I miss my Matsumura chisels....Help me out, here folks....

[Kent A Bathurst]

I had a full set of the Matsumura blue steel chisels - 1/8" thru 2". A few months ago I decided to thin the herd for 2 reasons: (1) most of the wides never got much use, and (2) in the narrows, on rare occasions I had problems whacking/chopping with them because of the brittle edges. I decided I needed to fill in with some Western style [I also have the LN mortise chisel set, BTW}.

So, I sold half of them - in the narrrows, I kept the "sixteenths": 3, 5, 7, 9. I sold the "evens": 1/4", 3/8", 1/2". Replaced them with LN.

Here's what I figure is going on: (1) after 10+ years with the Mats', I had just gotten used to them - handle design, cutting action, sharpening; (2) I have not yet gotten "good enough" at sharpening the LN bench chisels. I can hone up the Mats on the WorkSharp with the leather hone wheel in maybe 15 seconds [thanks, John C !!]; I can't do that with the LN. The Mats are sharp-sharp - impressive, actually - and it is so quick to tune them up [the WS is clamped to the back bench immediately behind me at my primary workbench] that I do it frequently.

Here's where I need help: give me some tips on the LN. I have lapped + tuned them at the standard 25*. I have started experimenting on the honing wheel by giving them a slight tilt for a couple seconds at the end - micro-bevel-thing.

Is there something I need to do differently on sharpening them? Perhaps I just need to shut the heck up, and learn to use them like I did the Mats.

I realize that "gee, I have a learning problem with my LN chisels v. my Matsumura Blue" could and should elicit a reply of "poor guy - the horror, the horror :eek: - now, go away and don't bother us anymore". :D

TIA

Kent

[Tony Shea]

I initially had a similar issue with my LN A2 steel wider chisels. The 3/4" and 1" chisels I find somewhat difficult to sharpen as they seem extremely hard. Your Matsu's sharpened up easily due to the laminated blade and you only had a small amount of hard steel to hone. I have gotten used to sharpening my LN's with a little bit of help from a honing guide. Slightly more setup time involved but really nothing of too much significance. I don't use a worksharp or any power sharpening for that matter other than a grinder to re-establish bevels. I used to be in the free hand sharpening camp with no micro-bevels. But until recently I have putting micro-bevels on all my blades. It has been somewhat of a revelation. I make stop blocks up for every micro-bevel angle to get the same projection from the edge of the honing guide (a cheap side clamping style guide). When dealling with micro bevels I can go from my 1000 grit water stone and skip over to my 8000 grit finish stone in no time at all. My edges are not just unbeleivably sharp and stay that way with just a little touch up on some green honing compound. Another option is to hollow grind your bevels and freehand on stones. This method is also used in my shop on some chisels. Hope I made sense.

[Jon van der Linden]

Having used both Matsumura and Lie-Nielsen chisels, I'll second the fact that sharpening A2 takes a LOT longer. It's a much tougher steel. Initial sharpening is tedious, but after that it should make up for it by having a higher ratio of work to sharpening time. Still have to keep on top the of sharpening as you work though.

I tend to stay away from using the micro bevel concept because it prevents the use of strops.

[Jim Koepke]

It is understandable that different folks do things in different ways.

It is too late now. Maybe a lesson can be learned in this, having a bigger "herd" isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Some chisels are not made to get whacked. A few taps with a mallet may be best for some chisels. If something needs whacking, there are heavier chisels for that.

Some of my common chisel sizes may have a half a dozen siblings in the herd.

Some of the common sizes with a half dozen in the herd still have me looking for a few more.

jtk

[Leigh Betsch]

Sorry Kent, you ain't getting them back!:p
I started with the LN and Blue Spruce, now I'm tinkering with Japanese chisels (some of Kent's Matsumuras). It will be a while before I'm converted to the Japanese chisels, but it could happen.

[Terry Beadle]

The cryo A2 chisels are hard. ( period is big )

I have found my A2 edges do best, ( in terms of quickness of sharpening ) when the initial sharpening is done with a diamond DMT course. Then subsequent sharpening of either the primary or micro bevel ( if there is one ) can be quickly completed in the higher grits. I've also found the Chinese water stone makes quick work of the next polishing step on A2 due to it's hard grit. However, the Chinese water stone is a natural stone so it may be just my particular stone. I do follow up the Chinese stone with a King 8000 and optionally a Ice Bear 10,000 on a BS paring chisel.

While a primary of 25 degrees is good, IMO you should put a micro bevel of 30 ~ 35 on them for best results in most American hardwoods. SYP is a different matter and it depends on grain direction and quality of the wood.

