Does Oneida have something to fear from Grizzly?

[Frank Pellow]

Oneida has published what I regard as an over-reaction to an ad on the Grizzly web site.

The Grizzly add can be found at: http://www.grizzly.com/products/featured/dustcollectors/compare.cfm?&gid=F1CE2D6C-6A47-4CCA-B1BA-7EE1F7A7D36C&site=grizzly

The Oneida reaction can be found at: http://synergy.oneida-air.com/public/docs/BDDocument.asp?Action=View&ID=%7B4D3050E4-AA4B-4248-9514-B58A8E301F8F%7D&ReturnTo=BDFPView%2Easp%3FLayout%3DDOC

One thing to note is that the Grizzly system is not yet available so there will not yet be any real independent comparison tests.

But, when I see company react to a competitor the way that Oneida has to Grizzly, it always makes me think that the competitor may, indeed, have a product that I should consider.

[Mark J Bachler]

But, when I see company react to a competitor the way that Oneida has to Grizzly, it always makes me think that the competitor may, indeed, have a product that I should consider.[/QUOTE]




Why?

I think Oneida has a valid complaint.

[Jim Becker]

If what Oneida says is true, shame on Grizzly. Competition is good, but honest competition is better because it's more meaningful. I work in high-dollar technical sales and I would in no way ever misrepresent a competitor's products or solutions. It degrades me personally, not to mention puts my own solutions in question. I'm not saying what Grizzly did or did not do, only that if they are not representing their products accurately and honestly, I'm very disappointed.

As to testing, I can attest that Onieda DOES buy and test competitor's machines...I've seen them with my own eyes when I spent a few hours at their facility in Syracuse last February when I was picking up my new cyclone system. (And there are some butt-ugly cyclones out there on the market!! ;) )

[Steve Evans]

When I looked at the Grizzly ad my feeling is that they make a lot of very vague claims without any empirical data. Whenever I see claims like that, my first thought is 'what a load of old-fashioned hockey pucks'. I think it's a very low form of advertising myself. I think Oneida has some very valid objections. Usual disclaimer, no affiliation, I don't even own an Oneida product.

Steve

[Brian Austin]

Personally, I never trust a manufacturer's own claims anyway. Too much is slanted toward marketing. Wait until a 3rd party review comes out from someone a little more reputable (the WOOD mag review was pretty good, iirc) and then see what happens.

I have noticed that, since 3rd party reviews have gotten more indepth, that Oneida's marketing literature is taking a more 'real life' direction in their numbers.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I have to agree with Onieda... if they did do the tests... show the two machines side by side :) Also, I want to see independent data before one company trashes another. Shame on them both...

[Chris DeHut]

I guess what strikes me as rather funny is this line...

"Grizzly didn't buy our units and they never did a comparison that's why they didn't publish any numbers, if they did they would find our units are much superior in Air volume (CFM) , price per CFM, filtration, noise levels, vibration, motor quality, overall engineering, much superior quality of fit and finish. "

As the Grizzly units are not even available yet, how can Oneida claim

"they would find our units are much superior in Air volume (CFM) , price per CFM, filtration, noise levels, vibration, motor quality, overall engineering, much superior quality of fit and finish."

Looks to me like both sides are playing the same game ;)

Chris DeHut

[Jim Fancher]

Looks to me like both sides are playing the same game ;) They are. :)

The Grizzly cyclone hasn't even hit the States yet. I'm looking forward to reading some real reviews of it.

As far as buying competitor's products, we do it all of the time in my industry. We tear down each unit and find it's weaknesses and strengths. It makes our products better.

In case you're wondering ... forklifts. You see ours every day at HD. :D

[Bob Marino]

Agree with Jim.

Also, I don't know the merits of the claims and how the tests were performed, but in my dealings with Oneida (I have the 2hp unit) I have always gotten accurate, helpful info and is a pleasure dealing with them. Companies like this seem to be increasingly harder to find - for more reasons than one :( .

Bob

[JayStPeter]

I guess Oneida had to say SOMETHING with all the talk going on in the forums about the new Grizzly units.
Honestly, I'd be concerned if I was Oneida. If the Grizzly units are even close to what they claim it's going to eat into their bottom line.

Hey Wood magazine, please test these things and show us where they fit relative to the others.

Jay

[Donnie Raines]

I rarely consider the third party reviews these days. Often there are advertising dollars involved that could sway some of the results reported....IMHO of coarse.

[Keith Christopher]

the thing I find funny about the Onedia rant is, they are slamming a pre-marketing adver from grizzly. I would think (knowing grizzly) that there will be more detailed info forthcoming. If you look at what grizzly does and spectrum of what they sell, it's like walmart moving in on your turf. Early response will maybe catch early converts but in the long run, the competition will cause better products, more features for lower costs. The statement where Onedia talks about the chinese built motor _vs_ the american motor is kinda funny IMHO.



Keith

[Terry Hatfield]

I personally don't like either company making claims like "mine is better than yours" with one of the players not even in the retail marketplace yet. How can Oneida "know" anything about the Griz since there are none to even look at yet???? They say the Griz is spot welded. How can they possibly know this?????? Just because they didn't sell a unit directly and ship it directly to Griz does not mean that Griz doesn't have units from Oneida. Seems logical to me if anyone were going into any commercial venture that they would want to know what the main competition had to offer and would most likely not just call them up and order a few to find out. Saying that Griz does not have their units to test is nuts and just because Griz does not have curves on their site right now doesn't mean that they don't have them or are not going to post them.

As far as the design/engineering issue is concerning, contrary to what some would have us believe cyclones are not rocket science. The basic design has been around for decades. Sure there are dimensions and features that make one particular cyclone perform better than another but those are certainly no design secret. Saying that someone "stole" their engineering is way off base in my opinion. If you look at the pics of the 2 units in question here you will notice alot of things that are similar as there are in ANY cyclone comparison and some differences as there are in any different manufacturer's/vendor's cyclone. The stolen engineering deal is way wrong in my book.

Honestly, I wish neither company would market this way. I am anxious to see and touch the Griz cyclones. The Griz units will not be available for a month or so and there is simply no way that ANYONE can know what level of fit and finsih, performance, filtering or any other aspect of the units or how they will comapre to the Oneida's or any others until there are in the hands of someone that can properly test and compare.

Time will tell the story here. Oneida has a great reputation and certainly has the lead as far a experience and engineering goes but the price point of the Grizzly's will certainly cause many to opt for them if the performance is there. If the performance is not equal to or more than Oneida this whole deal is a non-issue.

Terry

edit: BTW...Grizzly rep on "that other wwing forum" posted pics of Oneida shipments siting in Grizzly's warehouse. I have every confidence there will be comparions including blower curves when there are Grizzly units to test. All of the hub-bub is just that unitl then.

[David Dixson]

I would add to what you gentlemen are saying that I've read on another forum where a poster who named himself "Papagrizzly" and who admittedly works for or owns Grizzly, stated before they put out their most recent review on their website, that "Grizzly did not start this fight" and that "If Oneida thinks they were going to eliminate the competition, they haven't seen competition yet."

I was left, having read what was on the Grizzly website about the Oneida incident before the most recent postings, that Oneida perhaps had been the one had attacked first, thereby stirring up and angering the Grizzly (grin) to the point the Grizzly is now attacking.

Having said all that, I don't think I'll buy a machine from either vendor. Were I to decide to put together a cyclone system, I would go with a Bill Pentz kit and build it myself. I feel strongly, having read his website, he has done more for advancing the case of woodworking safety processes in the dust collection area than any other human being on the planet. That being said, I would like to reward that effort by sending my hard-earned dollars his way. If he sold a machine, I'd buy the machine from him, regardless of costs (and you know, if you've ready my jointer/planer posts or table saw posts I'm normally tight fisted money wise), simply because he deserves to make the money, he earned it with the information he's researched and put on his website.

Just my .02,

Dave

[mike lucas]

<st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city>Oneida is running scared! They are a very small company, with their entire means of staying afloat in jeopardy.
They have no idea if Grizzly bought any or each of their cyclones, they may be jumping in to a bottomless pit. If I were the spokesman for Oneida<st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city>, I would have waited until the Grizzly cyclones were released before I jumped off the cliff.

In my opinion, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city> Oneida feels a lot of heat on this, and they are more then a little scared. <st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city> Oneida should focus on making the best cyclone for the lowest possible price, and forget about what Grizzly may or may not be coming out with.

I think the new Grizzly just may be a keeper from what I have seen and read as of now.:eek:

[Jerry Olexa]

He doth protest too much... and.. Where's there's smoke, there's fire..These come to mind as I read. There must be some substance to one of these positions, Time will tell which one and it well be interesting following it....Thanx for posting...

[mike lucas]

Hey Wood magazine, please test these things and show us where they fit relative to the others.

Jay I sure wouldn't trust anything Wood magazine ever reports!:eek: It's not like they are a trusted company when it comes to showing the real winner. They show a huge bias just as you or I would. On top of that, they take dollars from these companies, making any test, an opinion. I will never trust any of these magazines to pick where my monies go! :confused:

I don't understand why you want Wood to do a test too compare the two.:rolleyes:

[Steven Wilson]

Well Grizzly is blowing some stinky smoke out of there A$$ with their ad. As Oneida correctly points out, Grizzly fails to publish fan curves or any relevant information on their filters - typical Grizzly nonsense. It will be interesting to see some production units tested. As for cleaning filters, Oneida's method is typical industry practice and works fine on their filter material - Grizzly's inference is plain BS.

[Greg Mann]

The easiest way to enhance your status is to claim you have surpassed the industry benchmark, and at a lower cost to boot. To me, this claim rings hollow without documentation of the particulars. Oneida has been in the forefront of desseminating specific performance parameters and stating their philosophical justifications for design decisions. It is my perception, for example, that many of the critical characteristics that Bill Pentz has championed have been points of focus in Oneida's designs. I do not mean to speak for Bill, and he might like to comment, but that is my perception from filtering through observations presented in various venues.

