Ashes to Ashes

[John Keeton]

I have a friend that is a local funeral director. He had seen some of my turnings in a gallery and we discussed the possible market for cremation urns. I decided it was worth a try. Most urns I have seen are taller forms - probably to fit the niche in a mausoleum, though I have not researched that. Locally, the custom seems to be more centered on keeping the cremains in the home, so dimensions may not be as critical.

Hollowing a deep vessel is beyond the capabilities of my Monster articulated system. So, I thought I would do a wider, and more shallow prototype and see what the director thought of it.

This is Claro walnut and curly maple. The finial is curly maple, as well. The director felt that natural woods (no dye) for the first one might be best.

Pretty basic design, and while the finial is at least a third taller than I would like to see for the form, I was concerned about the fragility. Shorter means thinner! 9.75" x 9.75", with a capacity of 175 cu. in. The threads are ABS plastic.

I was pretty pleased with the process, though I do not care for the proportions necessarily. However, the director was extremely excited, and wanted to know if I could do more. I have started another of cherry that will be bottom loaded, with brass threads. I think the bottom load might permit a little better form, as I won't be as concerned with the fragility of the lid/finial.

Next on the agenda is to learn to chase threads!! I acquired some Corian scraps, and have some dry persimmon "en route". This could be fun! A little morbid - but fun!

Feel free to comment - particularly if you have any suggestions or advise regarding urns. Or, if you just want to rag on the turning!:D

[Greg Just]

Very nice John. I really like the combination of Claro walnut and curly maple. Can you explain how you did the threads? Did you use pipe fittings?

[Tim Thiebaut]

Very nice John, you might want to check with a local Vet in your area to, I know a lot of folks like to keep their pets close after they pass. Did you cut the threads with your new sorby chaser? And did you get a sheet of ABS to make the threads from or how did that come?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

It's a winner with me. I like the wood combinations, the crisp lines, pleasing form and finish.

Nicely done!

[Bernie Weishapl]

John I like your design. I really think that is a classy looking piece. I was wondering if he gave you a size for what they should be? Our funeral director and our good friend has asked me to make a couple also but doesn't know how to figure the size. She wants them all natural wood being Elm and cottonwood which I guess you would call a native tree here. I have the thread chaser but haven't tried them yet and have some genuine lignum vitae coming which they say is excellent for threading.

[Alan Trout]

John, I think the finial fits the piece very well.

Well Done.

Alan

[Pete Jordan]

Very nice John!

This tells about proportions. http://www.giftofireland.com/Articletwentyone.htm

[Scott Hackler]

John,

I have been studying ths urn for a while now. Something just doesn't fit for me (because of the pieces' intended purpose). That would be the finial. In a normal piece, marketed for the wood/turnings/art lover, the finials are a traditional topping. But in my mind a wooden cremation urn should be elegant, yet reserved... if not somewhat conservative. I would prefer a short knob type topper. Just enough for a finishing touch, but not "hey look at me". After all, the knob or finial doesn't serve any practical use on a threaded vessel.

The rest of the form is very, very nice and I believe would be well accepted my anyone looking for a final resting place for thier loved ones.

just my $ .02

[Michael Armstrong]

John:
I like the overall form of the urn but I too would like to see a shorter finial on it. Just my 2 cents worth so now with Scott's you only have $999,999.96 to go until you are a millionaire! Now get to work practicing your thread chasing:D

Michael

[David DeCristoforo]

I like the form. As you say, non-typical for an urn. I halfway agree with Scott about the finial but the other half likes it. The overall form has a "modern church architecture" feeling and the finial fits well with it.

Since we're on the subject, I have had two "hands on" experiences with cremated remains and in both cases, the ashes were sealed in a fairly heavy plastic bag with a heavy plastic "zip tie" closure. I cannot imagine getting something like that through such a small opening. Do people typically just funnel the ashes into urns?

[Robert Culver]

I like the idea of the bottom loader as long as the final didn’t get damaged in the loading of the ashes so maybe that should be made to be attached after I like your piece very nice looking.

