A modest proposal (long)

[Marc Hills]

It is with some trepidation that I submit for discussion the following proposal:

What if we as a community of hand tool collectors and users put together some sort of informal agreement to cooperate amongst ourselves in eBay auctions to benefit members seeking specific items under a very limited set of pressing circumstances?

This thought occurred to me this evening as I was working in my shop and reflected how unfortunate it is that I don't have a 1/8" bench chisel of any kind. The more dovetails I do the more I realize how useful one would be for cleaning out the waste.

The market for used chisels on eBay is at the moment, how should I put this? Heated. Yes, Heated. There seems to be quite a bit of demand for vintage chisels right here among our membership that is certainly contributing to higher prices.

Consider someone else's potential need: a forum member who needs but one size chisel to complete his collection of Stanley 750s. Or October finds a another SMC regular in need urgent need of a router plane to finish that special gift in time for the holidays. What about Bob's current need to obtain a Stanley 94? You get the picture.

Now the forum membership of SMC in no way constitutes anywhere near the total eBay market for neander tools. So even if such a system existed it wouldn't guarantee anyone success in winning a particular auction. But I think it goes without saying that many of us have, at one time or another, knowingly or unknowingly bid against each other, and will certainly continue to do so in the future. We do have this forum as a means of rather immediate communication. And I'd also like to point out that because of SMC, in a fashion we all know and respect each other.

I prefaced this post with the words "with some trepidation" because I'm not sure that such an arrangement could work, is wanted, needed or even if it could, that it would necessarily be a good idea.

In fact, I'm not even sure that *I* would want such a system. But it struck me as an interesting idea.

I do have some thoughts about how such a system might work, but rather than make this post any longer, I'll just put it out there.

[Mark Singer]

Marc,

I used to buy some stuff on Ebay....it seems out of control now.! Beat up Stanley chisels go for more than new Lie Neilsens...Festool items from pawn shops with no waranty bring full price....it is a futil excercise! Decide what you need or want and just buy it ....you will be ahead and not have somebody else's junk or their problem....how much rust do you really want to remove? Your time is valuable...you were only given so much....spend it doing what you like to do.

IMHO...just some thoughts...:o

[Tom LaRussa]

... I don't have a 1/8" bench chisel of any kind.
Funny you should mention that. I don't have a 1/8" bench chisel of any kind either.



The market for used chisels on eBay is at the moment, how should I put this? Heated. Yes, Heated. There seems to be quite a bit of demand for vintage chisels right here among our membership that is certainly contributing to higher prices.
HEY!

Why's everybody looking at me? :eek:

I'm only buying orphans -- no handles, broken handles, heavy rust, stuff like that.

And besides, I'm too cheap to raise prices, even if I had the money. :p



Consider someone else's potential need: a forum member who needs but one size chisel to complete his collection of Stanley 750s.
I've got one maybe two of those, but they've got no handles at the moment. :o



I do have some thoughts about how such a system might work, but rather than make this post any longer, I'll just put it out there.
Okay, so what are your thoughts?

[Tom LaRussa]

how much rust do you really want to remove?
As much as possible. :o



Your time is valuable...you were only given so much....spend it doing what you like to do.
Okay. But, um, I kinda like derusting old tools.

HE WHO DE-RUSTS THE MOST TOOLS, WINS! :p

[Roy Wall]

I think ebay is infested with scammers..............

Planes and chisels 75 years old, beat up, and going for ridiculous prices.......sellers have a few buddies on the prowl for their items --keeping the prices up, up, and away.............................

[Mark Singer]

Tom...your in the lead and I definitly can't catch up....Its between you and .....what is his name with the chisels and plane and the '56 DeSoto?
As much as possible. :o



Okay. But, um, I kinda like derusting old tools.

HE WHO DE-RUSTS THE MOST TOOLS, WINS! :p

[Bart Leetch]

I wouldn't touch E-bay with a 10' pole. :D I've done enough reading about them to cure me of using them before I even get started :eek:

[Tom McMahon]

Hello, I have been lurking on this site for several days now. When I saw this thread I had to join and post a reply. I hate to be disagreable in my first post but I must. I have been buying on, and following ebay for several years now. It has been my expeience that in some cases prices have actually come down over time. 5 years ago a stanley #1 woujd bring $2000 plus today they regularly sell for under $1000. A stanley #2c would bring $500 plus today under $300. I believe what has happened is that people have found out how many of these tool there really are. They used to be scarce but since ebay you can buy one allmost every day. On the other hand the more common tools seem to be up a little bit. Maybe there is an increase in demand.