When a company becomes known as the benchmark in an industry it winds up with a bullseye on its back. It seems perfectly logical to me that said company would become weary of being in someone's crosshairs and sensitive to what it considers as inaccurate ambushing. Once claims are made, they tend to take on a life of their own, and establish a certain level of credibility only by virtue of having been stated, especially to the casual observer. I have a gnawing feeling that this may lie at the heart of Grizzly's marketing strategy.

Greg

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys,
I think this goes a little deeper than this add war. I believe Bill Pentz mentions on his website that he ahd some suggestions at one time to improve the designs of cyclones and Grizzly kind of snubbed him off. I also believe he then stated they came back to him to talk and thus a "new design" is coming out that he knows nothing about. I am sure Bill could clarify this if he cares/can comment on this.

Set asside the adds for a moment. I do feel that Oneida is scared in some ways and they do have a right to but not because of just performance......it has a lot to do with price and what, we the American public, are willing to buy. I just kind of went through this on "another forum" that I rarely ever visit. What bothers me is these companies that are dealing with the Asian market. Asia is buying our, USA made products and Eureopean made products, copying them, making inferior products (most of the time) and then selling their version back to us while deeply undercutting our costs. How, by paying next to nothing...... Our solid wood furniture industry has been severely hurt by China's "dumping" into our country. Thus all of the anti-dumping laws trying to be implimented in this country. What happend to companies like PM and Delta?? They no longer make their products here in the US (hardly any of them are at least). I would say it has mostly to do with companies like Grizzly and for that matter all companies that import from Asia. Why are they doing so well? because we as consumers are shopping on price most of the time. I am not trying to chastise anyone here just trying to make an observation. While at a recent WW'g show where I manned a both for a company I support (at least as a good paying happy customer) I heard from the guy from the sawmill company that he had one of his machines bought from some "Asian" individual/company and when it returned it came back with dots all over it! This means they had a laser/computer copying the machine inch for inch, I guess so they can duplicate it. Has anyone seen the new Grizzly adds in Wood & Wood Products and CSB? They are showing some new sliding table saws. Guess what they ressemble? MiniMax, Felder and Altendorf!!!!!

If we as a country do not watch ourselves and promote our own companies and the European market they will eventually kill all of our industries.

By the way, something else that has been bugging me for a while... Carl Eyman (sp?) I agree with you. Shame on Norm for showing such a cheap way to make a joint (doweling a chair) I know he was most likely forced into it by his promotion department but those chairs sure do not last!! I am only 34 and I have seen many doweled joints fail

[Andy Pedler]

Despite the truthfullness of the Grizzly claims, it is downright foolish for Oneida to respond to them. By publishing any response (especially an inflamatory one like this that takes a defensive posture) they lend validity to Grizzly's claims. That's how marketing works. If they didn't respond to Grizzly like this, chances are nobody would notice. They've simply given Grizzly a great deal of publicity, which I'm sure Grizzly appreciates.

[Jim Hinze]

I know I haven't been 'round the creek that long, but I'll chime in with my $.02 .. having owned a business in the past...

Grizzly made thier claims from already published test data available in the public domain (regarding the onieda unit) and was probably quoting either test results from the MFG or expected performance based on cyclone design with regard to their unit... This is good for marketing hype, but not in the way it was presented... as a challenge/attack on oneida. When their product hits the states and we get real numbers, then take this marketing tact.

Oneida, rather than taking the high road and remaining silent until real world test can be performed, gives the appearance of running scared and the cry-baby appearance of "You stole my design"...

Honestly, if I were in the market for a cyclone, based on the behavior of these two companies, neither would get my business... I'd build my own or seek out Penn State or Woodsucker.

[Ted Harris]

But, when I see company react to a competitor the way that Oneida has to Grizzly, it always makes me think that the competitor may, indeed, have a product that I should consider.

It was in fact Grizzly that attacked Oneida. :confused: It is obvious that Grizzly is hoping that people will just automatically believe everything they say without proof of their claims. :eek:
IMHO, Oneida was very professional in their rebuttal. Their website has results from all testing done, and others have tested as well, and links are provided. Doesn't sound like they have anything to hide. :cool: Where are Grizzly's test results? :eek:
I personally have spent countless hours researching vacuum systems, and the hands down conclusion by most all experts is that Oneida is the best. The fact is, you get what you pay for. :D

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys,
This is a post by Bill Pentz on the FOG. It is a very informative post and I believe it has the info i was saying about Grizzly not wanting his initial help.
Paul

"As many of you know I have invested a little time researching dust
collection and cyclones. I am most appreciative of the help from
Oneida-Air and many commercial dust collection firms for helping with
my education. That education was necessary because after a lifetime
of woodworking I had become very sensitive to wood dust. My mad 1994
Christmas rush left me in the hospital with near terminal double
pneumonia. Like many in this group, my career and life left me able
to buy pretty much any woodworking toy I wanted and I had a full shop
of some of the finest European and American equipment available.
Unwilling to give up my life-long hobby and sometimes profession, I
bought all the "best" hobbyist dust collection equipment recommended
primarily by Rick Peters in his DC book. Four years later my 1999
Christmas rush put me back in the hospital again with near fatal
double pneumonia. I spent six months in bed on oxygen, mostly working
with the Internet to figure out what went wrong and why, then
designing my own cyclone dust collection solution.

I learned that much of the common knowledge I was raised with from my
professional woodworking father was dead wrong. Air at the volumes
and speeds we use in dust collection is more like water in that it
will barely compress at all. Any restriction, length of small pipe,
small machine port, etc. will kill airflow. I had to revise my mental
model of dust collection from my experience with vacuum cleaners that
run at roughly eighteen times higher pressures, to one of a flowing
stream. We live in that stream of air and what our dust collectors do
is tap that flow getting pretty much only the amount of water (air)
that can be carried by the size pipe we are using. The idea of air
squeezing around small obstructions and speeding up in smaller pipes
is a fiction. This mean that all our hobbyist systems designed with
all different sized pipes were dead wrong because with just one gate
open, we lacked the air to keep from getting piles and plugging in
our larger mains. The other major paradigm shift required was for me
to start thinking about dust collection in terms of sucking. Try to
move an balloon with a straw by blowing and it is easy, but trying to
move one by sucking is tough. Air being sucked pulls roughly equally
in all directions. This expanding sphere has the airspeed fall off at
pi times the cube of the distance. An optimal system designed to move
4000 FPM keeps both vertical and horizontal runs from plugging, but
that 4000 FPM turns into far less than 50 FPM just a few inches from
our tools. The 50 FPM is the absolute minimum to ensure that normal
room air currents do not disperse our air all over. Because FPM
equals CFM/duct area we can compute backward and it turns out that
nothing less than 800 CFM is ample to provide 50 FPM around our dusty
operations whether hand sanding or using a power tool ample to keep
the fine dust from spreading all over. We need all 6" ducting to
carry that 800 CFM unless we step up to a huge oversized blower and
impeller. That means I had to change out my expensive commercial
mostly 4" ducting plus make new machine hoods sand dust collection
ports.

I then tested the dust collectors made by Jet, PowerMatic, Grizzly,
PSI, Reliant, Laguna Tools, ShopSmith, Cincinnati Fans, New York
Blower, CFI, and others. ShopSmith and Jet made the only hobbyist
dust collectors that actually performed both in airflow and filtering
as advertised. All other hobbyist dust collectors came with
inaccurate ratings on maximum airflow, filtering, or both. I could
not even force many to achieve their advertised maximums leaving me
certain these numbers were created in the advertising back rooms
instead of any engineering shop. Our real workshops add between
4" to 10" of real resistance. Nothing less than a 1.5 hp motor turning
an 11" diameter impeller will move the needed 800 CFM. For that to
work you need a clean filter and no more than 10' of smooth walled
flex hose all 6" in diameter. To that we need to add more impeller
and motor to overcome the resistance of our shops added by ducting
and a separator. Almost all need at least a 2 hp motor turning a 12"
impeller do capture the fine dust by getting a real 800 CFM to our
machines with no separator. Adding a separator pushes that to a 3 hp
motor turning a 14" diameter impeller to move than much air.

The 3 hp dust collectors were expensive and still would not work
because of impeller and filtering problems. The PSI 3 hp used too
small an impeller as did the Grizzly and most other Chinese made
imports. Again Jet was the only hobbyist vendor who provided a unit
that actually worked at the claimed maximum airflow ratings. Even
with it, by the time I added my ducting actual performance was about
half that rated. In fact, figure about half the maximum performance
as a reasonable estimate of actual working performance for any dust
collection blower. I also tested at UCD the filter bags from Grizzly,
PSI, Highland Hardware, Jet, PowerMatic, Delta, Woodtec, and Rockler.
Two of my professor friends conducted similar independent tests at
their universities. We all got identical results. The reputable
makers accurately advertised 30-micron filter bags and the rest
claimed filtering levels that could not be reached until their
filters were so plugged they would hardly pass air. Any could and did
claim any level of filtering desired by simply clogging their filters
until they got the desired performance. Worse, all of these bags
including my custom tall bags, had less than on tenth the surface
area recommended by ASHRAE, the independent society of heating and
air conditioning engineers. As a result, all of these bag type
filters plugged quickly killing the airflow needed for good dust
collection. Going with their recommended roughly one foot of filter
area for each 1 CFM of airflow was going to leave me with no shop
unless I moved to cartridge filters. Moreover, I needed to get into
the expensive cartridges that provided full airflow while filtering
down to 0.5-micron particle sizes. I decided to live with more
cleaning and shorter filter life and bought a pair of expensive 0.2-
micron Donaldson/Torit filters and mounted them on my dust collector,
wrote up the results, and not long after saw Jet sort of copied me
with their canister unit.

