Where Have all the Full Size Hand Saw Makers Gone?

[Steve Friedman]

I know spending several hundred dollars on a full size hand saw may seem excessive, but are there any craftsman out there still making high-end full size hand saws? I love Lie-Nielsen and would buy one if they made them. The only one I could find was by Mike Wenzloff - and I am guessing he'll have a multiple-year backlog when he starts producing again.

I have heard amazing things about refurbished saws by Mark Harrrell (Bad Axe) and others, but would prefer to pay a bit more if I could get a new one. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Steve

[David Weaver]

Making full-sized saws is a specialized venture if you're going to taper them and do it well. I'm not sure how wenzloff does it, but I remember Jeff at Sharp Tools (Tormek) mentioning that Mike was the only person he could recall who had a tormek quit because it "wore out" from grinding sawblades.

I don't know what LN does to taper their plates. IIRC the old sawmakers had very large setups of grind stones that ground the taper on saws, and it's likely that most people (saw makers) are going to be looking for more $$ for their time than they'll get tapering saws. The handles are also larger, and larger means more work. Most of the "new guys" probably don't have machine setups like disston did to do most of the shaping on a mass production basis. Doing a handle much larger means bigger demands on your time.

I'm sure all of the good saw makers who refurbish saws will do a good job of coming up with a saw that is every bit as good as a new saw, and probably for less money. The only trouble with that is you then have a saw that if you use it much at all, it becomes a "used saw from steve friedman" instead of a "freshly refurbished saw from Mark Harrell or Daryl Weir", so you want to make sure the saw is one that you want to keep.

How do you feel about refurbishing the saws yourself? I have found it pretty easy to find pin straight old saws on the internet (including 3 #12s - two of them even still with legible etch) for the $25-$60 range, all of them with all of their teeth needing only about an hour to an hour and a half of time to have ready to go. No matter how rank the beginner, you will not be able to do enough damage to a rip saw (filing it) to not have a good usable saw when you're done with it, and certainly not something that can't be improved as you get better at filing. You can certainly booger up the teeth on a crosscut saw a little, but once you get your bearings, fixing any problems you have created is quick and certainly won't take up much tooth depth.

If you really don't want to do that and want a new saw, I'd wait for mike to come back for a long saw, or get the LN. If you can't find what you want in a new saw, I'd bug daryl weir, or acharaya (on here), who from the pictures of the tooth line does work that is superb for the price he charges for it. Or Mark at bad axe, if he didn't do good work, we'd know it by now, and his prices on old saws look decent, especially considering that he's making a living (i think) with saws.

[Pedder Petersen]

Hi,
as mentioned, Mike and his sons make full sized hand saws and Ed Paik in Oakville Canada does. http://www.medalliontools.com/Full-Sized-Saws.html

Dave is absolutly correct, the taper grindng is the major problem to solve. Klaus and I are working on that part.

The other "problem to solve": There are billions of extremly cheap well made hand saws in the US. So every modern saw maker has the famous H. Disston & Sons as competitors. It is so much easier to make better back saws than them as to make better hand saws.

Cheers
Pedder

[Chuck Nickerson]

Saturday I received three rip saws from Ed @ Medallion: 11 tpi, 5-1/2 tpi, and 3 tpi.

I really enjoyed using them this weekend. Photos to follow.

[Steve Friedman]

Hi,
as mentioned, Mike and his sons make full sized hand saws and Ed Paik in Oakville Canada does. http://www.medalliontools.com/Full-Sized-Saws.html

Cheers
Pedder

Thanks. I took a look and, after they are amazing. Had heard of Medallion Tools, just never knew they made full sized saws. Prices are a bit high, but that's what happens when you're the only game in town!

Steve

[Steve Friedman]

Saturday I received three rip saws from Ed @ Medallion: 11 tpi, 5-1/2 tpi, and 3 tpi.

I really enjoyed using them this weekend. Photos to follow.

Wow! Rampant jealousy. But, what happens if you have to cut across the grain?

But seriously, very nice acquisition - waiting for pictures! Do you have any of their other saws?

[george wilson]

When I had been preparing to make Kenyon crosscut and rip saws for the Historic Area,I had gotten together some metal to rig up the means to taper grind the blades. I planned to use a wheel that is of the type used on carbide grinders: they cut on the side,and have a metal plate on their backs. This would have run in a track over the blades. Then,Jay Gaynor told me that the originals weren't taper ground. That was a relief at the time. Of course,Mike says they were tapered,but I was just following orders from the curator at the time.

