Crosscutting & Dovetail Marking

[Ben Beckham]

I'm just trying to get away from the meat cutter, I mean table saw, here....

Basic question: When you crosscut a piece of stuff intended to be dovetailed to another piece, do you guys mark and cut the joinery right off the saw, or do you smooth the end grain on a shooting board first? Or is there some other method I haven't thought of?

Maybe it's because I don't own any decent backsaws yet, but I don't think I could dovetail right off the saw. I do have a few Bad Axes on order right now though. I know you're supposed to leave the tails and pins about 1/32" long and plane smooth after assembly, so shooting every end square and smooth seems like more work than necessary. But at the same time, can the cut be square enough and the marking accurate enough for quality work right off the saw?

Just looking for an elementary lesson, or at least an enlightening web link. Thanks guys!

[Adam Cormier]

I can cut dovetails right from my table saw. All you have to do is use a square to ensure your table saw cuts straight and the end is 90*.

That being said, I usually run the end through the shooting board just so I can more easily see the lines I scribe in the end to cut my dovetails. I don't need to do this, but it makes it easier visually to see my marks.

[Jim Matthews]

Bridge city tools has a split sled that makes this pretty easy...it's the essential idea in their "meat powered" Jointmaker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmp2x5VxKhM

This video shows cutting tails.
To cut the pins, you must tip the blade.

Mark a fine line, and cut to it (leave some of the mark) for best fit.

You need squared stock to work this way. I like to take a single pass on the tail board with my block plane, to register with the pin board for marking.
Leave them a little long, and plane flush when you're done.

When you start cutting them by hand, practice first to warm up (great idea from Gary Rogowski).
It's MUCH more fun with a decent handsaw.

Quiet, too.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Adam certainly has a better table saw than mine; but I pretty much count on the CMS, which does a somewhat better job than I do by hand. However, I generally run all end cuts through the shooting board, since no saw is all that reliable; and perfectly square ends are vital for dovetailing.

Pam

[gary Zimmel]

One more that shoots all the ends. Only takes a few seconds and then I know they are just so...
Like Adam said it makes it easier to see the scribe lines. Especially in white oak.
My eyes need all the help they can get. ;)

[Andrew Gibson]

I also have taken to shooting all end grain... I tend to shoot everything I might otherwise have to sand... basically if it's end grain and I can, I shoot it.

[Matt Evans]

I will shoot the boards if I use power to cross cut, or if I cross cut freehand. If I use my hand miter box, I generally don't bother. That said, I use a large panel gauge to mark the baseline, so the reference surface is large and very forgiving. Something about having 9" reference contact that makes you have a pretty good line even if the cut wasn't perfect. . .

My philosophy is that the I know I am cutting an accurate 90 most of the time. I know this because I scribe a 90 degree line then cut to it, whether it is power or hand power. Since I have that reference, I automatically know off the saw if it is off by a bit, and make the adjustment right then and there with a second cut, or shooting board. If its right on, then there is no need to shoot the end, since it gets planed down a bit anyhow after the joint is glued.

[Jim Koepke]

Even when my knife scribed line is visible all the way around the cut piece and it is as square as can be off the saw, it still gets "cleaned up" on the shooting board.

My marking is done with a Tite-Mark and smaller tools. It helps to have a clean surface to register them.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Regardless of what type of saw is used, I saw just shy of the scored line, and then shoot to this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Terry Beadle]

Shooting is good. If it done right, the squareness is assured and if I had one of Derek's beautiful shooting boards, I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to dance. However, using a marking knife and a machinist square is more accurate than a TightMark style of gauge.

It also depends on what tolerances you are trying to maintain on the piece. A tool box to hold some scrap wedges would not need fine square ends but a secret hidden dove tail joint would.

[Ed Looney]

I also have taken to shooting all end grain... I tend to shoot everything I might otherwise have to sand... basically if it's end grain and I can, I shoot it.

Andrew couldn't say it better so will simply say,+ 1.

Ed

[Pam Niedermayer]

...My philosophy is that the I know I am cutting an accurate 90 most of the time. I know this because I scribe a 90 degree line then cut to it, whether it is power or hand power. Since I have that reference, I automatically know off the saw if it is off by a bit, and make the adjustment right then and there with a second cut, or shooting board. If its right on, then there is no need to shoot the end, since it gets planed down a bit anyhow after the joint is glued.

There are two angles in a cross cut that I worry about, across the board and across the end. If either is even slightly off 90°, which I find pretty easy to do, the piece needs to be shot (shooted? :)).

Pam

[Ben Beckham]

Looks like the shooting board is very much a staple in the Neander shop for producing parts to size.

Very well then, from now on, all squares in my shop will be shot. Yep, I said it.

