Anyone increase the intake port on the HF DC to 6" and have resulting CFM data?

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

I have the popular 2HP HF DC with a Wynn filer (bought a year ago new) and 5" hose running to my machines (I just move it from machine to machine). but would love to increase the inlet flange to 6" if there will be a measurable improvement.

First, if the intake goes to 6", shouldn't I match that with a 6" outlet duct into the filter housing?

Second, with the impeller as small as it is, is there any significant CFM gain to be had by going to a 6" inlet...has anyone measured it?

Thanks

[David Kumm]

You first must find out if the blade configuration benefits from increasing the intake. Often they don't as the fan is designed for the intake. If it does, you need to increase both the outlet and the filter area unless the filter is overengineered, i.e. the same filter is used on a larger unit. You may be pushing a rock with a rope. Dave

[Aaron Rowland]

I have never seen a fan curve on the HF 2 HP DC , with or without a filter. I have put this on my to do list some day. It seems to keep growing as I age so good luck on this and I hope some one beats me to it . I have no use for the HF dc but its cheap enough to buy and one of my Club members says he will buy it from me , er maybe, depending how it comes out. There are no standards on how to measure the curve. The mags and suppliers some times publish curves but never have I seen with the curve how it was done despite claims they have done it. Please show me how they did it and the test gear used if you have a source. I sure could use this info.

The closest I know is a very ,very old test published by Jet years ago for single stage DC's. They used the German Testo test gear which being German is highly respected and probably the best in the world. Google -" Testo CFM test Jet" as I remember. Maybe some one can post the URL.

The Jet 2 HP uses a 11" impeller, the HF uses a 11.75" impeller. The bigger the diameter the more CFM. So HF should out perform the Jet. Except!- the filter. Filter on the exhaust reduce CFM and the bigger the pressure drop the lower the CFM. All the CFM tests are run as a system which I don't like but most every one else does according to my recent post on this. I won't argue the point. Just my opinion.. So you have no idea what the raw CFM is. Filters to me are like saw blades and disposable. I don't use filters on my Cyclone and exhaust directly out side. Also the HF is 120V and you have to monitor Amps or else good by motor. HF has a great warranty and I love their return policy.

So if I every get to run a fan curve it will be with and with out a filter and with both a dirty and clean filter.

Of course some times one has no choice for their shop and the portables must have an on board filter.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Bruno,

I did it to my Grizzly-equivalent of the HF DC, but have no data to document a performance increase.

If you haven't already, perhaps the quickest/cheapest improvement you could make to the HF DC is the "stove pipe modification" (replacing the piece of 5" flex connecting the blower to the bag ring with a piece of rigid stove/HVAC pipe, to present a lower-friction path for the exhaust air). I changed the position of my blower (placing it right up against the bag ring with no pipe connecting them) and qualitatively saw a significant increase in airflow.

Of course, make sure any modifications you do to increase airflow don't cause the motor to draw more current than it's rated for.

[Ryan Mooney]

FYI - I keep seeing reports of the HF DC having an 11.75" impeller, I can say definitively that that was _not_ true on the one I just bought, it was only 9.75" (I took off the shroud an measured it). I don't doubt that some of the older ones may well have been 11.75", but that's not what arrived at my door a few weeks back (I also realize that this says nothing about what might arrive at person X's door next week...).

The other explanation is that some folks measure things as a little bigger than they might actually be, so maybe its just natural inflation :D

[Bruno Frontera dela Cruz]

FYI - I keep seeing reports of the HF DC having an 11.75" impeller, I can say definitively that that was _not_ true on the one I just bought, it was only 9.75" (I took off the shroud an measured it). I don't doubt that some of the older ones may well have been 11.75", but that's not what arrived at my door a few weeks back (I also realize that this says nothing about what might arrive at person X's door next week...).

The other explanation is that some folks measure things as a little bigger than they might actually be, so maybe its just natural inflation :D

I haven't had any complaints so far with the 9.75"; but I bet there is a an optimal ratio between diameter and inlet size.