[Bob Hovde]

Hello, I have been lurking on this site for several days now. When I saw this thread I had to join and post a reply. I hate to be disagreable in my first post but I must. I have been buying on, and following ebay for several years now. It has been my expeience that in some cases prices have actually come down over time. 5 years ago a stanley #1 woujd bring $2000 plus today they regularly sell for under $1000. A stanley #2c would bring $500 plus today under $300. I believe what has happened is that people have found out how many of these tool there really are. They used to be scarce but since ebay you can buy one allmost every day. On the other hand the more common tools seem to be up a little bit. Maybe there is an increase in demand.

Welcome to the Creek! What part of the World do you live in? I think you're probably right about why the prices have moved up (and down). However, I also think some of the increase in common tools is due to the "Beany Baby" factor. A cheap chisel that's old is just an old, cheap chisel.

Bob

[jay hanks]

I dont buy all the time from Ebay but I watch stuff a lot. For the most part there are no bargin bin prices out there, sometimes you can win big on an item but it comes down to supply and demand. People out there really want old chisels so the prices go up. As for us doing some kind of co op to help other's here it is a nice idea but because soo many poeple use Ebay I think it is a moot point.
A better idea would be for people to list the items they really want and maybe somebody has the item collecting dust and is willing to sell. Or maybe for those that are able to get to the Flea's or garage sales more get a list and prices and have them look for you while there. That is still dicey because someone has to be willing to put the time and effort into looking for stuff for other people. Just my2 cents there.

[Keith Christopher]

Marc,

I used to buy some stuff on Ebay....it seems out of control now.! Beat up Stanley chisels go for more than new Lie Neilsens...Festool items from pawn shops with no waranty bring full price....it is a futil excercise! Decide what you need or want and just buy it ....you will be ahead and not have somebody else's junk or their problem....how much rust do you really want to remove? Your time is valuable...you were only given so much....spend it doing what you like to do.

IMHO...just some thoughts...:oI have to agree with Mark here. EBAY although working well in my portfolio, gets none of my business as most of the people are EBAY SELLERS and not AUCTIONEERS ! The whole auction thing is out of hand, used to be you would get GREAT deals at auction and not pay retail, but these days it's all about retail on EBAY. Go buy new and keep your warranty. I bought an 1/8" two cherries bench chisel for 20.00 online NEW. Actually it was in mm but it's almost 1/8". :)


Keith

[Mark Singer]

Just an example....a current set of Japanese Chisels is currently going for $158 on Ebay with about 10 hours to go. It will be interesting to see what it closes at...they usually close high because there is a bidding frenzy at the end and every one wants to win. This set is identical to a set that is sold by Grizzly for $129! Every size matches and the pics match as well....The last set like this on Ebay went for over $300! I will not include the link, but you can track it...For that much money you can get a really great set from Tools For Woodworking or Japan Woodworker.....Our friends on SMC are really our best source of good prices and specials. Thanks to one of you I just bought the Beismeyer Splitter for a great price! and there was the recent post on the WWII for $89....I have trust in my fellow SMC members...not people buying things and making 2times their value by not revealing their sources.



http://i16.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/4e/94/7f_0.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4353758812&indexURL=0#ebayphotohosting) Does this look familiar? This pic was from the Ebay listing...now check the Grizzly pic! BTW the seller has 100% positive feedback! I wonder what the lesser guys are doing?

I think we need to be informed and help each other.

[Dave Anderson NH]

While I personally don't use ebay, I have many friends who do. With 3 tool auctions in NH each year and several others in MA and RI, there is no need for me to buy without being able to put my mitts on them and do a thorough examination.

I would object to the type of arrangement you propose Marc for a couple of reasons.

First and foremost, it would place Sawmill Creek in a potentially awkward and dangerous position and open up the possibility of lawsuits. What you are suggesting is in most states illegal and considered both a restraint of trade and an attempt to defraud sellers. I realize that this goes both ways, with sellers having friends shill for them, but we can not be involved in any way with this type of suggestion.

