Raising my son without Video Games

[Paul Steiner]

Lately I have been thinking a lot about rules and policies for raising my son. My mother did not allow me to have toys that she felt were to violent, gi joes, suction cup dart guns, and definitely no BB guns. Looking back I do not feel as though I missed out on anything. I think I am not going to allow my son to have video games or strictly limit video games. Recently I have been thinking about alternatives. Legos, board games, RC cars, sports, scouts. I would be much happier to spend money on that than any video game.

As a high school teacher I come into contact with many students whose main focus is video games. When I say main focus, it is video games above all other activities except eating. Other students can handle the distraction but I do believe that video games are the number 1 contributor to childhood obesity. When I was a kid we would play pick up football games after school. Now kids setup online video games after school.
Bottomline I want my son to be active, I do not want him to be a slave to the magic box. I would really like to hear from other parents how they handle video games and their children. My main question is do you think my son will miss out on anything? Will he be the weird boy in school that does not have video games?

[Craig Coney]

You didn't mention how old you son is. Scouts is definatley a good adventure for any boy and will help build values and character. My wife & I were leaders for the past 4 years, and stepped down when our oldest son crossed over into Boy Scouts.

Ask yourself how will you police your son's activities with video games when he goes to a friends house? Would it be similar to not allowing him to have candy & letting him loose in a candy store without supervision?

We initially didn't allow video games in the house, but then picked up a Wii about 3 years ago. In the three years we've had it, it has maybe 150 hours of use with 3 children playing it. We limit the play time from 45 minutes to an hour when the kids want to play it. Of course their homework needs to be finished before they can play. All of my children are active and would rather go outside and play than sit inside and play the Wii. Academically they are in the upper percentile of their classes. They are all in sports, tall and skinny, so I don't think the Wii has influenced them that much.

Last Fall, my oldest son won a Nintendo DS for selling the most amount of popcorn for Cub Scouts in our Scout district. He opened it to look at it when we got home, and it sat on his desk for 3 months. We ended up giving him a game for his birthday, he didn't ask for a game in that entire time. He also had gift cards he could have purchased games if he desired, but chose Legos instead, so money wasn't the issue.

Has the video game in our house taken over our kids? No. In my opinion, it is your parenting skills, guidance, and the values you teach your children that allows them to make wise choices.

You'll need to decide for yourself what is right for your family.

[Brian Elfert]

I have been a Boy Scout leader for a dozen years now. I see the results of video games and other electronics even amongst Boy Scouts. One scout was extremely overweight. He didn't go to summer camp because he couldn't be away from his computer and video games for a week. We have problems with Scouts particularly older ones bringing cell phones on camping trips. Rules say no electronics, but that doesn't stop most of them.

When I was a Scout in the mid/late 80s the leaders would make us empty our bags in the parking lot and anything prohibited was sent home or confiscated for the week. Electronics were prohibited, but there were not as many electronics then. I don't know that we could get away with that now.

[Dan Hintz]

I see nothing wrong with video games... in moderation. Thirty minutes (after schoolwork and chores are done) once or twice a week is hardly harmful, and it helps build hand-eye coordination skills.

[Dan Friedrichs]

+1 for "moderation". 7 hours a day of legos isn't healthy, either.

Probably the best thing is to make him not want to play video games. Have you considered only owning a very small black and white TV? :)

[Alan Trout]

Paul,

I don't want to sound like I am being a jerk because that is not my intention but coming from the mindset of an outdoorsman I think you missed a lot in your childhood without air rifles and such. Those items with proper instruction are some of the best safety and discipline tools a child could have along with an incredible amount of fun learning and adventure. I think Scouting is a great avenue for a young man to learn and respect others and themselves along with with learning of nature and their communities.

With all this being said I have a 6 year old son that is an only child that came along late in life compared to most parents. My wife and I were both 40 or older when he came along. I see childhood obesity a lot and while I think video games are a contributing factor I also think the diet most parents feed their kids is a bigger factor. We almost only use whole foods in our household and everything is made from scratch whenever possible. There are fast food treats from time to time but is not a staple of any of our diets. My sons is very slim compared to his classmates.

Video games in our house were held off for as long as I felt was appropriate. My son received a Nintendo DSI XL for Christmas from Santa and it is used for both reward and punishment. He may get to play for a half our a day, but when He as not done as he should it is taken away from him. He has learned and accepted that it is a privileged to play. As I type this he is putting together a jigsaw puzzle which I encourage as I feel games like this help with his thinking. He is an excellent student and as long as he does what he has to I have no problem with him playing in moderation.

Parental supervision is key with any activities so the more interest you show in him the better. Good luck and have fun in your parental journey. There is nothing as rewarding or frustrating all at the same time. Of course being a teacher you have most of the skills but it is different when its your own kid.

Alan

[Christian Castillo]

Everything in moderation. I'm still a young guy in my mid 20s, so it wasn't too long ago that I was into video gaming. Much social interaction and conversation with his peers will involve gaming at this stage in his life. As time progresses, social interaction will involve gaming far more than before and rapidly, it went from video game sleepovers in the late 90s, to lan party and online gaming by the time I was in college four years ago. About the weird boy comment, no, it won't be taken that far, but he will definitely feel like he is missing out on something. I like what the above poster said regarding using gaming as a privilege. One must remember that graphic novels and comic books were considered a huge waste of time when they were introduced, every generation goes through this.

[Paul Steiner]

My son is 3. I know he is young but other kids in our neighborhood started playing video games at 4. Christian brings up a good point as far as the gaming technology and the social aspect. As a high school teacher I will leave before my son wakes up for school, but I will always be home after school. So I will be there to moderate everything. I think like Alan I too will have to hold off on video games for as long as possible and moderate. I realize my problem is that I am 30 and I enjoyed video games as a kid, now I feel that they are a monumental waste of time. I feel this way not about children playing these games but young men playing these games. I have students that are expert video gamers and failing all their classes. In my neighborhood there are husbands that can not fix a toliet but are expert video gamers.
To refine my question whats your advice on making well rounded adults?

[John Fabre]

My kids 10, 7 and 3 years old are only allowed two hours of video games on weekends, sitting six feet from the TV. Playing with Hotwheels, drawing, Legos and reading throughout the week is standard. Playing sports, Woodturning, metal detecting and watching the Science and History channels is also in the mix.

