sweat equity and savings? Are the tools just part of the investment, rather than recreation?

[aurelio alarcon]

It is of my opinion that the two, price and quality, are not mutually exclusive. The people selling expensive tools will lead many to believe that the higher the price the better the tool. Unfortunately, you have the person who bought this guys spiel and also bought the tool. The buyers of these expensive tools aren't gonna admit that other tools exist that are comparable in quality but cost less (in some cases much less). Who likes to admit this just after forking out so much money. I'm honest to a fault, and I'd be reluctant to admit this. So instead the person who forked out a small fortune will boast about how much better his tool is. In fact, he starts to sound a lot like the salesman himself (even worse yet, he starts to believe it). Many quality tools are manufactured in Asia and are of high quality, and the price is low. The price is kept low because manufactures pay a lot less to have the tools manufactured. So people pay less for the tool, but the quality is still very good. Recently there was a tool review of some cordless drills in a woodworker's periodical. There were three drills that got high marks. But if we used price as a baramoter of quality, the highest priced drill of those three recognized should have blown the other two out of the water based on its price vis-a-vis the other two. The plain truth is that it just didn't. Sound advice: the minute someone starts talking about how good something is and that its quality is the sole reason why it costs so much more than all the others, do yourself a favor and run--and I mean run-- the other way. There is a not too old saying that is apprpriate to end this with, and that is "don't believe the hype".

[Mark Singer]

Excellent Responses! Now that we all agree and have so many quality tools.....lets build something!

[Greg Mann]

snipped
The people selling expensive tools will lead many to believe that the higher the price the better the tool. snipped
Aurelio,
Do you really believe most of the folks responding to this thread react to a tool price by thinking, "Wow this expensive. It must really be good!"?

I think the common thread here is that many of us recognize the added cost of designing in utility, function, durability, and even beauty. For some reason you seem to think that those of us who are willing to pay more for a tool that is clearly superior are somehow duped into doing so. I submit that it is the other way around and I believe that has been the consensus view expressed throughout this thread.

[Bart Leetch]

I made my last tool purchase a used Unisaw which I rehabbed to save money & get a quality tool. So I killed 2 birds with one stone.

I just may be looking at used tools from now on for major(big) tool purchases. This way whether the tool is made over seas or un the US at least my money could possibly be considered as spent & staying in the US. My next big purchase may be a used 8" jointer. :)

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I think a great deal of recent tool buying 'trends' can be directly tied to internet forums like this one. Lots and LOTS of people are buying brand X simply because it's 'hot' at the time. Keeping up with the Jones', so to speak.

KC

[Tom Hintz]

I get a lot of new to almost new woodworkers through my site and have also noticed the trend towards higher-end tools. There always will be the cost-only shoppers, but I get far more email from folks looking for quality and value than simple price. They are willing to pay for a good quality tool.
One thing that bothers me though is the attitude of a small number of tool makers who seem to regard anyone outside of a full-on cabinet shop as a price-only shopper. I even had a manufacturer describe my demographic as non-professional and apparently of no interest to their company. That's fine in this one case as there are plenty of others who are more than willing to sell higher end tools to these folks.
I guess I have to agree with the trend assessment. I am encouraged by the number of people I have contact with that look beyond simple price when buying tools and equipment for their shops.

[John Motzi]

As Jim said earlier I buy the best I can afford. In the mid 1980's that meant a Grizzly contractor's type table saw. I build huge extension tables, a homemade rip fence (I couldn't afford Bisememyer) and worked that saw to its limits. In 2002 I replaced it with the last Inca 2200 available.

I have a #4 type 11 that I got on ebay in 2003 for $35. I cleaned it up, added a Hock blade and a Clifton 2-piece chipbreaker and it is one of my favorite planes.

In 1980 we bought a Maytag washer & dryer - man was that expensive considering we were in school at the time, living in married student housing. My son was 4 years old at the time. He is now 28 and we still have the Maytags (it will get replaced this year).

JM

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I'm sure I could have saved money in the long run buying the best tools back when I started my business, but I didn't know much about tools back then. After seeing what cheap tools have done for me in the past, I don't buy them anymore. In fact I try and tell others not to regularly. Since I make a living using my tools it's very important to me that they work correctly.

