Time to upgrade to a better table saw

[Marc Myers]

Well, things are finally starting to look up a bit after a long, tiring, and often frustrating, economic downturn. After a few years of suffering with the masses, I finally have squeezed together enough pennies to entertain the thought of a new table saw. I've read hundreds of reviews, SC post, and done countless google searches in trying to make an educated choice. A nice cabinet saw (Grizzly 690 would be my first choice) would be stretching the budget to it's outer limits with the saw and need for 220v service in my shop. So in trying to upgrade from a 10+ yr old Delta 36-600 contractors saw, a hybrid seems like a nice choice. My issue is wether I would notice any difference at all between a 1.5hp motor and the 2hp motor in a hybrid? Grizzly G0715P gets nice reviews, but is it enough to make a noticeable difference? The thing I like best about this one is the closed base for dust collection. Jet hybrids are open based like I have now. The other issue is space. Hybrids take up a little less room in LxW so they would fit better where my current table saw (on a mobile base) sits when stored. Any saw by todays standards would be an upgrade over what I've got...better fence, table, and other bells and whistles. I know the general population will tell me to overspend on a table saw and want me to bite the bullet for the 690, but has anyone ever used 1.5hp saw then moved over to a 2hp saw and noticed any difference? Is there another saw that I should consider looking at considering I've looked at offerings from Grizzly, Delta, Powermatic, Steel City and Shop Fox?

[Mike Schuch]

If I were you I would buy a premium fence for your contractors saw and call it good. Unless there is some place your contractors saw is falling short?

[David Kumm]

Marc, I apologize for not answering your real question, but used saws have never been cheaper than they are now. The difference between a hybrid and a cabinet saw is more about structure than motor. At least take a look at woodweb, CL or even a good machinery dealer, if you don't see anything go back to new but check the amp draw of the motors. That will tell you alot about the difference in power. Motors of similar hp may be totally different because lighter saws are often marketed with misleading motor info. Dave

[Chris Tsutsui]

I went from a jobsite bosch saw 4000 series to a 3HP cabinet saw. I found a Grizzly 1023SLX on craiglist for $400 and it was in good condition.

The bosch saw was lower in power, louder and more vibration. You could feel the saw cutting through the wood and change in pitch with the bosch.

The Grizzly 3HP cabinet saw made it almost effortless to push the wood through the blade, and it passed the nickel test and the shop fox fence was beefier and a pleasure to work with. I just had more confidence with a heavy cast iron top for my bosch could easily tip over when handling big enough sheet goods.

I recommend looking in the used market or just go with a new grizzly cabinet saw for they offer a fairly unbeatable bang per buck. Or better yet... used grizzly cabinet saw. :)

[scott spencer]

Your 36-600 is a compact saw with a 15 amp universal motor, 22" deep x 38" wide correct? I switched from a 36-600 to a GI 50-185 2hp contractor saw, to a 1.75 Craftsman 22124 hybrid, then to a 3hp Shop Fox cabinet saw. There's so much more involved than just power in even the jump from the 36-600 to the 50-185...operating space in front of the blade, weight, fence, noise level, etc. The change from a 2hp contractor to a 1.75hp hybrid didn't reveal much difference in power....if anything, the 1.75hp saw seemed to rip faster, but I suspect that better alignment was also a factor. There was a significant difference in weight between the 50-185 and the 22124...300# vs 425#, and the added mass was noticeable in stability.

If you can swing the budget, no doubt a 3hp cabinet saw has the upper hand in power, performance, and longevity, but my hybrid was plenty capable too, and was a pleasure to use....with good alignment and good blade choice, there was nothing that it struggled much to cut. In addition to the G715P, I'd add the Steel City 35925 and Craftsman 22116 (by Steel City/Orion) to your list (goes on sale in the low $700's occasionally). Woodwerks.com has the 35925 on sale for $676...pretty sweet deal if they still have them. General International has some nice hybrid choices too.

