Power for a table saw

[Marc Myers]

I tried to post this in "workshops" but got no replies. Hopefully I''ll have better luck in this forum.

I'm in the market for a new table saw to replace an older Delta 36-600. I'm finding that I'm running into some power issues with newer and more powerful tools. I'm a few years away from being able to move to a new place with a bigger shop, so I don't want to dump a lot of money upgrading the panel. Currently, I only have 100 amp service into the entire house. It was built in the 70's as a small place and I'm sure at that time, no one ever thought there would be a shop in the basement. All the circuit brakers that feed into the shop are 15 amps. The panel is maxed out, and I do not have room to and any 220 lines to power up big 3hp table saws. I'm looking hard at the hybrid table saws that can be wired to either 110 or 220. Run it off 110 now and when I move, swap it over 220 for the better electrical efficency. I do not do woodworking full time, so the saw will not see continual use over an "8 hr workday". The Grizzly G0715P hybrid table saw is what I'm leaning toward the most, but the specs say it draws 16 amps when wired as a 110v setup. It also requires a accessory 20 amp circuit breaker to be installed on the tool. If I were to plug this into the existing 15 amp (14 guage wire) outlet that I already have, am I going to run into problems tripping the breaker, or ruining the motor by starving it for power causing it to bog down? Or do I really need to be plugging this into a 20 amp (12 gauge wire) service? I also had someone suggest a power adaptor that converts 110 and 220 power, something similar to what you'd need traveling overseas to run your electric shaver. Not sure if I can buy one of these and run the saw in it's 220 setup off the existing plug?? What other solutions might I look into that would work safely, but not break the bank?
Also, food for thought as a reference....the largest tool I currently run is a Jet 1642EVS lathe. The motor tag list it at 1.5 hp and 18 amps. This has a standard 110v setup on the motor and I run it off a 10' cord with no problems. I understand basic electrical, but I'd really hate to spend $1000 on a new saw only to find out I can't power it up.

[scott spencer]

Marc - I can't offer any help on the electrical issues, other than to point out the obvious... a motor with a lower amp rating has the best chance of success on a 15 amp circuit. That often equates to a bit less power, but GI offers the 50-220R hybrid that sports a 2hp 13/6.5 amp motor. This is an updated version of the former 50-220, which was essentially the same saw as the Woodtek, Craftex, and Sunhill hybrids that feature a dual drive stage that boasts more torque to the blade. It allegedly produces strong cutting power at the blade from a 13 amp motor....given your current electrical limitations, it might be one that's worth a look. It's available with 3 different fence options but I'm not sure what the street price is. Food for thought anyway...

[glenn bradley]

This is what restricted me to a hybrid when I upgraded my saw. In retrospect it was a poor choice as my next purchase was a 220v bandsaw and I added to my electrical anyway. I realized that the tools would be with me for decades and choosing based on a current electrical plant was short sighted . . . in my experience. Ah, experience; poor judgement helps you acquire it and having acquired it you make fewer poor judgements :)

Fortunately at that time the Craftsman 22124 designed and built by Orion was available. With the cost of features like the Beisemeyer Commercial Fence, cast iron wings, Lietz blade, etc. you practically paid for the features and got the rest of the saw for free. There are some good hybrids available today but, I would urge you to learn from my experience and consider modifying your electrical as part of a long term plan. If you plan carefully, you can take a lot of the parts with you to be re-tasked in your new residence.

I also only have 100 amp service and a 50amp breaker feeds my sub panel. Far from ideal it allows me several 110v and 220v circuits. I live alone so no one is using power but me at any given time. Your situation may not make this logical. If you are locked into 110v I think you will find a number of folks will chime in who own hybrids that are currently available. Their insights will serve you better than my comments on a no longer made machine. Good luck and enjoy the ride.

[Dan Friedrichs]

A few points of factual clarification:

220 will not give you "better electrical efficiency". Running at 220 (vs 110) will halve the amps drawn by the same motor. A properly sized 110v circuit will work exactly the same as a 220v circuit.