[Max Schultz]

I agree also with all the posts but relate mostly to what Dale T. has said. Another aspect of the situation is that years ago Sears made it possible by offering a charge account that many of us starting out would take advantage of as we could not come up with the necessary cash for the purchases. I like others have had a shop full of Craftsman and produced not only stable and functional furniture but quality as well with these tools on hand. I think as we grow older it is not necessarily the fact that we need to improve our tools but we need to create for ourselves some "anxieties" that we no longer get on a regular basis as we did when we were younger. I think that is why I tend to go for better tools and tools that were not affordable when I was struggling to raise a family and provide. I also think that today"s "newbies" are able to acquire higher end tools from the start with the ease of "easy financing", better paying jobs, and being better informed through exposure to forums such as this. :)

I recently completed a dining room table out of solid wood by using a recently acquired drum sander. Turned out perfect. I am thinking of how I used to level out a top with just a 4"x24" Craftsman belt sander and how I would look in the glare when I was finished to see how bad the uneveness was. :D
Max Schultz
Warsaw, IN

[Mark Singer]

Over the years I would only buy tools I needed for a project at hand. If i was making doors for a home the bid from a subcontractor was $10,000 and the lumber to make them was $2000 I could justify a Jointer or other tool if I was contributing my own labor. This was how my workshop grew.... I always tried to buy very good tools. I learned that from my father and he, from his father. This slow but sure expansion of my workshop gave me the time and practice and appreciation to learn to use each very well. I wanted to turn out the same or better quality than the subcontractor would have if he built the doors. Today my shop is very complete....if I can't make something, it is very rarely not because I don't have the right tool. SMC has increased my buying of finer tools because members make me more aware of what is available.. I kind of reward myself for finishing a project by buying something, at this point it is not machinery, rather hand tools,ie, planes and chisels. Or a better router the Rotex which I just got. I try to get stuff I will really use and will really help in some way. The rotex is a perfect fit for my organic forms and chair and furniture parts that blend. Now I tend to buy more often, some of the manuals don't get read , and the appreciation of the slower careful purchases is a bit diminished.

This seems to be a Golden Age for woodworkers, I can't remember so many fine hand and power tools becoming available. The use of fine hand tools is once again alive and well. If you buy quality and change your mind and wish to sell, a Lie Neilsen plane, for example....you won't get hurt!
I see a lot of passion for woodworking in this Forum and that is a great thing! It deserves fine tools and it also deserves the dedication to learn to use and take care of them...I see a lot of that too!
The Design Forum is experiencing a lot of activity...this is also important!
With all of this going on at the same time, we are seeing great work and a sharing of tools and techniques....a raising of the bar in a much grander vision that was once confined to the 4 walls of each of our workshops...That is healthy!
We can largely thank the internet and a great forum like SMC....how else could this many people from all over with great ideas share them so easily?

[Alfred Hoffmann]

I am coming in at the tail end of this discussion. Some very thoughful comments have been offered. Here is one of the reasons that I have begun buying the best I can afford. Now that I am retired I can afford to spend as much time as I want (or can afford) on my new hobby - woodworking. Although I have been at it on and off for over 30 years I only bought and used the tools for what needed to be done around the house. Now it's becoming more serious and I enjoy making things not for my own needs but because it either becomes a challenge or it will be a gift for someone. My shop also has become a "hangout" for my sons and grand sons. We have made a number of projects as part of their cub scout or boy scout activities. And do they enjoy it!!. I would like to instill a sense of craftsmanship in them.
Enough of the 'gameboy" time. I have talked to my sons and decided that there is enough of interest and enthusiasm in them that they may want continue woodworking as a hobby. So. I am now buying tools with that in mind. Hopefully they will serve another generation or more.

Al Hoffmann

[Dennis McDonaugh]

One final note, and a well hidden gloat..... my new Festool router arrived this evening, so I'll be reading the manual and playing around with it a little later.


Dave.

I had to laugh because I don't need no stinkin' manual. That is until I went to change the blade on my Bosch router and couldn't for the life of me remember how to get the old one out of the saw. Fifteen minutes of fiddling with no success, then an hour of fruitless looking for the manual, then another 30 minutes fiddling with the saws until I remembered where I put the manual. Katherine says I only look at the manual as a last resort!