[Marc Myers]

I wouldn't say the contractors saw is falling short, just time to think about something else that I could get better results from. Even 10 yrs ago, the 36-600 was an entry level contractors saw. By todays standards, it's still superior to the Shopmaster line. The motor died about a year ago and it was $225 to replace it. I couldn't swing a new saw at that time so I fixed it. I've been offered $250 for it when I'm ready to sell it, so I'm thinking I get my money back out of the repair at least. For the years I've had it, what I paid for it, and what I've done with it, I can't complain. I guess I just feel like celebrating a bit with a new toy! Everything that Scott Spencer writes is completely accurate, (power, weight, vibration, noise, stablity, dust collection, etc etc etc) and those are the reasons I'd like to upgrade. Grizzly has a great reputation, excellent customer service, and a great value for their tools. I even would consider the 1023. The motor is a 3hp like the 690, but in a smaller table size and overall size like the 715. It might actually be a smarter choice since the 1023 has optional extentions that I could add in the future if needed. As for CL, I've looked long and hard there too, but a lot of what I find is rusted junk. Besides, if it's a treat for myself...why not go with shiny and new? My fear is because there are not a lot of places left to really get a good look at larger tools, you're left with online photos and reviews. Pick one and have it drop shipped to your door. I'm kind of terrified that I'm going to be into a new saw for 1000 bucks, get it all together, come to the conclusion that it's too similar to what I have and wish I bought something else. I'd much rather be into it for $1200 and be happy with what I've got. That being said, I still think the 715 would be a significant improvement over the 36-600, I just want to gauge somehow how far I really want or need to go on the way up. That's whats great about SC, you get good, accurate and smart feedback.

[Stephen Cherry]

I know the general population will tell me to overspend on a table saw and want me to bite the bullet for the 690, but has anyone ever used 1.5hp saw then moved over to a 2hp saw and noticed any difference? Is there another saw that I should consider looking at considering I've looked at offerings from Grizzly, Delta, Powermatic, Steel City and Shop Fox?

I would get a hobbyist owned Delta Unisaw, or Powermatic 66, used of course. Target price, $900. And guess what, it will be worth that 5, 10, 20 years from now. You need to look at fleabay, and craigslist EVERY DAY, or even hourly, for as long as it takes. If you see a saw you like, offer the 900 dollars by email, include your name and phone number, and explain that this is all that you can afford to pay. I've bought and sold a pristine unisaw for 900 dollars. And have seen powermatic 66's for similar money. No need for an ex commercial machine- there are enough hobby table saws out there. For personal reasons of conscience having to do with sale of human organs from living donors, I wouldn't even consider some of the imports.

[Joseph Tarantino]

....I'm kind of terrified that I'm going to be into a new saw for 1000 bucks, get it all together, come to the conclusion that it's too similar to what I have and wish I bought something else......

the 715p (and the grizzly cabinets you noted) would give you the following advantages: riving knife, cast iron extension wings, improved dust collection, one piece rail system with heavier duty fence, left tilt blade bevel, more powerful motor (admittedly a small power boost for the 715p) and more weight for smoother operation.

i have a ridgid 2412, which, like your saw, was an entry level 10" contractor saw built by emerson electric. i recently cobbled together a c-man 10" contrctor saw, also built by emerson electric, but the table and trunion asembly were from an emerson saw that was older than my ridgid and were more "substantial". i aso gave the c-man solid CI wings, as opposed to the webbed CI wings of the ridgid. the older c-man runs smoother than the ridgid, greatly attributable to the increased mass.

although i don't have the 715p, my own experience with greater mass makes me believe you will notice a substantial difference between your delta and something like the 715p. i did when i removed the stamped steel wings from my ridgid and replaced them with webbed CI.

and getting a grizzly will keep you from overpaying for an overvalued jet or powermatic, which never get rated as top tools in comparative tool tests, despite their premium pricing.

