Expensive or Cheap

[Mark L Tucker]

Hi.

I started woodworking a few months ago and need some new tools, but I'm wondering whether, at this stage, to buy a few cheaper tools to get up and running, or do you think it's a better idea to go for something a bit more expensive and usually of higher quality.

I know if I buy cheaper tools I'll probably need to replace them, which would be the time I would go for a higher quality tool. But would it be a better idea to buy the more expensive tools, which should, in theory, last me a lifetime?

I know that say a Lie Nielsen chisel is a lot higher quality than one from a local DIY store, but with things like saws, does it really make a difference if I spend £150 or £30?

Along the same vein, if I did go the cheaper route, would antique tools be a better option than a cheap new tool?

Any help would be very appreciated.

Thanks.

[Prashun Patel]

This is a good question with no easy answer.

You have to do yr research PER TOOL. In general, I find you get what you pay for. However, there are a number of areas where you can find quality lower/moderate priced tools.

This forum is a great resource for research and (usually unbiased) testimonial that has informed most of my purchases in the past 3 years. If you can't find the answer through search, post a particular question, and you'll get what you need.

Since you mentioned chisels and saws, here's my advice:

Chisels: A good 'starter' set might be the Narex brand. I have a set, and they've performed very well for a great price.

Saws: There is a big difference between brands and types of saws. What kind of work are you looking to do? In general, I'm one to buy cheap with the 'roughing' saws used for general carpentry and bring rough lumber down to size. But detail work like dovetailing is IMHO easiest with a quality saw.

Last, I humbly submit that your taste and appreciation for tools will evolve as you acquire them. So, I advise you to acquire them one at a time, as your projects demand. This will avoid spending on things you think you might need.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Good quality new tools like Lie-Nielsen planes appear to maintain their value in most markets, so even if you decide down the road that you no longer want or need them, you can get most of what you paid into them. Since you're pricing things in quid, I'm guessing you're in the UK. I'm not as familiar with the prices for used tools there, but the market is large and well developed, with lots of boot sales and dealers. There appear to be quite a few very nice British-made back saws, chisels, Record- and Stanley- planes. For new chisels you may also want to look into Ashley Iles--I have them and I'm not sure you could do better for quality or price, and since they're domestic they'd probably be cheaper for you than for me. They're available in the UK from Matthew at Workshop Heaven. Check out Alice Frampton's website "Cornish Workshop" and blog "Musings from the Workbench." I'll bet she'd steer you in the right direction.

[Zach England]

It's good there is a thread about this, since it has never been addressed before.

[Zach England]

Was that snarky? My bad.

[mickey cassiba]

How's it go? Buy quality, cry once, buy cheap, cry always...or something like that. That's my philosophy anyway. I've been tempted several times, to get a 'starter version" but, either my friends or good old common sense has kept the wallet in the pocket.
That's my two cents, and they're stayin' in my pocket, 'til I find something worth spending them on.

[john brenton]

There are good reasons to go with quality new tools, or quality antique tools in need of a little TLC...but there is not a single reason to go with a cheap new tool. It is still amazes me to see how worthless new crummy tools are. I don't know how they get away with it, or why. It's like they don't care how bad their reputation gets, or how unsatisfied the customer is with the product, as long as they sell it. Buck Brothers is great example...they once made really fine tools. I mean, with a little care in manufacturing their cheap-o planes and chisels at Home Depot could be worth it. But they're not.

I'm a many hobbied guy, and I remember when I first started playing with wood I was careful not to load up on tools for a hobby that I might not even like (but you have to have the tools before you know if you like it or not...sneaky.) I did all older tools, with a few misses, but mostly hits. It is true that the LN and LV tools don't lose much value, but they don't generally go UP in value, whereas a rehabbed tool can. You can by a lot of three planes, fix one up and sell it for the price you paid for all three. That's how I built my arsenal, and every once and a while I'll upgrade. If I see a nice tool for a steal on ebay, I'll buy it and sell the tool I currently own for the same price as the one I just bought.