When you switch an induction motor from 110 to 220, you simply change how the windings are connected - the motor "sees" the same voltage and current either way, so a 110 to 220 transformer won't do anything for you.

You cannot "starve" a motor for power or cause it to bog down by improperly sizing the breaker.


Now onto your question:
I think it seems silly to limit yourself to a hybrid saw just because you don't have the electrical service available. You seem like you're willing to do some wiring yourself (if necessary), so perhaps you should first consider what options you might have available for powering a full-sized cabinet saw. For instance, a 3HP cabinet saw typically requires 220v, 15A service. Do you have two single 110v circuit available in your shop/basement that you could turn into a single 220v circuit? Or, are you absolutely sure the panel can't hold a single additional breaker? There aren't two circuits that could be combined onto a single breaker, leaving you one free space? I would exhaustively investigate ways to get 220v service available before even considering resorting to a hybrid saw...

That said, if you are absolutely sure you can't get 220, you do need a 20A circuit for that hybrid saw to run on 110v. If you don't have a 12ga wire, you can't do it. You'd need to look into replacing the existing 14ga wire with 12ga or larger.

[david brum]

Edit: I see that a bunch of other responses came in while I was typing. In a past house with 100a service, I bought 1/2 breakers for my small breaker box in order to squeeze in more circuits.

You would probably be frustrated by running a 2 hp motor on a 15a circuit. I think your intuition that you'd pop the breaker is right on. What you could do instead is to install a 220V 10a breaker (if there's room in the breaker box) and continue to use your 14g wire. That Grizzly saw only pulls 8 amps at 220v. That should certainly be fine with 14g wire, and you'd get much better performance from your saw. It's a cheap and easy conversion if you feel OK about doing it yourself.

Remember that even though your lathe has a 1.5hp motor and runs on 110v, it has a 3 phase motor and VDF, so it has very different power requirements.

[John TenEyck]

You should be able to install half sized breakers in your box so that you can free up a 220 V breaker space for your saw. If so, your 14 ga wire will be fine and all you'll have to do is put in a 220V receptacle and plug for the saw. A less appealing option, but it would work, would be to buy a 110/220V dry transformer. With it, you also could run your saw at 220V with your 14 ga wiring.

[Marc Myers]

Dave, I see what you are saying. I do have a 15 amp breaker with a 14 ga wire which is the one I'm running off of. If I remove that breaker, install a 220v 10a breaker and even upgrade to a 12ga wire running to the plug (no more than 20') I'd have exactly what I need. I have been so wrapped up in thinking of how to get 16a out of a 15a line that I didn't even think about the amps the saw draws under a 220v line. I will even take a closer look to see if I can find a 220v 15a breaker that would fit in there which would make a 3hp cabinet saw a more viable option. Glen's views on experience are exactly why I use SC for advice. You learn the tricks from others who have been there before. I will take a look this week and see if I can't find the right parts to make this solution work. Thanks for the tip!

[Dan Friedrichs]

Dave, I see what you are saying. I do have a 15 amp breaker with a 14 ga wire which is the one I'm running off of. If I remove that breaker, install a 220v 10a breaker and even upgrade to a 12ga wire running to the plug (no more than 20') I'd have exactly what I need.

If you upgrade to 12ga wire, you can use a 20A breaker. I'm not sure that 10A breakers are common....

[Marc Myers]

I guess it's down to these choices. Remove the 15a breaker that's in the box already and replace it with a 220v 15a 12g setup which would give me enough to run a cabinet saw. If that does not work, try a 220v 10a 12/14g setup to run a hybrid. If that fails, a 110v 20a 12/14g line. I have a basic understanding of electrical, but when I think of 220, I usually think of 20, 30, 40amp breakers. I was so hell bent on trying to get 16a out of a 15a line that I had not considered 220v 10a service. I know enough about it to get it done, just when it comes to what will work and be safe I get a little shaky. Come to think of it, if I'm going through all this trouble, maybe it's time to do some remodeling in the shop and move the saw to a better spot. Plan B is to scrap the new saw idea alltogether, un-retire my 50's Rockwell skill saw, and take up knitting.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Marc, you're getting the ampacities of the different wire gauges incorrect.