I wonder how Mike employs a Tormek to taper grind blades?

[Jim Matthews]

I would like to test drive one of these pricey-slicey tools.

My cheapo Sandvik crosscuts like stink on a pig.
My freshly jointed and sharpened Craftsman/Disston from the 1970's does the rest.

It would be something to have a hand to hand contest, in a controlled setting to see what the fuss is all about...

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well, there's always the "sen and a little hammering" approach.

Pam

[Steve Friedman]

Well, there's always the "sen and a little hammering" approach.

Pam

Pam,

That raises an interesting question. My original question referred only to western saws, but I do have some very large, curved Japanese saws that I use for cutting tree limbs. So, what do Japanese woodworkers use that is the equivalent of a full size western handsaw? I don't think I have ever seem a Ryoba longer than 300mm, and (if my math's correct) that's less than 12". Even my longest curved blade saw is only 390mm (less than 15-1/2"). Are there Japanese saws that will rip a piece of 8/4 hardwood as quickly as a full size western rip saw?

Thanks,

Steve

[David Weaver]

>>Are there Japanese saws that will rip a piece of 8/4 hardwood as quickly as a full size western rip saw?<<

Yes (well maybe, maybe fast but probably not as fast as a western saw in normal work), but not those saws for limbing. A large kataba or a large ryoba. It depends on what you call hardwood, but the trick is that a lot of those large tooth rip katabas have a serious amount of hook on them and are a rough ride in hardwoods - I would guess they are intended for softwoods. I have seen mass produced katabas as large as 400mm and ryobas as large 330mm (i don't know that those were mass produced), but even a 300mm ryoba is a coarse saw, and I don't know that you'd want to go larger in terms of ryobas.

I don't have any katabas larger than 330mm, and even those are very rough in hardwoods.

In my opinion, having used only japanese saws for a little while, they are not a match for western saws in rough dimensioning of wood the way you're going to want to with western work - especially hardwoods, and getting them custom made (such that they'd probably have to be sent back to sharpen) for hardwoods would be expensive and still not faster than western saws. My hands do not ache after long rips like they do after several with japanese saws, and I don't have to screw around as much guessing at workholding with a western saw.

Not to mention I can sharpen a western rip saw for the equivalent of $2 a crack.

I still use my japanese saws a lot, though, just not for long cuts.

[David Weaver]

I wonder how Mike employs a Tormek to taper grind blades?

No clue, I would be surprised if they still do it that way. maybe with some spring-loaded rig that put the saw in contact with the stone.

[Terry Beadle]

If you want to rip, then bow saw blades are the answer. They are quicker cutting than panel saws given equal sweat equity. They are easy to sharpen too.

I do find bow saws more awkward to cross cut with but a small frame bow saw ( which I don't have ) would probably solve that problem.

If you've ever seen Tage Frig do his thing with a bow saw, then you would see dove tail cut super fast.

[Pam Niedermayer]

That raises an interesting question. My original question referred only to western saws, but I do have some very large, curved Japanese saws that I use for cutting tree limbs. So, what do Japanese woodworkers use that is the equivalent of a full size western handsaw? I don't think I have ever seem a Ryoba longer than 300mm, and (if my math's correct) that's less than 12". Even my longest curved blade saw is only 390mm (less than 15-1/2"). Are there Japanese saws that will rip a piece of 8/4 hardwood as quickly as a full size western rip saw?...

The answer is an unqualified "yes." You only have to watch someone like Odate at a woodworking show as he resaws hardwood boards to become convinced. I find Japanese saws much faster than the western varieties, with one exception (the LN straight handled dovetail is as fast as my Kaneharu rip kataba). Other western saws I used to use include a Tyzack 14" back saw, very good saw, but no match for my rip dozuki; and a Disston 28" that was OK, but no match for the anabiki. I'm sure there are more exceptions, but I haven't tried them.

Generally you want to go with single sided saws. For large work like beams, an anabiki. I have a Mitsukawa 480 mm from Hida that cross cuts anything, hard or soft. I also have a huge maebiki that rips logs like you wouldn't believe, talk about using the weight of the saw, just hold on and move it from side to side and insert wedges as you go along. Not something I do often, but nice to know I can.

My first Japanese saw was also long and curved. Amazingly, it cross cut most anything, including boards, and would rip, but very slowly.

You can get saws intended for soft- or hardwoods, probably a good idea as the tooth configuration can be optimized; but usually it's just slower going if you don't.

