A Garage Shop Underway - Finally!

[John Scarpa]

After a long haitus from woodworking and soon to be completed treatments for an illness I'm making prepartations to create a shop in the family 2 car garage. While I couldn't get out in the shop I have been busy researching and buying equipment. :D The big challenge seems to be finding a way to share the space with the LOML's storage needs. I have about 4 cabinets with household stuff in them. A fifth one is tempoarily housing tools. ;)

I'm planning on placing the Oneida dust collector in the corner of the shop and perhaps build an enclosure for it to share with a compressor.

However I think my first challenge is going to be finding a way to strenghthen the space above to be able to handle tempoary household storage like Christmas decorations etc.

[John Scarpa]

I'll also try and get a floor plan loaded. Glad to be back posting at SMC.

[Frank Pellow]

It's nice to get started on something like this after all the planning isn't it, John?

Last year, I started to build my new workshop in early spring and had a lot of fun doing it. The folks at Saw Mill Creek were a BIG help to me on my project and I hope that this proves to be true for you as well.

By the way, I have the same dust control system (but no compressor).

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Try to get some better pictures of the ceiling of your shop. I am sure that they guys here will be able to help you with ideas on how to strengthen it for storage. Also, 2x6s on edge should hold most household storage needs.

[Tyler Howell]

Looks Like your ready to rock John! Have fun;)

[John Scarpa]

Frank,
Thanks, I have read through your shop threads and have picked up alot. You were very thorough in your planning and execution!

Jeff,
Thanks, I am going to take some more photos of the overhead space as I am a little stumped on what is "legal" and what can be done for carrying a light load up there. I have to get passed this hurdle I figure before I mount the cyclone and run electrical.

Tyler,
Yes I'm looking forward to lots of fun! :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John...I'm in the "finishing" portion of my new shop. I was thinking of the same arrangement with the a/c and the d/c in the same room. Somebody here pointed out to me that the d/c would throw out some dust and potentially prematurely plug the filter on my a/c. Now.....I'm going to put them in separate compartments. Good luck with your new shop!

[John Scarpa]

Ken,
I've been reading about your shop. Looks great! I appreciate the tip trying to avoid the cyclone and a/c in the same closet. I may have to do it anyway as I'm quickly learning about space limitations! :rolleyes: I'll give folks a little better picture of what I'm up against in the attic space and get a draft floor plan loaded, I hope, tonight.
John

[Steve Stube]

Even if you put both the compressor and cyclone in the same room but draw inlet air for the compressor from say the shop or outside, filter requirements should not be a problem. I'd rather do a little plumbing than give up space for another wall.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looks like you're off to a good start! It's always cool to see someone's shop come to life!!

[John Scarpa]

Steve,
I understand what you are saying about not wanting to give up an extra wall for the compressor and DC. I think Jim Becker came up with a solution for that and will revisit his thread.

Kelly, Thanks! I'm really excited to get back to the shop.

John

[John Scarpa]

I've taken a picture of the attic area above the garage.
I have to solve my LOML's storage needs before I can get underway :)

[John Scarpa]

This is my latest shop layout. I keep changing it! :rolleyes: I've penciled in how I think the DC ducting will run.

John

[Tom Sontag]

I completed a similar shop in a two bay garage two years ago and have already managed to find ways to store the non-woodworking stuff in other places. Your loft space is even better than what I have and I use mine extensively, primarily for lumber storage. I ended up placing a 4x12 glue lam beam across the midpoint to support and tie in extra 2x6 joists. 2x6 joists are not meant to take much weight for that span - I would build yours up as you would a second floor.

I probably store and dry more wood than the average creeker, but my whole point is that you should keep 'other' storage in flexible, not fixed, out-of-the-way places and add structural strength to that 'floor'. Once you settle in and really begin to feel the space (especially overhead if it your first taste of that kind like mine was), you will find ways to put seasonal decorations etc. in locations where they can be better stored. You certainly would not want to get sawdust on any of that other stuff!

It has taken me a full 2 years to really appreciate and maximize the new space. If your experience is similar, prepare to have the configuration you decide upon evolve.

My main DC ducting is above the joists too.

