Finial making

[Matt Wolboldt]

So I've been turning bowls for as long as I've been turning (about 2 yrs or so) and I'm just now trying to turn finials. I guess I was wondering what the trick is to not have it snap when I get down to 1/8". I've kept my tools sharp...just maybe not sharp enough.
Thanks for any tips.

[Dan Forman]

The main things are sharp tools, straight tight grained wood, and to work from the tip to the base, never going back, and leaving plenty of wood to your left to give support to your work so that it won't flop around. Most people don't use a tailstock, and reach under the tool rest to support the workpiece with a finger, equal and opposite to the force applied by the cutting tool.

Cindy Drozda has an excellent video on the subject.

Dan

[John Keeton]

Dan has provided some good info. Probably the most important of those is wood selection. Straight grain, at least through the thin area, is critical. Dense woods (exotics) are somewhat stronger and take detail better. African Blackwood is a favorite. Sharp tools are a must, and having a 1/4" detail gouge (or a couple of them) is helpful. Get the toolrest very close to the work, and use a deep angle of cut (tool handle down). Using a sideways "skew" cut with the leading edge of the detail gouge is useful. Supporting the work with one's finger is often helpful, too, but depends on the situation. Turning the stock at high rpms will produce much cleaner cuts and less breakage. Of course, when it does break, the drama is better!!

But, most importantly, just jumping in and doing several will help most! I don't care who you are, you will have some breakage - it just comes with the territory. However, as you progress, the breakage drops significantly as the outcome gets more predictable.

[David E Keller]

Great advice so far. To expand on the wood idea, there are several species that I've found useful... African blackwood(and other rosewoods), holly, lignum vitae or vera wood, and desert ironwood come to mind. Porous woods lack the strength for easy finials, so I'd avoid them initially.

I use a 3/8 detail gouge and a point tool for most of my finial work... And sand paper, it's great for fairing curves. Good luck!

[John Keeton]

One technique I forgot to mention is using the detail gouge upside down as a negative rake scraper for cleaning up curves and particularly coves. The 1/4" is very nice in small areas for this. Must be sharp!!

[Harry Robinette]

Matt
Time,Patience,even handedness,sharp tools,high speed,straight grain wood and remember your learning your going to break a few, We all do.

[Bill Bulloch]

Matt, I am glad you started this thread. I, too have just started turning finials and, of course, am finding them more difficult to do than I expected. I have completed five and have had that many (or more) break. I think my main problem is the type gouge I am using. I have a 3/8" Thompson Detail Gouge, a 1/2" Thompson Detail Gouge and a 1/2" P&N Gouge: All of these seem to be to long and to heavy for this type work. I have looked at "Mini" tools, but they don't seem to fit right in my hands and look like they would just grind away when sharpening. I'll be looking into getting a small 1/4" detail gouge -- any suggestions on whose to get would be appreciated. I have one of Cindy Drozda's DVDs: don't she makes it look easy?

[John Keeton]

Bill, all of my gouges are Thompsons. I have two of the 1/4" detail gouges - one ground with a little rounder nose. Both have the heels ground off leaving a working bevel of only about 3/32". I also use a specially ground tool for making the deep undercuts as the detail gouge will not work for those.

[David DeCristoforo]

Ahh… finials. Can of worms if ever there was one. My ventures into finials and thin pedestals began with a 1/2" bowl gouge and an upside down skew. I quickly realized that these were not the best tools for this kind of work. I got some smaller gouges, a 3/8" and a 1/4" both ground with radically swept back wings. I also made some tools from a piece of 1/4" 0-1 tool steel. I have several "vortex" type tools ground from this steel and one very sharp "pointy" tool. There are some threads with pics in the archive. Here's one:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?148622

These tools are very easy to make and while they do not come with the skill needed to properly use them, they are much more appropriate for fine detail work!