Pam

[David Weaver]

The question is not whether or not odate can do it, but whether or not an average (qualfied, though, as competent) user can do it.

Sticking to the original question of 8/4 (and presumably 4/4 lumber), I think anyone who experiments with both types of saws will find that they can rip more quickly and easily and for longer with (properly selected) western carpenter's saws than they can with japanese saws (just with a simple saw bench or two and a couple of hold downs), be able to tune and sharpen their own saws, and do it much more cheaply.

For smaller stuff where you'll be ripping it in the vise, I don't see an advantage either way, but for what the OP is asking and having used both, western saws are much more practical and faster if the work is to be done in any considerable volume. In 4/4 cherry, it is not difficult to rip 1/2 to 1 inch per stroke of a good sharp carpenter's saw. I have not paid as much attention to how fast the saw moves in 8/4, but it's probably little less than half because it's harder to get the teeth to bite in as much since more are in the cut.

I feel somewhat strongly about this because I tried for two years to convince myself that I didn't want to get into western saws, but ultimately could no longer avoid it when I ditched my table saw.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Wow! Rampant jealousy. But, what happens if you have to cut across the grain?

But seriously, very nice acquisition - waiting for pictures! Do you have any of their other saws?

I have one x-cut from Mike Wenzloff.

These are my first saws from Ed. I've now got an order with him for three x-cut saws.

My backed saws are from Adam Cherubini.

Once the x-cuts come in, my saw nest is complete (except for bowsaws).

Chuck

[David Weaver]

Also waiting for pictures like Steve is! Ed's saws are very nice looking.

I like the choice of the 3tpi saw - just for the sake of having it there if you want to use it on some very thick stock. I have one old Bakewell brand saw that starts around 5 and goes to just over 3 at the heel, but I have never set it up as it has a bit of a frown and I have two other 3 1/2 tooth (4 1/2 point) saws already sharp.

Interested in hearing what your thoughts are about using that one after you use it.

[Pam Niedermayer]

David, actually, no person type was specified, the question was "Are there Japanese saws that will rip a piece of 8/4 hardwood as quickly as a full size western rip saw?" I'm satisfied with my answer. Let's say we compare Odate and any other western saw using expert woodworker. I say Odate would be at least as fast; and I'm not all that sure the westerner would be willing to even do it, such a slog.

For your second paragraph, I think you're just plain wrong and are most likely limiting everyone by your preferences, experiences, and the like. I agree that it's easier and cheaper to sharpen western saws; but hardly impossible for anyone to learn to sharpen Japanese saws.

Pam

[David Weaver]

We are not talking about experts, we are talking about competent hobbyists - how fast they can rip something, like a 4 foot board.

It doesn't matter how fast odate can rip a board when he's not in my shop to do it for me.

I'm not limiting anyone, just relaying actual experience. I'd be more than interested to hear anyone else who has given both types of saws a far shake in both softwoods and hardwoods, as I have. Be even more interested in an actual user to user comparison (i.e, a 3 foot piece of 8/4 cherry - you saw it, time it with video, send it to me, then I'll saw it, timed with video).

I have seen scads of opinions that are the same as mine after googling around on the forums. I can't find anyone competently ripping anything thick (with a japanese saw) on youtube, at least not at speed. It's hard to find the japanese videos because they are not in english and the search doesn't find them. I really am genuinely curious to find someone ripping 8/4 hardwood at speed on video so I can gauge whether or not it is similar to how long it takes me to rip something (i just did, in fact, do about 12 feet of ripping in 8/4 material last night).

[Steve Friedman]

I have one x-cut from Mike Wenzloff.

These are my first saws from Ed. I've now got an order with him for three x-cut saws.

My backed saws are from Adam Cherubini.

Once the x-cuts come in, my saw nest is complete (except for bowsaws).

Chuck

Really? I was going to ask if you had three crosscut saws to match the rip ones, but thought it would come across as too rude. So, can I come and play in your shop?

Chuck, if you don't mind, would you be willing to list the specs on the saws that you consider to constitute a "full nest." I realize that saw enthusiasts can never have enough saws and that the nest may depend on what you're working on, but I would love to see what someone who obviously cares deeply about his saws would consider to be a well-rounded "nest."

Thanks

Steve

[george wilson]

No doubt a person's body would have to be conditioned to work with Japanese tools. I could never pull a plane for long,though my muscles are used to pushing them. Odate is a life long user of his tools.