Although a clever solution, this worked terribly because my filters
quickly clogged. Adding a separation screen saved the filters but
left me cleaning the screen every few minutes of use. The only way to
clean my shop air without blowing my air outside was to use a cyclone
separator to get rid of most of the particles before they got to
those filters. I added a Grizzly trashcan separator sold by
Woodstock, their sister division. It worked well at pulling off the
sawdust, but killed the airflow at my machines by adding 4.5" of
resistance. Worse, it sent all the fine dust right into my filters
anyway and it went right past my screen. I surrendered bought an
early PSI cyclone then made or at least engineered by Oneida-Air, and
found it worked worse than my DC with the trashcan separator. PSI
used the same 10.5" diameter impeller on every unit from their
1.5 to their 3 hp blower getting not on lick better performance out
of their expensive 3 hp dust collectors and cyclones than they did
out of their 1.5 hp units. After a long ugly fight with them I gave
up losing my shirt financially. I then built a Wood Magazine copy of
the same unit and it worked even worse gravely under powered and
barely giving me 350 CFM at my machines. That convinced me to buy an
Oneida-Air cyclone.

Brian Lamb and others advised me they were not really happy with
their Oneida-Air cyclones either. A friend of mine had one and I
spent a lot of time with it working out its problems and recommended
he replace that internal filter with a pair of external filters
similar to mine. It still had clogging problems when making certain
types of chips and dumped virtually all the fine dust into the
filters making for a constant cleaning problem. It turns out that PSI
and Wood Magazine cyclones that copied that same design had the same
problems.

A little research showed me that all of these copied the original 7.5
hp Delta cyclone designed for a small one or two person shop. That
unit was placed outside and used a bag separator with the fine dust
just blowing away. The Oneida-Air version designed by Dr. Witter used
a larger cyclone so it could be powered with a smaller motor, but
maintained the same dimensions. Those dimensions came from early
agricultural work where cyclones were designed with horrid internal
turbulence to break loose grain from chaff and separate cotton fiber
from dirt and sand. They simply blew the lighter particles out the
top, so this design is worthless for fine dust separation. An
elongated inlet misnamed an neutral vane keeps the internal
turbulence down some creating a cyclone with only about 4" of
resistance, but still something that is terribly inefficient and
needs at least a 3 hp motor turning not less than a 14" impeller
to assure getting our needed 800 CFM at our machines. I did a lot of
research and ended up going with a far more efficient design then
added to that design my own improvements to make it even better in
terms of reduced resistance and increased separation. I added a long
inlet to stabilize the incoming air, added an angle to that inlet
with spiral air ramp to keep the air from crashing into itself and
minimize resistance, and I did the engineering calculations to
redesign the cone dimensions for optimal fine dust separation. I also
came up with the efficient airfoil blower suitable for small shops
and an appropriately sized and powered material handling impeller for
medium to large shops. The results work well giving less than
2.5" resistance with roughly a ten fold advantage in terms of fine
dust separation over the other cyclone designs. I have one firm that
CNC machines MDF all day long generating many 55-gallon barrels of
dust every week. MDF will clog other cyclone filters in minutes, but
they only had a few tablespoons full of fine dust after two months of
operation.

Currently I only recommend dust collection from Felder, the 3 hp
Oneida-Air cyclone, the WoodSucker II, and my designs either in the
form of kits or plastic Clear Vue units from Ed Morgano. Nothing else
in the hobbyist world has the ability to move enough air and provide
ample filtering without rapid filter clogging or poor fine dust
separation. Fortunately, the increased industry awareness in this
area, plus a lot of work will hopefully soon be generating big
changes. Oneida-Air has been one of my strongest supporters and I
freely helped them as I went making recommendations for efficiency,
impeller, and filter improvements that are now on all their 2 hp and
larger units. I also helped WMH (PowerMatic and Jet) with new designs
that hopefully will be coming out soon in their new commercial
product lines. PSI and I got into a fairly heated fight over my
comments about their pretty, but poor quality products. I ended up
contracting with them last fall and revised their blower and cyclone
designs. Their new units with whatever changes they choose to make
should be available soon. I similarly got into more than a little
heated battle with Grizzly over their flagrant testing of blowers
with impellers bigger than they actually shipped. We fought ourselves
into a mutual cold war with Grizzly announcing a whole new line of
hobbyist cyclones late last year. My evaluation based upon looking at
the pictures of the prototypes proved right on, these units were
garbage and worked poorly for indoor use just like the early units
they copied. Bill Crofoot with Grizzly swallowed his pride and came
to me for advice. We worked through why those new units had problems
with his taking my recommended repairs from my web pages. I
understand what they plan on shipping in the next few months will be
totally different units far closer to my design, it not my design
exactly. I'm not very bright because I got nothing from any of
these firms other than a few test products that were of no use.
Regardless, we are going to see lots of excellent offerings later
this year. Meanwhile, please protect your respiratory health so you
don't end up like me sucking on an oxygen hose and only able to stand
or walk a couple of hours a day.

bill"

[John Renzetti]

Bill Pentz' post on the FOG (Felder Owners Group) recently was really informative. For those here that are FOG members I made it into a pdf file in the files section. Paul beat me to posting it here. Thanks for helping Paul.
I just took a look at the Grizzly link. I really don't like the way that Grizzly is presenting their new cyclone. To me it's a turn off when the whole campaign focuses on one particular company and their product. I don't know who started what, but this ad campaign is just overkill.
One other thing I question is what looks like a claim that their filters are the same as the European Class C rating. This rating is obtained from a standardized test done I believe by a government agency. The filter is subjected to quartz dust for a one hour period. For a class C rating the filter must capture 99.9% of the dust from .1 or .2 micron. For a Class G rating it is 99.5%. I think Oneida had tests done on their filters using the same controlled and standardized European test procedures. The Grizzly ad didn't mention the criteria for claiming the 99.9% filtration.
I'm sure the price will appeal to some but for me if I didn't already own the Felder RL160, the next choice would be the Oneida.
take care,
John

[Jeremy Bracey]

It's called marketing. I have to LOL when I read this. The fact that Oneida responded is ensuring EVERYONE knows that Griz came out with an at least mildly competitive unit. How many have you bought something that was a little cheaper than the top end because it was acceptable and much less expensive.

Grizz is trying to pre-sell units. That helps keep the cost down on thier initial purchase. Pre-sale marketing, so many companies do it. Compare it to the best, MANY companies do it.

Respond in a rant! Unheard of, just helps the other guy.

The way I look at it: 2 rounds to Grizzly 0 to Oneida.

[Michael Perata]

In a competition of price vs price, price almost always wins. Grizzly is selling price and offering their justification (true or not).

OAS should be scared. Their price is no longer an issue, OAS is over-priced by $500. Now OAS has to start justifying the $500 difference in terms of quality. Think of the problem as: Should I buy a Grizzly 1023 or a Powermatic 66.

BTW: I just bought an OAS 2hp Commerical model for $1,200. I was not aware of the Grizzly, but if I were, I would have looked at it.

[Keith Christopher]

You know Coke _vs_ Pepsi, ford _vs_ chevy. it's all the same they're all to make money. Clearly this is Walmart _vs_ <mom and pop shop> and they're scared.


Keith

[Andy London]

I was reading some of the posts on WOODNET from the fellow that's from Grizzly on this subject, apparently they had their own engineers design these neew units, it suprises me that they have not put any numbers out.

We can't buy Grizzly here in Canada, but with that kind of a price difference it would be worth a look. I have the 2 h.p. commercial unit from Onida and am very pleased with it, but getting it here was desperate expensive.

In any event, I think Oneida has had the market for some time and perhaps sees a threat around the corner.

[Greg Mann]

snipped
In any event, I think Oneida has had the market for some time and perhaps sees a threat around the corner.


Andy,

The threats are always around the corner. Would you have been tempted by the price if you found the performance to be less than what Grizzly is claiming?

[Norman Hitt]

Up front, let me say that I have no interest in either company, as I have a kit still waiting to be assembled, but just as an observation, I'll post.

I found it very interesting in the Griz ad that they made fantastic claims about how much stronger their materials were than the Onieda, and how much more CFM theirs would produce than Onieda, How much Thicker the Fan Housing was over the Onieda, yet made "Absolutely NO Comment" or description of either their FAN SIZE, fan material, type of Construction, or any Fan curves to back up their claim, (Or any data on Onieda's either) seems we're just supposed to take their "WORD" for gospel on pure faith, I guess. The Fan, to me, is the Absolute Heart of the machine and is the Basis for how much CFM the unit as a whole would be able to produce.

Therefore: My Opinion of their ad and claims............."Madison Ave Garbage" for a probably new version of mediocre performance machines. The other thing that bothered me was the Large, Clear Plastic bag under the filter. In my mind, if the Cyclone system is doing it's job Properly, that bag is about 10-15 times too large, unnecessary, and too easy to be damaged, because a GOOD performing cyclone should eliminate All the large dust particles, and MOST of the very fine ones as well, leaving only a very tiny volume of the fines that actually arrive at the filter.

I don't blame Onieda for wanting to make a statement against some/many of the obvious false claims, but I think they would have been better served by just making a statement reiterating the positive points about their units and a passing reference that a "Competitor Company" had made claims that were false about their product, without ever naming Grizzly.

I really don't care what company does it, but I "Flat Refuse" to do business with any company that runs down their competitor's machines, and I'm sorry to say that after reading this ad, I will be rethinking my "List" that had some Griz items on it until they change their marketing strategy.

That is one of the reasons I truly enjoy dealing with companys like MiniMax. If you ask them to compare their machine to another brand, they give you True facts and data about both machines, and Never Once, have I ever had any of their people Run Down Any Competitors machine, and further checking about the data they gave me proved to be absolutely correct for both machines in question. That's the kind of people/companies I like to deal with.