[Larry Frank]

This is an interesting thread and I am thrilled to hear that there are parents working at trying to figure out the best way to raise their children. It is amazing as some or a lot of parents just let it happen and the results are sometimes not too good.

There are several good comments in this thread and I think that video games in moderation makes the most sense. If a child is not allowed to play, then he will not be a part of the conversation with some of his peers. In addition, the familiarity with video games and computers is probably a good thing as the computers.

I think guide a child in the best direction is a great thing but making rules such as no video games may at some point result in some backlash from the child especially as they reach the teen years.

I am very fortunate as all three of my children became adults without any major hysterics. Some of our rules for the children where not meet with a lot of enthusiasm and we had to modify them at times. But all three are grown up, they have good jobs and the most important part is that they are happy. I am blessed!

[Darius Ferlas]

The fact that you followed your mom's whishes to the letter doesn't mean your son will follow yours. If your son decides he wants to play video games he'll find a way.
If only paenting was as easy as to setting up rules.

So... my take is - just join in and have fun however boring thee things are. Many are very boring but spending your time with your son will make it much easier for you to control how much of it spent on those games and to imprint the idea that a video game is just a short, and in the long pretty insignifficant activity. Unless, of course, your son eventually becomes interested in computer/software engineering, or some exciting branch of math... oh let's say the game theory, or calculus.

[Rick Prosser]

Whether it is video games, or music, or hairstyle, or ...

The key is parental supervision and involvement. Setting parameters and being involved will give the best chance of a good outcome - but there are no guarantees.

My son was very much into video games. It was his passion and he spent as much time as he could playing. We set some rules (I am sure they were bent sometimes), but it drove him to do well in school so that he could become a video game programmer. He wrote a few games while in High School. He got his Masters in computer engineering and works as a test equipment programmer. He still spends a lot of his free time with computer games.

My daughter also enjoys video games, and plays a lot - but is a more casual player and has no interest in programming. She is more into music.

One thing we do as a family activity when we all get together is talk about, and play video games. My wife has never had an interest in video games, and sometimes feels out of place when the discussion turns to video games, but she hangs in there and gets involved as she can.

Anybody tried Portal 2 yet?:D

[John Fabre]

Anybody tried Portal 2 yet?:D
Not yet, maybe the easter bunny will bring it to my boys.

[Dennis Peacock]

I can tell you from personal experience that a youth unregulated will LIVE video games instead of being involved with family, friends, school, and chores. My youngest son bought his own Xbox 360 with my approval and I have taken it away from him because of his lack of respect, gratitude, and lack of school work and little to no family involvement. It's like taking away television....my kids were disrespectful and such with tv and 1 month after I took tv away they were respectful, productive, and much better behaved. The Xbox has been taken for over 1 month now and the recognized behavior improvement is markedly BETTER than ever.

The Key....is....parental involvement on a daily basis....you kids want YOU more than they want some video game. At the heart of every child is a person that wants and strongly desires acceptance, love, friendship, and a parent that is involved in their lives.

[Russ Filtz]

Video games have been proven to increase intelligence, problem solving skills, etc. So cutting them out entirely is unwise. I'm sure when I grew up (60's), parents probably said the same thing about comic books and cartoons on TV. You don't want your kids to be the oddballs at school with no TV or video games to talk about. They'll be bullied.

[Eric DeSilva]

I'd be interested in seeing a citation for the proposition that video games are "proven" to increase intelligence. As a video game player--arrested development or something--I find that very counter-intuitive, especially as compared to playing with something like LEGO.

In fact, my thirty seconds of googling found me the following: Gentile, Lynch, Linder & Walsh (2004, p.6): The authors also stated that teens who play violent video games for extended periods of time:

Tend to be more aggressive
Are more prone to confrontation with their teachers
May engage in fights with their peers
See a decline in school achievements.

Video game designers spend an inordinate amount of money trying to create a immersive, addictive atmosphere. Even though I'm an adult and theoretically have better judgment, I still find that it can be difficult leaving a video game--"I just want to finish this section" or "I just want to see what the beginning of the next section looks like." I will also state unconditionally that after playing video games for a period, you *cannot* simply transition to bed. Video games tend to increase your stress level and trying to sleep for a period afterwards simply doesn't work. So if you do let your kids play, set a timer, and make sure you leave a substantial gap between video games and bedtime.

[Paul McGaha]

Just my $.02 but I think video games are ok in moderation. Especially some of them like the dance games on the Wi system.

My wife bought a copy of that last Christmas for the grandkids and it has been a huge hit at family get togethers.

This opinion is for my house only but I've never been a fan of any of the violent games. Wont allow them in my house.

PHM

[Darius Ferlas]

I'd be interested in seeing a citation for the proposition that video games are "proven" to increase intelligence.
Here (http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=57695) you go.

[Eric DeSilva]

I probably should have been more specific--that study is about *adults*, not kids. Try this: http://www.kff.org/entmedia/loader.cfm?url=/commonspot/security/getfile.cfm&PageID=14092

[Matt Walton]

In fact, my thirty seconds of googling found me the following: Gentile, Lynch, Linder & Walsh (2004, p.6): The authors also stated that teens who play violent video games for extended periods of time:

Tend to be more aggressive
Are more prone to confrontation with their teachers
May engage in fights with their peers
See a decline in school achievements.

Video game designers spend an inordinate amount of money trying to create a immersive, addictive atmosphere. Even though I'm an adult and theoretically have better judgment, I still find that it can be difficult leaving a video game--"I just want to finish this section" or "I just want to see what the beginning of the next section looks like." I will also state unconditionally that after playing video games for a period, you *cannot* simply transition to bed. Video games tend to increase your stress level and trying to sleep for a period afterwards simply doesn't work. So if you do let your kids play, set a timer, and make sure you leave a substantial gap between video games and bedtime.

This is something that I take issue with. I admit that I have no proof to back this up, but I have a theory that playing violent games, up to a point, could actually help with violence, because in my mind, it helps expel pent up anger by "killing" people, with no real side effect.