[Steve Friedman]

For large work like beams, an anabiki. I have a Mitsukawa 480 mm from Hida that cross cuts anything, hard or soft. I also have a huge maebiki that rips logs like you wouldn't believe, talk about using the weight of the saw, just hold on and move it from side to side and insert wedges as you go along. Not something I do often, but nice to know I can.

You can get saws intended for soft- or hardwoods, probably a good idea as the tooth configuration can be optimized; but usually it's just slower going if you don't.

Pam

Thanks Pam. The info was very helpful and the anabiki at Hida Tools looks interesting, But, two questions about the maebiki. First, is it actually possible to buy one in the U.S. and if so, it is really possible to saw a straight line with something that massive? On the other hand, I can certainly see why it would be aggressive.

Steve

[Wayne Morley]

I have never tried one, but Lynx claims to make a hand made saw with a tapered plate. They can be purchased at Woodcraft, and Traditional Woodworker. (http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Hand-Saws/products/117/)

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks Pam. The info was very helpful and the anabiki at Hida Tools looks interesting, But, two questions about the maebiki. First, is it actually possible to buy one in the U.S. and if so, it is really possible to saw a straight line with something that massive? On the other hand, I can certainly see why it would be aggressive.

Yes, keep an eye on the bay, one usually comes floating up. And yes, not that sawing a straight line is all that important when resawing raw logs. One of the best survey sites is the Takenaka Tool Museum (http://www.dougukan.jp/contents-en/modules/tinyd8/index.php?id=19). I've directed you to the saws page to start with. There's lots of very good information there.

Pam

[Chuck Nickerson]

Also waiting for pictures like Steve is! Ed's saws are very nice looking.

Interested in hearing what your thoughts are about using that one after you use it.

I used the 3 tpi this weekend on some 16/4 cherry stock (wooden rabbet planes in the offing).
Ed made the first couple inches 6 tpi, then 5, then 4. It cuts very nicely. My natural arn stroke
runs out of steam with about 3 or 4 inches of blade left to cut. I need to work on getting more
power in my stroke without twisting the blade and kinking the saw. That's just intelligent practice.

193578

[Eric Brown]

Here are my Medallion saws. Like them a lot. I have small hands so fit was important.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?131001-Saw-Gloat&highlight=

Eric

[David Weaver]

I used the 3 tpi this weekend on some 16/4 cherry stock (wooden rabbet planes in the offing).
Ed made the first couple inches 6 tpi, then 5, then 4. It cuts very nicely. My natural arn stroke
runs out of steam with about 3 or 4 inches of blade left to cut. I need to work on getting more
power in my stroke without twisting the blade and kinking the saw. That's just intelligent practice.

193578

Fabulous looking saws chuck!

[Kees Heiden]

I have never tried one, but Lynx claims to make a hand made saw with a tapered plate. They can be purchased at Woodcraft, and Traditional Woodworker. (http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Hand-Saws/products/117/)

Yes, why do yo hear so little about these? They have tapered blades come in the right size, are made in Sheffield, not expensive. What's so bad about them that they are never mentioned on the forums? Ok, they might need a good sharpening and the handles are rather blocky. Nothing that can't be mended?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yes, why do yo hear so little about these? They have tapered blades come in the right size, are made in Sheffield, not expensive. What's so bad about them that they are never mentioned on the forums? Ok, they might need a good sharpening and the handles are rather blocky. Nothing that can't be mended?

Are these made by the same company that makes the "Pax" brand saws?

[george wilson]

I don't know about Lynx saws,but some of the British saws are very soft steel,probably something like 1080 or less. Garlick certainly is a soft saw . In Wmsbg., before I became tool maker,they used to buy blades from Garlick and make handles for them. The blades were also incredibly coarsely ground. They used pit saws made by Garlick. I think Garlick as the only maker that was willing to make pit saws on custom order.

[Pedder Petersen]

Are these made by the same company that makes the "Pax" brand saws?

Yes:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/The_Lynx_Range.html

I don't know if they are full tapered.

Cheers
Pedder

[george wilson]

While Ido not really know the actual carbon content of the spring steel used in those saws,I can say that they filed like butter compared to the saws we made from 1095 spring steel @ 52 r.c.. The fine saws made by various small makers are all 1095. This includes LN saws,Wenzloff,and other makers of similar quality saws.

[Jonathan McCullough]

An analysis of the steel in a number of Disstons reveals that the amount of carbon ranged from .70 percent to .86 percent but nowhere near 1095, so it's not certain that that much carbon is really necessary for a good saw. I think the difference is how they were hardened and tempered, and in the case of the Lynx, even whether they are tempered.