I also agree with others that Independant testing labs, with stated test parameters gives the only truly meaningful test results, and the ONLY Magazine test I had ANY confidence in was the one that AMW contracted out to an independant testing lab for testing shop air cleaners, and it was a very complete and meaningful test with all parameters and results listed.

OK, so I gave my .03 c instead of .02.

[Terry Hatfield]

Norman,

The fan sizes and construction is listed on all the Griz Cylones.

Terry

[Mark Duksta]

Here's one more thing to think about. Oneida, the most expensive unit out there is going to raise their prices. Their web site is advertising a "last chance" on 2004 prices.
I've been holding off on projects so that I could save enough money to buy an Oneida. They're making it tough. I guess they're not that worried about Grizzly.

Mark

[JayStPeter]

I sure wouldn't trust anything Wood magazine ever reports!:eek: It's not like they are a trusted company when it comes to showing the real winner. They show a huge bias just as you or I would. On top of that, they take dollars from these companies, making any test, an opinion. I will never trust any of these magazines to pick where my monies go! :confused:

I don't understand why you want Wood to do a test too compare the two.:rolleyes:

If you know of a better "independent" test of cyclone DCs, let me know. But for now, their test is the best we've got for getting measured numbers. If they test the new Grizzlys, at least there's a good chance the new tests are going to be done the same way as the others. So, apples to apples.

If you'd like to buy all the competitors and do a true test, all the better. Otherwise, who else is gonna do it?

Jay

[john lawson]

I have owned a Woodsucker DC for the past three years and I am very happy with it, so I have no dog in this fight between Oneida and Grizzly.

With that said, Oneida has plenty to worry about. When I was looking for a dust collector there were not many choices. Onieda was the most obvious but they were very expensive. Woodworkers are hands on people and Onieda wants to sell a "system", a very expensive system. I am not begrudging them a profit, any business has to make a profit. But as someone said in an earlier post, "it's not rocket science" Onieda makes money on their dust collectors and on the piping and fittings they sell, my guess is the real profit margin is in all the fittings. They have a great reputation for service that must be well deserved.

But they are sitting ducks for a company like Grizzly. Think about it, other than the motor and a bearing for the blower, there is nothing in a dust collector that requires any kind of precision. Once people like Bill Pentz and others have figured out the physics and put it out into the public domain, Onieda can no longer justify charging a premium price for something that should cost much less. When you think about all the woodworking machines we use, a dust collector is, or should be one of the simplest and most dependable pieces of equipment we buy, and the cheapest on a per pound basis. Until recently the market for someone like Grizzly has been relatively small. But with all of us baby boomers getting into woodworking in a big way, and with bigger machines and budgets, the market has grown very quickly. And that always attracts more competition.

If I were the president of Oneida, I would really begin to rethink my strategy. Oneida needs to get very lean, very quickly. They might have to take some of their manufacturing off shore, like Grizzly. And, they need to begin selling units and helping customers use PVC piping as a low cost alternative. The piping and fittings cost of one of their designs can cost as much as the dust collector. I have about $800 in my dust collector and maybe $250 in my PVC piping and fittings, and it works very well. Oneida still has two very big advantages over Grizzly; customer service and freight cost within the 48 states. If they can figure out how to produce a good product at a low cost, and still provide a good service they have a chance, otherwise forget it, Grizzly will eat their lunch.

Grizzly will make some mistakes along the way, apparently they have already put out some inferior products, but eventually they will get it right. And when they do, all of us woodworkers who lament the passing of U.S. manufacturing will line up to buy their dust collectors. Why? Because when it's all said and done, we have a responsibility to our own families not to spend a lot of extran money on something we can buy cheaper. As Americans, it's what we do.

[Greg Mann]

With all the posts I have read on DC, along with Bill Pentz's contributions, I have decided there is a little more rocket science in this than we think. It seems the attention to all the subleties is what makes the difference in performance. A little shortcut here and a little shortcut there and you seem to dramatically reduce performance. Of all the purchases we make, DC may carry the largest responsibility to get right. How many of us are going to be introducing our children and grandchildren to woodworking? We may be middle-aged, or older, and only be exposed for a decade or so, but we may be doing a disservice to those we love the most by not making sure we are investing wisely in the best DC we can afford. None of us ask the car dealer to put a cheaper set of brakes on a car so he can discount it a little more.

Grizzly may have upped the ante by improving their product, and Oneida may need to get better as well to stay at the top. But we should make careful choices because I would hate to see a quality outfit go down because those of us who buy these products did not do our homework.

[Norman Hitt]

Norman,

The fan sizes and construction is listed on all the Griz Cylones.

Terry

I guess I stand corrected then, but I just looked at the ad that came up from the link and clicked on all the buttons below the machines in the ad, and there was no mention there of the fan sizes, etc. That's what made me question why they made all the claims, but neglected to include that info in the ad in question, while emphasizing heavier materials in places that were not nearly as important, given the fact that the Onieda materials in those areas have never been questioned as to being made from material that was too light.

.......and NO, that isn't "Crawfisin'"
:D :D

[Andy London]

Andy,

The threats are always around the corner. Would you have been tempted by the price if you found the performance to be less than what Grizzly is claiming?

Yes, I should have added that to my post, it would be worth the drive if there was a third party that confirmed the numbers were even close to the Oneida due to the price difference.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I can hardly wait to see the outcome of this fight. I already have a Jet DC unit (not hooked up yet) so I have no need for a cyclone...yet. It will be interesting to see what the independent testers say about the units. The onus os on Grizzly though...Oneida has more than proven their quality.

Had I the choice right now, given the info I have, Oneida would get the nod.

[Gary Sutherland]

Everything I know about Oneida leads me to believe they make an excellent product and provide good customer service.There's not much else I can say about them.

We can only speculate about Grizzly's new collector entries at this point. However, Grizzly has kind of put their neck on the line in this debate, and will look foolish if they don't produce. That makes it interesting, because Grizzly has the money and engineering staff to make it happen IF THEY REALLY WANT TO. Apparently the cyclones have undergone significant upgrading even since their new ads and catalogs have come out, and they say the actual specs will be somewhat better than those already published.

They may let us down, but in this case my guess is that they won't, especially after all this publicity. As far as I know, Grizzly is a privately held company with one owner, and if he wants it to happen, he can make it happen.

Maybe both companies products will improve as a result of this confrontation. I'm not even in the market for a cyclone, so have no particular axe to grind; I'm just going to sit back and wait for the show!


Gary

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Any idea who the owner is?

[Gary Sutherland]

Kelly...

Shiraz Balolia, who also owns Woodstock/ShopFox.

Gary

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Maybe both companies products will improve as a result of this confrontation. I'm not even in the market for a cyclone, so have no particular axe to grind; I'm just going to sit back and wait for the show!


Gary
That is the best part! Both companies will improve, if in fact Grizzly does come out with a better machine! Onedia's only product is dust collection, so if they start getting beat on that, they need to do something about it. Plus, another competitor can only lower prices for us! :)

[Christopher Stahl]

I don't really want to speculate on the Grizzly at this point. One thing I do know is that you can only be the best for so long before someone else comes in does what you do better.

In the end, we'll win. Better products at better prices. If Grizzly lives up to their hype, it will get better sooner. Oneida will have no choice to improve their already great product and lower their prices so those who may not be able to afford their product, can.

As for the battle of words, it wasn't handled well. I for one do not like when a company puts down another company to make themselves look better. Grizzly, however, is coming out with a product that they feel will compete with the best. In order to compete with the best, they have to compare themselves against the best. Whether they are or not, time will tell.

Now Oneida has been on top for some time, but if they haven't been working on ways to improve their product, they've made a big mistake. This has been the demise of many companies that had it all and felt there would be no competition. I don't know if this is the case for Oneida. When you have a great product, you need to keep improving that great product.

My $0.02
chris

[Jim Becker]

Chris, you bring up some good points. When I had my "factory tour" at Oneida last spring, I was struck by several things. Their manufacturing, while taking advantage of high-tech things like automated CNC plasma cutters, etc., really still revolves around the skilled worker. I like that and it also provides employment to a bunch of folks in the Syracuse area. They also, more or less, are making systems "to order" and don't have a bunch of inventory sitting around like a mass-marketer that is importing must do. The "warehouse" has plenty of components for duct work, etc., but the cyclones are coming off the worker's stations, into boxes and out the door to customers. That's a whole different model than the other vendor in this discussion. Of the other "popular" hobbyist cyclone vendors, only Woodsucker is still in that type of arrangement.

Secondly, they are constantly working on product improvements...some that I saw back then have been rolled into the lineup and others are undoubtedly there for future deployment. They test the heck out of stuff and do it with real tools (Delta, Jet, Mini Max, etc) in a real shop right in the building.

One other thing that hasn't come up in this thread: Grizzly's offerings most certainly "threaten" in the hobbies space, especially for for the very cost conscious, no matter what their real performance turns out to be, but that's only a part of Onieda's business. They supply larger systems to professional shops, schools and industry and ONLY do dust collection. The 2-3hp systems that we all covet pale in comparison to the things going into those places. Grizzly, PSI, and Woodsucker don't play there at all. There is a different value proposition to that kind of business and those customers are not as price sensitive as the hobbyist woodworker is.

[JayStPeter]

One thing for sure. The mfrs are listening to us when we complain about the current DCs. Just 3 years ago, it was either a real pricey cyclone system, or a 2 bag system. The big "upgrade" was to get better bags and this is what most hobbiests had.
Now, we can get a variety of cyclones and filters that give a better solution for most budgets. I expect it will only get better for us (maybe not for Oneida and PSI who had a lock on the cyclone market a few years ago).
Now I'd like to see the machinery mfrs make the same progress. Most cabinet saws now come with dust ports. They were optional a few years ago. But, IMO, a dust port and angled cabinet bottom do not make good dust collection.
I really find myself using my Festool saw more and more simply because my table saw still requires a broom when I'm done. It wouldn't matter if I had a $10K cyclone, I'd still be sweeping up behind my Unisaw. And, the Unisaw was judged best DC in the FWW cabinet saw test last year.
I'd like to see the mfrs really work at getting table saws, jointers, planers, sanders, etc. cleaned up.
It seems like many of the new models are making progress. The SawStop, some of the new planers and Jets new 12" disc sander come to mind as significant improvements. But, much like the old school blade guards, we are all still having to accept marginal DC from the traditional equipment.