Why would you place the MM16 where it needs to be pulled out each time instead of along that empty wall in the bottom of your layout?

[John Scarpa]

I completed a similar shop in a two bay garage two years ago and have already managed to find ways to store the non-woodworking stuff in other places. Your loft space is even better than what I have and I use mine extensively, primarily for lumber storage. I ended up placing a 4x12 glue lam beam across the midpoint to support and tie in extra 2x6 joists. 2x6 joists are not meant to take much weight for that span - I would build yours up as you would a second floor
Tom,
Your approach with the 4x12 glue lam beam sounds like such a very good idea. Did you support yours on top of existing wall plates or put in supporting posts? I see a check with the city and structural engineer in my near future!




It has taken me a full 2 years to really appreciate and maximize the new space. If your experience is similar, prepare to have the configuration you decide upon evolve.
Knowing me that it will be the same




My main DC ducting is above the joists too.

Did you go with metal ducting? I'm thinking I may go with S&D PVC so I can easily reconfigure as I'm sure I will want to change it alot over the first few years :rolleyes:



Why would you place the MM16 where it needs to be pulled out each time instead of along that empty wall in the bottom of your layout?
Tom, That's where the garage door is but.........I will play with that idea. As long as I can get my LOML's car in the right hand side as you look at the layout it will work. Everything is on wheels or will be.

John

[Tom Sontag]

Tom,
1 Your approach with the 4x12 glue lam beam sounds like such a very good idea. Did you support yours on top of existing wall plates or put in supporting posts?

2 Did you go with metal ducting? I'm thinking I may go with S&D PVC

3 Tom, That's where the garage door is but.........I will play with that idea. As long as I can get my LOML's car in the right hand side as you look at the layout it will work. Everything is on wheels or will be.

John

John, have a seat. We need to talk. 1 and 2 above we will deal with quite soon, but 3 is a problem. Car? CAR!!??

I will try to not get emotional about this, but it must be very clear to you and yours that the space is no longer a "garage" in the "car parking place" sense. It is a shop! $100 for a car cover will be the best investment for your shop ever. And you only need to install it when weather threatens for the first year.

Now that we have completely opened up an entire wall, well, you can thank me later.

1 - I installed my beam on the new wall I put in - my bare wall was the inside of exterior brick. I doubled the posts and tripled the wall plate. I cannot tell if your beam would end up resting over the garage/shop door, but this would not be good.

2 - I used PVC.

[John Scarpa]

I will try to not get emotional about this, but it must be very clear to you and yours that the space is no longer a "garage" in the "car parking place" sense. It is a shop! $100 for a car cover will be the best investment for your shop ever. And you only need to install it when weather threatens for the first year.
:D Actually the LOML is not hung on parking in there as the garage has been full for sometime, it was just an original design parameter and I will try to adhere to it so that I can get a car in there if I need to That will probably end up being special situations only! ;) . I'll post another layout option soon.



1 - I installed my beam on the new wall I put in - my bare wall was the inside of exterior brick. I doubled the posts and tripled the wall plate. I cannot tell if your beam would end up resting over the garage/shop door, but this would not be good.
:( That's where it would logically fit given the current joist direction. There are 3 2x4s, (essentially 6x4s) on each end supporting the header that spans the 16' opening.

[Dave Harker]

John,

I don't have the knowledge to comment on your main question regarding strengthening your trusses.

However, I recently converted part of my garage into a shop, adding insulation, heat, subpanel, attic venting, etc, etc. I also built a shelf for my DC to sit on, above my compressor, similar to your goal of minimizing footprint of these.