I still have a long way to go in the finials department but I can offer you a bit of experience. When wood gets this thin, it is imperative that your tools be razor sharp. The have to be able to cut with very little pressure. I have not been able to make them "work" right off a grinding stone. I have to hone them. I have a power waterstone that I use for this and also a leather faced disk, charged with fine emory that is mounted on an outboard faceplate. I use this to touch up the tools as I work. Having the "right tools" is half the battle. From there it's practice as Mark Hubl illustrates here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?153419

[John Hart]

I can offer this advice....

:rolleyes: Hmmmm


Well...on second thought, I can't offer any advice. :o

[Scott Hackler]

and there is something to be said about the way some of us hold the 1/4-1/8" gouges. When doing the super thin stuff, I am holding the steel, not the handle. The control I need can't be done (by myself) unless my hand is choked up on the steel and the other hand is supporting the finial from the opposite side.

Its also important to say that sanding/polishing of the finial should generally be done "as you go" as well.

The right wood is very important when going very thin or doing small detail work. Now I will conceed that I am partial to the super thin, super delicate finials and that thin is not for everyone's taste. African Blackwood is fantastic to work with, as is the rosewood family of woods.

[Jamie Donaldson]

One of my favored finial turning tools is a Thompson 1/2" (3/8" U flute) bowl gouge, as well as a 1/2" spindle or Thompson detail gouge with long bevel and relieved heel. Scott made a good point with the L hand behind the cutting area and R manipulating the cutting tool. Solid hardwoods like cherry, hard maple, and dogwood make excellent finial stock for those of us who can't afford a big supply of blackwood like the "Big Guys!" And the more you practice, the luckier you get!

[David DeCristoforo]

" And the more you practice, the luckier you get!"

http://www.daviddecristoforo.com/Misc/rofl.gif

[Philip Berman]

There's a 3-part video on youtube done by Rob Millard. I'm not a turner but found his instruction to be very informative. Take a look - http://youtu.be/fpiOOMHHA-U

Philip

[John Keeton]

This is an interesting thread!! So many individual techniques - just proves most of us just fight our way thru a few of them and develop a method that works for us.

On supporting the tool, I always hold the handle. I am right handed, but with my left hand I have used my thumb and middle finger to hold the end of the gouge while applying counterpressure with my index finger to the back side of the finial. That permits me very close control of the tool.

Lots of different ways to do this - just find one that feels safe and comfortable. And, as noted, practice, practice, practice!! The "break" percentages go down pretty rapidly once you develop a technique.

[Kathy Marshall]

Here's another thought. I'm certainly no expert having just recently fallen into the mini vortex of finial work, but being the queen of green (wood that is), if you're turning a finial from green wood, do small sections (about 1" or so) at a time leaving plenty of stock at the headstock end. I've found with most green wood that as soon as you get it thin, it's going to start warping out of round. When that happens you just have to leave that section alone and move to the next section, and if you need to do any touch ups, you'll have to do it with sandpaper.
Of course turning a green finial means you most likely won't have a straight finial when you're finished, but sometime the curve adds a little interest (at least that's what I tell myself).

[Don McLeod]

I know that in most things practice, practice, practice and this is especially true in turning. I know a fellow turner that turns finials and makes it look so easy ( that practice thing again), his weapon of choice is a Skewchigouge. (made by crown tools and available I suspect where ever they are sold)

[Steve Vaughan]

Thanks for a great thread here! I'm learning and learning!

[Dale Miner]

I'm suprised no one has indicated that one of the weapons of choice for finials is a skew. For me, a skew and a fingernail detail gouge are the only two tools needed for a finial, unless you count the hatchet that I use when in a show off mood. But yes, supporting the work with fingers is needed regardless of the tool used, and all cuts must be bevel rubbing. Scraping cuts will start a chatter in the thinner sections that is tough to get rid of.

Some folk make the pointy end of the finial towards the headstock, some make the pointy end towards the tailstock. I am of the latter.