And yes Rick, I did get Portal two, and it's awesome!
Anyways, I don't do enough late night gaming to have an opinion on your last point, but the "computer room" is right across from my parent's bedroom, and I have a fairly noisy keyboard, so there isn't a whole lot of typing until my dad tells me to go up.
That brings me to an idea Paul, depending on whether you are thinking about console games or computer games, you can just have a computer in the family room, to limit his time locked away in his room, or if you are thinking about a console system (Nintendo Wii, Microsoft Xbox 360, Sony PS3), have it set up on the big TV in the main room. This in my opinion would solve a couple of problems. 1. You might be able to turn it into a slightly "family time" to where you could at least spend some time together, and 2. You can monitor what they are doing, and how long they are doing it.

Anyways, just some of my thoughts.

[Eric DeSilva]

I should clarify. The universe of what constitutes a game is pretty broad. There are programs for kids with learning disabilities on the iPad that essentially are games, but with some educational underpinning. I also don't think, if managed properly, that video games are necessarily *bad* for your kids, depending upon the game and depending upon the amount of time they play.

What I take issue with is the point that Russ appeared to make that--on a relatively unqualified basis--video gaming is a net good for your kids and that not allowing your kids to play is unwise. For anyone that thinks they are doing *good* things for their kids by giving them access to video games, I urge you to talk to your kids' teachers and pediatricians, and do a lot more research.

[Dave Lehnert]

My nephews grew up on pop, VHS movies and born with a video game controller in their hands.
One just finished college and does computers for one of the largest retailers in the country. Starting pay double what I ever hope to make in my lifetime. The other is in his last year of Law School. College paid 100% on a academic scholarship.

I don't think video games and such are the reason for failure. They went to a very good catholic school. That was their key to success.

[Steve Griffin]

I'm enjoying this discussion quite a bit, as I'm still forming opinions on how to manage vid games. Thanks guys for your posts.

I do agree with the poster which suggests kids have natural aggressive energy, and venting that with "pretend" killing may release that in a healthy way.

I know as kids in the 70's we were well armed with BB guns, holstered cowboy pop guns, slingshots, plastic swords and spears. We regularly slaughtered small brigades of army men. But unlike video games which are so real and graphic, our childhood operated in the realm of imagination and actual physical activity. None of us grew up to be criminals, lazy or overweight.

I'd like to imagine we can fill our sons childhood with enough cool stuff to do--skiing,sports, scouts, music etc that he naturally doesn't want to spend all day video gaming. But we need a plan in case I'm wrong....

-STeve

[Aleks Hunter]

My daughter is graduating this June, and will enroll in an excellent University in the fall. Moderation and consistency is the real key. She got an X-box when they first came out, but we kept the discs. She had access to them much like a rental system, after homework and chores were done. The old carrot onthe end of the stick (the stick is jsut to hold the carrot, not, as some believe, to beat with!) When she hit high school we got her a macbook and proptly loaded it with net nany.

We have several acres of lawn here and she is very well versed with vaccuum cleaners, barn cleaning, lawn mowers, hedge trimmers and weed whackers, thanks to Vermont climate she knows more than she thinks anyone should know about the workings of a snow shovel. We made sure that she took a couple of semesters of wood shop, and she built some very nice furniture,and learned to like building things. She played soccer four years and ran track, kept busy skiing, hiking, running and bicycling, and she is almost never sick. A few hours of video then computer gaming didn't hurt her at all. We even bonded playing some together. Be sensible, be moderate in everything and be consistent.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

I view this with mixed emotions Paul. Certainly many video games are inappropriate and of no value. There are others that promote critical thinking and eye-hand coordination. Close scrutiny in selection of the games is critical. I also feel that your list of worthwhile activities is a good one. If it is available in your area, I would add 4H clubs to the list of activities.

[Bryan Morgan]

This is indeed an interesting thread. I feel kind of obligated to weigh in on this a little... I was raised with legos, RC things (cars, helicopters, airplanes, boards, homebuilt "things"), computers, sports (well, surfing and martial arts), scouts, and..... lots of video games. Today, I'm fairly successful working in computers and networking. I bought my first house when I was 18 so I guess I'm doing ok.

There are a few things I attribute to what I've done...

LEGOs - hands on, great for problem solving and putting thought to 3D reality. Great toys.
Montessori school - my first years in school were here. I was allowed to learn very quickly and had very smart teachers that shoveled the knowledge in. Public school after this was nothing but a waste of time and disappointment.
R/C stuff - like legos, hands on plus basic electronics and 3D spacial awareness.
Pen and paper RPGs - great for creative problem solving, communication, language skills, building imagination
Video games - just think about it... problem solving, hand eye coordination... I had a computer and I always wanted to play the latest games... that forced me to learn all about the guts of the computer, how to hack things, network to play with friends, programming, etc. All to play the latest games. I got my first modem in the 80's not to talk to people, but to search out the latest games and download them... and play in MUDs and DOORs. I ran my own BBSs to run and talk about games. Today I still play a lot of video games. Great social tool - my friends and I get together once a month or so and pile into someones house with our computers and nerd out for a whole day. Killing, cussing, eating, yelling, cheating, just a great time with the guys. For someone like me, computers and technology are just second nature... which I can trace back to my love of video games.

Now, every person is different of course, but I do not associate these video games with reality. We play all the latest shooters with the "realistic" weapons and violence. Perhaps its because I grew up playing these, but that violence is almost not noticeable. You can say I've been desensitized to it, but I disagree. I have been desensitized to video game violence and focus on the problem solving aspect rather than the violence aspect. Violence in the real world is entirely different and very real. I own enough firearms to supply a small army, yet I have had no desire to shoot anyone. I have seen people shot and killed right in front of me and it was very real and very scary, I was not desensitized to it at all.

I was watching a show awhile back about this great brain surgeon. He makes his doctors play Xbox all the time to keep their hand eye coordination in good shape.

Heres a great article about a guy who lets his 4 year old play GTA: http://bitmob.com/articles/my-four-year-old-son-plays-grand-theft-auto

Basically it says that if the kid doesn't have evil in him to begin with he isn't going to do evil things in the game. I see a lot of news articles and their hyperbole about kids who supposedly learned how to steal or kill from some video game, but anyone with half a brain can see the kids aren't exactly in a great environment to begin with and have parents (or a single parent) who aren't exactly pillars of the community. Video games (like rock n' roll, comic books, playboys, etc) are just modern excuses for parents who don't want to do their jobs.