[Steve Schlumpf]

John - I think the piece works quite well as is! The petite finial works for me as it is a monument to an individual and as such should be artistic, stand tall and point to the sky! Just my opinion - but the urn represents someone's life and as such could easily be a combination of classic and contemporary forms - depending on the person. I would think that you could offer any number of styles - fairly conservative in nature - and they would all have a market.

Best of luck with your sales with this! I also think checking in with the local veterinarian (like Tim suggested) would add to possible sales!

[Baxter Smith]

Nice combo of woods with a subdued elegance. Appropriate for the intended purpose though the finial seems a bit much in someway, though I have no new suggestions for improvement.
Nothing wrong with this style, but perhaps another "order" is in order. Just to expand your capabilities of course!;):)

[Jon Lanier]

I like it. The only question I would have as a buyer... Will that finial break if dropped and how would I get it fixed if it did break. My loved one is in there.

[Jim Adkins]

John....Nice form, the Claro/Maple combo is?? Maybe too much Maple?? Seems to me
maybe the form should have more Claro. lass Maple but what do I know about an Urn!!
Mike Mahoney makes these things by the dozens, says his biggest seller is to vets for
the cat people!! 10 to 1, the 1 being all other forms combined. "Other" being people, dogs
and an ocassional bird. Good luck with the threading. BTW, I have some very dry, very old Persimmon, abt. 5" sq. if interested, has some black streaks in it like Ebony. I'm told that Persimmon is a cousin to Ebony so there ya go.

[Harry Robinette]

Nice work as aways John.The finial question I would like it a little smaller.But my main question is are you going to sign or make a logo to put into the inside of the top.I really don't think I'd want someone signature on the bottom maybe just who's inside.As always my $.02

[Curt Fuller]

I would guess that there are as many different ideas of what an urn should look like as there are people resting in them. What Jim said is what I was also thinking when I saw it. Kind of one of those "rule of thirds" things where this one is cut somewhat down the middle both in shape and with the wood. But just because it's different than the typical urn a mortuary usually has to offer, I'll bet it will be a hit. You might offer a choice in finials for those that would like something a little more conservative too. Any ideas as to how you'll seal it?

[Roger Chandler]

Nice work on this John.......the shape is a little odd to me as an urn, but your explanation of not being able to go deep with current tools does require a different approach. The work is first rate, and I guess the "classic idea" of a form can certainly be updated to include what the turner and the funeral director think is appropriate.

The pet urn idea is one that is gaining in popularity as was noted, so you may have a double market, and have a lot to keep you busy!

[David E Keller]

I've never made an urn, but turning my own final resting place is on the 'bucket list'. I'll bet you have no trouble selling this piece, and I would imagine that tastes for cremation urns vary considerably. The pet urn thing is quite interesting to me as well.

There may also be a market for 'couples' urns... My father in law died several years ago, and he had a couple of bird dogs cremated while he was still alive. The plan, as I understand it, is to combine his remains with those of the dogs and eventually my mother in law when her time comes. That's gonna have to be a pretty big urn!

[John Keeton]

Wow, lots of great comments and suggestions! Thanks! There is no doubt the finial is much larger than I normally do, and that I would put on an art piece like this. But, being unaware of really how this thing was going to work with the threads, etc., I was a little skittish on a smaller, more delicate finial. Scott has a good comment with a knob, but with the upward movement of this piece, a knob just seems like it would truncate the piece. I hope this next one will permit a more traditional and proportional finial.

Can you explain how you did the threads? Did you use pipe fittings?Yes, Greg, they are tapered thread ABS pipe fittings.


Our funeral director and our good friend has asked me to make a couple also but doesn't know how to figure the size. Bernie, I am familiar with the cubic inch per pound formula, but that doesn't help one make a form to fit a certain size. I think it just takes practice. I really thought this one would be closer to 125 cubic inches until I actually measured it. I was pleasantly shocked at the capacity.