Second and to me just as important, this is a morally indefensible position and constitutes collusion.

The creek can not, and will not, allow the boards to be used in this manner.

I realize you were just throwing up a trial balloon, but I'm afraid it's one I must puncture and shoot down.

I won't delete this thread because I think it is both useful in a backhanded sort of way and because I realize you floated your idea without any malice.

Best regards to all,
Dave Anderson NH

[Wendell Wilkerson]

I have to disagree with most of the sentiments about Ebay that have been posted so far. I have fairly good luck getting what I want from Ebay. I don't get spectacular deals like a NIB set of Stanley chisels for $5, but I don't expect to either. I don't have time in my life to go search flea markets or garage sales for the ultimate bargain (never mind that I live in OLD TOOL HELL), so I am content to pay a bit of a premium to have someone else do the leg work. Maybe my Ebay habits are just different. I tend to look for items that really don't have a good modern maker equivalent like molding planes, plough planes, braces, etc. For example, I just recently bought a Record 043 plough plane from a guy in England for about $60. Not a terribly gloatable price but it was $30 less than I could find from a dealer in England. I think certain items go hot and cold also. Personally, I blame this on Bob Smasler :) Every time he write an article on rehabbing some old tool, the prices for that item go nuts, just look how chisels are going after he has shown everyone how to rehab them. Definitely a correlation there :D Overall, I think you have to be patient and disciplined to make Ebay work.

By the way Marc, I know you intend this thread to something other than a philosphical debate about Ebay. I think you're original idea is noble, but I am a bit skeptical about how it would work. I think a wanted-to-buy list is probably more practical.

Wendell

[Mark Singer]

Dave is 100% correct...we should not put SMC in such a position!

In contrast to my last post , I agree with Wendell, it is still a good place to buy many things.....just know what your getting and the retail price and check the sellers feedback...

[Tom Saurer]

Ebay, like auctions, is buyer beware. I've seen people spending an amazing amount of money on something and next to it is something going for an absolute steal. My wife has gotten some very good bargains on ebay. One time after she was using an object, she resold it for a higher price then what she paid for it. I've also seen people get taken at auctions.

It all comes down to how educated the buyer is, how many people are trying to purchase an item, and how desperate someone is.

[Mike Keating]

Have to admit, when I read the title of the thread I thought we had a long distant Jonathan Swift relative in the creek :eek:. E-bay is buyer beware and I refuse to get caught up in the hoop-la. I buy some old planes on there for collecting sake, but I bid once and that is it. If get out-bid, they paid too-much and the seller is very happy. This way I do not get caught up in the frantic bidding. I just get the e-mails if I won or not.
I know what the items I bid on are worth and make fair offers based on that. If someone outbids me, good for them they just made a more expensive mistake.

[Marc Hills]

Fair enough, Dave. I hadn't thought about the legal ramifications of this idea. The last thing I would want to do is endanger this good thing we have going called Saw Mill Creek.

[Marc Hills]

PS: Michael Keating wins a valuable prize for correctly identifying that obscure literary allusion (you'll agree, Mike, my idea isn't nearly as bad as Mr. Swift's). The prize? Why, my profound admiration, of course! :)

[Derek Cohen]

Just my 2 cents, Marc. But what you suggest is essentially price fixing, which is illegal. While I agree that prices on eBay are often inexplicably high for common items, and that the competition for desireable items is increasing all the time, the market sets the value.

In my experience, prices wax and wane. There may be seasonal highs and lows. Perhaps public holidays and traditional vacation times may reduce the competition? Some tools come into favour and others fall out of favour. Learn to recognise the trend. Sometimes you just have to be patient, or accept paying the premium.

I have bought many tools on eBay. Either I have been lucky, or I am prepared to pay more than others. On many occasions I have not paid anything near my limit and have come away very satisfied with a bargain price. On the other hand, others may view the price I paid differently. It may not be quite the bargain for them. I live in Old Tool Hell, so eBay is important to me. I have to weigh this fact up when I balance my desire for a tool with the price I am willing to lay out for it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Zahid Naqvi]

Marc, when I read your original thread it sounded like a great idea to me. But then I read the reply of Dave, that makes a lot of sense too.