I don't want to tell you how to raise your kids as everyones' household is different, I'd just throw it out there that video games aren't as bad as many of the busy bodies make them out to be. If you are worrying about him getting fat, realize that there is a cool device with pedals on it that keeps the monitor on as long as you are pedaling. :) I like to cruise on the recumbent bike if I'm playing the xbox in the front room.

[Bryan Morgan]

I view this with mixed emotions Paul. Certainly many video games are inappropriate and of no value. There are others that promote critical thinking and eye-hand coordination. Close scrutiny in selection of the games is critical. I also feel that your list of worthwhile activities is a good one. If it is available in your area, I would add 4H clubs to the list of activities.

What video game is "inappropriate and of no value"?

Please don't use the Grand Theft Auto as an example... Not only does it have your standard hand eye coordination thing going for it, it has time keeping, keeping multiple missions in line concurrently, critical thinking, problem solving in a 3D environment, physics and perception while problem solving (similar to Portal though not as in depth). Sure, the media loves to point out that you can kill hookers... The hyperbole around this game is astounding.

"Inappropriate" is subjective but I can find value is pretty much every video game I've ever played... even the ones I've hated.

[curtis rosche]

from a kids point of veiw,, i was raised without any video games at my moms house, and some but very few games at my dads house with no internet access meaning no linking games and playing other people. you said no guns? then scouts is out. he will want a bb gun or a twenty two or to hunt. scouts and summercamp shooting and hunting go hand in hand.

as for a limit on video games,,, i would say not letting him play at home would be fine... but let him play at his friends houses.. then he wont be around video games all day, but he wont be out of the loop for the few hours a week at a friends house.

this is pretty much how i got by.. banning completely is bad, but limited access is ok. i also was not allowed to watch tv at all on a school night and only in the morning hours and night hours on the weekends. this kept me active but kept me out of the loop when a teacher referenced a tv show that is on during the week or when everyone in class talked about it. being in college it doesnt seem to have any affect now, but in grade school it sure seemed to, never knowing what people were talking about a show.. the point of telling you that is limits are good, but dont do it too much. if you limit too much his friends will also see you as the mean parents and never ever want to come hang around your house.

hope this helps

[Bryan Morgan]

this is pretty much how i got by.. banning completely is bad, but limited access is ok.

Banning things is not just bad but dangerous. Any parent who sticks their heads in the sand and doesn't educate their kids about things they will encounter in life is just asking for trouble. Doesn't matter if you like guns or not, chances are your kid will encounter one some time. If they know how to be safe around one you are less likely to wind up at a morgue to identify your ignorant dead child. Educating them about drugs and booze makes you less likely to pick them up from jail or a hospital. My mother was very big on education and lessons by experience. I learned I didn't ever want to smoke after she handed me a cigarette when I was 8 or 9. I thought it was funny and cool until I turned green and thought I was going to die. Never smoked. I learned about electricity after she told me not to stick something into a socket and I did it anyway and shocked the heck out of myself. She just said "you're not going to do that again are you?" I learned about firearms by basically being told to point it that way and pull the trigger. The loud noise and instantaneous hole and the explanation and realization that it was real, lethal, and there was no reset button was very enlightening.

Same with video games. You can have them in your environment on your terms or it will be experienced elsewhere out of your control... And as we all know, as soon as you ban something what is the thing any kid (or adult for that matter) wants most? Remembering the kids growing up, it seemed the ultra religious and strict parents had the most evil and unruly children, getting into all kinds of trouble and doing bad things.

[Seth Dolcourt]

My mother denied me an Atari 2600 (that was a loooong time ago!) I still played plenty over at my buddy's house, which solved the problem (in my mother's eyes) by relocating the problem. My mother also denied me Little League baseball, but I still played ball with my friends; I liked baseball. This was back in the day when a kid could ride his bike to the park un-supervised and Child Protective Services would not be called to investigate.

With my son, I fought the fight with PlayStation2 (lost, his auntie bought him one), 2 Nintendo products (some little thing and a DS, no Wii) PlayStation PSP (again, wealthy auntie bought it) and maybe one or two things. Sure, I could have raised a mighty stink, but better to adapt and overcome. Yes, he earned groundings from the games many times. Equally, good school performance earned him games. At $50 a pop, not too many.

The biggest game addiction had nothing to do with the console systems. He found this thing online called Kuma War, and though he was decidedly good at it, at some point I called it "wasting life" and banned him permanently from it.

Pokemon and Yu-gi-oh was another addiction of his (card games) and while it was great for interacting non-electronically with 3 other kids...do you know how much those stinkin' cards cost?!? Major money. And the kids trade the cards at school, so now you have the prospect of your money buying the cards and somehow the value of that purchase disappearing unsupervised during recess.

So what to do? Come to grips that your boy will game over at his friend's house. Which means his friends won't ever come to your house because you don't have a gaming system. Is that good? Not entirely. It means you don't get to suss out who his friends are. The greatest weapon of parenting is to invite your kid's friends to your house, be a charming host, and Vulcan mind-meld on their personalities to see who is gonna be trouble.

Additionally, whether athletics, scouting, martial arts or music (yay, music!), fill their schedule with other non-game things. That means, though, you have to be committed to their cause, by driving them to and from, and supporting financially.

Else....pew! Pew! Pew, pew, pew! Boooooooosh!

[Jim Koepke]

My son played a lot less video games when we made him buy his own batteries and work for the money.

When he was young, there were video games for the Macintosh that taught touch typing, math and history in a video game format.

We let him play those all he wanted.

jtk

[Scott Donley]

I agree ! My daughter really liked Mario Does typing. The math game, not as much, geography and history ones also got played a lot. I had no expectations that she would not get the others at friends homes (same with tv and movies) but she always new what I felt was right.
My son played a lot less video games when we made him buy his own batteries and work for the money.

When he was young, there were video games for the Macintosh that taught touch typing, math and history in a video game format.

