Bought another saw. I may have a problem.

[Matthew Holloway]

In the past 3 or 4 months I have combed over the entire county looking for old woodworking tools. Chisels, planes, saws it didn't matter. I spent hours going though boxes of junk at antique stores, yard sales and flea markets. I now spend my nights on ebay and craigslist in search of a tool I can't live with out. If this keeps up I going to wear out my wallet after opening it so many times. I think I may be addict to rusty old tools.:( But I can live with it.:D Last Saturday I went into an antique store I haven't been to before. After walking the half the store I came upon a pile of rusty saws. All of them were no name Chinese junk except one. A Simonds no. 72. I look it over carefully and it was in good shape. It had a bit rust but most of it was superficial. I already have a few handsaws and wasn't needing another so I put it back atop the pile. After two days I could not get that saw out of my head. I just had to had to buy it.:o So now I have yet another saw sitting on my work bench waiting for me to build them a saw till.;)


http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee60/holloway1985/DSC04816.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee60/holloway1985/DSC04834.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee60/holloway1985/DSC04837.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

Looks like a nice crosscut saw. The patent date on the medallion is for the improvement to the saw nuts. That would likely date the saw to after 1887 to about 1902. My memory thinks patents were usually for 15 years at that time.

You will find it is handy to have saws with different tooth counts for ripping and crosscutting. Especially if you have a lot of different chores around the house.

jtk

[Tim Atkins]

Awesome find. Time to find the file.

[Joshua Clark]

Matt- That is a very nice saw you found there- Simonds made high quality saws in the very beginning of the 20th century. This saw likely dates to 1910-1926 based on the medallion. Simonds saws have a great reputation amongst saw users. They are considered to be high quality saws. This one was a mid-range saw in the Simonds line-up. It should have an apple handle and taper-ground skew-back blade. It's a fine saw.

Josh

[george wilson]

Your saw will cut much better if you refile it correctly,and get rid if those peg teeth. They cut in either direction,but not very well in either.

[lowell holmes]

George,

I'm not familiar with the term peg teeth. Will you elaborate on it? :)

I'm a little slow this morning. I realized after logging off, you were referring to the rake.

[george wilson]

Peg teeth are filed into equilateral triangles that cut in either direction. But,they haven't the shape to bite into the wood very well due to the negative rake of their cutting edges. Years ago,in Fine Woodworking,there was an article by some guy on filing backsaws. He used the peg tooth. I was appalled that the editors let that article get printed. Of course,I have been appalled other times by various woodworking magazines that let their articles be written by hobby types so they can get free articles to print. Too often,the editors don't know any better themselves. The reader suffers if he hasn't gotten far along enough to know what the truth is.

[Jim Koepke]

This saw likely dates to 1910-1926 based on the medallion.

Josh

Josh,

Maybe I am missing something. The medallion has an 1887 patent date. Was that used on medallions from 1910 - 1926?

jtk

[Chris Vandiver]

I think that the #72 was a "Blue Ribbon" saw, one of Simonds top of the line saws. Should be a great saw!

[Joshua Clark]

Josh,

Maybe I am missing something. The medallion has an 1887 patent date. Was that used on medallions from 1910 - 1926?

jtk

Yes, some medallions from this era still have Glover's patent date on them. We know that Simonds made saws from about 1901-1926. Their first saws, made up until about 1907, had the moon and star logo. The No. 72 does not appear in the Simonds 1910 catalog but it is in the 1919 catalog. So this saw was likely made somewhere between 1910 and 1926.

There are two good web sites on Simonds saws: Brian Welch's site here: http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/simonds/handsaws.htm (http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/simonds/handsaws.htm)
and this page: http://www.wkfinetools.com/cCorner/c_BrickhouseF/saws/Simonds/crescentM/crescentM.asp on Wiktor's site.

Hope this helps,
Josh

[Chuck Nickerson]

You don't have a problem until you run out of room.

Nice find.

[Matthew Holloway]

Yes, some medallions from this era still have Glover's patent date on them. We know that Simonds made saws from about 1901-1926. Their first saws, made up until about 1907, had the moon and star logo. The No. 72 does not appear in the Simonds 1910 catalog but it is in the 1919 catalog. So this saw was likely made somewhere between 1910 and 1926.

There are two good web sites on Simonds saws: Brian Welch's site here: http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/simonds/handsaws.htm (http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/simonds/handsaws.htm)
and this page: http://www.wkfinetools.com/cCorner/c_BrickhouseF/saws/Simonds/crescentM/crescentM.asp on Wiktor's site.

Hope this helps,
Josh


Thanks for the links. According to this page Simonds changed the medallion in 1922. http://galootcentral.com/membersites/brianwelch/simonds/medallions.htm

If this is accurate then my saw was made between 1910 and 1922.

[Jonathan McCullough]

This one was a mid-range saw in the Simonds line-up.
Josh

Really? My understanding is that any of the "Blue Ribbon" saws are considered primo, including the 61, 62, 71, and 72, as well as their lightweight ship-point counterparts (361, 362 etc.) I've only been able to find some No. 5s, No. 7s, 10s, and a No. 71, and some Bay State-labeled Simonds saws, and I'd have to say it's been hard luck finding a bad saw among them. What distinguishes them from others, (from my limited observations thus far) is their excellent tensioning and tempering. Really nice saws.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting and a bit odd to put a patent date on something after the patent expired.