Jay

[Eddie Watkins]

All interesting comments, but if anybody is reading that can influence changes, is there any way to make DCs quieter? Noise is pollution also and my DC is the noisiest tool in my shop AND it runs most of the time. As I get older and hearing becomes more of a problem I am looking for ways to not only hear better while I am in my shop but protect my hearing as well. I realize loss of hearing is not life threatening like loss of lung capacity but it still impacts quality of life. Right now my only option is to build a closet to muffle sound which I plan on doing.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

One thing for sure. The mfrs are listening to us when we complain about the current DCs. Just 3 years ago, it was either a real pricey cyclone system, or a 2 bag system. The big "upgrade" was to get better bags and this is what most hobbiests had.
Now, we can get a variety of cyclones and filters that give a better solution for most budgets. I expect it will only get better for us (maybe not for Oneida and PSI who had a lock on the cyclone market a few years ago).
Now I'd like to see the machinery mfrs make the same progress. Most cabinet saws now come with dust ports. They were optional a few years ago. But, IMO, a dust port and angled cabinet bottom do not make good dust collection.
Jay
Jay, I am with you on this one! However, I think that it will come. Look at all of the work that many people spend on dust collection. I have spent the whole day today enhancing my dust collection system. I hate to admit it, but it's not because of my health, that is a bonus, it is because of the MESS.

As cyclones become more common in hobby shops, the consumer will look to buy tools that will maximize the cyclone's impact, I HOPE :)

[Frank Pellow]

...
One other thing that hasn't come up in this thread: Grizzly's offerings most certainly "threaten" in the hobbies space, especially for for the very cost conscious, no matter what their real performance turns out to be, but that's only a part of Onieda's business. They supply larger systems to professional shops, schools and industry and ONLY do dust collection. The 2-3hp systems that we all covet pale in comparison to the things going into those places. Grizzly, PSI, and Woodsucker don't play there at all. There is a different value proposition to that kind of business and those customers are not as price sensitive as the hobbyist woodworker is.
I had forgotten about that Jim. Thanks for reminding us.

Do you have any idea of the percentage breakdown of Oneida sales between the "hobby" market and the "professional/industry" market?

I certainly want Oneida to survive and prosper (preferably with somewhat lower prices), but I think they really goofed in responding to Grizzly the way that they did

[Frank Pellow]

All interesting comments, but if anybody is reading that can influence changes, is there any way to make DCs quieter? Noise is pollution also and my DC is the noisiest tool in my shop AND it runs most of the time. As I get older and hearing becomes more of a problem I am looking for ways to not only hear better while I am in my shop but protect my hearing as well. I realize loss of hearing is not life threatening like loss of lung capacity but it still impacts quality of life. Right now my only option is to build a closet to muffle sound which I plan on doing.
I am really with you on this requirement Eddie. I too, am buiding a closet around my Oneida (2hp Commercial) unit. The thing is LOUD!

[Jim Becker]

Do you have any idea of the percentage breakdown of Oneida sales between the "hobby" market and the "professional/industry" market?
No, I don't. But I've seen some of the larger systems and they are awe-inspiring! The local community college put in one two years ago (my local AAW turning chapter meets there) and it it a huge system with the cyclone and blower outdoors with the filters (4 huge cartridges haning from a plenum mounted to the ceiling) back in the shop. There was a bigger one at the Oneida building when I visited...I believe, if I'm remembering correctly, it was being custom assembled to test something new in the design.


I certainly want Oneida to survive and prosper (preferably with somewhat lower prices), but I think they really goofed in responding to Grizzly the way that they did
In retrospect after thinking about it, I agree. It's the old addage..."It's not what you say, but how you say it that counts."

[Jim Becker]

I am really with you on this requirement Eddie. I too, am buiding a closet around my Oneida (2hp Commercial) unit. The thing is LOUD!
The closet works wonders. When my unit is "on", but all gates are closed, it's really quiet. The actual noise while collecting varies with the tool and hood design, however...the J/P combo is the loudest due to the way the air rushes through a narrow space across the cutter head.

My compressor is pretty much nearly inaudible now, too, since it's co-located in the same closet. The combination of drywall on the outside, fiberglass insulation between the studs and pegboard on the inside mounted with the rough surface to the noise has worked wonderfully. The air return is not a straight path, either...it uses a joist bay and bends back before dumping into the shop.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=14660&stc=1

[Brian Austin]

I sure wouldn't trust anything Wood magazine ever reports!:eek: It's not like they are a trusted company when it comes to showing the real winner. They show a huge bias just as you or I would. On top of that, they take dollars from these companies, making any test, an opinion. I will never trust any of these magazines to pick where my monies go! :confused:

I don't understand why you want Wood to do a test too compare the two.:rolleyes:
I've heard this a number of times but have yet to see any proof of it. Care to share any proof?

[Jim Becker]

I've heard this a number of times but have yet to see any proof of it. I'm confident that WOOD Magazine and most of the others are pretty much on the up-and-up when it comes to reviews despite the common feeling that a "good review" is tied to advertising revenue. For WOOD, the process is completely isolated from the rest of the magazine operation and happens on an entirely different time cycle from the ad sales...reviews are done nearly 6 months before you see them in print. In many cases, independent reviewers do them or participate as part of the team. I've actually seen one review in progress when I was visiting the magazine office a couple years ago and was really struck by the work they do to keep things "even" while evaluating things. This was a drill press feature...and all those things were lined up like soldiers during the testing! Dave generally does a pretty good job with this and I know him well enough to understand that he hates dishonesty.

That's not to say that the world is perfect...there will always be "someone" who strays whether it be in sports or tool reviews. But I think that is the exception, rather than the rule.

Relative to this thread, the cyclone testing in the December 2003 issue of WOOD was pretty well done. I would like to see the new Grizzly cyclone(s) put through exactly the same rigor by the same people and see where those machines would plot out as compared to those already tested.

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi all!

I'm very interested in all of this. I have decided to do the cyclone as part of my shop remodel, placing it's purchase ahead of the bandsaw I really want to get. Like everyone, I want the most bang for the buck. I'm lucky in that I have some time before my shop gets to the point that I need the cyclone to finish the interior, a long time. Right now I'm leaning toward the Clear View that uses Bill Pentz's design. I'm not 100% sold on the PTEG material, but just from the standpoint that I don't know how it will hold up over time. The metal kit that Bill sells seems a little on the light side (metal guage wise), but it is more of a known substance. I'll have mine mounted up high so that the ductwork will be in the attic. The angled input of the ClearVue will make that a little easier on my design. The fact that it's clear isn't that big a deal, since mine will be covered up by a sound deadoning closet. Also, it is set up for 6" S&D to hook right into it, and that's a plus. But I am intrigued by the Grizzly 3HP unit, and hope that some form of a review will be forthcoming, and quickly. From the lead time on testing that Jim B. talked about, that may be pushing the end of the envelope for even my time schedule. I do think that the comparison that Griz put up on their web site was a "little" premature, since they don't even have the numbers to back up their campaign yet. But Onieda should have just put out a statement that said that, and to keep an open mind until some independant testing is done. But it's fun having something to look forward to, huh? Jim.

[mike lucas]

I am sure Oneida makes more money selling the bigger units to big commerial shops, but there are many bigger and better cyclones to choose from then Oneida.

If they stay in business or not, really doesn't matter much too me, as better companies have went away due to not wanting to keep up, or not being able to. I have worked for 3 companies went belly up while I worked there. No company will last forever unless it is large enough for the Government to step in and help, as they did with Dodge in the 80`s.
Sure it would be good if Oneida can stay afloat, but that isn't up to me. They have to offer the best they can for the best prices, and even then, there are no promise that they will be here next year.

If I could spend the money for a good cyclone dust collector, I'd be looking at something like the Dustkop or another, but probably not Oneida.

According to what Bill wrote, the Oneida under 3 hp units will not get the job done properly. So you have to spend at least $2300 at Oneida, or maybe $1500 for a new Grizzly (If they are as good as PappaGrizzly is saying!) That is a huge difference for most small shops (Like I have!) or a weekend hobbyist. If Grizzly is right and their new units are way better then Oneida units, then Oneida is in deep trouble.

Oneida sales dust collecton equipment only, where as Grizzly sales thousands of different items to make their money. I have never bought anything from either company, but there is always a first, and I do need a new dust collector that can handle a one man shop working full time. (And I want something that does not need a blast gate at each machine or tool.) Right now it looks like Grizzly could be on my list of companies to buy from in the not so distant future. (5 horsepower unit with 16" fan sounds like it may be the one.)

[Ted Harris]

In a competition of price vs price, price almost always wins. Grizzly is selling price and offering their justification (true or not).

OAS should be scared. Their price is no longer an issue, OAS is over-priced by $500. Now OAS has to start justifying the $500 difference in terms of quality. Think of the problem as: Should I buy a Grizzly 1023 or a Powermatic 66.
In dust collection, you get what you pay for...plain and simple.

[Rich Konopka]

I've heard this a number of times but have yet to see any proof of it. Care to share any proof?
Just last August they did a Glue showdown and knocked Tite Bond off its throne. The same issue the back cover the Titebond "Best Glue Ever". The next month or two the ads are gone and then a retraction appears proclaiming they made an error. The ads are back and it is a bit too coincidental for me. Magazines rely on advertisers and they cannot give a true impartial review because of this.