Quick (and likely flawed conceptually) math shows that the ratio between 6" inlet and 11" impeller is almost the same as 5" inlet and 9.75" impeller. If there is some data out there to define this optimal ratio, we can make quick work of this 5" vs. 6" inlet debate...

[David Kumm]

Bruno, I think the ratio for inlet vs impeller fan size has to do with where the blade begin to fan out i.e. the distance from the center. Larger fans aren't just larger diameter, but the blades are deeper and begin farther from the center of the shaft. If the inlet gets too big it exceeds that distance and screws up the cfm. Dave

[Aaron Rowland]

FYI - I keep seeing reports of the HF DC having an 11.75" impeller, I can say definitively that that was _not_ true on the one I just bought, it was only 9.75" (I took off the shroud an measured it). I don't doubt that some of the older ones may well have been 11.75", but that's not what arrived at my door a few weeks back (I also realize that this says nothing about what might arrive at person X's door next week...).

The other explanation is that some folks measure things as a little bigger than they might actually be, so maybe its just natural inflation :D
================================================== ================================================== ============================

Good catch Ryan. I have read 11.75" but really have no idea. If it's only 9.75" that's very weak and won't pump much air. I saw a post that some one claimed they had a 6" ducted system but that would be a very low CFM unit and certainly would not meet the no clog requirement of 3500 FPM that seems to be a common standard for built in systems.

Anyone out there with the HF DC willing to do a tear down to see what they have? A strange thing on impeller diameters , a lot of suppliers don't publish the spec. If you survey the various sellers you see some weird numbers and CFM ratings. One supplier who doesn't publish the numbers but shows fan curves, verbally stated that their 3 HP has a 13.5" diameter and their 2 HP has a 14.25" diameter for some model cyclones. This was according to one post here a while back. The numbers are backwards and may be a misquote on my part. Another supplier publishes for their single stage DC's- 10" for their 1HP, 12.75" for their 1.5HP and get this 12.75" for their 2 HP. Their is only about $10.00 difference in price. They had different CFM's too. Same machine?

!0" is about right for a 1 HP. 2 HP is baloney for a 9.75" impeller. No way could that load to even 1.5HP. So people here think they are getting a good buy but they are getting ripped in my opinion if this is the case.

Just remember , the diameter of the impeller determines the CFM. There seems to be a consensus on this and there is no dispute. Bigger is better.

[keith jensen]

No CFM data from me either but I did measure the diameter of the HF impeller to be approximately 10".

I also noted that the curves on the impeller also curve the wrong direction according to the info I read on Mr. Pentz's site. Maybe they make up CFM for the smaller diameter impeller by the increased noise of running it backwards....

[Joe A Faulkner]

Lot's of folks have increased it the intake. I asked saw one build here where the entire shop was plubmed with 6" runs and shop owner reports that he is very satisified with the results, though he doesn't have fan curve data.

http://www.cgallery.com/smf/index.php?topic=431.0

[David Kumm]

If you want a real world test, find a used anemometer on ebay. They will tell you the velocity of the air at the outlet and if you do the math, the cfm. They also work well for judging the airflow on a spray booth. Graphs are a great starting point but until you know how your system actually performs, you have no real way to access your modifications. Dave

[Aaron Rowland]

Another way to determine whats going on is with a clamp on Ammeter. Every shop needs one anyway and if you don't have one get one. You have to make an adapter to use it so you can grab one wire. A 12" length of 14-16 ga extension cord with plugs on both ends will do it. Remove 6" of the out side covering so you can reach the inside wires. Do not remove the insulation on the inside wires !!!. Then run either the black or white wire through the inside of the clamp so it's loose.

Harbor Freight sells model 95652, clamp on multimeter for about $20.00. You can check voltage and other electrical stuff with this.

Amp draw at 50% efficiency,120V, which is what you are going to get with a low cost Asian motor is-
1HP = 13AMP, 1.5 HP= 19.5Amps, 2HP = 26 Amps.