[george wilson]

Spring steel is drawn to a blue color. The carbon content will affect the hardness for sure if they were drawn to blue. Even if a given lower carbon steel is drawn to a lower temperature so that it is as hard as a 1095 blade drawn to blue,it still will not have the abrasion resistance of the higher carbon steel,and will not stay sharp as long.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks for the information about the Pax/lynx/garlic saws. If the steel isn't good, there is indeed no reason to buy one of these and spend a lot of time to fettle them. Better to get a good vintage saw right away.

[Caspar Hauser]

I e-mailed Thomas Flinn & Co and was told that their saws are made from tempered and hardened CS 80 and are between 44 and 46 Rockwell.

[george wilson]

That's pretty soft compared to 52 r.c.. At least you won't nearly wear out a corner of a triangular file sharpening one of them,though.

[Ray Gardiner]

I'm pretty sure CS80 is equivalent to 1080, and CS95 is equivalent to 1095, 1095 is a much better choice for saws.

Here is a link to a shop made tapered plate full sized hand saw.
http://www.backsaw.net/index.php?option=com_jfusion&Itemid=58&jfile=showthread.php&t=149

Regards
Ray

[george wilson]

Ray,your link verifies that CS95 is .95 carbon. If the guy wanted a darker walnut handle,he should have oiled it before finishing it. A darker French polish will just chip away over time,and not look good.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Ray,your link verifies that CS95 is .95 carbon. If the guy wanted a darker walnut handle,he should have oiled it before finishing it. A darker French polish will just chip away over time,and not look good.

I was surprised by the maker's "french polishing" comment, about the last thing I'd think about doing to a tool handle.

Pam

[george wilson]

Well,the guy's not a pro. I noticed a rather large difference in the size teeth that his fly press was producing in the photo showing the close up of tooth punching. That doesn't seem too convenient. Without any way of indexing(spacing) the teeth along the saw,this could readily happen. Of course,he is working with what he has. A simple nail or some other simple stop to rest the last tooth cut would make tooth spacing perfectly uniform,without much time invested in tooling up. All in all,not a bad job of saw making,though.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi George,

There is an indexing stop on the right hand side, it has a slotted adjustment. There are two pictures, one picture shows the stop the other doesn't.
Not sure what you mean about the teeth being uneven, he does mention that he cut the teeth 5ppi at the toe, to 3.5 ppi at the heel, maybe that's what you are seeing.

Still, not a bad effort for a first saw, tapered blade and all..

Regards
Ray

[george wilson]

After the 15th. tooth from the front end,there is suddenly a larger tooth being cut,rather than a gradual increase in tooth size. Maybe he had to do it that way and file in the increments gradually??

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi George,

Yes, I see that... I thought that was the point that he changed from 5ppi to 3.5 ppi...

Regards
Ray

[george wilson]

Is the transition supposed to be abrupt or gradual? I haven't made a saw that way,or researched it,so I don't know what the norm is. If I did it,I'd think that gradual would be more sightly. I DID see an old thumbhole Disston that had graduated teeth. It started out at about 4 tpi.,and reached 2 tpi. at the handle end! It had huge,but very carefully filed out teeth. I didn't see the need for those monster teeth,myself.

[Pedder Petersen]

Yes:

http://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.uk/acatalog/The_Lynx_Range.html

I don't know if they are full tapered.

Cheers
Pedder

Hi, today there is a thread on an english forum wich linked to this picture:
195056

I can't see, how to full taper grind with this machine.

Cheers
Pedder

[george wilson]

Looks like a very long magnetic chuck with a grinding wheel or belt over it. The chuck usually runs back and forth under the wheel. If the wheel is presented to the magnetic chuck at a slight angle,it would taper grind a saw blade magnetically held down on it. Lots of coolant must be flushed over the blade,or it will instantly warp upwards into the wheel and get ruined. I've had that happen back in the 70's,when learning to use a magnetic chuck,but had no way to use messy coolant at the time.

[David Weaver]

An analysis of the steel in a number of Disstons reveals that the amount of carbon ranged from .70 percent to .86 percent but nowhere near 1095, so it's not certain that that much carbon is really necessary for a good saw. I think the difference is how they were hardened and tempered, and in the case of the Lynx, even whether they are tempered.