The last time I did that was a while ago, but it was a never used Ulmia 24" jointer that went for $60 (retails for $240). I bought it, then put one of my other two jointers up and sold it for $60. It was of much less value, in fairly beat up condition...I had paid $40. It takes patience and lots of watching, but it's fun. It's the "hybrid" hobby of woodworking/tool fawning.

One might say that it's stupid to do that, and it's better just to buy the top of the line ONCE and be done with it, but (a) not all of us have hundreds of dollars to spend on tools, and (b) learning to rehab is a valuable skill. If I had to do it all over again, I don't think I'd spring for the "premium" tools.

[john brenton]

I'm hoping that someone brings up the topics of sharpening, wood vs. metal planes, or which tools are absolutely "essential".


It's good there is a thread about this, since it has never been addressed before.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Aside from the economics of buying good tools, which is significant, is the fact you're a beginner and probably have no idea how a good tool works. The few LN and LV tools I've bought (when I buy new I usually buy Japanese stuff) worked right out of the box. That's of great value.

Pam

[Sean Hughto]

I recommend approaching it like this. Think of the first couple of projects you hope to make. Set about acquiring the best tools you can afford to accomplish those projects. If you can afford Lie-Nielsen, great. If you can't, vintage tools are plentiful and very inexpensive for high quality users (as opposed to collectibles). Rinse and repeat.

[Andy Mail]

I spent a lot of time some years back researching planes on the internet looking for the best bang for the buck (pound?). I ended up buying a wood jointer from Steve Knight, and couldn't have been happier. I am a real fan of wood planes, and would recommend you consider them.

Steve now sells kits, two of which I'm currently building. Another really good option is to build your own. David Finck has a really well done book about building Krenov style hand planes. You build the wood body and buy the iron and chip breaker online. It's a good project, and you end up with a nice tool.

Finally, wood planes aren't uncommon in the wild. You can easily find a used one and tune it up.

[Sean Hughto]

I really like Steve's planes too. I was just using a roughing plane he made for me a bunch this weekend. It was one of the last he built. He put a vera (argentine lignum) sole on it at my request. It is a great plane. I sold my jointer in part because I so enjoy using this plane to true a face before sending it through the thicknesser.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5186/5659356329_69bb182e87_z.jpg

[Johnny Kleso]

I thought at one time quality was the way to go but I no longer think that..

I have several China made machines and they work just fine for as much as I use them..

I only own a two Lie-Nielson planes and see little advantage in buying a $500 jointer plane vs a $150 Stanley.. If you have the money yeah sure spend it,I'd buy Holtey's.. Unless you make money because you enjoy counting it :)

IMHO its far better to have any tool to use than to be saving to buy an expensive one when you need it..

Better to drive nails with a rock and be saving for a $100 hammer or be using a Dollar Store Hammer?

[Andy Mail]

I couldn't disagree more. Quality tools make the process enjoyable. Lousy tools are beyond frustrating. A iron or sole that isn't flat, chisels that dull easily, saws that don't cut well are all reasons for a beginning woodworker to decide this isn't for him.

Now, if we're talking about expensive versus inexpensive, I can agree to a point. I've seen some Chinese tools that work well. I love my Knight Toolworks jointer, and that wasn't expensive. Quality doesn't necessarily mean expensive, but I will always reach for quality.

[Chris Griggs]

It really depends on the type of the tool and the specific maker of the "less expensive" tool. Most of the time when I've skimped I've regretted it, but then again, there are times when a cheap tool is better then no tool at all. For example, a couple years ago I bought a 6 piece set of Woodriver chisels, that were on sale for like $40. The steel doesn't hold an edge as long as a better chisel, but they are pretty decent users and didn't require much prep. Certainly better than having no chisel. Also, they were cheap enough that I didn't regret purchasing them even though I started to "outgrow" them in less then a year. Can never have too many chisels....

On the other hand when I bought a router (the tailed kind, which I now barley use), I purchased a Hitachi instead of Bosch to save about $50 and while the Hitachi is a decent tool, I've always regretted not spending the extra money on the better tool.

I think where you really need to be careful is "mid-range" tools. There are some that give you a lot of bang for your buck, but others that are fairly pricey in there own right, but not a lot better than cheap tools.