I chuck the stock, and put only the tip of the point of the live center in the stock. The center will seldom rotate at the speed of the stock, as little pressure is used. Excess pressure from the tailstock is a sure way to have trouble. The point engagment is only to help support the piece when knocking the corners off, and help with deadening vibration when the piece is thin. The support when cutting comes mostly from the fingers either behind or underneath depending on what cut and tool is being used, especially when the diameter gets small. I will usually rest the heel of my right hand on the live center housing or on the tool rest, wrap my hand and fingers around the stock, and manipulate the tool with the left hand. Often, the fingers supporting the stock will also make contact with the tool, helping to guide and control the cut. Work the diameter of the finial down in steps, leaving the stock large for support in the area that is not being taken to final dimension. With the pointy end towards the tailstock, the diameter of the tenon or 'fit' must be checked with a calipers. With the pointy end towards the headstock, the fit can be checked by trial with the intended vessel. For the pointy end toward tailstock, leave enough waste so that the point of the center does not enter the intended end of the finial. Once the turning and sanding of everything but the very tip is complete, take the tailstock away, support the finial behind the tip with the fingers, and finish the tip by turning the waste off with a skew or detail gouge. If the finial is intended to have a 'hangy down' thing inside the vessel, then work the stock towards the headstock finishing it as you go, including sanding. Cut the piece loose from the chucked stock with the tip of the detail gouge, or the toe of a skew using fingers as a sort of very very low pressure spindle steady. If no 'hangy down' thing is intended, support the piece with fingers and part the piece off with light cuts and a bit of undercut so the finial will stand by itself when not in the vessel. For me, a finial without an inverted detail (hangy down thing) should have a snap fit into the vessel. The snap fit prevents the finial from falling out when the vessel is moved. If it has an inverted detail, a loose fit is fine, as the weight of the inverted detail keeps the finial stable during movement of the vessel. I don't glue finials in, as everyone tries to pull them out so they can stick a finger in.

The first finial I saw with a 'hangy down' thing was by Lowell Converse. If the details are made right (his was), the finial can be used with either end up.

The tops and icicles of christmas ornaments are very good items to develop long thin spindle technique. Cherry is a pretty good wood for the icicles if dyeing black is intended. Holly makes very nice white icicles, and turns well to boot. Hard maple is also good, but it is hard compared to cherry and holly, and requires taking lighter cuts.

[Vince Welch]

Hi Matt,

Again this is a great question. In my local club I am organizing our June meeting around holiday ornaments which include finials. By now you may be to the point of understanding there is nothing like first hand instruction. If you belong to a local club find a member to ask or use a club video if available... Outside of that idea you may think about starting your own video collection. That is what I have done and refer to various CD often. Someone who comes to mind is Bob Rosand. Bob makes lots of small project work such as ornaments, candle holders, etc etc. I just spent the weekend with him down at Southern States symposium where he was a featured demostrator demonstrator. I beleive he has a video or two out that may be helpful. Vince

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Pick a really nice piece of wood. Buy the most expensive tools and sharpen them to perfection. Spend hours laboring over a drawing until it is what you want. Then, and here is the real secret, put the tools on your rack, pack the wood and the drawings in a box for USPS and ship it to John or David and ask them to turn it for you. :)
faust

[Jim Maxwell]

If you split the timber with a small axe instead of turning sawn timber, you will have less breakages.
Jim

[John Hart]

Pick a really nice piece of wood. Buy the most expensive tools and sharpen them to perfection. Spend hours laboring over a drawing until it is what you want. Then, and here is the real secret, put the tools on your rack, pack the wood and the drawings in a box for USPS and ship it to John or David and ask them to turn it for you. :)
faust

I'm in. I didn't realize it could be so easy!! Faust, you've opened my eyes with your detailed procedure. Thank you. This is what I've been looking for. All this time, I've been doing it wrong.