We let him play those all he wanted.

jtk

[Orion Henderson]

Banning completely can create the forbidden fruit. I'm not much for that. I was very restricted as a child in similar ways and all I wanted to do was go to friends houses and play violent games. Fortunately I survived to become a relatively normal adult. -insert some goofy face here-

My son is nearly 6 and has expressed no interest in games, but I am sure his day is coming soon. All things in moderation. In his case, he is an extremely explosive child, which he is getting help for. Learning to solve problems in games won't be such a bad thing and may actually help. Other kids with his issues actually benefit from some gaming. Games are not all bad by a long shot. I was never allowed bb guns or anything like that, yet I am an avid outdoorsman in my own way. I don't hunt or fish, but I am in the woods on a bike or on foot every chance I get. I don't think limiting those limits the outdoors at all. That said, I don't have a problem with guns either.

[Rich Engelhardt]

What video game is "inappropriate and of no value"?
IMHO - any and all - w/the lone exception of Gorilla Basic... and possibly Solitair (for Windows users)....
Moving on along the road of life,,,,,anything but a few select Video Poker (the slot machine type) games.

& yes - I'm 100% serious....

It's all 0's and 1's. Nothing but 0's and 1's. Little electrons bumping into each other.

As a past avid "gamer"....the moment I found out what made computer's tick (when I went to school to learn electroincs @ the tender age of 38), I lost every bit of interest I had in playing computer games.
Yes - I would still run a few games,,,but,,only to admire the graphics & for diagnostic purposes.
"Games" really stress a computer in a "real life" scenerio. I've had hundreds of PC's pass all the routine diagnostics, then lock up running some silly game in it's demo mode.


Re: Scouts.....don't get me started....
Let's just say that it's not the same thing it used to be and leave it at that.
Personally, I'm rather happy my grandson's interest in scouting is on the decline.
IMHO - it's doing as much to turn his brain into jelly as TV and computer games.

[Don Alexander]

theres way too much emphasis in this ole world on "stuff" .................... "stuff" is not the cause of anything , but it most definitely can be an indicator or a result

kids need parental involvement period! no matter what activity they are involved in the problem lies in parents using TV, video games or anything else you can think of to "keep the kids out of their hair" it matters not what activity you allow them if you detach yourself from their activities excessively the message that gets sent way too often is that they are an inconvenience to be distracted/entertained as much as possible in order to keep them out of your way simply put kids need parents to actively be parents pretty much anyone can have kids being a "parent" requires a heckuvalot of time, effort and care and the rewards of putting in the effort are priceless the results of not putting in the effort are disastrous

thats probably a bit oversimplified and nothing in this world is perfect good input does not guarantee good results just as i suppose that you could find a few examples of bad input not resulting in bad results but it doesn't really take a genius to figure out that the likelihood of good results is greatly enhanced by good input and the likelihood of bad results is greatly increased by bad input ....very little input or no input at all would qualify as bad IMO

[Ruhi Arslan]

... but I have a theory that playing violent games, up to a point, could actually help with violence, because in my mind, it helps expel pent up anger by "killing" people, with no real side effect.

That is some scary "theory" you've got there.

When one of the earliest studies published quite a few years ago in, suggesting that there is a link between the number of hours spent playing games revolving around various forms of violence, I made the mistake if mentioning it to one of neighbor friends whose teenage son spends 10-12 hours during the weekdays, and around the clock during the weekends, mother got so upset with me. Therefore, I'll keep my "opinion" to myself and share a summary of various studies in regards the matter. It is a Science Brief published by American Psychological Association.