I have had good luck with ebay so far, as I am after users and not collectibles. We the inhabitants of the southern states don't have access to tool auctions like people in the New England region do, heck we don't even have a decent WW store in Arkansas. For us on-line is the only way.

Perhaps a more practical (read legal) option could be to post a messages stating what you are looking for and perhaps someone can point you to a good source which meets your price/quality needs. Such as the message posted by Marc about chisels.

[Shawn Swafford]

Ebay is a pretty good deal for me. Ever tried buying good used tools in Kansas? It can't be done. If it doesn't come from Lowes or Home Depot you can't get it and I have to drive 70 miles just to get there. If things sell on Ebay for high $ there is nothing wrong with that as long as the product isn't misrepresented. Things sell for too much money at regular auctions also. Know what you are buying and bid accordingly.

[Dave Anderson NH]

To Marc and any of the others of you who live within driving distance of southern NH. I would invite you to mark your calendars with the following list of dates.

Friday April 9
Saturday April 10 Nashua, NH

Friday July 8
Saturday July 9 Hillsboro, NH

Friday September 9
Saturday September 10 Nashua, NH

These are tha dates of the MJD Tools Live Free or Die (LFOD) tool auctions and the accompanying flea markets for 2005. Usually there are at least 1000 lots of tools up for auction each day in April and September and a smaller number like 4-500 or so each day in July. THe July event offers free camping at the auction site and is a great time.

Surely that Mark Stutz fella will find an absolute need to visit his son at college during one of the time periods listed above. After all, it's just showing a fatherly interest in his welfare.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Sure Dave rub salt in the wound!!! I wonder if I can convince my wife that New Hampshire is within driving distance to Texas. NOT likely!

Wendell

[Roger Nixon]

Ebay is a pretty good deal for me. Ever tried buying good used tools in Kansas? It can't be done. If it doesn't come from Lowes or Home Depot you can't get it and I have to drive 70 miles just to get there. If things sell on Ebay for high $ there is nothing wrong with that as long as the product isn't misrepresented. Things sell for too much money at regular auctions also. Know what you are buying and bid accordingly.

Hi Shawn! Fellow Kansan here.
I had to laugh a bit when I read this. I'm not sure where you are in Kansas but the tool hunting is tremendous in the eastern half. I used to buy a lot of tools at auctions, kept all I wanted and sold maybe 500-600 on eBay. I've pretty much quit that now but there are plenty of tools around here.

You are right about eBay. It is what you make it. I don't buy much on eBay but I have sold a lot and probably 95%+ of the transactions have been positive experiences. Much better than you would expect in dealing with the population at large. My policy was always that a person could return an item for any reason for a refund. If an item had a flaw I didn't notice or if I described an item incorrectly I would give a full refund including all shipping charges. I never had a tool returned. One fellow said a plane had a small crack in the corner of the mouth. I offered to refund his money but he asked for a small credit instead. I doubled the amount he asked for and sent it to him. There are many good, trustworthy tool dealers on eBay but many times an item you want is being listed by someone who has little to no knowlege of what they are offering. It is up to the buyer to make good decisions and ask questions.
When both parties are honest, an auction is the most fair system there is. The seller sets his minimum price and the buyers set their maximum price. An eBay auction may seem informal but it is a legal transaction. There is conduct that is unlawful. Collusion among buyers is an example. Shill bidding on the part of the seller is another example. That is why eBay transactions, especially ongoing auctions, should not be discussed on fora such as these.

[Shawn Swafford]

Roger, I am in the south central part of the state. Sounds like I need to get over your way. I'm west of Wichita 70 miles and there is NOTHING out here! What I do find is so high priced you can't afford to buy it anyway. Thanks for the tip :) .

Shawn

[Mark Stutz]

Dave,
Don't think for a minute that those dates are not already on my calendar. Just have to get there, but having an excuse is great. Indianapolis is a little closer though. Do you know anything about those? Will ther also be a flea market type thing or only the auction?

