Finishing dilemma

[Roger Chandler]

I guess my two weakest areas of wood turning are wood storage/drying and finishing.

I have not done a bowl in a number of months, and I have not turned a natural edge in nearly two years, so I thought I had a good blank to try and brush up on my skills a little.

Turning went okay, but the blank [cherry log] really cracked on me, :( so I had to use a generous portion of CA glue to stabilize and that several times, which made the glue soak all the way through the pores of the wood, and I cannot seem to get it sanded out, no matter what I do. :(

Also, the end grain just will not sand smooth either. :mad: I went through the grits twice from 80 grit to 320 grit both with hand and power sanding [2" discs on a drill] and then repeated it again, and I am left with a less than desirable finish to start with. :(

I also went ahead and applied 2 coats of shellac, hoping it would dry and then I can sand again, and hopefully some of the tear out will sand away. :confused:

Any ideas you have would be appreciated...........:) Size is 11-1/2 inches long and 8-3/4 wide.

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Any ideas on a finish that will keep the CA glue from showing through??? :confused: :eek:http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.png

[Bill Bolen]

Roger that is just the nature of ca and wood. I always put a dab of the finish I intend to use on my finger and spread it over the area to be glued BEFORE using the CA. Really helps to minimize the staining from the ca and sands out nicely after all is dry. Man you have a nice ne going there. The even wall thickness can be hard to get but you sure did it here. A lovely piece of Cherry too.

[Jim Burr]

+2 on what Bill does. The downside is the you have to know what finish you are going to use before hand. SInce I finish pens in CA...I can get away with out the extra step. Good looking bowl by the way!

[Tim Rinehart]

Tearout can be insidious...and it's depth is confounding!! Very difficult to deal with sanding out tearout that is fairly heavy. If it doesn't come out with 80 grit...go to 60 grit before getting finer. No sense wasting good paper except to remove sanding lines.
Hopefully you can still recover on this one by sanding...but next time, may want to try sealing some of the end grain area before your final cuts with a razor sharp tool.
Beauty of a NE...I hope you can save it by resanding. Call Vince at woodnwonders and see what he thinks!

[Prashun Patel]

Wally Dickerman posted a thread about wetsanding with oil. I can't believe how well this worked for me on a maple bowl I just did. The whiskers on the end grain were very prominent and would not sand away with 80g. Wetsanding made me go thru a lot of paper, but it made all the grits cut more effectively. Counterintuitive, but it worked. Perhaps it's because sanding creates a slurry - not so much dust. So it sticks around, helping to both abrade the surface more, but also clogging up the paper quicker.

Nice bowl, btw.

As for the staining, Moving up a shade in shellac or using an oil with some color in it might minimize the visibility of the staining.

I 'stained' a cherry bowl similarly, and it all but disappeared after the finish was on.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Roger,
Why not finish turn the bowl including the base, then stick it in a paper bag a couple weeks and let it dry. Sand it when it is dry. It may move a bit more than if you get some oil on it while wet but it will sand out better. I use a pneumatic ROS with a 2" or 3" disk and it is not much more work than sanding on the lathe.
By the way, great looking bowl. Sorry you had to deal with cracks.
faust

[Jamie Donaldson]

My secret to making CA glue lines invisible is to apply a coat of lacquer thinned about 5~10% with acetone before using CA. This is a basic sanding sealer, and it also stabilizes the tear-out problems on both softer end grain and side grain woods, as well as stabilizing spalted wood. The thin lacquer fills the pores of the wood, then the CA will not wick into the areas around the glue line, making a shiny 1/4" stripe when the final finish is applied.

[Roger Chandler]

My secret to making CA glue lines invisible is to apply a coat of lacquer thinned about 5~10% with acetone before using CA. This is a basic sanding sealer, and it also stabilizes the tear-out problems on both softer end grain and side grain woods, as well as stabilizing spalted wood. The thin lacquer fills the pores of the wood, then the CA will not wick into the areas around the glue line, making a shiny 1/4" stripe when the final finish is applied.

Thanks Jamie..........

Would a regular sanding sealer work also, or is the acetone and lacquer combo a thin mix especially suited to this?