[JayStPeter]

In dust collection, you get what you pay for...plain and simple.

Well, yes and no. I'm not trying to get political here, just making a statement. Let's say the Grizzly cyclone body is all it is hyped up to be. I can now pay less for the same quality because it's made overseas. Let's face it. The metalwork is pretty simple on those things. Given that there's a reasonable design and decent thickness sheet metal, a cyclone body is a cyclone body.

However, I seriously doubt that Grizzlys filters are quite as nice as Oneidas. Given that my filter alone was a $400 option, it better be fantastic (it is).

On the other hand. Who cares if my filter catches 95% or 99.9% of the dust when my TS spits 30% of it's dust into the room anyway. Until there's better capture at the source, I'm still sweeping up and blowing sawdust boogers at the end of the day. Maybe both companies should look at the other end of the hoses now.

If Grizzly added a dust shroud, and removable splitter with dust capturing guard to their cabinet saws, I might sell my Unisaw for one. Or, if OAS came up with a retrofit kit for various TSs, I'd gladly pay. Say a clear plastic dust shroud that can attach were the useless pawls attach to the Bies splitter (like the euro saws) and another that attaches to the trunnion somehow and allows a dust port right there.

Heck, I've been replacing my handheld tools with Festools mostly for their DC. It has become one of my main focuses when purchasing new tools. It has definitely got me thinking about replacing my TS (if I just had another racebike to sell).

Jay

[John Hulett]

the thing I find funny about the Onedia rant is, they are slamming a pre-marketing adver from grizzly. I would think (knowing grizzly) that there will be more detailed info forthcoming. If you look at what grizzly does and spectrum of what they sell, it's like walmart moving in on your turf. Early response will maybe catch early converts but in the long run, the competition will cause better products, more features for lower costs. The statement where Onedia talks about the chinese built motor _vs_ the american motor is kinda funny IMHO.



Keith
The part I think is really funny is Oneida's quote: "OAS could buy cheap Chinese and Asian motors for half of what it costs us to use Baldor and Leeson, but we won't do it." Last I checked, China is a part of Asia.:eek: :D

[John Renzetti]

hi I've read both the Grizzly ad and the Oneida rebuttle and didn't really find the Oneida rebuttle a rant. I really didn't like the Grizzly presentation. If they had left out the Oneida comparison and attack since some of the items were vague or distorted. When somebody makes a direct attack on another product, it gets me thinking..."that other product must be pretty good if the competition is attacking it."
The semantics of the geographic location of China being in Asia aside, Oneida makes a valid point about their use of the Baldor motors. Baldor motors especially in single phase are as good as is gets. When you look at the dataplate you know that what is stamped there, hp, duty rating, insulation amps, etc is what it says. I'm not convinced that what is stamped on a Chinese made single phase motor would be the same. In talking to some knowledgable people who have been in the electrical motor business for a long time, there is a little open secret that the buyer of a motor can get whatever they want, (within reason) stamped on the dataplate. So maybe that 3hp motor is really 2hp. It will pull 3hp but the insulation etc isn't going to take the heat so it will fail a lot sooner. Not long ago some people got a machine, made in China or Taiwan that was supposed to have a 2hp motor, but the motor was stamped 1.5hp. Other machines came in with the 2hp stamp. Same motor.
The customer that Grizzly is going for probably isn't going to notice that the motor is the weak spot. But a commercial shop that runs the DC continuously all day might want to make sure that the motor is going to hold up to that continuous operation. This is all speculation. The motor that Grizzly uses could be a top rated 1ph motor. But right now based on what I've seen and heard of Asian 1ph motors, I'd prefer paying extra for the Baldor.
I have nothing against Grizzly. The owner is a fine woodworker and has built that company from nothing into a big firm. I just don't think with all the good advertising they do, they needed to run an attack ad like they did.
Just my $.02
take care,
John

[Keith Christopher]

a direct attack on another product, it gets me thinking..."that other product must be pretty good if the competition is attacking it."
The customer that Grizzly is going for probably isn't going to notice that the motor is the weak spot. But a commercial shop that runs the DC continuously all day might want to make sure that the motor is going to hold up to that continuous operation. This is all speculation. The motor that Grizzly uses could be a top rated 1ph motor. But right now based on what I've seen and heard of Asian 1ph motors, I'd prefer paying extra for the Baldor.
I have nothing against Grizzly. The owner is a fine woodworker and has built that company from nothing into a big firm. I just don't think with all the good advertising they do, they needed to run an attack ad like they did.
Just my $.02
take care,
John
Agree, however I really feel they're looking a Grizzly like some sort of walmart moving in on their turf. I do believe the Onedia product is excellent. But I have to think this is like my example for TV's. Once samsung produces a product like yours, the prices are gonna drop. Once Grizzly produces these and they get use and good reviews well, I'm sure If I buy one and the motor seems cheap enough I can get a better motor and install it. Lets wait for the independant reviews to surface. A good product is a good product, but not everyone needs/wants a top shelf product.


Keith

[Ellen Benkin]

I just tried to look at the Oneida posting and was denied access. Do you think they pulled it?

[Frank Pellow]

I just tried to look at the Oneida posting and was denied access. Do you think they pulled it?
They might have. The same thing just happened to me.

[Ted Shrader]

All -

The whine in Oneida's response has been toned down. New page is here (http://synergy.oneida-air.com/public/docs/BDDocument.asp?Action=View&ID={E202C72F-969C-49D5-9E49-6F7EF3AB9CE6}&ReturnTo=BDFPView%2Easp%3FLayout%3DDOC).

Oneida offers a good quality product, but I think they are a little sensitive to Grizzly's new offering. Time will tell. I am in the market and am waiting for the Griz to hit the streets.

Ted

[Frank Pellow]

All -

The whine in Oneida's response has been toned down. New page is here (http://synergy.oneida-air.com/public/docs/BDDocument.asp?Action=View&ID={E202C72F-969C-49D5-9E49-6F7EF3AB9CE6}&ReturnTo=BDFPView%2Easp%3FLayout%3DDOC).

Oneida offers a good quality product, but I think they are a little sensitive to Grizzly's new offering. Time will tell. I am in the market and am waiting for the Griz to hit the streets.

Ted
That's a LOT better! It is very close to what I would have advised them to post (rather than the post about Grizzly that used to be there).

[Terre Hooks]

The customer that Grizzly is going for probably isn't going to notice that the motor is the weak spot. But a commercial shop that runs the DC continuously all day might want to make sure that the motor is going to hold up to that continuous operation. This is all speculation.

Yes, I'd say that most of it is speculation.

I've been in the cabinet shop that does the highest quality work around here. He employs 8-10 people, and stays 4+ months behind. He is the only one that I would pay to build cabinets for me.

He has 2 Grizzly dust collectors. One is a 4 HP unit that runs 10-11 hours a day (they work 4-10's.) It is turned off 2-3 times a day, for cleaning, lunch, and end of day. Other than that, it runs. It has to. I think this unit is more than 4 years old.

He also has a single machine unit, a 1029 on his countertop saw.

He also has a 1023 that is about 10+ years old, and is what he started his cabinet shop business with. It still runs, most everyday, ripping up faceplate.

Granted, he has bought two other cabinet saws, one a 3hp and one a 5 hp Unisaw. The first one he said he just wanted to try a Unisaw and the other I think he got a good deal on the 5 hp.


I'd wait until there's some user feedback about the Grizzly cyclones.

Sure, everyone would love to have an Oneida machine. I'd love to have a US made 12" jointer and 20" planer. If I wanted to afford that, I'd have to drive a 82 Datsun pickup to work. I haven't seen many 'LUVs' running around that old, lately.

You want some US made machinery, check http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .

[Bill Crofutt]

There are more questions than answers in this thread, but perhaps I can answer a few.

Oneida has been “attacking” Grizzly for years. I personally have spoken to customers that got off the phone with the Oneida salespeople and wanted me to hear what was said. Eventually, I called them myself and learned. In the past we never compared ourselves directly to a competitor, but enough is enough.

They tested a cyclone made in Taiwan, but not ours. It is NOT the same unit we used to sell, as they would ask you to believe. Even though we did quite well against them in the WOOD magazine test, we were not happy with the performance of the old cyclone and have discontinued selling it. Hence a two-year research and development project began. No one has tested our new cyclone except us, however we certainly will make these available for testing as soon as we are in full production. Magazines have already been contacted.

We have contacted every source out there that could supply cyclone information. If anyone is naive enough to think they were the only source we contacted when we “swallowed our pride” then so be it. Others call that research. But this IS old technology just being used in a different way. There is no “magic” in the design. We have taken what we believe to be the best ideas from many sources not to mention the more than a dozen Grizzly engineers then built dozens of configurations carefully testing each one until we were satisfied with the results.

We did in fact buy and test Oneida cyclones, but they are not the only ones. It’s just they are the only ones reporting fiction as fact in regards to our cyclones.

Yes, we were/are a little premature in announcing our new cyclones, but with good reason. Our master catalog is a once a year event and we had to have them in the 2005 catalog even if they were not entirely finished. And, we couldn’t very well have our new catalog hit the streets with no mention of the cylones on the web site. For those interested we will have detailed information including performance curves and certification of our filters on the web site in days not weeks.

[Jim O'Dell]

Snip:
You want some US made machinery, check http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/ .

That is some serious iron. I notice they don't publish any prices, not that it would make any difference for me ;-). Jim.

[Steven Wilson]

So Bill, how about toning down the BS on the Grizzly website and publish some real information. Do you have fan curve information that you care to publish instead of the inventive "free air" CFM numbers you post on your other DC's? How about independent testing (or certification) of your filter media. The only two players, in the lower end commercial market, that have been truthfull with consumers have been Felder and Oneida.

[Frank Pellow]

That is some serious iron. I notice they don't publish any prices, not that it would make any difference for me ;-). Jim.
Jim, they do publish prices on the web site and, they too, are serious!

