I need shoulder plane advice!

[Larry Feltner]

I want to pick up a medium shoulder plane to fit tenons, etc. My preference is to buy American, so I have been looking at the Lie-Nielsen for $195. However, the Veritas plane is $16 cheaper, $179, and has the adjustable handle. I could see the handle being an advantage in terms of how it fits in the hand if it is designed well. If not, I could see how it would be uncomfortable. The Veritas being made in Canada doesn't bother me nearly as much as something made over seas. I have not had an opportunity to hold either plane.

Also, are the blade adjustment mechanisms on both planes similar? I know on their bench planes the two manufacturers use different adjustment mechanisms. Veritas uses a Norris style adjuster I think. Anyway, I'm just looking for advice and comments from people who have used one or both shoulder planes to help me decide which one to buy. I'm sure both are probably very fine planes.

[Rob Young]

Made in America (except possibly the blade being made in France), the Ron Hock shoulder plane kit, bevel down. 100% custom fit to you...

(Just to muddy the waters a bit).

p.s. I have the Medium LN shoulder plane and you can't go wrong with it.

[Andrew Yang]

Chris Schwarz wrote up a pretty good comparison at WK Fine Tools (http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/sPlanes/sPlanes1.asp).

Being Canadian, I'll let the buy American comment alone.

[David Weaver]

I have a large LN and a medium veritas. For a medium, just personal opinion, the fixtures included on the veritas to aid in grip are very worthwhile. For the large if you're using it for joinery, maybe it's less of an issue because there's more plane to hold on to and you're not going to be doing that much planing.

[Prashun Patel]

I have the Hock shoulder plane kit. I don't much care for it. I liked it at first, but the adjustment mechanism is like a typical wood plane. Tap and wedge. I don't find it easy. I'll end up getting a Veritas at some point.

[Brian Kent]

:)Looks to me like if we "Buy American" it looks like we could buy from 20-25 countries (depending if we count the Caribbean island nations).

And incidentally, I firmly believe the LV Medium Shoulder Plane is the best, not because I have one, but because a lot of people say that and I want one..

[Zach England]

I had both and sold the Veritas. I think the grip is awkward.

However, I kept my Veritas large shoulder plane because I like the side-mounting front knob. As I recall the Lie-Nielsen is a bit wider than the Veritas, but I'd have to verify. Both are equally good tools--just different.

[Jim Neeley]

I have the large Veritas shoulder plane and, with my big ol' hands, the knobs are fabulous. I angle them until they rest in the crook between my thumb and index finger. My hands provide the force, freeing my fingertips for angle control.

[Pam Niedermayer]

As Brian said, the US has no exclusive claim on the "American" description; and, last I heard, LV makes all their Veritas products in North America. So I'd advise you to buy the product you want.

Last time I got subsumed by the "Buy America" hordes was in 1978 when I bought a Harley cafe racer instead of the BMW cafe (R100S at the time); and I regretted it for three years as the Harley shook itself to death as I rode down the road. Fortunately an R90S owner lusted after a Harley cafe and we effected a very beneficial trade. Peace at last.

Pam

[Larry Feltner]

Let me just clarify, because I think some are getting too caught up in my comment about preferring to buy American. My preference would be to buy a product manufactured in the USA, but I am also fine with Canadian made products since our countries have a close relationship. I own some Veritas products and they have all been first rate. The comment wasn't a knock on Canadian products, it was a clarification on my earlier comment about wanting an American made product, meaning US made as it is commonly understood. Since I stated my preference of buying a US plane, and Veritas is not a US plane, I didn't want comments saying I should eliminate the Veritas plane because it is not made in the USA. I probably should have kept the origin of manufacture out of my question to begin with and just asked about those particular planes without bringing other considerations into the mix. I appreciate the information. I'm leaning toward the Veritas at the moment.

[glenn bradley]

"Buy USA" aside, both are quality tools. Your satisfaction will depend on how they feel in your hand. Impossible as it is for me to believe, some folks find the LV medium shoulder plane hard to hold. I was lucky enough to get to try the LV and LN side by side. Both are great, the LV just felt better in my hand, Your hand may have a different opinion.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have a LV medium shoulder plane. Before I bought I had the chance to try both at a couple shows. I decided on the LV, but I have to say it was a tough call as I do really like the look of the LN. Can't go wrong with either. I went with the LV because I thought it fit my hand just a bit better. I think I would go with the LN for the Large.... maybe I will go LV to make a matched set....

[john brenton]

<<insert comments about canadian liberalism and their human rights commissions here>>

I hear you on buying American. It's enough to push me over the edge, and in some case totally dictate my decision. I would buy LN or LV every time based solely on that.

