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Blaine Johnston
04-26-2011, 8:41 PM
I'm a fine furniture teacher in North Carolina, and our plans to purchase a sliding panel saw are fizzling. We're starting to think about using the funds to purchase a CNC Router. I don't know much about them, but am very eager to learn.

Normally I research the heck out of a new purchase, but there is a time constraint and I can't exactly walk into a store and mess with one. Also, I'm not sure what I'd be looking for.

Our budget, all inclusive, is around 8-9,000. This is going into a college environment so it won't be used heavily, but maybe abused unintentionally. I'd really love to be able to fit a 4x8 sheet on it, but whatever I can get. Dust collector is already present. It probably would be used for cutting repeated parts, some carvings, 3-d sculpting, and processing some plywood.

Unfortunately I'm not allowed to look at used equipment. If anyone can give me some good suggestions I'd really appreciate.

Jerome Stanek
04-27-2011, 5:40 AM
Talk to Ted at Shopbot they have tools in a lot of schools. They are from Durham.

Bob Schlowsky
04-27-2011, 8:13 AM
I second the Shopbot suggestion. They have great customer service, and with Ted, the owner, being from academia they should understand your environment.

Mick A Martin
04-27-2011, 8:38 AM
Take a look at CAMaster they have a solid built welded frame machine and supply to schools and colleges I think there is also a 10% discount.

Mick

Dan Hintz
04-27-2011, 8:42 AM
You may have a tough time with the $8-9k budget if you want a full 4x8 sheet in at once, though...

Ross Moshinsky
04-27-2011, 9:24 AM
For $8-9k, you'll probably need a good amount of help from manufacturers. Vectric Aspire(software) alone is $2000.

If you can't buy new, then I suggest building your own. You should have all the resources available to build one fairly easily. It's a fairly simple project when you have the tools and resources. It should be interesting for the whole school since it can work in the welding students, electrical students, construction students, painting students, and the technical drawing students. You could easily build a 4x8 machine that will last a long time for $5000.

Another option I'm currently researching is xyzgantry.com. It's kind of a mix between DIY and commercial. They provide everything cut and ready. You have to assemble it and put it on a base. I don't know if quotes are confidential, but I'll say a 4x8 machine fits your budget but it would be had to squeeze software in too.

Curt Harms
04-28-2011, 7:46 AM
There may be one other angle to present to the powers-that-be. Students would likely be better able to figure out a sliding table on their own or with minimal instruction than to figure out CNC operations with the same minimal instruction. Learning CNC theory and practice should be of value to the students. I don't know how this meshes with the fine furniture part but for non-artisan woodworking, CNC machines are not going away. CAD/CAM/CNC seems like it'll be part of any future manufacturing related employment. I don't know that there are many jobs that can be done on a sliding saw that can't be done on a conventional table saw. Not as fast and you may need more jigs but you're not running a production shop. At least that's how I as a non-teacher would look at it.

james mcgrew
04-28-2011, 9:40 AM
i helped the richland northeast high school get a cnc in their cabinetry program. it is a worth while venture and there are some creative ways to get the machine and the software. the camheads forum is a good place to start. there are local patrons in your community which will provide funding. feel free to call

camheads.org

803 518 2074

jim mcgrew

Leo Voisine
05-07-2011, 12:59 PM
REAL nice opportunity to have a student CNC build.

Joes CNC machine plans - might be within budget and all involved would learn a lot.

It this a vocational school?

Machine shop could be involved, Carpentry, Electronics, Drafting, computer, etc.

It would be a multi discipline approach.

Then there would also be some CNC involvement.

Sounds like opportunity to me.

At to programming software - Aspire is a NICE to have - I wish I had it.

However it is NOT a must have - there are far less expensive alternative options.
I would recommend Vectric highly - but V-Carve Pro and Cut 3D - or even free 3D machinist will go a LONG way.