If you are an optimist and think you bought a 70% efficient motor from a low bidder the numbers for 120V are - 1 HP= 9.3amps, 1.5 HP = 14Amps, 2 HP = 18Amps.

At best the HF could be 1.5HP with a 11" impeller. At worst you have a 1HP with a 9.75" impeller. No way can a junk 1.5 HP motor run on a typical 120V, 20 amp house wiring.

I'm really disappointed in the HF set up from what I have read. I've seen a lot of shops where the owner claimed he got good dust collection with a 1.5HP motor. Saw dust all over the place especially the floor. I could not get, what I consider, good collection with a 12" impeller 2HP 230 V system. What do you think the 5HP DC are popular for built ins? For portables 3HP is a minimum despite claims. However some people don't worry about lungs and allergies. To meet Osha etc. specs it takes a huge amount of power. Years ago there were huge fights on the net that 1.5 HP did a good job. That is totally disproved into days word.

I under stand the money problem, been there. Sweat equity can cut the cost of a big Cyclone or single stage blower by 2/3s. The Bill Pentz site even has plans for a blower housing made from MDF That works better then most of the ones you buy. A sheet of $15-$20 mdf and some time and its a start. Scale the plans for the size of the motor and and impeller you have. Impellers 14"+ are a spare part item at the major suppliers and affordable . A 2-3 HP used motor, 3450 /230 V and you have a unit cheaper then HF . If your a real wood worker making anything is great fun including tools.

I should have mentioned you can use a 14" or larger impeller with a 1.5HP motor if you restrict the inlet and size the restriction to limit the amp draw to fit the motor. This way you can use the blower in the future for other projects like a bigger single stage or cyclone. Try to find a used motor that has wiring for both 120 or 230V. The Pentz site has a full size print out for a 14" size impeller blower housing that is very easy to build. There are both CW and CCW motors , impellers and cyclones so make sure all components match. A CW (clockwise) impeller in a CCW housing or cyclone or vice versa is a no no.

[Kevin W Johnson]

Another way to determine whats going on is with a clamp on Ammeter. Every shop needs one anyway and if you don't have one get one. You have to make an adapter to use it so you can grab one wire. A 12" length of 14-16 ga extension cord with plugs on both ends will do it. Remove 6" of the out side covering so you can reach the inside wires. Do not remove the insulation on the inside wires !!!. Then run either the black or white wire through the inside of the clamp so it's loose.



One of these can be real handy for such a situation.....

http://www.amazon.com/Reed-Line-Splitter-AC-006/dp/B003QUO9NK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1304834552&sr=8-4

[Chris Fournier]

[QUOTE=Aaron Rowland;1698988]

I'm really disappointed in the HF set up from what I have read. I've seen a lot of shops where the owner claimed he got good dust collection with a 1.5HP motor. Saw dust all over the place especially the floor. I could not get, what I consider, good collection with a 12" impeller 2HP 230 V system. What do you think the 5HP DC are popular for built ins? For portables 3HP is a minimum despite claims. However some people don't worry about lungs and allergies. To meet Osha etc. specs it takes a huge amount of power. Years ago there were huge fights on the net that 1.5 HP did a good job. That is totally disproved into days word.
QUOTE]

In my opinion the above is very poorly thought out and simply not true. Every now and then Aaron you throw in "OSHA" and some electrical/HP values yet you make most of your judgements "from what I have read"... I do agree with your amp clamp testing method but your opinions get pretty shakey after that.

Your HP comments are like saying that every car needs a V8 motor with 250 HP to function properly. Your DC needs to "fit" the equipment in any given shop, in many cases a 1.5HP DC that is well designed, installed and used properly will do a fine job. My Honda Fitt with a four banger and 117HP does a fine job as well.

I have a meager 3 HP metal ducted DC from Oneida, they told me that I didn't need the 5HP version and they were correct. My DC collects chips from a 16" jointer/planer, 12" - 14" TS and a large shaper a well as many sanders. All of these machines are served from 5" flex hose off of 5" spiral pipe branches. I do not have a dust problem in my shop.