I have lots of micro bevels and I use a green hone on all of them. I can see the idea of a single angle bevel on a chisel will make hone-ing more simple but in defense of the micro bevel world, it's a matter of learning to hone the micro bevel. In the case of my Japanese morticeing chisels, I do agree with Pam on a single bevel but thats because the single bevel is quite a bit above the 25 degree standard. Also the hardness of the Japanese blade makes morticeing a pleasure. A quick hone-ing and the Japan blade is ready to roll again.

All the above just re-enforces the old rule, Practice, Practice, Practice. The better you get at sharpening, no matter which methods you use, the results will improve if you pay attention to burr, grit marks, and steel reflection quality at each stage of the process.

That's my 2 cents but remember, 2 cents isn't what it used to be... hoot!

[David Weaver]

Don't have a worksharp, but understanding the concept, you're doing a lot of work to the face of the bevel on A2 chisels unless you leave the primary bevel coarse and just do a microbevel.

Like Terry says, they will hold up a lot better at 30 degrees final bevel. If you can do 25 (primary) and 30 (final microbevel) they should be as sharp as anything you have and you won't get stuck doing all of the abrasive work to polish a lot of moderately tough steel that is never going to cut wood, anyway.

The best solution, to me, is a ceramic stone for the final step, but any aluminum oxide stone will cut a small primary fine, and leave it very sharp. You have to go to a finer point with the A2 to not have to deal with the wire edge than with white or blue steel (by that, i mean that if you go fine enough, you don't have to pay attention to the wire edge at all). In my experience with A2, that is abrasives around a micron if you don't strop.

At some point, you may want to migrate to a cheap dry grinder for chisels so you can avoid the microbeveling entirely and keep a good hollow bevel on the face of your non-japanese chisels - it will limit the amount of work you have to do with finer stones, provide better results with the same level of stone fineness and save you a lot of time.

Ultimately, when you figure out what way you need to do the sharpening, it shouldn't take any longer to keep a good A2 chisel sharp than it takes to keep any chisel sharp.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Sorry Kent, you ain't getting them back!:p
I started with the LN and Blue Spruce, now I'm tinkering wthJapanese chisels.....

You're all heart, Leigh. ;) My point that might have gotten lost is that I'm doing the same in reverse..........gotta find the trail of breadcrumbs to get back out of the forest.


The cryo A2 chisels are hard. ( period is big ) .......While a primary of 25 degrees is good, IMO you should put a micro bevel of 30 ~ 35 on them for best results in most American hardwoods..... All the above just re-enforces the old rule, Practice, Practice, Practice. .......

Thnx, Terry - that's the place I'd kinda blundered into. It's the difference in hardness that I think I wasn't really grasping or prepared for, after a decade +. And - the micro bevel makes sense. I never did that on my Matsu - I like the 25* because of what it does for them in "paring" mode. And - in deference to Jim K - "whack" was a bit facetious on my part - a tap moving to a solid rap was the most. I want to be able to take a harder hit when needed, but when the mortise chisels wouldn't work well. Which is why I opened up only some of the slots in the dimension range to interleave some LN in between - the funding had to come from somewhere, ya know? EDIT: For, example, from Leigh....:D :D


Like Terry says, they will hold up a lot better at 30 degrees final bevel. If you can do 25 (primary) and 30 (final microbevel) they should be as sharp as anything you have and you won't get stuck doing all of the abrasive work to polish a lot of moderately tough steel that is never going to cut wood, anyway.....go to a finer point with the A2 to not have to deal with the wire edge than with white or blue steel.....when you figure out what way you need to do the sharpening, it shouldn't take any longer to keep a good A2 chisel sharp than it takes to keep any chisel sharp.

Thnx, David - you're targeting the correct issue. I need to figure it out.



Basically, I've learned (1) A2 is a lot harder than I'm used to with the matsu - which I guess I "knew" but hadn't sufficiently grasped - and has to be dealt with accordingly; (2) micro bevel; (3) practice - which is what I did with my first chisels as well.

Thanks all,
Regards
Kent

[Dave Beauchesne]

Kent:

I wasn't very competent freehand honing until I started using a hollow grind ( courtesy a hand crank c/w with a 3M white stone of 80 grit ) on both my LN chisels and various plane blades. I can whip over to the sharpening stones ( Shapton glass in this case ) and, without a jig, or micro bevel, touch things up in a hurry.

Just my experience - - - good luck - BTW, the other replies all have lots of merit.

Dave Beauchesne

[Jon van der Linden]

What Dave brings up here reminded me of how little time I actually spend sharpening the A2 once they're set up. Because there's no micro bevel and I don't use a jig, I don't have to fiddle around to figure out where things really are. I usually only use a few passes on my finest stone or maybe up to 3 passes on a strop because I never let it get away from being sharp. 30 seconds at most including drying my hands.

The more significant maintenance grinds are of course a bit longer, but it doesn't take much.