Brandon MacDougall
05-15-2011, 12:59 PM
I would look at the carvewright under 2000.00 bucks including software.

james mcgrew
05-19-2011, 7:48 AM
i also have the carvewright and have helped get cnc machines in schools, i would reccomend a build like a joes machine or a purchase like a camaster or a shopbot, my reasoning is this the carvewright while vastly improved (after using the first few thousand owners as unsuspecting beta testers with lousy machines) will not teach gcode, or basic cnc programing which the student will find a requirement in the applied world this is a crucial learning point in the education of this type of machinery and should not be ecluded from cirriculum. the carveright is a plug and play which while functional (brandon produces exceptional work with his) it would not be a first choice as an instructional machine

Mike Wenman
05-19-2011, 1:54 PM
Check out buildyourcnc.com. Patricks machine offers a 4x8 routing area with electronics for $2900. You provide your own PC and build your own table surface.

Blaine Johnston
08-11-2011, 9:18 AM
Thank you for all of your responses! I hate it when people don't repost after they ask a question.

I checked out a few different options and was interested in ShopBot and CAMaster equipment. The people at CAMaster have a FINE product, and it isn't too expensive, and were very willing to help me with my interest, but I ended up going with a ShopBot Buddy 32 Standard for a few reasons.

1. We already have a larger shopbot on campus so I knew all of the software would relate. For instance if a student had a design that wouldn't fit on our machine, all they had to do was take the other instructor the file and some brownies and they were set.

2. It is easily upgradable to 8' capacity while not being too bulky yet.

3. They are local (North Carolina).

4. If fit the budget.

5. I had very little time, and I was a bit tired of trying to research and get price quotes for sliding panel saws and CNC's.

I personally like the home built idea. But for the school, turnkey, training, and tech-support are invaluable.

Brandon MacDougall
08-13-2011, 3:49 PM
will not teach gcode, or basic cnc programing which the student will find a requirement in the applied world this is a crucial learning point in the education of this type of machinery and should not be ecluded from cirriculum.

I am not so sure that this statement is conclusive for the new generation of cam/3D students and since we are always learning he or she will have ample time to study gcoad and take a class on a HASS/

I think the kids would be able to learn basic cad cam and advanced concept's using 3D modeling tools and the Carvewright for a little as 3000k.

here is one of our CW user that made his own dust cap. If your 19 year old student was to manufacture this on a CW I think you would be proud.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEuxLaUDw-c

james mcgrew
08-13-2011, 4:04 PM
brandon the z head in the vid has a "brass" button in the curved recess, the updated replacement "z" on the cw website does not show this,, is this a stop button for changing bits ? and is it on the upgrade?

i have thought of up grading my cw (been in the barn for three years, do not buy a larger cnc it is hard to go back) i do have some stuff i can do with it and i believe if i were to set it up my wife might use it.

Brandon MacDougall
08-13-2011, 4:20 PM
This guy made his own ER spindle, he will try anything! Here is a small thread about his dust cap he made http:// forum.carvewright.com/showthread.php?18608-To-Carve-the-Dust-Cap

james mcgrew
08-13-2011, 5:32 PM
that is a right cute dustcap, so i guess the answer is it is not worth fixing the carvewright ? i am still at a loss for what the brass button has to do with the spindle as an er collet is a wrenched item

i was watching some of his other vids it looks like he siezes the shaft for a bit change, seems carvewright would want this

Brandon MacDougall
08-13-2011, 5:43 PM
so i guess the answer is it is not worth fixing the carvewright ?

Run it down to your local math lab I am sure one of the kids could fix it for under 300 bucks that is if your not just pulling my leg...

james mcgrew
08-13-2011, 5:49 PM
i would really like to fix it would you mind giving your friend my contact, i can probably find him thru you tube. not sure i would go as far as he did, is the upgrade spindle a wrench use or is it still the click and hold collet

james mcgrew
08-13-2011, 5:57 PM
no need to hijack this thread, been studying the carve tight and may just tackle this thing again !!