I made a shooting board last night and was testing it out and finding it very difficult to get square ends. I would trim the end, flip it over, and it wouldn't be square. I got frustrated with the whole thing. I'm starting to think the test piece I was using didn't have parallel sides and that's why it looked like the end wasn't square when I flipped it. I'm going to try the whole exercise again this evening and see if I can get better results.

Almost bought a LV LA Jack today. Might still do it tomorrow. My Stanley #6 and #60.5 seem to work well, but that LV LAJ is calling my name.

[Frank Drew]

IMO, if you're going to use a table saw or other powered crosscut saw, you should be able to get very smooth, accurate results (no shooting necessary); with a handsaw or handsaw miter box, though, the cut might well need shooting to clean up the end grain.

[Derek Cohen]

That's true, Frank, but up to a point. It depends on what you are building and how accurately you can saw with the powered tool. Not accurate square but accurate length. Working to a line is what woodworking is about. Shooting allows one to do this with less chance of error. And then it allows you to fine tune the length in minute amounts that no power saw can approach.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

I need to ask a dumb question - how do you keep the end grain from pulling away from the unsupported edge at the end of the shooting stroke? Do you have a sacrificial piece there?

[Pam Niedermayer]

I need to ask a dumb question - how do you keep the end grain from pulling away from the unsupported edge at the end of the shooting stroke? Do you have a sacrificial piece there?

The unsupported edge is very, very short.

Pam

[Terry Beadle]

How do you keep the end grain from pulling away from the unsupported edge.....

The way to do it is to do a counter cut on the destination end before you do the main forward stroke.

To be clearer: Let's say you have a board you want to shoot. The edge nearest you will be called A. The edge furtherest from you will be called B.

Step one: Place the edge B near to you with edge A furtherest from you. Take a very short 1 ~ 2 thou shaving towards edge A on edge B. This will create a very small campher. The work piece should be canted at a slight angle with edge A away from the butt end board for this step.

Step two: Place the edge A near to you with edge B furtherest from you. Take the full stroke.

Repeat step one and two as needed.

Generally edge B is the datum edge with the datum flat, flat to the surface of the shooting board.
With practice you can judge how much you need to remove to get to the cut line. This judgement will allow you to perhaps take more than one campher stroke on edge B before you go to true-ing edge A thru to edge B.

David Charlesworth has a DVD on shooting board techniques. He shows the above methodology clearly and also shows how to use post it notes placed on the shooting board butt end and flat surface as a means for true-ing the work piece ends to exactly 90 in both directions. Ie..verticle and horizontal surfaces of the work piece. He doesn't recommend shooting boards over 1/2 inch thick as his block plane and bench plane video shows how to true the thicker boards. Basically, he's saying the thicker boards require too much thrust to control as well on a shooting board.

[Johnny Kleso]

Cut your boards a tad over size and cut your dovetails a tad deep then plane the drawer to fit the case..

Some people make the back of a case and back of a drawer a tad wider so when the drawer opened wide the fit gets tighter and helps stop you from pulling the drawer out of the case

[Sam Babbage]

To be fair, a panel saw with a digital crosscut fence will "shoot" to virtually the same precision (2 thou-ish) in seconds rather than minutes

[Pat Barry]

Terry - thanks for the explanation - makes perfect sense.

[Jim Neeley]

+1 on Charlesworth's video. I watched it last night. Good tips as well as techniques. I had never conciously thought of it as a move-lock-cut motion before, but it makes really good sense!

[Frank Drew]

To be fair, a panel saw with a digital crosscut fence will "shoot" to virtually the same precision (2 thou-ish) in seconds rather than minutes

Or a sliding table saw with a screw stop on the far end that can advance the workpiece incrementally. As you note, sometimes it depends on what you have in your shop and how much time you want to spend on a given task.

[Derek Cohen]

I need to ask a dumb question - how do you keep the end grain from pulling away from the unsupported edge at the end of the shooting stroke? Do you have a sacrificial piece there?

Hi Pat

There are two essential strategies.

Many attempt use the fence on the shooting board to spelching spelching (breakout) when shootiong an edge. This is incorrect. The fence may work in this way initially, but once the plane is set for a slightly deeper cut, it will remove the supporting fence ... and then what?

The first strategy is to chamfer the rear edge of the board, and work to that point.

Use a plane or, preferably, use a paring chisel to remove the waste to the line ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_6da4ff98.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Setting%20Up%20and%20Using%20a%20Shooting%20Board4 _html_785f215a.jpg

Then plane to the edge of the chamfer.

The second strategy is follows from the awareness that this is not always possible - such as when there is just one shaving to remove. While a very fine shaving must be taken (rather take a few of them than one large one), there will still be a little spelching. The trick is to work to the reference side, but leave enough wide on the opposite side that you can remove one or more shavings from the reference side to complete the sizing of the board. This will remove signs of spelching.

Regards from Perth

Derek