Most shop dust problems originate at the source of the dust/chips, not from the DC, especially as we are talking Wynn filters, cyclones etc. in this thread. Single stage baggers may be a different story.

Keep it real!

[David Kumm]

It comes back to the fact that DC 's are very system specific. If you move a portable unit to the machine with a fairly short run, most baggers are fine. When you get into full shop collection with the need to capture both coarse shavings and fine dust it gets a lot more complicated. My 3hp 12+ impeller system was good for runs of about 30 ft with 7 or 8 drops. I generally only used them one at a time but each drop leaks some. When I expanded to several runs of 30 to 50 ft with 20+ drops, it takes a 5 hp unit. That unit is overkill for 80% but absolutely necessary since the 24" planer sits near the end. Intake and oulet pipe size, bag area , etc. all fit into the equation. The point is to realize what is necessary today and if you are planning on expansion. Less than 2hp is not meant for a permanent piped installation unless it is for a dedicated machine or two and then it begs the question, if you go to that effort, what is the cost of a 3hp upgrade vs the risk of inadequate performance? Dave

[Greg Peterson]

I have thought about opening up the intake on the HF DC. And while that mod is indeed low hanging fruit, fixing the impeller exhaust is likely to yield more benefit. DC at my tools is still a work in progress.

Through cuts on on stock under 1 1/2" are not much of a problem. I have to remove the Shark Guard on thicker cuts and then dust/chips are everywhere.

Router table is also messy. I can a lot of dust off the RAS, but I have more tweaking to do.

I use a short, 5" hose to hookup to each tool. I still feel I can the level of perform I need out of the HF DC.

[Dan Hintz]

Amp draw at 50% efficiency,120V, which is what you are going to get with a low cost Asian motor is-
1HP = 13AMP, 1.5 HP= 19.5Amps, 2HP = 26 Amps.

If you are an optimist and think you bought a 70% efficient motor from a low bidder the numbers for 120V are - 1 HP= 9.3amps, 1.5 HP = 14Amps, 2 HP = 18Amps.

At best the HF could be 1.5HP with a 11" impeller. At worst you have a 1HP with a 9.75" impeller. No way can a junk 1.5 HP motor run on a typical 120V, 20 amp house wiring.
From what airspace are you pulling your numbers? Even a cheaply constructed, made-in-a-basement brushless motor is going to be well above 75% efficient. Even brushed motors are going to be above 65-70%, probably 75% and above. Your "optimist" numbers are essentially the bottom of the heap.


I'm really disappointed in the HF set up from what I have read. I've seen a lot of shops where the owner claimed he got good dust collection with a 1.5HP motor. Saw dust all over the place especially the floor. I could not get, what I consider, good collection with a 12" impeller 2HP 230 V system. What do you think the 5HP DC are popular for built ins? For portables 3HP is a minimum despite claims. However some people don't worry about lungs and allergies. To meet Osha etc. specs it takes a huge amount of power. Years ago there were huge fights on the net that 1.5 HP did a good job. That is totally disproved into days word.
HP versus quality of dust collection is like equating quality of gas versus how fast a Yugo can go... they're only partially related. A 1.5HP DC provides plenty of suction (my cheap HF red DC worked just fine), as long as you have set your collection up correctly, i.e., next to the cause of the shavings. A 10HP unit isn't going to collect a lot of shavings if its collection point is 10' away from the source. OSHA specs are not related to power, either, they're related to how well your collection system works.

[Greg Peterson]

Dan - +1.

The most powerful DC is still dependent on an effective collection system at the point of dust creation. Obviously, the bigger units create the advantage of using a network of ducting alleviating the somewhat cumbersome and occasionally irritating task moving and hooking up the DC unit.

To each his own. I do monitor the particle count in my shop via the Dylos particle counter. It spikes after cuts but settles down fairly quickly thanks to the small space and the effective Jet AFS-1000B.

Now I must get out in the shop and get busy and finishing hanging the drywall and start mudding.