Found some more items of interest:

http://www.simonds.cc/company/history17.php?menu=../mnu/mnuCompanyHistory


Simonds offered three grades of hand saws. First quality saws carried the Simonds name and featured the company's logo and guarantee etched on the blade of the saw. Middle grade saws were branded Bay State Saw Works (a small Fitchburg saw company absorbed by Simonds in the late 1870's). The lowest grade, least expensive saws were branded with the names of famous American Indian tribes. To support this new product line, a new building was added to the North Street factory complex.

Even though they owned a saw making company as early as the 1870s it does seem they didn't sell saws with the Simonds name until about 1900.

jtk

[JohnPeter Lee]

+1 on the really nice saw part.
I have a KeenKutter 88 panel saw, and it cuts fast and very clean. Been scouring online for more...

[Mike Allen1010]

Congratulations Matthew Simonds 72 is quite a find! I believe Jonathan is absolutely correct that the 72 is one of the "blue-ribbon" saws.

Among the embarrassingly large number of hand saws my shop, I have a half-dozen Simonds including a 61 and 72 "blue-ribbon" saws and #6, 8 and 10, which were considered their mid-priced saws. They are all among my favorites. In particular, I find as Jonathan mentioned, the saw plates are very solid, well tensioned and take a file well. I particularly liked them for soft words or words with a higher moisture content because I find the mass and firmness of their plates help them fly right through the wood, even with fairly minimal set.

Yours is the kind of story that keeps me stopping in those antique shops!

Regards, Mike

[john brenton]

Not to hijack the thread, but I have a "Celebrated Aetna" panel saw that bears a striking resemblance to this Simonds (not that saws are all THAT varied to an untrained eye like mine), but I have never been able to find out anything about Aetna saws. Anyone? Anyone? It's a fantastic little saw.

[Joshua Clark]

Oh- don't get me wrong, it's a fine, fine saw. The high-end of the Blue Ribbon line was the 61/62 and their lightweight equivalents. The 71/72 were a (slight) step down in price- about 25% less expensive- right in the middle of the Blue Ribbon series. BTW- on minty examples of the Blue Ribbon saws, you can see that the ribbon was actually painted blue at the factory: http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/fs/s21_3.jpg This paint wears off quickly when the saw is used.

Any of the Simonds saws are excellent users. They have a very good reputation among folks who really use saws- many consider them the finest saws ever made. Unfortunately, they aren't terribly common, at least not compared to Disstons, even around here.

Josh

[john brenton]

I'm certainly not arguing with you George, but my "go to" x-cut saw has just about the same rake angle as the OP's Simonds...perhaps a tiny bit more positive...and I prefer it on soft woods and medium density woods. I always filed the "prescribed" rake and fleam angles, but got my little saw from somebody's great grandfather who really seemed to know his stuff so I followed the angles on his saw, which was a "pegged tooth" and a bit of a steeper fleam angle. I like it.


Peg teeth are filed into equilateral triangles that cut in either direction. But,they haven't the shape to bite into the wood very well due to the negative rake of their cutting edges. Years ago,in Fine Woodworking,there was an article by some guy on filing backsaws. He used the peg tooth. I was appalled that the editors let that article get printed. Of course,I have been appalled other times by various woodworking magazines that let their articles be written by hobby types so they can get free articles to print. Too often,the editors don't know any better themselves. The reader suffers if he hasn't gotten far along enough to know what the truth is.

[Jonathan McCullough]

The 71/72 were a (slight) step down in price- about 25% less expensive- right in the middle of the Blue Ribbon series.

That's a very nice saw (Seriously, I'm envious), and yes, I saw the price comparisons from that website. But I'm curious about the practical distinctions between those models--the 61/62 versus the 71/72s--do you have some of each and if so, how do they compare? Are the 61/62s thinner?

[george wilson]

John,I think the key woods you mention,soft woods and medium density woods help make the saw cut better. Consider the very negative angle at which the teeth try to cut the wood. A steeper,less negative angle,like correctly filed teeth usually have,allows the saw to cut more aggressively. Some negative angle is desirable,or the saw would grab so badly that you couldn't push it. Have you tried to saw with one of those "razor saws" for model makers? They have very aggressive positive rake angles,and they are nearly impossible to saw anything except balsa wood with.

Certainly peg teeth will cut,especially when they are sharp. It's just that they could cut better with less negative angle. I have one of those offset back saws with reversible handle that is for cutting dowels off flush. The teeth are peg teeth so they cut in either direction. The saw is in new condition since I have seldom used it,because it cuts poorly in either direction.

[john brenton]

Of course George...that's how we can agree but disagree. I totally agree that the "peg tooth" is completely innefficient for most work, but I do like it for pine and softer hardwoods. Again, it's not COMPLETELY peg tooth like a farmers saw or anything, but the rake is quite a bit more negative than the standard angle.

I have yet to use my reversible dovetail saw either. At this point it seems just as useless as the Nicholson "3-in-1 file/chisel" dealies.


John,I think the key woods you mention,soft woods and medium density woods help make the saw cut better. Consider the very negative angle at which the teeth try to cut the wood.

Certainly peg teeth will cut,especially when they are sharp. It's just that they could cut better with less negative angle. I have one of those offset back saws with reversible handle that is for cutting dowels off flush. The teeth are peg teeth so they cut in either direction. The saw is in new condition since I have seldom used it,because it cuts poorly in either direction.