[Paul Ryan]

I bought the LV medium for my 1st shoulder plane and used it for about a year. After going to a LN show I tried out there small (5/8") shoulder plane. No to be confused with there bronze shoulder plane. I owned both for about 2 years and recently sold my LV medium because I love the smaller LN plane, and always grabbed it over the medium. It is a little narrow in some cases but I prefer that. What I love so much about it is it is lite weight, compared to the medium planes, it can easily be used with one hand. I only have average size hands I could use the medium with one hand but it required be being careful as to not drop it. The LV grip is awkward if only using one hand to in my opinion. The small from LN just fits like a glove it is my favorite hand tool, and it isn't even close. I like the fact that it is 5/8 compared to 1/2 as well. But if I were stuck on buying a 3/4 shoulder plane I would try to hold each one and see what one feels better. The LN and LV both require different grips.

[Jim Koepke]

Don't forget Bridge City, their shoulder plane is $2,200 and solid stainless steel. :eek:

It does have a thicker blade.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

Paul, I really like that small LN shoulder plane, too, the one that looks like the Preston/Clifton; but unfortunately, LN no longer sells it. The only problem it had was humidity, which could cause the wedge to swell a bit and refuse to seat properly. I wonder if the new, small version is better in this regard.

I also like the huge LN version. With the two of them, I find I never reach for the middle sized HNT anymore.

Pam

[Jim Neeley]

Jim,

Now *what* was your Visa card number, once again? <g>

[jeff phillips]

I have both the LN small and large shoulder planes. I am definitly more fond of the small, but i have to this day never quite figured out a comfortable way to hold the large, nor have I figured out how to hold he small without busting my knuckles. While i have never used th LV varient, in theory it looks easier to hold and use.

Call me shallow, but since the neander tools are used for my fun projects, the "pretty" factor beat out the practical, so i still wouldn't go to the LV if i had it to do over again. :-)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I have the large LN. It is big and heavy - perfect!! I use it mainly for it's namesake task - shoulders on tenons. In this application, the plane is laying on its side on the tenon's cheek, with the blade to the shoulder [obviously]. One hand holds the plane to the shoulder, and the other hand's index + middle fingers hook in the large round-ish opening in the plane body, and pulls it across the shoulder.

I like the feel of the plane on a "pull" stroke, so I also use it that way when I need to stand it up beside the shoulder to tune up the cheek itself - but I generally don't use it on the rest of the cheek - Mr LA Block gets that job, or the router plane [and a cheek float got here the other day, so I'm going to try that out soon]. There are rare occasions where I have a long rabbet that was cut on the TS [like, for drawer bottoms]. In that case, I stand it up and pull if I can - if I can't, then my hand can fit around the brass handle good enough [pretty much like the photo in the Schwarz article] - just a couple strokes to clean up the TS blade scores.

I now use it on virtually very tenon I cut - it's set for a very thin cut and the mouth closed way down - a nice, quick, clean surface.

Credit where it is due - somewhere in the wealth of information he has available on his site, Derek Cohen has a thing on tenons - that was a eureka moment for me with the shoulder plane - and also caused an LN large router plane to arrive right away.

I have no experience with the LV shoulder plane[s], so cannot comment on them. Also - for what I use it for, I've always had a suspiscion that the medium might work a bit better than the large, but I haven't gotten far enough down the "nothing else left to buy" list to spend the $$ to find out.

[David Keller NC]

Larry - I have, at last count, 8 shoulder planes. 4 of them are occasional-use collector's items by Mathieson, Norris, & Spiers, 4 of them are shop tools (the lie-nielsen series). I used to have one of the Veritas shoulder planes, which I sold because I didn't like the non-traditional look. But there was nothing wrong with the function, fit or finish of the plane.

So what I can comment on is that there is no "best" one, regardless of who you are, especially when it comes to shoulder planes. The "why" to that statement is that Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, and Clifton will stand behind their product if there's a defect, and all three make very high quality tools.

But the critical thing to realize here is that a shoulder plane is a very occasionally used tool, and when it's needed, it's never needed for long. What that means is that grip comfort really doesn't matter all that much, nor does ease of adjustment. It matters that the adjustment will hold once it's set, and it matters that the mouth is relatively tight, but that's about it. You might have some folks chime in that they use their shoulder plane all the time, but that's not actually true relative to the other tools in their shop unless they specialize in cutting tenons in spare boards and are also really bad at it. That's because ideally you shouldn't have to use a shoulder plane - your tenons should fit from the saw. Even the best of us cannot live up to that standard, though, so shoulder planes are there when you need them. And theoretically, you can use them to cut rabbets and adjust dados, but they are not the best tools for those jobs.