Violent Video Games: Myths, Facts, and Unanswered Questions Studies provide converging evidence that exposure to media violence is a significant risk factor for aggressive and violent behavior.
By Craig A. Anderson, PhD (http://search.apa.org/search?query=&facet=allcontributors:Anderson,%20Craig%20A.)
After 40+ years of research, one might think that debate about media violence effects would be over. An historical examination of the research reveals that debate concerning whether such exposure is a significant risk factor for aggressive and violent behavior should have been over years ago (Bushman & Anderson, 2001). Four types of media violence studies provide converging evidence of such effects: laboratory experiments, field experiments, cross-sectional correlation studies, and longitudinal studies (Anderson & Bushman, 2002a; Bushman & Huesmann, 2000). But the development of a new genre-electronic video games-reinvigorated the debate.
Two features of video games fuel renewed interest by researchers, public policy makers, and the general public. First, the active role required by video games is a double-edged sword. It helps educational video games be excellent teaching tools for motivational and learning process reasons. But, it also may make violent video games even more hazardous than violent television or cinema. Second, the arrival of a new generation of ultraviolent video games beginning in the early 1990s and continuing unabated to the present resulted in large numbers of children and youths actively participating in entertainment violence that went way beyond anything available to them on television or in movies. Recent video games reward players for killing innocent bystanders, police, and prostitutes, using a wide range of weapons including guns, knives, flame throwers, swords, baseball bats, cars, hands, and feet. Some include cut scenes (i.e., brief movie clips supposedly designed to move the story forward) of strippers. In some, the player assumes the role of hero, whereas in others the player is a criminal.
The new debate frequently generates more heat than light. Many criticisms are simply recycled myths from earlier media violence debates, myths that have been repeatedly debunked on theoretical and empirical grounds. Valid weaknesses have also been identified (and often corrected) by media violence researchers themselves. Although the violent video game literature is still relatively new and small, we have learned a lot about their effects and have successfully answered several key questions. So, what is myth and what do we know?
Myths and Facts
Myth 1. Violent video game research has yielded very mixed results.
Facts: Some studies have yielded nonsignificant video game effects, just as some smoking studies failed to find a significant link to lung cancer. But when one combines all relevant empirical studies using meta-analytic techniques, five separate effects emerge with considerable consistency. Violent video games are significantly associated with: increased aggressive behavior, thoughts, and affect; increased physiological arousal; and decreased prosocial (helping) behavior. Average effect sizes for experimental studies (which help establish causality) and correlational studies (which allow examination of serious violent behavior) appear comparable (Anderson & Bushman, 2001).
Myth 2. The studies that find significant effects are the weakest methodologically.
Facts: Methodologically stronger studies have yielded the largest effects (Anderson, in press). Thus, earlier effect size estimates -based on all video game studies- probably underestimate the actual effect sizes.
Myth 3. Laboratory experiments are irrelevant (trivial measures, demand characteristics, lack external validity).
Facts: Arguments against laboratory experiments in behavioral sciences have been successfully debunked many times by numerous researchers over the years. Specific examinations of such issues in the aggression domain have consistently found evidence of high external validity. For example, variables known to influence real world aggression and violence have the same effects on laboratory measures of aggression (Anderson & Bushman, 1997).
Myth 4. Field experiments are irrelevant (aggression measures based either on direct imitation of video game behaviors (e.g., karate kicks) or are normal play behaviors.
Facts: Some field experiments have used behaviors such as biting, pinching, hitting, pushing, and pulling hair, behaviors that were not modeled in the game. The fact that these aggressive behaviors occur in natural environments does not make them "normal" play behavior, but it does increase the face validity (and some would argue the external validity) of the measures.
Myth 5. Correlational studies are irrelevant.
Facts: The overly simplistic mantra, "Correlation is not causation," is useful when teaching introductory students the risks in too-readily drawing causal conclusions from a simple empirical correlation between two measured variables. However, correlational studies are routinely used in modern science to test theories that are inherently causal. Whole scientific fields are based on correlational data (e.g., astronomy). Well conducted correlational studies provide opportunities for theory falsification. They allow examination of serious acts of aggression that would be unethical to study in experimental contexts. They allow for statistical controls of plausible alternative explanations.
Myth 6. There are no studies linking violent video game play to serious aggression.
Facts: High levels of violent video game exposure have been linked to delinquency, fighting at school and during free play periods, and violent criminal behavior (e.g., self-reported assault, robbery).
Myth 7. Violent video games affect only a small fraction of players.
Facts: Though there are good theoretical reasons to expect some populations to be more susceptible to violent video game effects than others, the research literature has not yet substantiated this. That is, there is not consistent evidence for the claim that younger children are more negatively affected than adolescents or young adults or that males are more affected than females. There is some evidence that highly aggressive individuals are more affected than nonaggressive individuals, but this finding does not consistently occur. Even nonaggressive individuals are consistently affected by brief exposures. Further research will likely find some significant moderators of violent video game effects, because the much larger research literature on television violence has found such effects and the underlying processes are the same. However, even that larger literature has not identified a sizeable population that is totally immune to negative effects of media violence.
Myth 8. Unrealistic video game violence is completely safe for adolescents and older youths.
Facts: Cartoonish and fantasy violence is often perceived (incorrectly) by parents and public policy makers as safe even for children. However, experimental studies with college students have consistently found increased aggression after exposure to clearly unrealistic and fantasy violent video games. Indeed, at least one recent study found significant increases in aggression by college students after playing E-rated (suitable for everyone) violent video games.
Myth 9. The effects of violent video games are trivially small.
Facts: Meta-analyses reveal that violent video game effect sizes are larger than the effect of second hand tobacco smoke on lung cancer, the effect of lead exposure to I.Q. scores in children, and calcium intake on bone mass. Furthermore, the fact that so many youths are exposed to such high levels of video game violence further increases the societal costs of this risk factor (Rosenthal, 1986).
Myth 10. Arousal, not violent content, accounts for video game induced increases in aggression.
Facts: Arousal cannot explain the results of most correlational studies because the measured aggression did not occur immediately after the violent video games were played. Furthermore, several experimental studies have controlled potential arousal effects, and still yielded more aggression by those who played the violent game.
Myth 11. If violent video games cause increases in aggression, violent crime rates in the U.S. would be increasing instead of decreasing.
Facts: Three assumptions must all be true for this myth to be valid: (a) exposure to violent media (including video games) is increasing; (b) youth violent crime rates are decreasing; (c) video game violence is the only (or the primary) factor contributing to societal violence. The first assumption is probably true. The second is not true, as reported by the 2001 Report of the Surgeon General on Youth Violence (Figure 2-7, p. 25). The third is clearly untrue. Media violence is only one of many factors that contribute to societal violence and is certainly not the most important one. Media violence researchers have repeatedly noted this.
Theory

One frequently overlooked factor in this debate is the role of scientific theory. Pure empirical facts often have relatively little meaning and are seldom convincing. When those same facts fit a broader theory, especially one that has been tested in other contexts, those facts become more understandable and convincing. Recent years have seen considerable progress in basic theoretical models of human aggression (for recent integrations see Anderson & Bushman, 2002b; Anderson & Huesmann, in press; Anderson & Carnagey, in press).
Most such models take a social cognitive view of human aggression, integrating social learning theory, advances in cognitive psychology, script theory, developmental theories, and biological influences. Using such general models, media violence scholars now have a clear picture of how media violence increases aggression in short and long term contexts. Immediately after exposure to media violence, there is an increase in aggressive behavior tendencies because of several factors. 1. Aggressive thoughts increase, which in turn increase the likelihood that a mild or ambiguous provocation will be interpreted in a hostile fashion. 2. Aggressive affect increases. 3. General arousal (e.g., heart rate) increases, which tends to increase the dominant behavioral tendency. 4. Direct imitation of recently observed aggressive behaviors sometimes occurs.
Repeated media violence exposure increases aggression across the lifespan because of several related factors. 1. It creates more positive attitudes, beliefs, and expectations regarding use of aggressive solutions. 2. It creates aggressive behavioral scripts and makes them more cognitively accessible. 3. It decreases the accessibility of nonviolent scripts. 4. It decreases the normal negative emotional reactions to conflict, aggression, and violence.
Unanswered Questions

Several major gaps remain in the violent video game literature. One especially large gap is the lack of longitudinal studies testing the link between habitual violent video game exposure and later aggression, while controlling for earlier levels of aggression and other risk factors. Indeed, of the four major types of empirical studies mentioned earlier, this is the only type missing. There are such studies focusing on television violence but none on video games.
Another gap concerns potential differences in effect sizes of television versus video game violence. There are theoretical reasons to believe that violent video game effects may prove larger, primarily because of the active and repetitive learning aspects of video games. However, this is a very difficult question to investigate, especially with experimental designs. How does one select violent video game and television stimuli that are matched on other dimensions? On what dimensions should they be equivalent? Number of bodies? Amount of blood and gore? Realism of the images? There are a couple of unpublished correlational studies that have compared the effects of television and video game violence on aggression, using comparable measures of violence exposure. Both yielded results suggesting a larger effect of video game violence. But the issue is not settled.
Finally, more research is needed to: (a) refine emerging general models of human aggression; (b) delineate the processes underlying short and long term media violence effects; (c) broaden these models to encompass aggression at the level of subcultures and nations. Several different research groups around the world are working on these various issues.