[Don Jarvie]

Don't let 220 stop you. If you want to get bigger tools your going to have to get a few 220 lines in the shop.

[Greg Peterson]

Getting 220 to his shop may or may not be an expensive proposition.

One thing to consider about used cabinet saws is that it is very unlikely any of them will have a riving knife. And ten years from now a non-riving knife cabinet saw will be going for a song and a dance. And if the big boys ever incorporate a braking device on the blade, expect the price on used cabinet saws to drop further.

I have a Ridgid R4511. It's 1.5 HP motor seems underpowered to me, but it runs circles around my old Craftsman contractor saw. The riving knife and DC on the R4511 are worth the price of admission, IMO.

New or used, a TS without a riving knife is a non-starter in my book. Left tilt, 1.5hp vs 2 hp, fence, mobility are features that have wiggle room.

[Marc Myers]

You are correct about the riving knife and the future of table saws. Its a small part of the reason why I feel like it's a good time to part with my Delta. However, power supply is a issue. I only have 100 amp service in the entire house. The only available 220 lines go to the furnace and stove. I maxed out the box, and installed a subpanel, last year when I added the garage and moved things out of the basement into there. That created the space I needed. A 220 is just not a option for me as it would require changing the electrical panel to a 200 amp service. Not something I want to do since I plan to build a new house and shop in a few years. I'm even starting to question the hybrid saw...not sure wether or not I can even power that effectively. All the breakers that are tied into the basement are 15 amps. I've never had an issue running anything, but then again, I've not tried to run anything as big as the G0715. That saw is listed as a 16 amp draw when powered to a 110v setup. The largest tool I've run to date is my Jet 1642 lathe which is listed at 18 amps. I don't think its an issue, but I need to look closer at it and see what's up. Not sure if I can safely run this table saw off a 14/3 line on a 15amp breaker. Hate to buy the thing and find out I trip the breaker every time I turn it on. Why can't anything ever be easy!!??

[scott spencer]

You can add an aftermarket riving knife called a ************ to many older saws. It raises, lowers, and tilts with the blade, and sits in close proximity to the blade.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/RT/****014-2-1-1.jpg http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/RT/rt001-1.jpg

[David Kumm]

Marc, If there is any way to run one 20 or 30 amp 220 line to your shop, you should. Going to 220 on any machine you can wire that way will use up less of your available amperage than stuff wired 110. Not only does 110 double the amperage and send it to ground-or neutral, it is inefficient relative to the amps you use up. If that is not an option and you are going to build in the future, I would save the money for the new saw to get to the house sooner. When you get more power all your tools will seem inadequate and you will want to replace. Dave

[Kevin Womer]

I had a Delta Contractors and was happy with it as long as I didn't have to cut anything over 1 inch thick and didn't need to bevel the blade. I just got frustrated with the accuracy after beveling and bringing the blade back to 90 degrees. I upgraded to a 3 hp steel city 35905 and am totally satisfied with the fence, riving knife, accuracy and the power. I didn't notice it until I used a 3 hp motor how much of a difference it makes. It is much eaasier to align than a contractors saw, and stays that way if the need arises to bevel something. Something I didn't realize is that dust collection is way better than a contractors saw, and after adding a shark guard I am extremely pleased with the results. I actually use the blade guard now because it and the riving knife come off without the use of tools and takes a few seconds. There are many saws out there in this price range, (I paid about $1,300 and got a free forrest WWII with it) and they are all pretty similar (minus Saw Stop, PM 2000/66, and the new UNI) except for the color, and they would all serve a hobbiest well for many years. I thought about a hybrid myself, and many will argue the Steel City is a hybrid too, but I can testify that I have purchased a better quality saw that performs as well as I had hoped it would and more. In the end you have to get what makes you happy, and that's all that counts. Best Wishes.

[Prashun Patel]

I moved from a small hybrid (Delta Shopmaster) to a Jet Hybrid (Proshop) to a 3hp cabinet saw (Sawstop).