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Forgot to post to the original thread. It seems like woodworkers of different ages and maybe experience gravitate to different web sites. The guys on Woodnet seem to be in love with Harbor Freight and Grizzly tools. I tried Harbor Freight-no thanks. My Grizzly experience has been hit and miss, enough that I don't shop there too much any more (although I love my Grizzly jointer). I think a lot has to do with the economic situation which probably boils down to age. You guys are a lot more my demographic than some other sites.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

This seems to be a Golden Age for woodworkers, I can't remember so many fine hand and power tools becoming available. The use of fine hand tools is once again alive and well. If you buy quality and change your mind and wish to sell, a Lie Neilsen plane, for example....you won't get hurt

Ain't it great Mark? You can buy top quality, beautiful tools, albiet at a premium price, Medium priced high quality tools and low priced okay tools. You choice, something for everyone. Much as I dislike most cheap tools, I'd rather have a cheap one than none at all. Even an Anant plane can be made to work well with a little effort.

[aurelio alarcon]

Aurelio,
Do you really believe most of the folks responding to this thread react to a tool price by thinking, "Wow this expensive. It must really be good!"?

I think the common thread here is that many of us recognize the added cost of designing in utility, function, durability, and even beauty. For some reason you seem to think that those of us who are willing to pay more for a tool that is clearly superior are somehow duped into doing so. I submit that it is the other way around and I believe that has been the consensus view expressed throughout this thread.Greg, first of all, I wasn't responding to any one in particular or in general on this site. I was merely stating my opinion. Although, I will say that I have read on this site some people stating that "you pay for what you get." And this isn't always the case. As to your question whether I believe that people think "wow this is expensive. It must really be good" (your words not mine). Of course not. I am merely saying that in some cases, and not all, after some people buy an expensive tool they will tend to rationalize its cost. I know that this does not apply to everyone. And as far as being "clearly superior", the periodicals just don't support that theory. But if you were offended by my statement, please don't be. It wasn't an attack on anyone. Again, I was just giving my opinion and it was not directed at any individual or any group of people. There are other factors that contribute to a products cost besides utility, function, durability and yes beauty: Importing tariffs, exporting tarrifs, marketing, supply and demand, etc.....

[john lawson]

I buy the best value for the tool I need for the job I am doing. 35 years ago that was a $7.99 B&D single speed corded electric drill. The most recent drill I bought was over $165.00 for a Porter Cable 14.4V with two batteries and a smart charger. Both are adequate for drilling holes. The Porter Cable is much more convenient to use and of course portable in my shop or outside. I do remember working on a deck about 20 years ago and dragging extension cords all over the place.

On another forum they argue about the merits of high end European combination machines. The cheapest of these machines fully configured is over $10,000. The most expensive is over $25,000. I bought one (a European) that cost about $6500. I chose mine because I thought it was the best value I could get for the capabilities that I either wanted or thought I needed. My machine is not quite as accurate as the more expensive (by a few thousanths) nor does it have the same features, but it serves me well for making very accurate and repeatable cuts, whether in saw mode, jointing, planing, mortising or shaping. Would I have bought a more expensive machine if my budget would allow it? Probably. I use Harbor Freight clamps instead of Pony, because they cost 1/3 of what a Pony clamp cost and are virtually indistiguishable except for color. For certain glue-ups I only use my Bessey clamps because I want parallel and square, and they cost me dearly!

My point is that we all work with budgets and try to buy value. I don't necessarily believe that you always "get what you pay for". Honda and Toyota have proven that you can sometimes pay less and get more value, and they build them here in America as well. The "more" that you are getting is value, a sometimes hard to explain or prove virtue of a product that is nonetheless there. In cars it may be reliability and resale value; in a tool it may be that it is quiet and vibration free, compared to others.

There is a great deal of tension in the market place; we woodworkers are always searching for value and that means we are always comparing features and price. The other recent thread on dust collectors is a great example of this.

My $ .02

[Ken Fitzgerald]

As I've read this thread there's one thing that struck me.......Every opinion was valid and not all agreed.....but everyone was civil and respectful! Thanks folks! :)

[Steven Wilson]

I like fishing and I like woodworking. I spent $30K on a boat last year; nice boat, nothing over the top, not the most expensive, and not the least. It should give me a good 12-15 years of service if I take care of it. 5 years ago I bought a Suburban, paid cash about $35K. It will probably last me another 5 years and be worth nearly nothing. I finally have a woodworking shop that I like; it includes MiniMax, Oneway, Festool, Oneida, Lie Nielsen and others. Total price of my shop is less than the boat or the truck. It gives me pleasure, is efficient, keeps the dust clear so my nose doesn't bother me after working in it, and is reasonably safe. A sliding tablesaw with a riving knife is superior in safety to any traditional American style cabinet saw . With proper maintenance my shop should continue to perform well indefinately. Unless some very major improvement in woodworking equipment comes along, I shouldn't have to upgade again. The money, although a reasonable chunk of change, is money well spent

[Rich Konopka]

For many years (the last 15~20) buying on price seemed to be the driving force as to which tool a person would purchase. This is what drove many tool mfgs. to outsource manufacturing to China and elsewhere in the world. Several of the remaining tool companies have annouced further oursourcing of manufacturing to keep costs down and to remain price competitive. As we all know, this has been going on for many years now.