References

Anderson, C.A. (in press). An Update on the Effects of Violent Video Games. Journal of Adolescence.

Anderson, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (1997). External validity of "trivial" experiments: The case of laboratory aggression. Review of General Psychology, 1, 19-41.

Anderson, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (2001). Effects of violent video games on aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, aggressive affect, physiological arousal, and prosocial behavior: A meta-analytic review of the scientific literature. Psychological Science, 12, 353-359.

Anderson, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (2002a). The effects of media violence on society. Science, 295, 2377-2378.

Anderson, C.A., & Bushman, B.J. (2002b). Human Aggression. Annual Review of Psychology, 53, 27-51.

Anderson, C.A., & Carnagey, N.L. (in press). Violent evil and the general aggression model. Chapter to appear in A. Miller (Ed.) The Social Psychology of Good and Evil. New York: Guilford Publications.

Anderson, C.A., & Huesmann, L.R. (in press). Human Aggression: A Social-Cognitive View. Chapter to appear in M.A. Hogg & J. Cooper (Eds.), Handbook of Social Psychology. London: Sage Publications.

Bushman, B.J., & Anderson, C.A. (2001). Media violence and the American public: Scientific facts versus media misinformation. American Psychologist, 56, 477-489.

Bushman, B. J., & Huesmann, L. R. (2000). Effects of televised violence on aggression. In D. Singer & J. Singer (Eds.). Handbook of children and the media (pp. 223-254). Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage Publications.

Rosenthal, R. (1986). Media violence, antisocial behavior, and the social consequences of small effects. Journal of Social Issues, 42, 141-154.

[Joe Chritz]

All things in moderation.

Col. Dave Grossman (who I just saw speak Tuesday) wrote a book about video games and the increase in crime numbers and violence. There are some very good points and the science is sound. Ultimately allowing a child to do anything anytime without guidance is going to be a problem. Blaming video games is like blaming alcohol for drunk driving deaths.

The basics are the same as used to train troops for combat. Once upon a time we had a firing rate (not hitting but actually shooting) of about 20% in combat. That was increased well over 4x when we got to Vietnam. Almost exclusively through the use of classical and operant conditioning. The vast majority of people (kids, young adults and adults) can handle the difference well. Take out any guidance and it falls apart.

As in most things an extreme answer on either side is usually wrong.

RUHI: If you haven't read Col. Grossman's books I highly recommend them.

Joe

[Bryan Morgan]

All things in moderation.

Col. Dave Grossman (who I just saw speak Tuesday) wrote a book about video games and the increase in crime numbers and violence.

I'm not sure I'll read his books but I'm interested in what he says about crime rates.... every statistic I've seen in the last few years has showed a 10 year decline in crime and violence... Is he seeing something different than government statistics or does he agree with them?

[Russ Filtz]

That is some scary "theory" you've got there.

When one of the earliest studies published quite a few years ago in, suggesting that there is a link between the number of hours spent playing games revolving around various forms of violence, I made the mistake if mentioning it to one of neighbor friends whose teenage son spends 10-12 hours during the weekdays, and around the clock during the weekends, mother got so upset with me. Therefore, I'll keep my "opinion" to myself and share a summary of various studies in regards the matter. It is a Science Brief published by American Psychological Association.

I'd also be leery of the 'studies' you mentioned. most of your references are from the same authors. Possible slants to their thinking? Plus they all seem to be 10+
yrs old. Here are some newer links.

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/impact/myths.html


This is NO DIFFERENT than parents up in arms about rock& roll music in the '50's, "hippies" in '60's, rap music, heavy metal, punk rock, etc., etc., etc. If ALL these things ever did anything CLOSE to what people claimed at the time, everyone would be dead by now. Video Games are just the newest thing to cry wolf over. Chill out everyone, gamers will not become serial killers. Any more so than violent sports players, returning soldiers from war zones, crime novel fans, or slasher movie fans. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Russ Filtz]

I'm not sure I'll read his books but I'm interested in what he says about crime rates.... every statistic I've seen in the last few years has showed a 10 year decline in crime and violence... Is he seeing something different than government statistics or does he agree with them?

Agreed, I think he is pretty much wrong. The military adopted games fairly late in the "game". It was more a cause/effect. The military adopted them BECAUSE everyone was used to playing video games, it didn't evolve the other way around.


Former military psychologist and moral reformer David Grossman argues that because the military uses games in training (including, he claims, training soldiers to shoot and kill), the generation of young people who play such games are similarly being brutalized and conditioned to be aggressive in their everyday social interactions.

Grossman's model only works if:

we remove training and education from a meaningful cultural context.
we assume learners have no conscious goals and that they show no resistance to what they are being taught.
we assume that they unwittingly apply what they learn in a fantasy environment to real world spaces.

The military uses games as part of a specific curriculum, with clearly defined goals, in a context where students actively want to learn and have a need for the information being transmitted. There are consequences for not mastering those skills. That being said, a growing body of research does suggest that games can enhance learning. In his recent book, What Video Games Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy, James Gee describes game players as active problem solvers who do not see mistakes as errors, but as opportunities for improvement. Players search for newer, better solutions to problems and challenges, he says. And they are encouraged to constantly form and test hypotheses. This research points to a fundamentally different model of how and what players learn from games.

[Darius Ferlas]

All things in moderation.

Col. Dave Grossman (who I just saw speak Tuesday) wrote a book about video games and the increase in crime numbers and violence.
I'm all for moderation but have you seen the actual numbers? They don't seem to support Col. Dave Grossman's theseis.

Violent crimes peaked roughly about the time when video games were taking hold (1980's to early 1990's), and they have shown a steady decline ever since. I looked at murder, rape and aggravated assault. I won't go as far as crediting video games for the trend, but perhaps (just a guess) potentially aggressive kids mess around with pixels on computer screens now, instead of messing around with people.