IMHO, the only reason to go for a hybrid is if getting 220v is out of the question, or your budget is hard pinned under $1000 and you cannot fin d the right used cabinet saw.

The Jet Proshop was powerful enough for most operations. It struggled a little ripping thick stock - but that was remedied by using better, thinner, ripping blades. The Proshop did have an enclosed base for good dust collection.

Apart from the blade brake, I do feel safer doing thicker cuts on my 3hp saw. It never struggles.

[Rich Engelhardt]

1.5hp tp 2hp doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
1.5hp to 3hp seems a lot more reasonable.

Since you plan on moving in a fairly short period of time, why not just let the "saw fund" build until then?

P.S. - I'd still scan the new and used market on a daily basis for that "killer deal".

[Carl Beckett]

Hi Marc,

I have went through a progression, as my skills, funds, and space allowed.

I started out with a low end Jet contractor saw. Stamped steel wings, etc. (sounds like about the level you may be at now)

Then upgraded to a contractors saw with cast iron wings, and a better fence. I also put a flex belt on this saw and rewired it to run on 220 instead of 110, hoping the lower current would cause less loss and thus more effective power. Finally, I turned/trued the arbor and put a very nice thin kerf blade on. This thing ran as smooth as any cabinet saw at that point.

Then many years later, I upgrade to a full blown cabinet saw (I use the 26" fence due to space limitations, and this gets me by just fine.

The biggest difference was in upgrading my contractors saw. In fact, at the end of the day there isnt all that much difference between my upgraded contractors saw and my cabinet saw. Sure there is a very occasional time when I am doing an extremely deep cuts where the extra power is nice, but with some setup I could always get the job done on the contractor saw.

So obviously I am advocating a nicely tuned and setup contractor saw. I am in a situation where budget IS a consideration and am sensitive that not everyone can spend lots of money on tools. You could go a used contractor saw and use a little money to upgrade it, and have a great tool and some $$ leftover for wood, hand tools, college, or a nice necklace for the wife unit......

:)

[jonathan eagle]

I agree with the posting, about going from 1.5-2hp, not worth it. Often forgotten on buying old and used, is the inferior safety technology. On the newer saws you get extra safety features.
By the way, I always laugh when I hear talk about the resale value. Are we worried our wives are not going to be able to cash in, when we're gone? We all know our wives have no idea what the tools are worth and will just unload them! :)

[Marc Myers]

I certainly understand everyone's point. The reason to upgrade now is that my thought process would be to spend the $1000-$1200 now and get it out of the way. I know I'm going to be getting into it pretty deep when I move, so I'm trying to get a few things checked off the list beforehand. The 'new saw fund' might inadvertantly get spent elsewhere. That is part of the reason why the hybrids seem like a good option. Heavier saw, safety features, less vibration, etc. It's not so much the power that I'm looking for, just a better quality tool with better features that can produce better results. Wire it for 110 now and just swap it over to 220 when I can. It is just the progression thing as Carl mentioned. Not to toot my own horn, but at the ripe old age of 31 I like to think I've done pretty well setting up a shop with good quality tools and doing what I can to improve my skills. As for the wife, I'm just a humble single boy so I'll just spend the necklace money on an Incra miter gauge instead! Or possible take a workshop at the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship up in Maine...that would be even better!! Now I just have to wait for Grizzly customer service to get back to me and tell me if I really need a 20 amp breaker for their hybrid. I will throw this out there...I do check CL regularly but if anyone finds a killer deal on a table saw in the NH area, shoot me a message so I can check it out. I'd appreciate it!! And on another note, I did learn that Grizzly is planning a big spring sale starting May 14. They won't tell me what will be on sale or how big a discount, but they 'strongly recommended' I sit tight for a few more weeks and take a look at the sale items. Who knows, they might be planning a deal on a new saw that I just can't beat even buying used.

[Carl Beckett]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300548610678