I kind of wonder what a hardened and spring tempered piece of 1095 would yield in the same type of test that those disstons were subjected to. They were tested after the fact, after they were hardened and tempered.

[george wilson]

Carbon steel,or any tool steel,can be tempered as hard,or as soft as you want it to be. Blue temper is standard,but it could be made any temper by special order. I think the small makers using 1095 steel today are making as fine a saw as any ever made,and probably better. When I was making 1095 Kenyon pattern crosscut and rip saws,the steel for each blade was costing me $22.00 for the blank metal alone. Granted,buying in more quantity will lower the price,but I do not think to the point that a commercial saw maker could afford to use it. As it was,for each thickness of spring steel I bought,I had to buy a $250.00 minimum,and pay a $75.00 cut off fee(the steel came in 1500# coils.) That $250.00 fee did not get me all that many feet of 12 1/2" wide .042 steel,either.

At a blue temper,I tested the hardness of the steel at 52 Rockwell C. However,a lower carbon steel drawn not as hot could be just as hard,or even harder. Of course,saws must not be made too hard,or they will not be fileable and will crack when kinked in a cut. Therefore,there are limits in hardness. With less carbon,though,and the same hardness,the inevitable outcome is that the steel will have less wear resistance,and not stay sharp as long.

You can't get something for nothing with steel(as in most other things.)

[Pedder Petersen]

Looks like a very long magnetic chuck with a grinding wheel or belt over it. The chuck usually runs back and forth under the wheel. If the wheel is presented to the magnetic chuck at a slight angle,it would taper grind a saw blade magnetically held down on it. Lots of coolant must be flushed over the blade,or it will instantly warp upwards into the wheel and get ruined. I've had that happen back in the 70's,when learning to use a magnetic chuck,but had no way to use messy coolant at the time.

Over there (I really would like to link there) Someone told me:

Six shaped and hardened sawplates are stuck to the magnetic chuck (the bed) of the table and ground flat to clean up the blued surface from the hardening process.

The bed traverses steadily from left to right and the 6" wide grinding wheel slowly moves in and out so that in one complete cycle of the machine the entire bed surface has been under the wheel.

The plates are then flipped over and carefully shimmed under the back edge before the cycle is repeated.

Result, fully tapered sawblades from the back to the teeth, if the tapering started part way up the blade it wouldn't provide any benefit.

So I was wrong obviuosly. Sorry for that.

Sheers Pedder

[Pedder Petersen]

When I was making 1095 Kenyon pattern crosscut and rip saws,the steel for each blade was costing me $22.00 for the blank metal alone.


We buy 1095 sheets for big enough for two full sized hand saws at a price of 28 € per sheet. Should be about 40$ + shipping and we would get it cheaper if we would buy bigger volumes. I don't think the difference in price determines the the alloy, but the hard 1095 eats files. This is what makes it expensive in massproductions.

Cheers Pedder

[Johnny Kleso]

Where Have all the Full Size Hand Saw Makers Gone?

That time in history has past my friend..
The days of building a house in the middle of no where without electricly is gone..
Hand ripping boards and using a hand plane to true them up is long gone in the house building trade..
The new method is to use a table saw and or saws all and you must have some kind of electric power on site..

I'm hoping George Wilson will soon be building full size saws.. Just as soon as I finish boxing up my Foley/Belsaw Re-toother and get it in the mail to him...

[David Weaver]

I'm hoping George Wilson will soon be building full size saws.. Just as soon as I finish boxing up my Foley/Belsaw Re-toother and get it in the mail to him...

Everyone start bugging George for saws!

[george wilson]

Don't everyone get your hopes up!! If I were to make saws,it is more likely that they would be back saws. However,I had to leave all the saw making devices at my old job. I have no devices to fold or press backs unless I make them all over again.

If I were to make crosscut type saws,I'd have to rig up means to taper grind them. We were not required to taper grind the 18th.C. saws for Wmsbg.,as you may know. Jay Gaynor said they were not tapered,or not tapered enough to worry about,and I followed his instructions. But,to satisfy modern users,they would have to be taper ground. Therefore,the easiest thing to tool up for would be back saws.

Before I can do anything,though,I'd have to get some drawings and ideas from David for really girly looking engraving to do on their backs.:)

At any rate,I am not at all sure that I want to get caught up in some rat race of keeping up with orders at my age.

[john brenton]

I think someone cornered the girly engraving market already...



Before I can do anything,though,I'd have to get some drawings and ideas from David for really girly looking engraving to do on their backs.:)
.