My advice, make a list of the types of tools you want/need. Look at the different options out there for each tool, and then ask about the specific tools. It can REALLY depend. I will add, if you can afford all premium tools right off the bat, than by all means by the best the first time, you won't regret it. If you can't afford all or any premium tools, than really do your homework, and prioritize (there's no need to spend $200-$300 on a jack plane that will be used for rough work, save that money for a finish smoother)

[Johnny Kleso]

I worked for Keystone Camera and the president always was correcting me " We sell inexpensive cameras not cheap"
I assume your taking about inexpensive tools not junk even though the junk I bet is better than nothing at all..

I have dozens of HF clamps in smaller sizes and a dozen or more Bessy clamps... The HF clamps work just fine for me but dont have near the clamping pressure as the Bessy's but for what I use them they work just fine.. Some day if Bessy has another huge sale where there clamps are 50% off I might replace the HF clamps but till then they work just fine..

Hand Planes are maybe the only tool you want a high quality or at least a high quality blade..

For sharpening IMHO everyone should own a bench grinder, even if its a low budget unit.. That and two bench stones and you can sharpen most annything..

[Andrew Yang]

Coincidentally Schwarz's latest book addresses this topic in part. Despite the title implying it's about a tool chest a guerrilla fighter might consider building. The preview chapter posted on the blog (http://lostartpress.wordpress.com/) gives a good overview of his philosophy on things.

Buy quality tools once but keep the list of tools short (ish).

http://www.lostartpress.com/images/productimages/Books/atc_cover_250.jpg (http://www.lostartpress.com/product/a1aeb796-1199-45c3-b9ca-99acd1d22b1a.aspx)

[Derek Gilmer]

I'm in a similiar boat, only a year or so down the road. Here are the conclusions I came to.

Planes- buy used good planes that are relatively tuned up from trusted people. Not as cheap as big box stores but at least half of LN/LV prices
Saws - LV dovetail saw = great value. Other panel and tenon saws I"m picking up used older disston/atkins (good saws) and learning to sharpen them.
Chisels - LV chisels are great I bought an assortment of sizes I needed new and think they are well worth it. Looking at the Narex chisels for mortise work.

In general older tools are going to be better and possibly cheaper than what you find in Lowes/HD/Rockler/Woodcraft bargain price ranges.

[john brenton]

Mark,

I think that as long as you're making stuff it doesn't matter. It's too easy to get into the tool buying hobby..and it's kind of a pathetic realization to see that you're only buying tools and not making anything with them. If you have the money I say go for the gold and never worry about it again...but damn that's a lot of money.

Here's my little cabinet. It isn't anywhere near ALL my tools, just the ones I wanted to protect but still use everyday. I am 100% satisfied. I don't fawn over tools anymore, I fawn over lumber. If I need a tool I buy it, but I'm not dissatisfied at all, and if I were to look at the net cost after buying and selling I've definitely won. I've spent none of my income on buying tools, just buying and selling on the side to have what I want. In fact, I actually love my tools. I love all those little tools in there.

At the same time, if that cabinet were to fall off the wall and every tool be chipped it would barely even ruin my day. I brought them back to life and I can do it again....but if even one lie-nielson plane fell off the wall I'd be crushed for a week.



Hi.
I started woodworking a few months ago and need some new tools, but I'm wondering whether, at this stage, to buy a few cheaper tools to get up and running, or do you think it's a better idea to go for something a bit more expensive and usually of higher quality.
Thanks.

[John Coloccia]

My opinion, worth exactly what you paid for it (less if you contribute):

The better you are at woodworking and fixing tools, the easier it is to work with cheap tools. It's like playing an instrument. Back when I was first learning to play guitar, the difference in my playing between a well setup guitar and a junky guitar was rather dramatic. Now, I can pick up pretty much anything and make it sound good, and come back later and say "Boy, that was difficult to play"....no one would ever be the wiser. When you get to the point that you're pretty good and you feel like you "deserve" the better tools is right about when you get to the point that you find yourself making due with what you have and getting pretty good results regardless. It kind of works backwards, in my opinion.