[Roger Chandler]

Roger,
Why not finish turn the bowl including the base, then stick it in a paper bag a couple weeks and let it dry. Sand it when it is dry. It may move a bit more than if you get some oil on it while wet but it will sand out better. I use a pneumatic ROS with a 2" or 3" disk and it is not much more work than sanding on the lathe.
By the way, great looking bowl. Sorry you had to deal with cracks.
faust

Faust .........this wood is already dry...........it has been over 2 years since it was harvested, and cut into half log form, so I do not think it is going to dry much at all.

[Jamie Donaldson]

Most sanding sealer is actually lacquer with filler(the white powder in the bottom of the can), and I generally use the older Deft that is starting to thicken to mix with acetone. The acetone mix not only dries faster and penetrates deeper than lacquer thinner mix, but binds some of the remaining moisture in the wood. I turn a lot of spalted maple, and the final finish will most often be a very thin lacquer film well rubbed into the wood, rather than a built up surface finish. I like for my wood to feel like wood, not plastic.

[Roger Chandler]

Good stuff, Jamie.........I appreciate your taking the time to explain and share the tip!!! :)

[Roger Chandler]

Bill Bolen, Jim Burr, Tim Rinehart, Prashun Patel and Faust Ruggario............I just wanted to say thank you to you all for taking the time to look, post and try to help with a finishing issue, and thank you for the comments on the bowl also............it is not finished yet...............

Prashun.........I have some medium walnut danish oil that is a shade darker than the cherry.........I like your idea of shading to a darker hue, so I am going to give your suggestion a try.........thanks to you all! :)

[John Beaver]

Roger,
Good tips so far.
Since you've already applied the CA, one way to hide the staining from the CA glue is to finish the whole piece with CA. I know turners who do this all the time. Wipe it on as smooth as possible and then sand back. You can then add a finish over it.

[John Hart]

Hey Roger...Will your lathe go in reverse? Or maybe turn the bowl around and see if maybe the fibers are laying down and mistreating you?

[Roger Chandler]

Hey Roger...Will your lathe go in reverse? Or maybe turn the bowl around and see if maybe the fibers are laying down and mistreating you?

Yes John, my lathe will reverse........I thought about that, but when I have reverse sanded in times past, my results have been inconsistent. On some woods I got good results, and on others, not so much............It has helped on walnut, and on Bradford pear, but some others not too well.

This is the first piece of cherry that I have had do me this way, so I am not sure what to expect.

[Jeff Nicol]

Roger, You say the wood was cut for over a year, but there will still a lot more moisture in it than you think. I turn a ton of cherry and if it has moisture in it and even if it is very little the end grain is tough to get cut crisp and tearout free. I would have turned it down to maybe 1/2" thick and make sure the last cuts you make are very fine cuts with a small bowl gouge (I use a 1/4" standard grind) this will keep the fibers from tearing as much. Because when you take heavy cuts with a bowl gouge the end grain will most always be bent over and not cut cleanly. Once you have it at the 1/2" put some thinned out shellac on for a stiffener for the wood fibers and let the bowl stablize for a week and then finish tuning it taking small cuts and using a step method going down into the center of the bowl. Cut about an inch to you finished thickness, then another and another until you are to the bottom. Don't go back to the upper edge and try to cut again as you will get flex and chatter, sand it out and you should have a nice surface.

The CA has been addressed by the others very well, using some shellac, lacquer or some other sanding sealer will help the CA from soaking in to deep and making it darker. If you do this and then take some shavings and rub it on the crack you won't get as much staining, it may take a few times to get it filled but it will help.

Keep going for it and the shape is very nice of this bowl, so you have the right idea,

Jeff

[philip labre]

+1 on Wally's oil sanding with the coarser grits. I usually can blow out the blue discs when they clogged and continue.

[Roger Chandler]

Thanks Jeff! I like your idea of stiffening the fibers.......I guess I did not realize it would be that much bending of fibers.........I did sharpen my gouge 3 times during this turning. I put 2 coats of Zinzer seal coat on it to maybe help with a finial sanding to see if it would help, so we shall see. I don't think I am going to try and get this one any thinner, so likely my turning on it is over, and if it does not turn out to my standards, then I will chalk it up as a learning experience.