[David Hostetler]

FYI - I keep seeing reports of the HF DC having an 11.75" impeller, I can say definitively that that was _not_ true on the one I just bought, it was only 9.75" (I took off the shroud an measured it). I don't doubt that some of the older ones may well have been 11.75", but that's not what arrived at my door a few weeks back (I also realize that this says nothing about what might arrive at person X's door next week...).

The other explanation is that some folks measure things as a little bigger than they might actually be, so maybe its just natural inflation :D

It all depends on HOW you measure it. I measured from the center point of the impeller out to the furthest point of the impeller. I do not recall how large mine was, but I know it was bigger than 9-3/4". I think it was closer to 5-1/2" radius x 2 would be 11" diameter... Since if you measure from furthest point to furthest point, if you go straight across the center line, you end up in air, the blades are not directly across from each other, so in order to get an accurate measurement you have to measure radius and multiply... At least that was the config on mine...

[Aaron Rowland]

From what airspace are you pulling your numbers? Even a cheaply constructed, made-in-a-basement brushless motor is going to be well above 75% efficient. Even brushed motors are going to be above 65-70%, probably 75% and above. Your "optimist" numbers are essentially the bottom of the heap.
================================================== ================================================== ===================================
What airspace indeed! Where in the world did you come up with an el cheapo motor being over 75% efficient? Even general purpose Bador motors can't do that. I have a 2 HP Baldor catalog #L3515T that is setting on the shelf, a hold over when I was trying to figure the dust collection out. While my test for efficiency is not standard 112, method B I was able to get a comp against a 2HP Taiwan motor by a simple dyno test. The Baldor was between 70-75% and the Taiwan was below 50%. I trust Baldor, Taiwan so so.
You can check the Specs on the Baldor I mentioned and its listed by Baldor at 74%. To get much above that you have to go to a cap start/run motor. I mention this on another post about using a cap start/run motor on a cyclone.

An easy to read article on motors is www.kevinsbrady.net (http://www.kevinsbrady.net). Read it and learn a bit
If this is to simple for you check the DOE regulations or Bador on small , single phase motors. The also talk about 50-75% being typical. Kevin gives some typical numbers on 50% to 70 also.. The bad news is DOE is coming out with a new regulation in a couple of years up efficiency to over 84-85%. Wait to you see the price on this motor. Your comments of 75% plus for low end motors are dead wrong and nonsense.
================================================== ================================================== =====================================
HP versus quality of dust collection is like equating quality of gas versus how fast a Yugo can go... they're only partially related. A 1.5HP DC provides plenty of suction (my cheap HF red DC worked just fine), as long as you have set your collection up correctly, i.e., next to the cause of the shavings. A 10HP unit isn't going to collect a lot of shavings if its collection point is 10' away from the source. OSHA specs are not related to power, either, they're related to how well your collection system works.
================================================== ================================================== =======
The HF is not a 2 HP and is looking more and more to be like a 1HP. Any body can stamp any number they want on a motor case and they do. The main thing that counts is the impeller diameter for moving air not HP numbers. Saying a 1.5HP is good enough with out knowing the impeller diameter is worthless.. Also what is plenty of suction you mention for a 1.5HP motor?? Numbers please. Some assumption have to made, I assume no one places their pickup 10'/ from the DC pickup. So why a statement like this?

[Alan Bienlein]

================================================== ================================================== =======
The HF is not a 2 HP and is looking more and more to be like a 1HP. Any body can stamp any number they want on a motor case and they do. The main thing that counts is the impeller diameter for moving air not HP numbers. Saying a 1.5HP is good enough with out knowing the impeller diameter is worthless.. Also what is plenty of suction you mention for a 1.5HP motor?? Numbers please. Some assumption have to made, I assume no one places their pickup 10'/ from the DC pickup. So why a statement like this?

Well impeller diameter don't mean squat if you don't have the horse power to drive it without having to choke it off!

[Bob Riefer]

Aaron wrote:


I'm really disappointed in the HF set up from what I have read. I've seen a lot of shops where the owner claimed he got good dust collection with a 1.5HP motor. Saw dust all over the place especially the floor.