I always tell people to buy at least one good example of each tool so that you at least know what you're shooting for. Then you have a baseline so that you know what to look for in cheaper tools, AND you know what to look for as you're tuning them up. Personally, I tend towards higher end tools just because I really hate tuning up my tools. I just want to work.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi.

I started woodworking a few months ago and need some new tools, but I'm wondering whether, at this stage, to buy a few cheaper tools to get up and running, or do you think it's a better idea to go for something a bit more expensive and usually of higher quality.

I know if I buy cheaper tools I'll probably need to replace them, which would be the time I would go for a higher quality tool. But would it be a better idea to buy the more expensive tools, which should, in theory, last me a lifetime?

I know that say a Lie Nielsen chisel is a lot higher quality than one from a local DIY store, but with things like saws, does it really make a difference if I spend £150 or £30?

Along the same vein, if I did go the cheaper route, would antique tools be a better option than a cheap new tool?

Any help would be very appreciated.

Thanks.

Mark,

Welcome to the Creek and the slippery slope of tool acquisition.

Your profile does not show your location. As some one else noticed, there are some clues that lead me to guess the United Kingdom.

You may find some quality used tools at www.oldtools.co.uk/

I have come across many other purveyors of fine tools in the UK, but often do not save the information since the shipping makes most of the items cost prohibitive for me.

The latest Fine WoodWorking has an evaluation on hand planes that may be of interest to you or anyone wanting to learn a bit more about hand planes.

There are many theories on tool purchasing and most of them have valid reasoning behind them. Many are also based on personal opinions that have been formed from experience and different work needs and styles.

In my situation, the needs and styles are different from others in some cases.

All but a few of my tools were acquired as used. Many of the tools that can be found on the shelf of the average DIY store today are not near the quality of those made in the early 20th century.

Since some of my work is done out in the rain, there is a different set of tools that can be used in that environment. You can bet they are not the highest quality that money can buy. They are of good quality because I want something that will get me out of the rain quickly.

I have very few qualms about having more than one of the same tool. Though there are some limits to that. Anything that is excess is being saved to be sold the next time a chunk of money is needed for another purchase.

One tool I would suggest for any one who wants to be a woodworker is a lathe. Even a small one if for nothing else than to make handles for your tools. An alternative is to make your own treadle lathe for this kind of work.

Some folks like to not have more tools cluttering their shop than is needed to do the work at hand.

On the other end of the spectrum there are those like me who feel there is always a place for one more tool.

I even buy some junk tools in case one of my neighbors wants to borrow one. I have a couple of old chisels and planes that if they came back broken in half it would not bother me a bit. My better chisels and planes do not get loaned.

On another aspect of this, my only new hand tool purchases were some chisels when first starting in woodworking and recently some items from Lie-Nielsen that were easier to buy than searching the used market.

There was a lot of what John Brenton suggests in that. I fixed up a lot of rust hunt finds and sold them to earn the money to buy the tools from Lie-Nielsen.

If you are interested in what may be thought of as the minimalist approach to tools, then going with quality from the start and paying a bit extra may be the best approach.

What is important in taking this path is to try and handle the tools before you purchase. The feel of a tool in your hand can make a lot of difference in the enjoyment of using the tool. The more your tool feels a part of you the more you will accomplish and the more you will enjoy accomplishing you work.

If you are in the camp with others like me, then pay attention to what you buy and know that even a tool that turns out to be less than stellar can still have a purpose. Even if that purpose turns out to be an education in what not to buy.

You can do a lot yourself in learning to tune up old discarded tools. Sharpening the blades of planes, chisels and saws is fundamental in making woodworking enjoyable. The knowledge gained in fixing old tools is helpful when something is not working.

So, without giving you a direct answer, my hope is that you have some food for thought to help you make your decision.

jtk

[Mark L Tucker]

This is great - thanks to everyone that contributed. I've got a lot of food for thought and it all seems like sound advice.

Thanks again.

[Jim Matthews]

An alternative, take a shop course from a school that can supply tools for your use.
Make a list of each tool used. Keep the list through the week, and put a tick mark next to each one as it is used.

That should help you determine utility, versus your desire for something as an object.

If you want to make sawdust, every minute spent fixing a tool is subtracted from shop time.