12ga = 20A
14ga = 15A
10ga = 30A

(in general, assuming you are using relatively short lengths of copper wire)

If you have space in the box to add a 220v 15a breaker, you can keep the existing 14ga wire. You only need to upgrade it if you go to a 20A breaker. You shouldn't even be considering a 10a breaker - it would be undersized for the 14ga wire you have (there's no safety risk in undersizing the breaker, but you won't be able to use the wire's full capacity - I also think you'll have a really hard time locating a 10a breaker - they aren't common)

[keith jensen]

My Siemens panel has a certain number of slots available for double breakers which puts two 110v breakers in the single width slot. They also make quad breakers, I think that is what they are called, that have two 220v breakers in a double width (same width as a standard single 220v breaker width).

Check the documentation on your panel to see if you can add doubles/quads.

If you do the load calculations according to the NEC, you might find you are over the maximum allowable load. There are some guys on this site with a much better grasp of the NEC codes than me though.

[Joe Angrisani]

Marc....

How many breakers/circuits are going to the shop area now?
How many going to the basement, total?
They are all 15A?
Are the lights and outlets on separate breakers?
Can you easily pull wires from the basement to the panel?

[Tony Bilello]

If you have room in your panel, remove 2 110V 15A breakers and replace with a single 220V 15 am breaker and thats
it.
If you have 220V already in your house - like for example your stove? washer/dryer? AC unit? you can just tap off of it.

If you dont have room in your existiing panel, just get an aux. panel and run 22OV to it from your existing panel with a 15A breaker. There is no major rewiring involved.

[david brum]

I have to agree with Marc. Just replace install a 15amp 220v breaker in your box, reuse your 14g wire, then install a 220 outlet on the other end. Buy a 3 hp cabinet saw, you're done.

Of course, you would then lose access to the 110 box(es) going into your shop. With that in mind, I think your idea of running a new wire is smart. Might as well be 12g as the price isn't much more.

You also need to make room for the 220 breaker in your box. If the box is full, you'll need to find some half or tandem breakers which will allow you to double up some existing 110 circuits in your box, so you can squeeze in the 220 circuit.

If you want your wiring to be temporary/removable and the walls are sheet rocked, you can run prewired, armored cable which clips to the wall. It's fast and easy to deal with. You can also regular wiring in conduit. Try to keep the run as short as possible, within reason.

[John TenEyck]

If you have room in your panel, remove 2 110V 15A breakers and replace with a single 220V 15 am breaker and thats
it.
If you have 220V already in your house - like for example your stove? washer/dryer? AC unit? you can just tap off of it.

If you dont have room in your existiing panel, just get an aux. panel and run 22OV to it from your existing panel with a 15A breaker. There is no major rewiring involved.

While it's tempting to tap off an existing 220V line to a dryer or stove, code does not allow you to do that. Those circuits must be dedicated only.

[Ryan Hellmer]

I wouldn't "tap" off a dryer line, I'd just use it. I built a 25 ft extension cord (8 guage) that plugs into a dryer outlet and I used it to power my tools. If the washer/dryer are in the basement too, just build yourself a nice big extension cord and use that. To this day I still use only 1 220v outlet in my shop and just unplug and plug as I go. Is it a hassle, maybe, is it cheaper than an electrician, absolutely. I'm still pretty amazed by how much use I get out of the mega-extension cord, pretty handy.

Ryan

[scott vroom]

[QUOTE=Dan Friedrichs;1691604]Marc, you're getting the ampacities of the different wire gauges incorrect.