I have 4" pvc around the shop using the blower mentioned here. My miter saw, table saw, and jointer are each about 10-12 foot runs with minimal bends. My band saw, drill press, and planer are about 30 foot runs with a couple 90's on the way. After working with white oak for hours the other night, I had a bag full of chips and dust, and about a dust pan full left on the floor/tables to sweep up. Sure, I couldn't pass a white glove test (i.e. the fine dust is still lurking and will have to be caught by the air cleaner or respirator) but I'd consider this to be pretty good results from a system that cost me $250 total to install soup to nuts.

If the goal is to have 5hp motor + huge impeller + cyclone level of clean in your shop, this solution ain't it. But if the goal is to have a cleaner shop, and save quite a bit of money, I think it is very reasonable to hard plumb the harbor freight unit as I've done.

My main intent for replying at all is that I was in total analysis paralysis mode when learning about all this dust collection stuff. This stuff will stop someone new to dust collection in their tracks. But, the affordable solution is still a nice setup. Someday I'll upgrade, but until then, I'll be working in a tidy shop.

[David Hostetler]

I'm really disappointed in the HF set up from what I have read. I've seen a lot of shops where the owner claimed he got good dust collection with a 1.5HP motor. Saw dust all over the place especially the floor. I could not get, what I consider, good collection with a 12" impeller 2HP 230 V system. What do you think the 5HP DC are popular for built ins? For portables 3HP is a minimum despite claims. However some people don't worry about lungs and allergies. To meet Osha etc. specs it takes a huge amount of power. Years ago there were huge fights on the net that 1.5 HP did a good job. That is totally disproved into days word.

I beg to differ. I KNOW where the weak points in my dust collection system are, and it is not the DC itself. You fail to take into account that many people fail to collect above the table on table saws, band saws and the like, give little to no effort on any tool beyond the most basic factory installed dust ports, which in most cases are simply ineffective. Combine that with tight bends in ducting, and worse, LOTS of flex hose and it's no surprise when you see sawdust all over a shop. The collector is but a single component of a much larger system. Yes big cyclones are good. But a single bagger can be a good solution as well. Not as good, but not totally worthless as you seem to imply. You won't see dust around any of my tools that I have rigged with proper collection, but those that are still in progress, certainly post a serious problem. Which is why I spend so much time and effort into building the dust hoods and fittings that I have. Simply speaking, you can run a 5HP cyclone all day long, but if your ducting and hoods aren't up to the task, you are making a lot of noise, sucking a lot of electricity, and getting little accomplished... I honestly would like to finish up my dust collection projects, and then grab a Dylos meter to see just how effective in real world application this whole endeavor has been...

[Curt Harms]

"I honestly would like to finish up my dust collection projects, and then grab a Dylos meter to see just how effective in real world application this whole endeavor has been..."

That's a side of the dust collection argument that is frequently ignored, probably because it's hard to measure. Getting big chips is convenient and with some machines e.g. planers important. But for me at least, the nearly invisible particles finding their way to my respiratory tract and lungs is of greater consequence than a messy floor. Wood chips on the floor don't have the potential to cause respiratory disease and cancer.

[Alan Schaffter]

Now we are getting to the real issue! Everyone needs to remember OSHA standards are intended to protect the lungs from fine dust in a commercial environment. To meet them you need a certain, minimum amount of CFM at each machine. That CFM was determined by measuring the amount of dust created by each machine and the air flow required to collect it at the machine AND from the nearly invisible cloud that rapidly expands in all directions, from it. Most of the numbers start at about 400 CFM and go up from there! CFM at the machine is not enough, they need properly designed and sized air channels, dust shrouds, and ports. Few, if any, consumer grade machines are up to the task- think about the amount of dust that can escape from a typical drum sander or a tablesaw without over-blade dust pickup. Few consumer grade DC's are up to the task as well, especially when configured by the user in a fixed/ducted system that snakes around a small shop and is connected to machines with lengths of flex.