[Terry Hatfield]

Thanks for the post Bill. I look forward to seeing the curves and filtration information.

Terry

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, they do publish prices on the web site and, they too, are serious!

Must have been that self preservation thing going on. LOML would have killed me for sure!!! Jim.

[Brad Olson]

snip... Do you have fan curve information that you care to publish instead of the inventive "free air" CFM numbers you post on your other DC's? How about independent testing (or certification) of your filter media. The only two players, in the lower end commercial market, that have been truthfull with consumers have been Felder and Oneida.



snip... No one has tested our new cyclone except us, however we certainly will make these available for testing as soon as we are in full production. Magazines have already been contacted.

snip... For those interested we will have detailed information including performance curves and certification of our filters on the web site in days not weeks.

Seems like we will see the data when the boat arrives, I think we need to settle down on that point. Both the CEO of Griz and Bill have stated that they are in the process of getting the data out and when they have units available they will go out for testing.

[mike lucas]

Honda is advertising a new 1/2 ton truck that they claim will “revolutionary” and proclaiming it will “redefine what a truck can be,” Then there is Dodge with their up coming Maxicab truck. They claim that it is much larger then the cab on either Ford or GM full size trucks.

Neither is out yet, but it doesn't stop the claims from pouring out.

Ford has showed their truck pulling an aircraft to get it air bourne, Chevy has showed their truck carrying a Ford and Dodge on the bed while driving up a mountian side, and microsoft has claimed that their operating system is better then Apple computer. (That last one is the biggest joke/lie of any I have ever read!) And there are thousands of other examples!



I bring these examples up to point out to those that are complaining about Grizzly.

Only time will tell with any of them! Although, I really doubt that the new small 1/2 ton will revolutionize anything.

These type claims go on in every competitive field, so why are so many crying about Grizzly?

[Frank Pellow]

Honda is advertising a new 1/2 ton truck that they claim will “revolutionary” and proclaiming it will “redefine what a truck can be,” Then there is Dodge with their up coming Maxicab truck. They claim that it is much larger then the cab on either Ford or GM full size trucks.

Neither is out yet, but it doesn't stop the claims from pouring out.

Ford has showed their truck pulling an aircraft to get it air bourne, Chevy has showed their truck carrying a Ford and Dodge on the bed while driving up a mountian side, and microsoft has claimed that their operating system is better then Apple computer. (That last one is the biggest joke/lie of any I have ever read!) And there are thousands of other examples!



I bring these examples up to point out to those that are bitc#ing about Grizzly.

Only time will tell with any of them! Although, I really doubt that the new small 1/2 ton will revolutionize anything.

These type claims go on in every competitive field, so why are so many crying about Grizzly?
Just because they do it, does not make it right. I want truth in advertizing. And, I am much more inclined to purchase merchadise from companies that give me truth in advertizing. For customers such as me, what Grizzly wrote and what Oneida wrote put both of them in an unfavourable light.

Also, I started this thread because I thought Oneida's response to Grizzly was not a smart thing for them to do. It appears that someone at Oneida must agree with me because, as I understand it, they have vastly altered and "generisized" that response.

[John Bailey]

I love it!! Capitalism at work, and for one of the few times, I'm right where I need to be - a few months away from buying a unit. Let them duke it out and may the best deal come my way.

John

[Matt Woodworth]

That's a LOT better! Indeed, it's a lot better but it's important to remember that Oneida does not have a good record when it comes to representing their competitors projects. I saw this on their web site, "Woodworkers have been confused and betrayed by incredible advertising hype when it comes to dust collection systems. " It made me laugh. They ran that comparison chart for a year that had Oneida numbers from their personal tests (which were higher than wood magazine gave them) combined with lower numbers from independent tests. It looks like they've cleaned that up on their redesigned site.

I don't mind competitors comparing products to each other's just as long as they stick to the truth and keep the comparisons reasonable. I also love that Grizzly puts people on forums like this one to help add facts. I wish Oneida would come around too.

[mike lucas]

Just because they do it, does not make it right. I want truth in advertizing. And, I am much more inclined to purchase merchadise from companies that give me truth in advertizing. For customers such as me, what Grizzly wrote and what Oneida wrote put both of them in an unfavourable light.

Why exactly does what Grizzly wrote offend you? The DC isn't out, so how do you know if it is not true? Grizzly`s new cyclone systems may make the Oneida perform more like a $5 toy, then compitition! We all need too set back and wait too make such harsh remarks.;)

[Chris Padilla]

Personally, I think it is brilliant advertising and marketing from Grizzly. Some may not like it but a lot of folks have had a look and are now aware of what Grizzly is coming out with. Money well spent as Grizzly has now just caused a few ready to pull the trigger with someone else stop.

Capitalism rules! :)

[Ted Shrader]

Chris -

Valid point. Count me right there in that group.

Didn't like the initial Oneida whine - that has since been toned down. Not something I expected to see from a company with that sort of reputation. The overly defensive posture sure added credence to Grizzly's claims.

Ted

[Tom LaRussa]

I want truth in advertizing.
Frank,

I want to be tall, thin, and rich.

Good luck to us both! :p

[Frank Pellow]

Check out: http://www.grizzly.com/dustcollectors/compare.cfm?

There are extensive comparisons to Oneida which provide "interesting" reading.

Of course, I really want to see independent testing and hear about some some real world Grizzly installations before concluding anything about the relative merits of the two systems.

[Jim Becker]

Frank, interesting that the picture at the top (which really illustrates the move towards the Pentz design) is different than those in the "comparisons" links at the bottom, but they are accurate later in the site. I also would want to see independent testing...but the numbers aren't really significantly different between the two companies in the Grizzly comparision if they are true. (the exception being the 1.5hp) That does make the Grizzly offering very competitive. The one thing that's not clear in the comparisons is "which" 2hp Oneida they tested...there are two; component and commercial.

But I will say that Grizzly's claim that Onieda tested a "generic" cyclone is inaccurate. I've been in their test labs and it's chock-full of competitive systems from a wide variety of manufacturers. I had a picture of that, but can't find it, unfortunately...

[mike lucas]

But I will say that Grizzly's claim that Onieda tested a "generic" cyclone is inaccurate. I've been in their test labs and it's chock-full of competitive systems from a wide variety of manufacturers. I had a picture of that, but can't find it, unfortunately... They may test them all, then lump the results all in to one number, or use the lowest numbers. These are things we could not know.

I like the numbers from Grizzly, but untill we get them in the shops for real world testing we won't know if Grizzly`s testing is accurate. I would think that now more and more shop owners are educated in dust collection numbers, that Grizzly has done a good test. I would like to see the comparision between the Grizzly 5hp and Bill Pentz design 5hp cyclones. I would think the Grizzly would blow it away (Pun intended!) because of the fan size alone. (14" VS 16") The fans are nearly identical except for size, I believe the Grizzly cyclone is bigger in diameter, and it is much longer.

[Allan Johanson]

If the Grizzly numbers are "real" which I will assume they are for now, then my testing of my 5HP, 14" impeller Bill Pentz cyclone is almost identical to the Grizz 3HP version with a 15" impeller. At some points I've tested higher airflow and others a bit lower. Depends. The fan curves will vary so this is normal.

The numbers will also vary based on air density, gauge errors, human factor errors, rounding errors, cyclone construction, duct layout for testing, etc. My cyclone has an 8" inlet and an 8" exhaust and for my shop, I've settled on a 7" main duct size for optimum usage for the way I'll be working.

But for being 1" shy in the fan dept compared to the Grizz 3HP, I must say that Bill Pentz did a great job with his design.

Cheers,

Allan

[Jim Becker]

Mike, although Oneida lists competitive advantages on their site, I can't find any direct comparisons to a specific competitor except a reference and link to the WOOD Magazine test article from December 2003. The fan curves are for the particular machine being viewed. I didn't even find a link to the original Oneida response to Grizzly...perhaps they removed it. If I missed something, I appologize, but this is a little different than the other vendor in question. I do hope that Grizzly's curves are accurate because these new systems do appear to offer a lot of performance for a reasonable price, even when you back out the magnetic switch that few people actually buy from Oneida...

[JayStPeter]

Frank, interesting that the picture at the top (which really illustrates the move towards the Pentz design) is different than those in the "comparisons" links at the bottom, but they are accurate later in the site. I also would want to see independent testing...but the numbers aren't really significantly different between the two companies in the Grizzly comparision if they are true. (the exception being the 1.5hp) That does make the Grizzly offering very competitive. The one thing that's not clear in the comparisons is "which" 2hp Oneida they tested...there are two; component and commercial.

But I will say that Grizzly's claim that Onieda tested a "generic" cyclone is inaccurate. I've been in their test labs and it's chock-full of competitive systems from a wide variety of manufacturers. I had a picture of that, but can't find it, unfortunately...


Well, since the 3HP Grizzly system cost is less than the 2HP commercial Oneida, I think that's where I would've gone if these results prove even close.

Also, Grizzly's claim that Oneida tested a "generic" cyclone is kind of true. Even though they probably did test the Grizzly version, their old cyclone was a "generic" version sold by many other mfrs. I do believe that Oneida WILL test the new Grizzly models, but it doesn't seem like they are available for Oneida to test yet.

Let's just hope that Grizzly is confident in the test curves they released. If independent testing shows them to be any less, they'll get absolutely trashed in the forums. :eek:

Jay

[Ed Weiser]

That Grizzly was able to produce a product that effectively competes with Oneida on paper is not only not surprising, it was predictable. I suspect their "real world" numbers will be similar to Oneida's after independent testing is said and done. What will only likely distinguish Grizzly from Oneida (much like comparisons with other power tools by other manufacturers) will be "fit and finish". Grizzly, because of its overseas manufacturers and large volumes competes effectively. By offering generally good customer service after the sale they compensate for perhaps a lesser fit and finish "on the back end" rather than "up front". I have an Oneida 2 hp commercial DC and am quite pleased. With an American manufactured product Oneida has higher costs that are inescapable. The whole issue will be a comparison that SMC members have made many times--for example, European large frame bandsaws versus their Far Eastern clones. Take your choice and deal with the issues now or later. Just my two cents...