12ga = 20A
14ga = 15A
10ga = 20A


Correction: 10ga = 30A

[scott vroom]

If you have room in your panel, remove 2 110V 15A breakers and replace with a single 220V 15 am breaker and thats
it.

What about the 110V duplex and lighting circuits in the shop that were serviced by the two 15A breakers? Are you suggesting they simply be abandoned?



If you have 220V already in your house - like for example your stove? washer/dryer? AC unit? you can just tap off of it.

Not advisable and probably in violation of your local code. Depending on how you did it, it may also be extremely dangerous (e.g., 220V branch circuit created by piggy backing hot wires onto 2 seperate breakers).



If you dont have room in your existiing panel, just get an aux. panel and run 22OV to it from your existing panel with a 15A breaker. There is no major rewiring involved.

What possible advantage would there be to running a 15A circuit to a shop sub panel?

[Marc Myers]

Ryan, interesting idea. How did you make the cord? Any pics you could pass along. I have a 220 line going to the dryer that would work exactly the same. As for the other suggestions, I appreciate them, but I'm not going to do anything that is against electrical codes. It would cause too much of a hassle when I try to sell the house. It's either going to be the extention cord and a cabinet saw for the time being, or I'm going to replace the 15a with a 20a and upgrade to 12g wire on a hybrid.

[scott vroom]

How long is the 15A/14g wire run from the main panel to the shop? You may be able to get by with the 220V/15A breaker but why push it? If you're going to guardband for safety anywhere in construction, electrical is the place to do it. There's too much at risk to do otherwise.

If you want to do it right and safe, run a new 220V circuit from the main panel to the shop. You don't need to run the wire through the walls; shielded cable and/or surface mounted conduit are fine. If your main panel is full, then you can free up lugs by combining 2 or more circuits onto a single pole breaker (often referred to as "skinnies"). 2 breakers on a pole are common; check your panel's manufacturer to see if they are available for that panel. Assuming you use 2-circuit skinnies, you'll need to remove 4 single pole circuit breakers, freeing up 4 poles on the panel. Install 2 skinnies on 2 poles and reconnect the 4 existing circuits to these. You now have 2 poles left to install a double pole 220V breaker. If it were me, I'd take advantage of the opportunity to run a minimum 40A/8ga circuit to a shop sub panel. From there you could run multiple branch circuits including one or more 20A/12ga moter circuits. Minimum breaker amp and wire guage capacity are specified by the saw or motor manufacturer. Adhere to these specs. Typical 3HP cabinet saw motors are spec'd for 20A/12ga.

[Matt Day]

As other have pointed out - easy solution as long as you have an electric dryer.

I'm in a rental right now so I'm not going to make any permanent changes. I simply unplug the dryer and plug in my 220V supply for my TS and jointer - works like a charm (as long I remember to change it back or I'll hear it from the wife.

[Marc Myers]

I stopped at the big orange place at lunchtime. 10/2 wire is 1.60/ft and the ends are 18 each. For about 90 bucks I can make a 35' extension cord to run off the dryer and power up a 3hp 220v table saw with no problems. 35' allows me to go up to the joist, over to and along the carrying beam, and down to the saw with a bit of extra slack. The cable would be up high off the floor, out of sight and out of mind. And you can bet it's coming with me when I move! Absolutely brilliant idea that involves nothing with the electrical panel. No rewiring, repowering, changing anything, nothing. With this solution, I'm not limited to the hybrids anymore, I can bite the bullet and go for a 3hp cabinet saw! Grizzly CS told me last week they were planning a spring sale. Keep my fingers crossed the 1023 goes on sale...if it does, there will be a shiny new toy for me to set up! I can't thank you guys enough for all the great advice!

[Tom Cornish]

SO cord is rated differently than Romex - you actually need 10/3 for a 30 amp cord - the ground is "counted" in this case as one of the 3, where as with Romex it's not - 10/2 would include the ground. I suspect you had a typo, as I find it hard to believe that Home Depot would carry as strange a cord as 10/2.