The answer is you do what you can with what you can afford. But don't fool yourself into thinking you can meet or come close to OSHA standards with a 1.5 - 2 hp "dust pump" (bag style, single-stage DC) or for that matter most consumer grade dust collection equipment connected to most consumer grade woodworking machines via an elaborate duct system. If you have health issues then wear a good mask, buy a Dylos particulate meter, and spend whatever money it takes to get as close as you can to OSHA standards. If all you can afford is a HF DC, then hook it up in the best possible a configuration for max CFM -right at the machine you are using- and for best disposal- discharge outside, with no filter. Saying a particular DC "works fine" or it "leaves my shop clean" really means absolutely nothing- What is the .5 - 25 micron particulate count (you are breathing) at the machine you are using and what is it like 30 minutes after you stop?

[Bob Riefer]

Alan, your post is very good (as expected) and the only thing I have any issue with is:



Saying a particular DC "works fine" or it "leaves my shop clean" really means absolutely nothing


Well, sure it means something, and saying otherwise is a bit misleading in my opinion. For many, working in the shop a couple hours a week and willing to wear a respirator sometimes / full time, leaving the shop clean definitely means that the DC is, in fact, working fine.

My fear is that some, like I was, will be scared off and think "holy cow, I shouldn't attempt any dust control at all if I can't achieve boy in bubble air quality". I think that an affordable solution that keeps the shop tidy, combined with something for your lungs (exhaust through a wynn filter or outside, wear a respirator), is a perfectly acceptable solution for most of the hobbyist population.

Each day, I sit in traffic surrounded by car fumes, catch a waft of 2nd hand cigarette smoke, breathe dust kicked up by my mower or string trimmer, sneeze due to the pollen count etc. etc. etc. I'm willing to argue that from this perspective, it's reasonable to assume that I'll be alright if I walk through my clean-to-my-eyes shop without a respirator.

That said.. if my time spend for this hobby grows considerably, and money isn't an issue, I would definitely upgrade my DC system mainly to reduce the the time spent wearing a respirator.

[Alan Schaffter]

Alan, your post is very good (as expected) and the only thing I have any issue with is:



Well, sure it means something, and saying otherwise is a bit misleading in my opinion. For many, working in the shop a couple hours a week and willing to wear a respirator sometimes / full time, leaving the shop clean definitely means that the DC is, in fact, working fine.

My fear is that some, like I was, will be scared off and think "holy cow, I shouldn't attempt any dust control at all if I can't achieve boy in bubble air quality". I think that an affordable solution that keeps the shop tidy, combined with something for your lungs (exhaust through a wynn filter or outside, wear a respirator), is a perfectly acceptable solution for most of the hobbyist population.

Each day, I sit in traffic surrounded by car fumes, catch a waft of 2nd hand cigarette smoke, breathe dust kicked up by my mower or string trimmer, sneeze due to the pollen count etc. etc. etc. I'm willing to argue that from this perspective, it's reasonable to assume that I'll be alright if I walk through my clean-to-my-eyes shop without a respirator.

That said.. if my time spend for this hobby grows considerably, and money isn't an issue, I would definitely upgrade my DC system mainly to reduce the the time spent wearing a respirator.

I can't argue with that, but my point was comments like "I have XXX", "it works fine", "it really sucks," "I like it", and the tons of similar comments I see in most of these threads, by themselves without details, without metrics, or without a frame of reference, don't say a thing. They contain absolutely no information that the reader can use to make a value judgement. You might as well say I like white, yellow, or clear cyclones.

[Dan Hintz]

You might as well say I like white, yellow, or clear cyclones.
We all know red adds 100 more CFM at 6" of H20.

[Dan Friedrichs]

We all know red adds 100 more CFM at 6" of H20.

Lies! We all know the *RED* paint has a higher friction coefficient against the air! :)

[Dan Hintz]

Lies! We all know the *RED* paint has a higher friction coefficient against the air! :)
Fine, I'm patenting my low-friction red paint... then at least one of us in this thread can have a real patent.