But in my mind a wooden cremation urn should be elegant, yet reserved... if not somewhat conservative.Scott, this was a virgin run for me on this idea. I have looked at 2-300 urns online, and nearly all of them have finials, but they appear somewhat stunted compared to the size of the form. An upright vase form that will hold 200 cu. in. is about 7" at the shoulder and about 11" tall. On those forms, I almost think a knob would be better than the stubby finials I have seen.


I like the overall form of the urn but I too would like to see a shorter finial on it. Just my 2 cents worth so now with Scott's you only have $999,999.96 to go until you are a millionaire! Now get to work practicing your thread chasing:D

MichaelMichael, I agree! Just can't make myself do a short, but thick finial and I think with the screw on lid, it needs some substance to it.


Since we're on the subject, I have had two "hands on" experiences with cremated remains and in both cases, the ashes were sealed in a fairly heavy plastic bag with a heavy plastic "zip tie" closure. I cannot imagine getting something like that through such a small opening. Do people typically just funnel the ashes into urns?David, I actually examined a couple of cremains when talking with the director. You are correct in that they are in a plastic bag, however, there is enough "slack" in the bag that it can be "snaked" through this size hole fairly easily.


I like it. The only question I would have as a buyer... Will that finial break if dropped and how would I get it fixed if it did break. My loved one is in there.Jon, I am pretty much sure that any finial would break if dropped. I guess one just hopes that it is handled carefully. In fact, given the significant weight of the cremains (they are quite heavy!) I would suspect any turned urn might fracture if dropped.


John....Nice form, the Claro/Maple combo is?? Maybe too much Maple?? Seems to me
maybe the form should have more Claro. lass Maple but what do I know about an Urn!!
Mike Mahoney makes these things by the dozens, says his biggest seller is to vets for
the cat people!! 10 to 1, the 1 being all other forms combined. "Other" being people, dogs
and an ocassional bird. Good luck with the threading. BTW, I have some very dry, very old Persimmon, abt. 5" sq. if interested, has some black streaks in it like Ebony. I'm told that Persimmon is a cousin to Ebony so there ya go.Jim, good comment on the proportions of wood. The maple really dominates this piece. I had anticipated dyeing it, but the director suggested otherwise. The next one will have better proportions, I think. Good thought on the pet urns, too, though I don't have any idea if the potential price is there - perhaps it is as most pet lovers would probably be willing to spend!


But my main question is are you going to sign or make a logo to put into the inside of the top.I really don't think I'd want someone signature on the bottom maybe just who's inside.As always my $.02Harry, very good thought! I did sign this one, but left a lot of room. My thought was to do it so that it could be lasered on the bottom with the individual's name, DOB, DOD. Inside the lid might be much better!


I would guess that there are as many different ideas of what an urn should look like as there are people resting in them. What Jim said is what I was also thinking when I saw it. Kind of one of those "rule of thirds" things where this one is cut somewhat down the middle both in shape and with the wood. But just because it's different than the typical urn a mortuary usually has to offer, I'll bet it will be a hit. You might offer a choice in finials for those that would like something a little more conservative too. Any ideas as to how you'll seal it?Curt, I do agree on the "rule of thirds" on this one. The largest diameter point is at the 1/3 point, but it is overshadowed by the light maple transition point. On sealing them, it is my understanding that threaded urns are not normally "sealed".

Again, thanks for taking the time to offer some very insightful comments!! Gives me a lot to work with on future endeavors.

[Doug W Swanson]

Great combination with the maple and walnut. The finial adds just a little elegance to it without taking it over the top.

Bravo!

[neil mackay]

I think the overall form is fine, although the straight line of the top throws me off a bit. But other wise its well executed and finished.

[Mike Cruz]

John, that looks an awful lot like a bowl... And I seem to remember you saying you aren't a bowl guy. ;)

Hey, I really like it. Walnut and maple together are my favorite combination.