After finishing this, it will be time to move on to the next one........

I appreciate you taking the time. :)


Thanks also Philip!

[Michelle Rich]

sure looks pretty in the pictures..I use shellac as sanding sealer & will reverse sand too..generally that does the trick

[Roger Chandler]

Being the type A that I am, I just wanted to get this bowl done...........not good.......I took Prashun Patel's idea of shading the bowl darker to try and hide that tale tell CA glue stains..................that was after I resanded through all the grits again to see if the 2 coats of shellac helped with the end grain tearout.

I did help the tear out some, but boy the darkening with the medium walnut danish oil [watco] left the piece with a lot of blotchy places. The sapwood and the end grain just soaked it in, and of course...............:(:mad::mad:

Odd thing, my wife really likes it........says it has a nice rustic look and she married me so I know she has really good taste! :D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes: Hey, its a poor rooster that cannot crow in his own barnyard!!! :p:p:D;)

I am debating putting another pic up on this......I am not satisfied, and I do not have a finish coat on it yet.........so I will ponder the possibility..........requests from the gallery here might influence that a little.

Thanks to everyone who tried in vain to help me..........maybe I just don't get it, or maybe it is indeed like I stated at the very first.........finishing is probably one of my weakest areas in wood turning, although I have some very nicely finished pieces, and have some of our local club members who want me to tutor them in finishing....:eek::eek::eek: .. ....go figure!

[David E Keller]

Interesting thread, Roger... Thanks for starting it. One other trick that helps me on the exterior of forms... I use a detail gouge for a light finish cut. YMMV, but I get a better finish with my detail gouge or 3/8 bowl gouge that I do with a larger tool. I use shellac to stiffen before the final cuts if necessary and again before applying my finial finish to help even the end grain/side grain difference. Looking forward to seeing her finished.

[Jamie Donaldson]

As you have discovered, adding a finish with darker stain will only exaggerate the torn and irregular grain areas as the finish is absorbed.

[Roger Chandler]

As you have discovered, adding a finish with darker stain will only exaggerate the torn and irregular grain areas as the finish is absorbed.

Jamie........I am torn on what to do.........I really think I did a good form on this, and then I totally messed up the finish. I could kick myself! You are so right, I only accentuated the flaws when I used the darkening technique.........I guess this one can be chalked up to the school of hard knocks!

[Jamie Donaldson]

Don't devalue the time you have invested, just think about all that this piece has taught you! It's like accepting lots of free wood- if you can't turn it you can burn it!

[Bernie Weishapl]

Roger I did that on one of my first NE bowls. I remember Jamie on another forum talk about the lacquer and acetone. I use it now and it works well. The CA doesn't bleed. I also use like Antique Oil to wet sand if I have tear out and it works rather well. I use AO on most of my turnings anyway. I agree that your time wasn't wasted, it is a learning experience which you won't forget.

[David DeCristoforo]

I've never even turned dilemma, much less tried to finish it. But that CA glue is tough to deal with. I seem to be Ca challenged in that the only things I've ever been able to glue together with it are my fingers...

[John Hart]

I for one would like to see pics of your final result, Roger. Whether it is perfection or not....it helps to see what happens when stuff happens! :)

[Roger Chandler]

I for one would like to see pics of your final result, Roger. Whether it is perfection or not....it helps to see what happens when stuff happens! :)

Well, I went off to bed disgusted at the blotchy condition of this nicely formed NE bowl, and it would not let me sleep! About 1:30 am I am awake and what is on my mind is "how can I fix this or at least make it presentable." If anything I am persistent!!!

Well, I took this NE bowl back to the shop this morning and using my Holdfast vacuum chuck, I remounted it and wet sanded it through all the grits........80 to 400 with mineral spirits, which is of course a solvent, but it really helped it. About 85 -90% of the blotchy is removed, and I now have a coat of shellac on it, and will apply another when good and dry. After that a light sanding with 400 grit, and a finish of something........

When I get it done I will post a picture or two..........I am still bummed out that it had as much end grain tear out as it did, but it is slick now, even though some blotchy-ness is still noticable.