Brandon MacDougall
08-13-2011, 6:01 PM
You could just need a "carvetight" it's a new spindle replacement around $200.00.

james mcgrew
08-13-2011, 6:06 PM
i destroyed two of the qc collets, this was the reason i put it down (that and my 100.000.00 cnc addicton) the new collet looks good, mine still runs

thanks

Brandon MacDougall
08-13-2011, 9:15 PM
i destroyed two of the qc collets, this was the reason i put it down (that and my 100.000.00 cnc addiction) the new collet looks good, mine still runs



Hi Jim,
the old Qc is a bad choice and not reliable so the "Carvetight (http://www.carvewright.com/2010CWweb/products/accessories/cwcarvetight.php)" is the replacement part for the CNC it's a good chuck and the way to go " I own one" also as a option, the "Rock chuck" (http://www.cw-parts.com/page2.html)made by a master machinist in Ohio "I own three" and custom ER ones built like the one above.

Brandon

AL Ursich
08-14-2011, 3:45 PM
I am with Brandon on the School or Community Colege getting a few CarveWright's as a starting point for learning the ways of a CNC. Having say, 4 machines would help prevent the bottleneck of getting projects done. And with the Free Software Download, Students could work at home and with the cost of the machine possibly purchase one for home to continue process.

Sure we would like to all start out cutting a sheet of plywood into kitchen cabinets. Making Small Signs, Clocks, Games, CO2 Slot Cars is a excellent starting point.... School is a Starting Place.... what better place to start than easy to use Designer Software. With Memory Cards being cheap, Students could buy there own CW card to store projects or even Easier... Store them on USB Pocket Zip Drives... From Home to School...

Sure, it would be great watching a Shop Bot cut a single project while the Class is in session, but imagine the excitement when 4 projects can be carved at once.

I post over on the CarveWright Forum as Digitalwoodshop and my 2 websites reflect my 7 day a week bussiness.... What better thing for a old Retired Navy Chief to do... Get 4 CW's.... I cut tag stock for my Successful Fire Accountability Tags Products as seen in the scrap FRP sheets.

I once dreamed of getting at Shop Bot..... It was PERFECT for my buisiness... Then I saw the Sears TV Ad on the Discovery Channel target to guys like me... I had one ordered by the end of the night..... The more expensive Shop Bot was 5 years away....

Now at the almost 5 year point, I will be spending that Shop Bot Money on a Direct Jet 2-17 Full Color Flatbed Printer. The 4 CW's do everything I need including cutting PVC Letters for a build sign.

AL

james mcgrew
08-14-2011, 7:58 PM
ok, ok, so i can see why brandon thought i was pulling his leg and this is fair i kinda felt that way earlier as it invoked feelings i had when i and many others were put off by the CW company in the beginning, many know my story, i was eating lunch with the employees had a pocket full of money from a job finish and the sears commercial came on, ( june of 07) well i got right up and went to sears, they had no clue what i was asking for (and still don't) t took a bit to convince them to take my money (never had to teach the salesman like that before) and two days later i got my CW (compucarve) off i went just like the commercial i was cutting in minutes !!! in a few days the collet (QC) came apart, ok ok got a new one and purchased the centerline (vcarve) text. well one breakdown after another and i quickly saw this was not going to cut it in my world, it is just not the industrial quality i would need in the world of cabinetmaking (and what would become the chess players, 72" eagle,globe and anchors etc,) on the other hand it is what i expected a desktop with some limitations,yet it is in the right price range for that,,, after CW said the screws for my cover (which vibrated out) was about 200.00 plus shipping 300.00+ there was no way i was spending any more money on it... (carvewright used a good many customers as guinea pigs till they got the machine right)