So - the advice here is to just pick whichever L-N, Lee Valley or Clifton tool appeals to you on the basis of looks, buy a size that's fairly close to the scale that you work (medium's a good start), and don't let yourself get sucked into the "paralysis by analysis" mentality that sometimes afflicts us in the age of too-much-information.

[Jim Koepke]

Now *what* was your Visa card number, once again? <g>

Bridge City was brought up before looking at their web site. They used to make a model that was more reasonable. One time while at an LN tool event it was my pleasure to use one. It was amazing. Then it was only about $600 in bronze. When I decided to look it up before posting, I was shocked.

jtk

[Dave Lehnert]

Bridge City was brought up before looking at their web site. They used to make a model that was more reasonable. One time while at an LN tool event it was my pleasure to use one. It was amazing. Then it was only about $600 in bronze. When I decided to look it up before posting, I was shocked.

jtk


That's the cheap model. This is the one you need.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/hp-7le-limited-edition-stainless-steel-shoulder-plane.html

[Paul Ryan]

Paul, I really like that small LN shoulder plane, too, the one that looks like the Preston/Clifton; but unfortunately, LN no longer sells it. The only problem it had was humidity, which could cause the wedge to swell a bit and refuse to seat properly. I wonder if the new, small version is better in this regard.

I also like the huge LN version. With the two of them, I find I never reach for the middle sized HNT anymore.

Pam

Pam,

The small LN I have is the newer version with out the wooden wedge (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=041 ) . They still sell the bronze shoulder plane that is a real small plane with a wooden wedge. The one I have is based of the record model.

[Jim R Edwards]

I have a LV medium shoulder plane and like it very much. I tried the LN and did not care for it.

[Jim Matthews]

I use a LV medium to fit tenons (I can't cut a straight cheek, yet).

The LV never jams, and feels solid through the cut.

I have a larger Primus (ECE) shoulder plane for wider shoulders and it jams constantly.
The ECE has a convoluted cap iron assembly that works well when it's set up right.

Keeping it set is a PITA.

Who has time to twiddle with tools?

My 2 cents? You can't decide unless you hold it in your hands.

They're both terrific tools, and run without the cap iron.

[Rob Lee]

The Veritas being made in Canada doesn't bother me nearly as much as something made over seas. (snip)

Hi Larry -

If it helps - that plane is cast in the USA, and is manufactured using a suite of Made in USA machine tools - more than a million dollars' worth, in fact....

While still separate economies - Canada and the USA are still each others largest trading partners... and have the largest bilateral trading relationship in the world. We keep y'all employed, and you keep us employed. It's truly an example of "what goes around, comes around..."

Just sayin'.....

Cheers -

Rob

[Pam Niedermayer]

The small LN I have is the newer version with out the wooden wedge (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=041 ) . They still sell the bronze shoulder plane that is a real small plane with a wooden wedge. The one I have is based of the record model.

Oops, thanks, Paul. The small one with wooden wedge being sold today is not the one I have.

Pam

[Larry Feltner]

Rob,

Thanks for the information. I have several Veritas products and really love all of them. I just placed an order for the medium shoulder plane. Can't wait to try it.

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I really appreciate the expertise on this site. It's really valuable for people like myself who are trying to learn, but lack the experience.

[Gary Muto]

Hi Larry -

If it helps - that plane is cast in the USA, and is manufactured using a suite of Made in USA machine tools - more than a million dollars' worth, in fact....

While still separate economies - Canada and the USA are still each others largest trading partners... and have the largest bilateral trading relationship in the world. We keep y'all employed, and you keep us employed. It's truly an example of "what goes around, comes around..."

Just sayin'.....

Cheers -

Rob

I could not agree more. Of course I live 20 minutes from the Largest traffic US/Canada border crossing (Detroit/Windsor) and one hour from the second largest border crossing (Port Huron/Sarnia). Also working in the Auto industry, it's obvious how intertwined the economies are. This makes me a little biased but I think more toward North American than USA. I liked Rob's subtle comment "still separate economies"... sound ominous. :)

Back on point. I have the LV family of shoulder planes. The medium is my favorite, but the small is very comfortable and I have large hands. I can't comment on the LN, as I've never tried them.

[David Weaver]

That's the cheap model. This is the one you need.
http://www.bridgecitytools.com/default/tools/hp-7le-limited-edition-stainless-steel-shoulder-plane.html

Yikes. I think I'd find a couple of old infill shoulders for that instead.