Chris,

The biggest reason that manufacturing is moving to China is PROFIT's. Have prices really come down on tools? The B&D and Dewalt drill are not that much cheaper than when I bought them in 1990 and 1996? My Delta CS built in the USA is not any cheaper now that it is built in China?? It may be true for some other tools.

Quality is of real importance just as saftey is. Price is not as much as an issue to me as it may be to some others who are on tight budgets.

[Bart Leetch]

I always get a kick out of statements like "it was the last Chevy anyone in my family ever bought."

What if they purchased a Ford next & a Dodge next & a Toyota next & it happened with all of them what then just start walking?

Remember if its man made its just a piece of machinery with someones name on it. The name badge doesn't create quality the people that work there do.

I've alway heard that if you want a real good car go to the factory & purchase one made on a Wednesday. Monday & Tuesday their getting over their hang over & Thursday & Friday they are working on their next hang over.

[Bart Leetch]

I had to laugh because I don't need no stinkin' manual. That is until I went to change the blade on my Bosch router and couldn't for the life of me remember how to get the old one out of the saw. Fifteen minutes of fiddling with no success, then an hour of fruitless looking for the manual, then another 30 minutes fiddling with the saws until I remembered where I put the manual. Katherine says I only look at the manual as a last resort!


I had to laugh because I don't need no stinkin' manual. Dennis Me too than I realized the roots from which I sprang & took heed to what my Pappy taugh me by example. The note book on the left is floor model tools & the note book on the right is bench & hand held tools. After this you should never ever need to look for another manual. :D

[John Weber]

Well Bart, I'm glad you got a kick out of that statement, but it's true for a lot more people than I. While our experience with the Blazer didn't represent the entire line, the attitude of the Chevy people did. Vague comments about poor design, no responsibility for the problems and a general arrogance on behalf of Chevy is why we do not buy Chevrolet. My parents still buy American vehicles, but I've long since been buying others. The Japanese get it, the Germans for the most part get it, the American car makers still don't get it on the whole, although they have made strides. While the Blazer was a $20k vehicle in the early 80's, if I experience the same level of failure and poor service from a tool maker I would always pass on them as well. So I'm glad you had a laugh, but rewarding poor performance with continued support is a fast path to mediocrity.

John

[QUOTE=Bart Leetch]I always get a kick out of statements like "it was the last Chevy anyone in my family ever bought."

[Tyler Howell]

I think a great deal of recent tool buying 'trends' can be directly tied to internet forums like this one. Lots and LOTS of people are buying brand X simply because it's 'hot' at the time. Keeping up with the Jones', so to speak.

KC
Interesting comment KC. don't know if I totally agree but I do know I can't wait to share pix of my latest purchases.
Knowledge is power. Before I slipped and fell into the creek I never knew MM, Felder and Festool existed. LN, LV, Bridgecity are also names and products that come with reading about and seeing the success of others.
Thanks to all of you for spending my money:o . But also how to utilize what I have and improve on technique:cool: .

[Frank Pellow]

I had to laugh because I don't need no stinkin' manual. Dennis Me too than I realized the roots from which I sprang & took heed to what my Pappy taugh me by example. The note book on the left is floor model tools & the note book on the right is bench & hand held tools. After this you should never ever need to look for another manual. :D
Bart, I like the way you have organized the manuals. :) I am going to follow your example (and I am going to do so right away).

Right now, mine are all just loose in a drawer. At least they are in the same drawer :) and I have manuals (or, in some cases what purport to be manuals :( ) for all :) my power tools and some of my non-power tools.

[Bart Leetch]

John my main point was that anything made by man can & will some day foul up. We all wish that this would never happen or at least happen somewhere around 300,000 miles along with no one running into our vehicle & slamming a door into it either. But the facts are all these problems exist. All we can do is try to avoid them as well as we can. Your route of avoidance it to not buy Chevy. I understand & respect that. It so happens I have a Ford truck a older motor home on a Chevy chassis & a 90 Chevy Lumina & a old Toyota.