[Roger Bell]

I really don't know why Neanders can't post their hand tool wish lists in the Classified Forum. You never know, someone might have what you want. I have sold a number of items on other boards by simply responding to someone placing a "looking for" or "wanted" post. It is rare for me to see such posts here.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I have to disagree with some of the negative comments about e-bay too. You pay what you want, when the price gets too high, just drop out and wait for the next one to come along. E-bay also gives me access to things I can't find locally. I have bought almost 200 different items and have only been disappointed twice and once was my fault for not reading the item description close enough. One of my recent purchases was an interface card for a Cisco router. $800 new, but I found two for $50 on e-bay.

[Chris Thompson]

I'm (obviously) pro-ebay. But like everything in life, it's caveat emptor.

There are some amazing deals to be had, but probably less than 5% of the auctions are worthwhile, you just need to be careful.

I just have a plan going in.

Lately I've been looking for Bailey planes. I knew going in I wanted at least one jointer plane, and a few #5s.

In all my research, it seems most people feel that the best Stanley/Bailey planes are pre-WW2. Since most auctions are posted with poor quality pictures that won't let you accurately date a plane, you've got to go big picture. What can you identify from bad pictures that helps you grade a plane?

I look for the following. Short knob, or at least tall knob with no ring.

http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/knobs.jpg

(Please note that picture is from Patrick Leach of http://www.supertool.com/, and probably copyrighted by him.)

The knob on stanley planes got taller with the Type 12 planes made between 1919 and 1924. If you see an auction with a short knob, it's definitely pre 1919, and hence, pre ww2.

If you've got a decent enough picture of the knob, if there's not a raised ring cast into the body around the base of a high knob, it's a Type 12 or 13 made until 1928 and still pre-war. If there's a ring, and the hole in the lever cap is not kidney shaped, it's a type 14 made up until 1933, but since lever caps are often changed around, this isn't a really good indicator, and so I avoid any with a ring.

It's not that later planes are inherently bad, it's that it's hard to distinguish from crude photos later than about the Type 13. So that's why I stick with this plan.

I also carefully look at the photos as closely as I can, looking for obvious cracks, and if they're kind enough to include a picture of the sole, make sure the mouth looks free of chips. Planes with solid totes and knobs (especially those where the upper horn on the tote is intact) are nice, but not necessary.

Does it work? Absolutely. Yesterday I got yet another package. Inside was a #5 that has me absolutely giddy. A type 13, (tall knob, no ring) in amazing shape. Dirty more than anything, I literally could scary-sharp the iron and cut fluffy shavings as is, with no restoration at all. My cost? $16. (And yes, I know the rules, no pic, no tool. Digital camera is charging at home now.)

I also got my Ohio Tool #7 for $26 using much the same logic, though with it not being a Bailey, there was a higher risk.

So, caveat emptor. Go in with a plan, stick to it, don't be afraid to pass.

[Roger Nixon]

Roger, I am in the south central part of the state. Sounds like I need to get over your way. I'm west of Wichita 70 miles and there is NOTHING out here! What I do find is so high priced you can't afford to buy it anyway. Thanks for the tip :) .

Shawn

I can believe that. Not much wood to work around there.
You might want to contact the Southwest Tool Collectors Association (http://www.swtca.org) . Emory Goad is the president and he lives in Wichita.

There are auctions just about every week at the Salina fairgrounds and they get some nice tools from time to time. I picked these up last time I was there

http://www.estimatortools.us/forum/files/weekendhaul.jpg

The NIB planes were $25-$40 each. The Stanley #40 scrub was $35. Everything else was under $20 including a Sargent VBM 424 (24" jointer), a Stanley #7 Type 15, #5 12 Type 15, a WWII era #4 1/2, a large panel raiser, etc.

[Marc Hills]

Aaaahhhhhh! [Hands over hears] Blah, blah, blah, blah! I cannot hear you, Roger! I cannot heeeear you! Blah, blah, blah, blah! Arrrrggggghhhhhhhhh!

[Shawn Swafford]

Roger, that was a good day at the auction! Salina is only two hours away so guess where I will be going :D . Thanks for the heads up!

Shawn

[Roger Nixon]

That was a good day but I really screwed up. They had advertised a Stanley #1. When I checked it out, it was unlike any Stanley I had seen and was only marked L. Bailey. Since I was unsure about it, I chickened out at $900 and it wound up selling for $1100. Later I found it was a pre-Stanley Leonard Bailey :eek: and I shoulda kept going :mad: .