Here is a link to my shop webpage, it has a link near the top to another page showing my remodel, with lots of text about the remodel as well. Perhaps you can steal some ideas...

my shop (http://webpages.charter.net/harkerhome/WWShop/shopoverview.html)

Good luck!
Dave

[John Scarpa]

Dave,

Thanks! I enjoyed the shop tour and found your progressive photos a big help. I liked the idea of recording the wiring before insulation and drywall go up. I'll use that. I also liked what you did with the CMS height giving you a comfortable height to work at and the added storage space. You were way a head of me on running tv and phone lines out there! Makes sense :)

[Dave Harker]

John, glad you enjoyed the page. I cannot claim credit for the phone and tv-cable, the jacks were already in the garage, but on the common wall with the house (opposite end from my shop area). All I did was extend them prior to putting up drywall, so I could actually use them. The phone has been quite handy, esp. when kids are playing on the driveway in the summer, no need to carry a wireless phone outside, just run into the garage if it rings...

good luck,
Dave

[John Scarpa]

Here's a little update on my shop attic space:

I called a structural engineer I found via "Google" and he quoted me 10 hours to draw up additional/strengthened joists and a drop down ladder for my garage after I get him a parcel map and a "to scale" sketch of the garage and adjoining house walls. That's about $1,000 at his rate.

Does that sound about right? I am a complete novice when it comes to contracting for structural engineering services. I will call a few more. I'm finding out that this job is smaller than alot of these guys want to deal with.

Right now all if have in that space are a few 2x6's spanning 23 ft.

I need to get something spec'd out so that I can get it framed, then call in an electrician, then drywall the space.

[Frank Pellow]

I was lucky with my shop. I have two brothers in law who are structural engineers. One of them, Rob, looked at my shop plans and suggested modifications and all it cost me was a case (24 bottles) of "exotic" beers that I selected. It cost me about $75 (Cdn) in total and I even got to "help" Rob dispose of some of the beer.

I just checked with Rob and he said that he spent about 6 hours doing the work.

[John Scarpa]

Frank,
Thanks for the feedback that was very helpful. Hmmmm 24 bottles of beer. I like that! :) and 6 hours would cut my outlay in half. I'll keep trying.
John

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John, it looks like your project is going they way mine sometimes do. A few years ago I had to replace the header for my carport. I wrote down all the pertinant information and went to the lumber yard. When I told them what I wanted, they placed a call to the company from whom they purchase glue-lam beams. The company structural engineer got on the phone. I gave him the information concerning my carport. He spec'd the header. I ordered the header; drew up the plans. When I presented them to the city building code department, they asked "how'd you spec the header?" I told them how it got spec'd and they gave me my permit. It might be worth a try!

Good luck with your project!

[Ray Bersch]

John, Take your photos and drawings to a lumber yard that supplies the glue lams - most likely they can spec out the size of lam beam to use - I do that locally in NJ - I think you may need two spaced evenly from front to back of the garage if you want to take advanatage of all the available space. You will need to install posts - the same thickness as the glue lam - for the glue lam to sit on and they should be solid from under the top plate to down to the bottom plate (or floor.) Then you can run 2x6's as ceiling joists supported by the lam beams.

You will have some problems fitting the glue lams onto the posts. Your roof will interfere with the depth of the glue lam - the existing joists are likely cut on an angle (splayed) to fit - doing that to the glue lam will weaken the beam, but you may have no choice. It does not appear that you can drop the new lam beams below the top plate to make room because your garage door tracks appear to be in the way so consider putting a ceiling only above the area outside of the garage door swing and dropping the lam beam (and thus the new ceiling (floor of storage area) below the current top plate -

It is not a good idea to use those 2x4's from the ridge beam down to the current 2x6 used for a ceiling joist, at least not if you want to put any weight up there. It appears that your roof joists sit on a "knee wall" type of structure rather than directly onto the top plate of the wall and there is nothing keeping the knee wall from bulging out if additional roof load is placed on them. Only the collar ties are keeping the roof from sagging or adding too much load to the knee wall. (Snow load alone in my area would preclude that type of construction, but I guess rain does not weigh as much even if it does come down continuously!:D )

If you want to stay on the good side of the wife, be sure to protect her stuff from dust - that was something I gave thought to only after I had to clean the mess I made - even had a decent DC system or so I thought.

Good luck - you have a great start.
Ray

(Gosh, was Ken's comments there when I started to write my post??)