The Lumina according to a syndicated nation wide automotive talk show is supposed to be one of the worst years for Lumina. At one time I thought it was a terrible car because of the repairs I've had to have done to it. I just added up the costs of owning this car since Nov. 1998 including the purchase price & decided it really wasn't that bad at about $7000 not counting insurance & gas over 6 years $1166.66 a year + gas & oil & insurance over 6 years. No car payments I payed cash when I bought it. As I did with all my cars over the last 18 years. I don't think I'll ever buy a new vehicle they just are not worth what they want for them, before they are payed for they would be well worn out. :)

[John Renzetti]

this is a good thread. Lots of good insights on the trends in tool buying.
I agree that the members of SMC try to buy the best they can afford. You see that in the number of us who have gravitated over to Festool.
As was already mentioned a while ago it was rare to find a European slider in a home shop. Back in 1998 when I bought my Felder KF7F saw/shaper with 8ft slider, at the IWF, that was a rarity. In fact Woodshop News put my mug in an article about large sliders in small and non pro shops. I think I commented to A.J. Hammler that I was in the "more money than sense catagory." Since that time a lot more people I know here have also joined that catagory-Jim Becker, Paul Cresti, Rob Russell, Charlie Plessums to name a few.
I think the trend started a little before I bought the Felder in 1998. A couple of years prior I bought a 45 yr old, 8" Delta jointer from the original owner a 73yr old retired dentist. He was buying this 3000lb all cast iron, German made jointer 16" jointer, I think it was a Kolle. I asked him why he was buying such a huge machine since he was not a professional. His reply, "I'm 73 yrs old and I've always wanted one of these things." I'm going to try this on my wife 15 yrs from now when I'm 73, when I tell her I want to trade the Format slider for a new Martin. I couldn't afford to do it now-the divorce would be too expensive.
take care,
John

[Chris DeHut]

Ken,

As I have said before, the group of members here at Sawmill Creek are exceptional. This is a great group of people who are VERY respectful of each other which is very much in contrast to most other forums (woodworking or otherwise). I for one find it very refreshing to visit here and participate. My hats off to the moderators!

Chris DeHut







As I've read this thread there's one thing that struck me.......Every opinion was valid and not all agreed.....but everyone was civil and respectful! Thanks folks! :)

[Greg Mann]

Ken,

As I have said before, the group of members here at Sawmill Creek are exceptional. This is a great group of people who are VERY respectful of each other which is very much in contrast to most other forums (woodworking or otherwise). I for one find it very refreshing to visit here and participate. My hats off to the moderators!

Chris DeHut
Hey, sometimes we stretch civilty here, but somebody, moderator or member, will step in and get us back on track. That's what makes this place special. OTOH, I like to visit the Aussie sites now and then. They have thick skins down there, and poke fun at each other with unique and creative use of the language. No offense ever seems to be taken. Lessons there for all of us, I believe.

Greg

[Frank Pellow]

Hey, sometimes we stretch civilty here, but somebody, moderator or member, will step in and get us back on track. That's what makes this place special. OTOH, I like to visit the Aussie sites now and then. They have thick skins down there, and poke fun at each other with unique and creative use of the language. No offense ever seems to be taken. Lessons there for all of us, I believe.
Greg
I agree with you Greg that having thick skin and so taking criticism well is a good trait. Some folks are just not as good at this as others and I have, from time to time, been surpised on this forum when a person does not accept comments and suggestions in the spirit in which I think they were intended.

[Byron Trantham]

Excellent Responses! Now that we all agree and have so many quality tools.....lets build something!

Here, here!!!!!!! :D

[Byron Trantham]

Well here is my 2 cents worth (we must have about $50 by now :p ). My first "serious" tool was a Craftsman contractor's saw($400). I had it for seven years and put about another $400 in mods trying to improve it's performance. I finally bought a Unisaw. Wow, what a difference. The differences were subtle but tangible. My wife bought me a Black and Decker ROS for $39. I used it until the pad needed to be changed and then I bought a Bosch for $130. Again, wow, what a difference in performance. Looking back at my tool purchases over the last ten years, I must say that I have come to the conclusion that having used tools that didn't quite perform as well as I wanted, did allow me the luxury of really appreciating the replacements. Now when I buy a tool I really research before I buy. Currently I would like to have an electric planer. I have settled on the Festool but I can't afford it now - I'll wait. My purchasing habits have shown me the value in buying well. ;)