I think you finally found a way to make your HFs utilitarian!

One suggestion. I know it is boring, but maybe all of them should be made primarily out of Ash. Then you could make up some clever name like Ashes in Ash or something.

[Hayes Rutherford]

John, a great job on this. Not a traditional urn but a "new and improved" one. I wouldn't worry about fragility as more than one ceramic urn has probably crashed on the hearth.

[Kathy Marshall]

Very nice John! The form is different, but I like it and the color combo works for me. The walnut is beautiful! I almost picked up a blank of claro walnut from Woodworkers Source yesterday, but my arms were already full and my bank account wasn't lol.

[Dan Forman]

John---I like it lot, and wouldn't mind ending up in there myself, though am not at all in a hurry to try it out. :)

Dan

[John Keeton]

Thanks for all the followup comments! Mike, I will have to look into the ash idea - maybe Ken has a couple of trees!!! Kathy, you would really enjoy working with the Claro walnut - beautiful stuff.

I think the overall form is fine, although the straight line of the top throws me off a bit. But other wise its well executed and finished.Neil, thanks for the comment. The top portion is actually a very slight concave surface. I do try to avoid anything flat in a turning if I can.

[Michelle Rich]

Looks like you have all the bases covered. Good luck with it. (just as a side note: I have made shaker oval boxes as urns! Just glued the tops on after the bag went inside. Folks then had a plaque made for the top. Different strokes for different folks!

[philip labre]

I like the urn , John. It's a nontaditional shape and some of us like to be different. When I made an urn for my MIL I made it too small, so I made some smaller Keepsake urns for each of the kids. Keepsakes might be something to also add to a line for people to keep a little of the ashes and spread the rest. I was also asked by the funeral director to make an urn for his dog. I guess I need to get building a hollowing rig.

[Roland Martin]

John, I may be somewhat in the minority, but I really like the finial the way it is. I'm certainly with you on the theory that if an urn gets dropped with that kind of weight inside, there will be more problems to deal with than a broken finial. This is a very nice urn, one that I would be proud to rest in, and wish you the best on this potential venture.

[Dale Bright]

John,

You have done a masterful job on this piece. It is beautiful and you have recieved a lot of good comments and advice.

You have quite a challenge here, you have to make an artful piece that is functional. It has to hold up well to being handled and also have that delicate artful look. You, the artist / craftsman will have to decide how you want the finsihed piece to look. Then the customers will dictate the final direction.

I have a good friend and turning mentor that makes a lot of cremation urns. He has stopped putting any type of tall and/or thin finial on them because of breakage. Most all of his urns are the traditional taller type. He starts with a green wood blank that is 10" tall by around 8" in diameter, roughs them out, dries them and re-turns them. These will hold the ashes of most adults.

On the Monster Articulated System hollowing deeper vessels, I have hollowed up to 11 inches deep with a very sharp cutter and very light cuts using a 3/4" bar.

Good luck with your endeavor,

Dale

[John Keeton]

Neat idea with the Shaker box urn, Michelle!! Philip, the funeral director and I discussed the keepsake urns and I do think there is some market for that, as well.

Roland, thanks for the kind words!

Dale, some great information! Available stock is an issue for me, and that was the main reason for going horizontal with this one - and, to use a glueup. I do have some green wood available, and I will need to rough out some urn forms. I think with the taller forms, one could/should use more of a knob. I do wonder about the top heavy aspect of a "shouldered" vase form filled with heavy cremains. Stability would seem to be a concern. But, on the other hand, the vast majority of urns are upright forms.

[Cathy Schaewe]

David, I actually examined a couple of cremains when talking with the director. You are correct in that they are in a plastic bag, however, there is enough "slack" in the bag that it can be "snaked" through this size hole fairly easily.



Just a comment - while there may be "slack" in human cremains bags, the remains of the pets I have had cremated (4) were packed very tightly in a heavy plastic bag with no give. So if you decide to pursue the vet end of it, you might check locally to see how they come out, as it were.