You wouldn't have to produce any serious amount of quantity. I think you could pull in a nice little sum just working at your own pace and posting the product here in the classifieds at your own price. Who here wouldn't want a bona fide "GW backsaw"?

[george wilson]

I was thinking something in the Barbie Doll range of ornament would be appropriate,as opposed to the lower grade school dull crayon class of work. Then,there is always the handle to consider.

[john brenton]

I don't know...it doesn't get much girlier than a little candy cane swirl on the tote. Maybe you could engrave a couple of cupcakes on the plate?


I was thinking something in the Barbie Doll range of ornament would be appropriate,as opposed to the lower grade school dull crayon class of work. Then,there is always the handle to consider.

[george wilson]

I think someone is going to get riled up if I keep kidding about this,so I'd best stop. Instead,I'll go the el macho manly route. Perhaps I could Parkerize the backs,and etch a camouflage design on the blades using the original blue,with silvery areas as the color scheme. Olive drab handles with blackened brass saw screws.

What would really happen if I made saws is that stingy guys like Weaver would start grumping about my prices,anyway.:)

[john brenton]

I sure as hell wouldn't buy one either...but I'd like to see one!

That "El Macho" saw actually sounds pretty cool.


I think someone is going to get riled up if I keep kidding about this,so I'd best stop. Instead,I'll go the el macho manly route. Perhaps I could Parkerize the backs,and etch a camouflage design on the blades using the original blue,with silvery areas as the color scheme. Olive drab handles with blackened brass saw screws.

What would really happen if I made saws is that stingy guys like Weaver would start grumping about my prices,anyway.:)

[David Weaver]

What would really happen if I made saws is that stingy guys like Weaver would start grumping about my prices,anyway.:)

You should've caught me before I spent all of my money on natural waterstones!

[David Weaver]

I want one with a pink hippo. A big 30 inch 3 tooth rip saw with a purple handle and a hippo engraving etched pink!

[george wilson]

IF I made saws,I would design my own work,and not just copy old stuff. My work would be in a 19th. C. style, like my bronze drill is,but not really a copy.

I probably have done more copying than most here,but I was paid to do it as Toolmaker. Not my favorite thing to do,though. There have been a few exceptions,like my Groves back saws. Not the rule,though. I wish I had made pictures of the hundreds of tools I made for collectors privately. They were not copies. And,I hate blackened brass!!

[george wilson]

David, if I saw my slate flagstone walkway into rectangular blocks,and grind them flat,will you buy one?????

I think I'll get back to work, making some 18th.C. thumb screws for a customer. Nice ones,with 2 tall wings on each one. I really can make more money doing something like that than I could making saws,though money isn't the issue with me, not yet,at least. I would just like to do what I want to do now that I'm retired from doing what everyone else wanted me to do.

[john brenton]

Why you don't make wood screws for bench vises? There is clearly a shortage and somewhat of a demand. I'd probably buy one.


David, if I saw my slate flagstone walkway into rectangular blocks,and grind them flat,will you buy one?????

I think I'll get back to work, making some 18th.C. thumb screws for a customer. Nice ones,with 2 tall wings on each one. I really can make more money doing something like that than I could making saws,though money isn't the issue with me, not yet,at least. I would just like to do what I want to do now that I'm retired from doing what everyone else wanted me to do.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, but you can't get away with engraving strawberry shortcake on one of those thumb screws.

As far as the flagstone tile goes, you know what every good PA german says. "The price has to be right!"

[george wilson]

I could do that for a while,John. I have a stock of maple 16/4. Beyond that,though,I had a bad time finding 4" maple when at the old job. . First thing I'd have to do is make a 2",3 tpi tap to thread the nuts with.

How much would a nice 2" maple bench screw with nut be sold for?

[john brenton]

The only manufacturer I've seen is "http://www.bigwoodvise.com/index.html", and there are no prices listed. Theirs are ash I believe, and I think it's somewhere in the $130 range. I, of course, would be hoping for one of the test models at a drastically reduced price.


I could do that for a while,John. I have a stock of maple 16/4. Beyond that,though,I had a bad time finding 4" maple when at the old job. . First thing I'd have to do is make a 2",3 tpi tap to thread the nuts with.

How much would a nice 2" maple bench screw with nut be sold for?