[John Scarpa]

Talk about slow progress! Am I setting the record for how long it takes to set up a shop? Long as in = forever! :o An illness, the big 'C' slowed me down much more than I expected but the doctor has given me a clean bill of health! Watch out now! :D

I finally got some storage space in the minimal space above the garage and will put in a drop down ladder within the week to get the LOML's Christmas decorations etc. up there. I'm getting "big" help from Mark, a contractor friend of mine. Evidence of a cleaner garage and glimpse of the new joists. An airconditioner will get mounted at the uper left hand corner of the picture where you see the square of plywood that is covering the opening for now.
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We've framed in a closet for the Oneida 2hp dust collector.
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This is a shot of what will be an 'S' shaped duct to return air from the closet.
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The framing is done and the electrical is well under way with more pics to follow. I've kept the layout essentially the same as I posted some time ago. So the electircal drops remain essentiall the same too. I'll put the new one up later with more updates.

Life is good!

[Art Mulder]

Hi John,
Just read through the complete thread... I almost replied to an earlier post, but then I noticed the date. So I was really curious to know what I'd find when I got to the more current posts.

Glad to hear that your health is allowing you to get back to this project!

I'm rather surprised that no one else has commented on this ... My concern is the presence of that washer/dryer combo. I would not want a washer/dryer in my shop. Even with a good dust collector, there is STILL going to be some dust in the shop.

[Mark Pruitt]

John, Glad to hear you beat "The big C" as you call it.:) Good for you. Here's hoping for extended health and much, much more woodworking!

BTW I agree with Art about the washer/dryer. If I had them in my shop I'd never hear the end of SWMBO....."I can't even wash clothes!!!":eek:

[Frank Pellow]

Make that three folks who recommend against a washer and drier in the shop.

We had that in our garage shop when we lived in England, and it was a constant source of disagreement between my wife and myself.

[Jim Becker]

Looking great, John! And 'glad to hear your health is on the right track. Ditto on the washer/dryer comments...

[Greg Sznajdruk]

John:

What is the span of your garage? What head room do you have in your loft area? What is the head room in your garage?

If you have sufficient head room, you may consider installing joist and decking the floor of the loft. If you have enough head room in the garage you could move the loft floor down to increase the head room in your loft.

I did this in my garage and ended up with a loft with 7 foot head room to the ties. Since it was 24 feet wide I used wood I joist.

The lapped 2 by 6 are Structurally un sound. All municipalities have codes regarding span. For example a 2 by 8 can not span more than eleven feet.

(EDIT) Boy it looks like a missed a whole section of this post. As far as using a structural engineer they can be costly. Most Building Departments are quite helpfully. You may consider going down and speak to a building inspector and run by what you would like to do. They generally will tell you what they will pass on inspection.
Greg

[John Scarpa]

Art, Mark, Frank and Jim,
Unfortunately with the layout of the house I'm stuck sharing the garage with the washer dryer. However, these comments have me thinking. I may have to section them off with some permanent walls or a closet arrangement. I need to think that one over and find an approach that makes sense or the LOML will not be happy. Wish I had a lot big enough for a separate building!

It is great being back at this project though. I feel like a school kid at Christmas!

[John Scarpa]

Greg,

I have installed joist decking above although there is not much usable headroom up there, about 3 ft on one end and not much on the other. The center may have 4 ft of usuable space. the span is approximately 20 ft so we removed all of the lapped 2x6s and installed a combination of built in truss and strong back. No room for Ijoists with the small pitch in the roof. This makes it only useable for supporting it's own dead weight and light duty storage as in the LOML's seasonal decorations. I seriously considered staying with off site storage as I don't really gain much for my trouble..... Except...I have something to insulate and attach lights too :) The side benefit is it avoids $1,000 in annual storage fees which will make some difference in retirement. Understand that $1000 a year in California gets you a small closet! :eek: Oh the head room in the garage is 8 ft. The only thing below that will be the lights and the cyclones piping. I decided not to run the piping in the loft space as I would have to lift the LOML's containers over it in the bent over position. Not a fun proposition as I get older!

[John Scarpa]

Well things are moving right along. The wiring is complete and the insulation is in. The drywall is starting to go up so there will be more pics later. I'm repeating the compressor/cyclone closet each time as a point of reference. It is all very exciting for me!