[Don Jarvie]

Tom, you would be surprised. The actually sell SO cord 14/2 which is 2 lines. I don't know about the 10g but its probably there.

Sounds like you have a good plan together Marc.

[Matt Day]

Glad we got you fixed up! I'm not going to lie, it's bit of a pain having to plug in your tools in another room. I can't tell you how many times I've been in my basement ready to make a cut, and I've forgotten to turn on the 220! It's not a big deal for the short term though and is a nice solution to your problem. Happy buying!

[Erik Christensen]

I would only get a saw with a magnetic starter if you are going with a remote plug setup - you really don't want the saw to start when you plug it in - that can end up in a bad place real quick

[Marc Myers]

Tom...sharp eye! It was 10/3 cord. 10 ga 3 wires...black white and green. And FWIW, the 690 can go on sale too!

[Ryan Hellmer]

Marc, I see you beat me to the punch. My cord has a standard plug on the male end and I put a metal box at the female end, this has allowed me to change receptacles as my equipment evolves, although just buying a female plug end is just as good and probably less expensive. $90 is a lot to spend on an extension cord, but when you think of how much use it will get and how flexible it will be down the road, it's a pretty good option. Just one thought, if you ever think you'll be running 30 amps off that cord, I'd consider 8 guage wire. Don't know if the price would be prohibitive, but it never hurts to have the capacity. Good luck.

Ryan

[Marc Myers]

I don't think I'll ever be running 30amps, so 10/3 will serve me well. For me, a standard female end to plug into the saw's cord is easy to find.(HBL2623) What appears to be the trouble spot is the male end I need over at the dryer. I have the pre-1996 style end over there. HD and Lowes the male box end, but no female cord ends that match. The ones I'm finding online (HBL9937C) have the right poles, amp rating, but are rated for 2 horsepower? Cabinet saws run on 3HP. I might be reading this wrong, but I've never heard of electrical currents being measured for HP ratings?? I'm trying to spend a bit more with the Hubbell ends as the ones at HD and Lowes look a bit cheap. The electrical supply houses in town are wholesale only so this might be a bit of a challenge. Grainger sells them online but they want 65 bucks a piece for each end! Amazon is a bit more reasonable at 30 each.


Well, I've spent the last hour since the last post scowering the web. What I find is that there are plenty of male and female ends out there that come close to fitting the bill. 125/250 volts, 30 amps, 3 poles, 3 wires but they are all listed as 2 horsepower under the specs for each of them. The male hbl2623 has the right setup to match the cord on a standard cabinet saw, and the hbl9937c and hbl9333 would match what I have at the dryer, but at 2 horse ratings for all of them I don't know how that would work with a 3 horse cabinet saw? I have a feeling I might be overthinking the problem, but at this level of electricity I'd rather be safe than sorry. Mind if I ask exactly what you have on the ends of your 10/3 cord so I can take a look and see if it would work for me? I even called Hubbell customer service and had them pull up the specs and told them what I was trying to do. They told me I couldn't do it and that they had nothing that had a 3 HP rating on a plug end.

[Myk Rian]

I have a 30 amp service to the garage from my 100 amp household box. From there, I have 220 I use for a heater in the winter, my 2hp jointer, and 3hp compressor. Since I don't use them all at the same time, there have been no problems. I can also plug my generator into the panel. The rest of that panel handles the lights, plugs, and garage door.

Just for those that feel the need to chastise me on my setup (as often happens around here), don't bother. It's a good system, and works just fine thank you.

[Dan Friedrichs]

What I find is that there are plenty of male and female ends out there that come close to fitting the bill. 125/250 volts, 30 amps, 3 poles, 3 wires but they are all listed as 2 horsepower under the specs for each of them.

Don't worry about the HP rating. If it's rated for 30A, you're fine.