and off to CAMaster i went...but that is another story

so fast forward to today

i went out and cleaned the barn (i knew i would not do this without some stageing) i got the CW out and put it up on the table, found the reader with the card in it (notice the blue tape replacement cover hinge) lo and behold the card still had the last file i ran in it so i figured what the heck without even lubing up the shaft i ran the machine and it did exactly what it was supposed to !!!!!!!!!!!! as i told brandon earlier today (and man i absolutly admire his work !!!!) i am gonna spend a few more bucks and clean her up for some small use around the farm (gonna put a new 510 CAMaster atc out here in the fall) but there are some signs (horse barns which need upgrading) so i am gonna fix her up one more time (it has had less than 8 weeks actual use including today)now i know Al,s work well i still follow the cw forum and am well aware of the capabilitys for a tuned individual with this machine, unfortunantly a school is not that,, where the true enthusiast will do what ever to obtain sucess with a machine a school will not, niether will most if not all employees in a commercial shop, for this reason i would not recommend a carvewright for institutional use, the turnover just will not follow what it needs nor will it prepare a student for operationg commercial machinery, now for an introduction possibly yet it (the carvewright) is such a fantastic machine at simplification it almost removes all elements of geometry, physics and machine operation.

i can truley respect the passion for one who owns these type of carving machines and i am well aware the CW has come a long way!!

i own one and today i got reaquainted with it,, yet for a school,, sorry i cannot go there


205130205129205128205127

AL Ursich
08-14-2011, 8:05 PM
Well said, Great points.... A Ringneck Blues Dust collector and $50.00 investment would be a great investment.

Good Luck,

AL

Brandon MacDougall
08-15-2011, 2:31 AM
i still follow the cw forum and am well aware of the capabilitys for a tuned individual with this machine, unfortunantly a school is not that,, where the true enthusiast will do what ever to obtain sucess with a machine a school will not, niether will most if not all employees in a commercial shop, for this reason i would not recommend a carvewright for institutional use, the turnover just will not follow what it needs nor will it prepare a student for operationg commercial machinery, now for an introduction possibly yet it (the carvewright) is such a fantastic machine at simplification it almost removes all elements of geometry, physics and machine operation.



James a little harsh to say the least and kinda insulating to a lot of people who can't afford your CNC's.


Here is one of the types of instruments we build including a newly designed electric bridge (http://www.liquidguitars.com/assets/images/ImperialBrgR003.jpg)carved on the unit with internal wire and pickup chases. I set it up so a 19 year old could do it Hehh heh.

http://www.liquidguitars.com/LG5RR001.jpg
http://www.liquidguitars.com/assets/images/ViolingreenR001.jpg

james mcgrew
08-15-2011, 7:31 AM
last week a client (a school) want a piece that was real tricky,, she also came up with a deadline of september 7 and we had started fabrication, she came to see the piece and decided on a major change without any consideration for what she had approved,, we also were working with a material and a bend (radius) against grain we had never done, looking at her changes, lack of understanding of the process i emailed her and cancelled the delivery date,,, boy was she pissed and a few right pert emails later in which she did everthing she could (including shame) to get me to re enter the work, she told me she was going to have to inform the principle of my failure to deliver and the consequences........ sure enough the principle showed up and said, " boy you sure have rocked her boat (his diplomatic way of saying i pissed her off) yet i came to thank you as we (the school) can ill afford to make mistakes as our budgets are sooo tight we have no room for mistakes.. now when can we reset the date and see what has to be done to accomplish the project.. i looked at him and said " Doing the right thing is not always popular nor easy,, but it is a requirement of my job"

one of my largest reasons for my not seeing the CW as a school machine is the in ability of the common school shop to work on it, all parts are propietary and so is the software, (and it is some cool software) i downloaded the software last night and it is not free one must register within 30 days, this is done to keep control of an income stream both initially and in the future, CW is not gonna give licences out at random to students. the issure of future repair is another, with a joes cnc, camaster or shopbot the local mechanic, cnc operator or machine shop can get parts and keep it running (and quick too!) i work with two local schools (donated a cnc to one) consult and guest teach for free, (although the reward to me is greater than that) i make these observations with an intent of being non biased and in the best interest of the school not the machine as i own or have owned a shopbot, camaster and a Carvewright, i met joe in texas and he gave me a set of plans i may just yet build that one too!

the Carvewright has a place (well earned) in the cnc world, Brandon and Al's work is proof of this,, i personally do not think a general shop class is one of these places.

one more small note, i do not sell cnc machines. many here on this forum have been to my shop and seen first hand what i do, yet i am flattered that someone thinks i could !!