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[Jerry Olexa]

John, I'm a latecomer to this thread but I'd be very concerned about 2X6's with a span of over 20 Ft. You need a beam running under them at least at approx center point to cut that span at least in half. 2X6's with a load at even 12' span is pushing it. I'd prefer 2X8's. When I'm doing 16 ft span, I go 2X 10's or better. The other option is to convert to true trusses and then span is less of an issue. Your engineer will know but your wallet will suffer. Just my 2 cents...

[John Scarpa]

Jerry,

Thanks, you are right to be concerned had I left it that way. The sistered 2x6's were all removed and replaced by 2x8s. Some were doubled up and there is a strong back they are tied to at the center point. With the plywood decking on there is absolutely no flex across the span.

John

[John Scarpa]

Well the drywall is all up and I'm finding myself looking at older pictues to see if we covered up any outlets! :eek: As you can see things are pretty crowded in the work area and thats with things stashed all over the property to make room. the good news as we'll be finsihed soon just mud, paint and then the floor. I figuerd I'll get it epoxied while everything is out of there. Well it will be empty for the few days to paint and cure.
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[Roy Wall]

John -

You are getting close!!! Looking good:) ......

Were you planning on the epoxy floor all along.....?? I'm no expert, but I'm not sure how durable they are?? .......as in 3-5 years tops....???? I know they look good at first....just wondering how you decided on the floor? (if the LOYL said "do it" ; then this case is settled!!:cool: )

[John Scarpa]

Roy,

I had thought about epoxied floors but didn't make up my mind until I was underway with the project. I realized it was my one opportunity. I think I'll get 10 years out of it. I'm going for the epoxy, then flakes to add traction then a two part polymer clear coat with a catalyst. IF I can manage to take care of the coating it should last a long time. I wonder what others experiences have been?

[Vaughn McMillan]

John, I put the speckled-flake epoxy paint on my laundry/mud room floor. (Previously it was a bare concrete slab in a covered breezeway between the house and garage.) So far, no blemishes despite scooting the washer and dryer and a couple large cabinets around on it. Also, when the paint was only about a week old, I dropped a 2" wide steel cold chisel onto the floor from ceiling height while "trimming" some stucco. It hit hard and bounced, but I was unable to see any mark on the floor where it fell. It's less than two years old, but with the exception of recurring dog hair and occasional mud, the floor paint looks new.

- Vaughn

[John Scarpa]

Vaughn,

Now that's encouraging news regarding the durability of this type of coating! :)

[John Scarpa]

Well time has gone by and I haven't reported back in a while. We finished up the drywall, painted and mounted lights & electrical. You will notice some electrical drops in the garage...er.. shop! :) I decided on these so I wouldn't have to lay cords on floor. The lights are 4 foot, T8 fixtures with 4 lights per fixture. There are 8 of them so I will have adequate light. There is a drop down ladder between the first rows of lights, a very convienient addition. My contractor friend Mark suggested I would be better served with a window in the access door. That was an excellent suggestion as I get a great deal more light in the shop now.

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I hope to start moving things back in this weekend.

[Al Willits]

I might suggest to run the air intake of the compressor outside, does a few things that way, draws cleaner air from outside and when your using air for things like painting or making sawdust, it also pressurizes the shop/garage to help vent flumes/sawdust/whatever outside.

Not sure for wood, but this set up make a fairly large difference when I used to paint motorcycles.

I also found a air cleaner housing off a large garden tractor and piped that in, looks like a small auto air cleaner and is easy to replace.

Just a thought.

Al

[John Scarpa]

Al,

That's interesting. I'll have to think about that some more with respect to my particular layout. thank for the tip!

[Al Willits]

It's also more than a bit quieter inside, but might bother the neighbors if they're fairly close, I have a 5 hp Ingersoll Rand and built a small box around the air cleaner to muffle the sound.


Been a while, almost forgot the garden tractor air cleaner has the bottom upside down and a small automotive cylindrical air cleaner between the bottom plate and the cover.
Requires a bit of welding/brazing for mine, but you could do it without I think.
Considering most compressor air cleaners are a pain to work with, the time it took to make was well worth it.
It also flows much more air this way.

Email me if you want and I'll take a picture of it, I'm not describing it very well I think.

Al