[george wilson]

When trying to get 4" thick hard maple some time ago,a lumber company that the maintenance millwork shop bought their hardwood from sent me a 6' piece of 4" X 4" maple. It had a 2" empty knot hole in the center,and one end had a large,ragged split 2' long. There was 2' of USABLE maple in the whole piece of wood. For this piece of junk they wanted $130.00. I told their delivery guy,who came weekly,to just take it back. I don't know how some people have the nerve to send out a piece of garbage like that,and expect the customer to pay full price for a 6' piece. AND,very high priced even if it was perfect.

David,my flagstones ARE natural,and when it is raining,they are waterstones.

[David Weaver]

Oh, I think I have a stone from japan that's about as soft as a flagstone. One of the ways you can tell a good japanese stone is "black mud". This stone, which was sold to me on ebay by someone who claimed to have paid $600 for it doesn't have the slightest hint of black in the swarf. It comes apart so fast that the swarf never differs from the color of the stone. Lesson learned on that one (at least the winning bid was only about 1/4th of what the guy said he paid). It does make an OK aoto, but I could've gotten an Iyo stone from a reputable dealer for the same price.

I probably would've been better off buying your flagstone!

[Pam Niedermayer]

George, if you decide to make some money, how about short how-to articles published electronically, say on the Kindle, for $3-5 each?

Pam

[David Weaver]

George, if you decide to make some money, how about short how-to articles published electronically, say on the Kindle, for $3-5 each?

Pam

Hopefully, he's not writing for ehow!!

[george wilson]

I am thinking that the only worthwhile saw to make would be a good dovetail saw. Why? It's the only thing everyone is always discussing,and I would make mine .015" thick,which is the only GOOD thickness to make one.

This should draw sufficient flame.:)

David,if it wasn't so much trouble,I'd have made you a flagstone water stone and sent it to you just to see how you liked it. Of course,I'd have made up some fancy name for it,too.

[David Weaver]

I have one or two that would cut at about the same speed. If it was any good, the frugal old timers would've used it.

Spent part of a summer working for a tile and floor guy when I was younger, and we had to put in a bunch of flagstone. Cut it with a diamond blade and a wet sponge for water- nasty nasty pasty dust.

[george wilson]

Roy Underhill made a trip to a place somewhere in North Carolina called Whetstone Creek ( or some similar name). He brought back some natural stones,I believe,but I never got a look at them. This was in the 70's or 80's.

[Niels Cosman]

I am thinking that the only worthwhile saw to make would be a good dovetail saw. Why? It's the only thing everyone is always discussing,and I would make mine .015" thick,which is the only GOOD thickness to make one.

This should draw sufficient flame.:)


Flame on! :D
Where can I sign up for one? A nice tenon saw or sash saw would also be the cat's pajamas;)

[Jonathan McCullough]

Niels, I know where you can get a saw plate punched with teeth. . . .

[george wilson]

Thing is,you can get a perfectly good old Disston back saw in the larger sizes. But,a good old dovetail saw .015" thick,like my old Groves,is very hard to find.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I could do that for a while,John. I have a stock of maple 16/4. Beyond that,though,I had a bad time finding 4" maple when at the old job. . First thing I'd have to do is make a 2",3 tpi tap to thread the nuts with.

How much would a nice 2" maple bench screw with nut be sold for?

http://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/ sells a 2 1/2" screw, 9 inches long, with a nut for $120, $185 with a handle, two knobs, o rings, and a brass garter.

Doesn't LN make a .015 dovetail saw now? I thought TFWW's dovetail saw was .015, but it's .018.

I'd love to try a thin plate saw like that.

[David Weaver]

LN makes one.

Mike W makes plates that thickness, don't know when he's going to get back to it, but I have a couple. One in a nurse DT saw and one going into another kit saw. don't really have any comment on how nice they are to use because I still cut dovetails mostly with a dozuki, and the plate is a tad thinner than .015.

[george wilson]

I know LN started making one that thin not long ago. I think they were afraid ham handed users would kink them and want free repairs for a while. Old ones are hard to find,though.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I know LN started making one that thin not long ago. I think they were afraid ham handed users would kink them and want free repairs for a while. Old ones are hard to find,though.

Makes me wonder what would happen if you gave a thin plate dovetail saw like that to the last guy who had this panel saw I picked up with a box of tools...

[george wilson]

I'd probably have to issue a statement with each saw that .015 is delicate,and for advanced users only,and not guarantee against kinking or breaking.

[Niels Cosman]

I'd probably have to issue a statement with each saw that .015 is delicate,and for advanced users only,and not guarantee against kinking or breaking.

"..For Mechanics, Not Botchers" :)