See for yourself:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[Bob Riefer]

My reason for not having video games in our household is pretty basic.. When I was growing up, that's how my folks raised us, and we were forced to be creative, have fun, build things, play sports, spend time with people etc. I'm NOTsaying it's impossible to play video games AND do those things, but the system worked great for us and I don't see any reason to change it. We excelled, valued the real things around us, and were happy. I'd like my kids to experience the same type of up bringing.

I will say though that there's a big difference between people that allow video games in moderation vs. families where multiple hours of playing per day is the norm. The former is likely fine in my point of view (though I still choose not to do that model in my family) whereas I must admit that I do not really support the latter - the majority of the 6 hour-per-day-video-game playing families that I've witnessed (in the community, while coaching, my own nieces and nephews etc. etc. etc.) are seemingly the ones where the children exhibit a host of behavioral issues ranging from ADD-like symptoms, aggression, through lethargic tendencies and poor social awareness.

[David Larsen]

I cannot say I am completely for or against the video game issue. I don't see a huge issue with it. I grew up playing video games. But, it didn't consume me. I did other things too. I feel that I know a lot about a lot of things and know how to do pretty much anything aside from video games, AND I know how to play video games too. So, I think some video game playing isn't all bad. I have one son that likes to play video games. I have another that likes to play sometimes, but can pretty easily take it or leave it.

One thing I always try to drive home with them is that IT IS NOT REAL. IN REAL LIFE YOU DIE IF YOU GET SHOT OR OTHER PEOPLE DIE IF YOU SHOOT THEM. YOU DON'T GET EXTRA LIVES. AND IF YOU WERE TO SHOOT ANOTHER PERSON THERE IS REAL LIFE CONSEQUENCES. LIFE IS FRAGILE AND NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED. Remember that video games are games. Not reality. Entertainment. That's all. (The same could be said of exposure to violent media of any kind)

How many parents actually tell their kids and teach their kids just how short and fragile their life really is? Respect life because life isn't a game.

[Matt Walton]

One thing I always try to drive home with them is that IT IS NOT REAL. IN REAL LIFE YOU DIE IF YOU GET SHOT OR OTHER PEOPLE DIE IF YOU SHOOT THEM. YOU DON'T GET EXTRA LIVES. AND IF YOU WERE TO SHOOT ANOTHER PERSON THERE IS REAL LIFE CONSEQUENCES. LIFE IS FRAGILE AND NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED. Remember that video games are games. Not reality. Entertainment. That's all. (The same could be said of exposure to violent media of any kind)
Agreed. This is one reason games have ratings on them. In my opinion, 7 year olds should not be playing M rated games, as (IMHO) their minds are still fresh, and don't completely know what is reality or fantasy. I am 16, and my parents will only think about letting me play M rated games once I turn 17 (age to buy them). Do I like the rule? No, but at this point, it isn't too far to wait (about 5 months), so I think I can live. The only time it really bugs me is when I see an advertisement for a game: "Wow, that looks awesome! Oh wait, it's rated M. Phooey."

[Neal Clayton]

well matt, from the flip side of that argument, my brother and i were allowed to watch every cheesy horror movie that came out in the 80s (and there were lots of them back then), from a young age (10-12). we didn't grow up to be axe murderers.

that said there was an obvious disconnect from reality when watching a movie or even playing a video game. back then the original nintendo was the best there was, and there was no realism there at all, it was pretty basic compared to the level of realism in games these days.

video games imo are a symptom, not a disease. the symptom of kids who seem addicted to video games and socially maladjusted is video games, but the root of the issue is lack of social interaction with others, and that's the fault of parents, not kids. kids can't go out on their own and learn how to meet people, behave in a restaurant, be polite in social gatherings, etc. it's up to parents to put kids in those situations so that kids learn those skills.

[Matt Walton]

Right. I was taking to a friend of mine one time, talking about I still can't play M games, and I believe his exact words were "Wow, really? And I thought I was sheltered" and proceeded to tell me that his parents let him play M rated games when he was about 12, but told him "The minute you start talking like them, you're loosing the games"
Just more food for thought.

[Bryan Morgan]

video games imo are a symptom, not a disease. the symptom of kids who seem addicted to video games and socially maladjusted is video games, but the root of the issue is lack of social interaction with others, and that's the fault of parents, not kids. kids can't go out on their own and learn how to meet people, behave in a restaurant, be polite in social gatherings, etc. it's up to parents to put kids in those situations so that kids learn those skills.

Thats because the media and their hyperbole driving nonsense into parents heads... Its almost as if the kids walk outside they are going to be shot, kidnapped, blown up by terrorists, grabbed by rapists, given drugs, killed by space debris, sold to gypsies, drown, etc etc etc. So when their kids stay sheltered inside all the time and eventually do something stupid video games are an easier target than looking in the mirror...

I remember watching a show about a mother who let her 8 or 9 year old kid take the subway and move around the city by himself and the only nutcases who gave him any trouble were the media brainwashed people claiming how much danger he was in! :)

[Neal Clayton]

Thats because the media and their hyperbole driving nonsense into parents heads... Its almost as if the kids walk outside they are going to be shot, kidnapped, blown up by terrorists, grabbed by rapists, given drugs, killed by space debris, sold to gypsies, drown, etc etc etc. So when their kids stay sheltered inside all the time and eventually do something stupid video games are an easier target than looking in the mirror...

I remember watching a show about a mother who let her 8 or 9 year old kid take the subway and move around the city by himself and the only nutcases who gave him any trouble were the media brainwashed people claiming how much danger he was in! :)

i saw a news story about that woman. they persistently tried to paint her as some evil person who was neglecting a child, when in fact it's everyone else that neglects theirs, she might be the only normal person she knows.

i completely agree. i'm a firm believer in the fact that the world can be whatever you perceive it to be. if a kid is raised to fear the rest of the world, he or she will carry that fear into their adult life and probably turn to all sorts of bad habits to compensate for it. that 9 year old kid will probably grow up thinking that people are generally nice and helpful (since it seemed that most contact he had with adults on the subway was people being nice and offering to help him) and wind up with a much more positive outlook about people and his surroundings.

the sad thing is, if you look at our education system, what are the things that kids participate in while growing up in school that help them with social skills? music, arts, sports, etc.

and those are the first things to go when budget constraints pop up in a school. it's really sad when you think about it. it seems like when we americans see a problem, we don't solve it, we compound it.