Ed

[Frank Pellow]

It appears that Oneida did have something to fear and they responded (too late for me :( ) with the Dust Gorilla.

Here is link to a recent open letter from Oneida re thier competition: http://www.oneida-air.com/letter_to_woodworkers.htm

[Michael Ballent]

It appears that Oneida did have something to fear and they responded (too late for me :( ) with the Dust Gorilla.

Here is link to a recent open letter from Oneida re thier competition: http://www.oneida-air.com/letter_to_woodworkers.htm

I have said it in the past and I will continue to say it... Competition is good and let the best company win :D. I personally like the idea that the Oneida is made in the USA and they have gone to the trouble to point out why their machine is superior... Now Griz will have to pony up and upgrade their machine or they may be shut out... based on the fact both machines seem to be priced the same I would go for the Oneida, just because the welds seem to be better :D and USA made.

[Chris McKimson]

It appears that Oneida did have something to fear and they responded (too late for me :( ) with the Dust Gorilla.

Here is link to a recent open letter from Oneida re thier competition: http://www.oneida-air.com/letter_to_woodworkers.htm

Not to late for me. :D :D I ordered the 3HP Super Gorilla this morning. I considered the Grizzly but shipping was alot less than I expected from Oneida and I didn't have to pay the sales tax I would have for the G0441.

Chris

[Joe Horne]

I own a Oneida Cyclone........I love it........and I would buy it again, no matter the price. Sure, I own a few Griz Tools too, but when it comes to Dust Collection, nobody does it better than Oneida, IMO. I looked at the rest, then bought the best. ;)

The customer and duct design service I received with my Cyclone was invaluable............just plain nice folks to deal with, period! :)

[John Bush]

Hi Chris,
Did you send the G0440 back and are getting the ductwork from Oneida too? Good luck, John.

[Chris McKimson]

I had pickup up the G0440 at the showroom, but had second thoughts as we had discussed. In the end, I arranged to swap the G0440 for a G0441 and the CS rep. I spoke with on the phone and through email placed the order for the G0441 (thereby holding one they had in stock) and created a return authorization for the G0440. I had arranged to take some time off to drive up to Bellingham (I work in Olympia) I got an email the afternoon before that, gee, they were out of stock and it would be 6 weeks before another came in. I thought of the Seinfeld episode where he make a reservation for the car, but they have no car. In the meantime, I had a G0440 sitting boxed up in the garage I could either take more time off to take back or trip over in my garage for the next 6 weeks. Neither worked will for me.

It's not that "things" don't happen, they do, but how a company deals with a problem. Grizzly customer service response for the most part was "Sorry". Nobody ever even suggested "maybe we could get one from another location" or "maybe we could arrange for you to drop off the G0441 at a time when the showroom is closed." (wouldn't have to take time off from work) or "we will send a shipper out to pick up the G0440 so it's not in your way" But all I got was "Sorry".

I placed the order for the Oneida after a call to them suggested that I wouldn't have to wait 6 weeks and I wouldn't have to pay tax and shipping would be a whole lot less than I thought.

In any event, I'm sure the Oneida will perform ever bit as well as a Grizzly would, I"m sure I'd be happy with either. The Oneida will end up being alot easier to get in the garage than the Grizzly. Thanks again for the shop tour and demo of the G0440 and fellas you should see John's shop, sure is a nice one.

Chris

[Allan Johanson]

Hi Chris,

Congrats on pulling the trigger on a nice machine. You will be very happy with it. Just promise me you won't be choking the poor thing down with 4" ducting. :D

Cheers,

Allan

[Chris McKimson]

Hi Chris,

Congrats on pulling the trigger on a nice machine. You will be very happy with it. Just promise me you won't be choking the poor thing down with 4" ducting. :D

Cheers,

Allan

Allan, I don't have any money left for ducting. Can't I just turn the machine on and left it suck all the stuff up? :D

I had planned on Oneida coming up with a design they suggest, then getting ducting from them, Air Handling or Spiral Mfg. As an alternative, I've seen you suggest driving around your neighborhood looking for those who make ducting, I just don't know where you live. :D

Chris

[Gary Sutherland]

You know, if this drama plays out the way many do in industry these days, Oneida will eventually move it's manufacturing to China, in order to survive increasing competition.

I'm sure they have no such plans at this point, and don't want to ever make such a move, but many fine American companies, after heroic struggles against it, have been forced to do it or die.

Gary

[Michael Gabbay]

I've used Oneida in the past for ducting and duct design for my small shop. Even though I already had a Jet DC and only wanted the duct work Oneida never once made any indication that I should buy their product. I really felt like they gave me good information. They did mention perfomance of the Jet would be pushing things but did it in such a way that was not a sales pitch but more of a design concern. I had already determined that what I wanted to do was not optimal but it was what I could afford.

Deciding on Grizzly versus Oneida for dust collection equipment... I'd rather go with the company that specializes in dust collection. Nothing against Grizzly. It's kind of like going to a General Practictioner when you need brain surgery. ;)

I would have preferred that Oneida keep silent and market their product and not get into negative campaigning.

Mike

[Martin Lutz]

I have just started dealing with Oneida this week for a new system for my shop. Things are going well, friendly, courteous service. I'll keep you posted.

[Frank Pellow]

...
I would have preferred that Oneida keep silent and market their product and not get into negative campaigning.
...
Mike
I agree with you Michael (and that's why I posted Oneida's new open letter that shows that they are not going to keep silent -in spite of what we think).

[J.R. Rutter]

The new Woodworker's Supply catalog has their version of the cyclone, with performance curves for them, Grizzly, and Oneida. They said they collected the data at the same elevation, implying that they actually tested all of the units. It does show that the Grizzly 3 HP finished last, behind the 2 HP Oneida...

[Chip Charnley]

I had planned on Oneida coming up with a design they suggest, then getting ducting from them, Air Handling or Spiral Mfg. As an alternative, I've seen you suggest driving around your neighborhood looking for those who make ducting, I just don't know where you live. :D

Chris[/quote]

Chris,

If you haven't already bought the ducting from Oneida and this is a hobby shop not a business, contact a local HVAC company or two and get a quote on the CAD you get from Oneida. I bought a 3HP Oneida a year or so ago and considered going the route you are. But after figuring out what it would cost me for their parts and the work it would take me, I got a local HVAC company to install ducting to Oneida's specs (albeit smooth HVAC duct instead of spiral) for nearly the same cost as just buying the Oneida spiral duct parts. I had to go back and caulk some seams but it's pretty solid aside from that.

Chip

[Rob Blaustein]

Chris--I know this has been debated a lot here, but have you considered 6" PVC instead of metal ducting? It seems to be much less expensive and my sense from Rodney Cole's now classic article is that the sparking/grounding thing is really a non-issue for a home/hobbyist shop.

[Chris McKimson]

I did think about PVC and who knows, may end up there, but had originally decided to get the Nordfab stuff that Grizzly sells. I could pick it up locally at the Bellingham showroom, but a preliminary rundown of what I need for my smallish shop came up to 2200.00 just for the ducting (7" main + 6" drops). :eek: I plan on building a detached 3 car garage in the next few months and will have to redo the ductwork once I move the shop and was attracted to the ease of install/uninstall of the Nordfab, but still 2200.00 :eek: :eek:

I priced out the same stuff from Penn State and came up with closer to 900.00, which is more digestable. I plan to take the list Oneida will give me and figuring out all my options and who knows, might do the Nordfab or end up with PVC, but probably something in between.

Chris

[Andy London]

I priced out the same stuff from Penn State and came up with closer to 900.00, which is more digestable. I plan to take the list Oneida will give me and figuring out all my options and who knows, might do the Nordfab or end up with PVC, but probably something in between.

Chris

Chris, I too have the Oneida unit and can't say enough about how pleased I am with it, in a commercial environment. Have you considered a local HVAC supplier??

I ran a 7" main around 36' with 5 x Y's reduced to 6" and down to 4 or 5" at some of the tools, there is a heck of a lot of pipe, Y's, elbows etc. I suspect I have about $900.00 Canadian which was a huge savings for me.

I did look at PVC however I had PVC with the previous system and in the winter, with the wood stove going and the DC, man if you even came close to the pipe the static charge was enough on a couple of ocassions to burn my skin.....aside from being constantly annoying I didn't think it to be a real safe option for me.

Good Luck!

Andy

[Allan Johanson]

I'm using a combo of 28ga spiral pipe and 28ga snaplock HVAC ducting. Spiral pipe from a local distributor about 20 mins from me and the snaplock was from Home Depot.

The 7x7x7 wyes were from a local distributor and the elbows are basic HVAC short radius adjustable elbows from Home Depot. My ducting was relatively cheap.

10 feet of 7", 28ga spiral pipe was $31 Canadian
10 feet of 6", 28ga spiral pipe was $25 Canadian
elbows are a few bucks each at Home Depot
28ga snaplock pipe in 7" or 6" diameters runs a few bucks for 30" lengths
The 7x7x7 wyes were pricey at around $17 Canadian each.
Misc reducers (like 7" x 6") are also only a few bucks.

I made my own 7" blast gates.

When you have the incredible performance of a large DC, you can cut a few corners with the ducting and save lots of cash.

Cheers,

Allan

[Todd Franks]

JR,

What is the Woodworker's Supply catalog # with the new cyclone? I don't have the very latest catalog but I've scoured their online print catalogs and searched their website and can find no mention of a new cyclone. I'm curious to find out more info.

Thanks,
Todd