Connie Ratisseau
08-16-2011, 12:02 PM
There are many CW's in classrooms from middle schools to universities to prison systems; rehabilitation centers (even for the blind), commercial shops and artist studios. CW is more affordable for most schools and it is a great introduction to CNC. It has it's fit and it's purpose. I hear too, that it gets along very well with the "big boys" that it shares a shop with.

As far as the software goes, with DXF & STL Importer and the ability to export to STL using the Scanning Probe & Pattern Editor, proprietary software is more of a non-issue. Technology advances. Just because you no longer program in Fortran or Cobol, does not mean you are not a computer programmer. You no longer need to know html in order to create a website. Software has moved more object oriented.

Preventive maintenance is key with the machine and the new C version is much more solid. One of my favorite posts on the CW forum is from Al Ursich (digitalwoodshop) where he posted:



Well look at that.... 33 Posts chasing a 3 inch tail Pilot Error... LOL....

Glad you got it working correct.... I see a former 3 inch sled getting the Fire Wood Treatment...

Well, at least is was a Troubleshooting Post.... Darn Machine is getting so reliable that it is putting the Maytag Repairman like me out of business... LOL...

AL

james mcgrew
08-16-2011, 1:47 PM
"There are many CW's in classrooms from middle schools to universities to prison systems; rehabilitation centers (even for the blind), commercial shops and artist studios. CW is more affordable for most schools and it is a great introduction to CNC. It has it's fit and it's purpose. I hear too, that it gets along very well with the "big boys" that it shares a shop with."

could not agree with this more, espaecially the word "introduction" it worked for me...and it is safe enough for small children,,,, yet


we are members of the AWI, cabinet makers in the commercial world, the end users along with many other industries (printing, metal signage etc) where the result of an education is paramount to manufacturing, that said if a young fellow/person came to my shop and represented himself to be capable of operating a cnc machine and on the level of experience he listed "Carvewright" he would be shown the door. sorry i want autocad, gcode, and safety operations, this machine has a reason and a place, but i do not see its methods as better than industry standards. this would be a case of saving too much money which while that sounds redundant is a very real problem.

Brandon MacDougall
08-16-2011, 2:35 PM
we are members of the AWI, cabinet makers in the commercial world, the end users along with many other industries (printing, metal signage etc) where the result of an education is paramount to manufacturing, that said if a young fellow/person came to my shop and represented himself to be capable of operating a cnc machine and on the level of experience he listed "Carvewright" he would be shown the door.

Cool, I earned my Ca.State contractors lic, " Cabinet and millwright" over 20 years ago. If a young man or gal stepped into my office with mad 3D skill and he/she had CW experience i would be happy to talk to him.

james mcgrew
08-16-2011, 2:40 PM
and in your work i would snap him up as well, yet his background would be graphics, art modeling and programing.. the machining to him would be secondary. and you are right he could accomplish this on a CW!

AL Ursich
08-17-2011, 10:44 PM
Sometimes the Retired Navy Chief in me shows up in a "Interesting" Post....

I do love my CW's... And if I had a Shop Bot I would love that too.... The money made and saved by using CW's for my Business Needs is putting me in position to buy a Flatbed Color Printer next year. Taking my Business and one man Shop to a whole new level....

AL who.... A little humor from a service call to LHR a few years ago.... "This is AL".... AL who?